Everyone's got advice, but where's the validation?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi good people,

Having a tough moment. The moving trailer arrived early, because of snow, and seeing it in the driveway is definitely a shock to my senses. Today is also her birthday. She hates birthdays, but I've always managed to find some way to celebrate her without making it too "birthday-like."

We aren't in no contact and nothing was established in terms of contact between us. There are logistical things that need to be talked about as I move out (the house is in her name) and last week she responded promptly. This weekend though, I sent a logistics email that she just didn't respond to at all, when she's typically responded within an hour. I shrugged it off, and figured we're probably just entering another stage here - maybe the silent treatment? Today, I sent her a very brief and friendly happy birthday email - nothing too personal, but nothing cold. It felt wrong to not acknowledge her birthday, so I resolved to send something kind but not overbearing. I have a feeling that I won't get a response to that either.

Her behavior is what it is - at this point, I've learned that trying to predict her or understand her is basically futile and I've been focusing on my own recovery. Still, that doesn't mean that there aren't moments that hit me hard. Just because I have myself aimed in the right direction, doesn't mean that I don't sometimes resent this path or that I don't struggle with it. I expected this week to be hard with the move, and hey, here we are - there are some crappy as heck moments with some really tough emotions coming up. I'm also falling behind on one of my jobs and getting daily emails about it and while I'm doing my best to catch up (and will catch up), I kind of just want to scream.

Here's the problem I'm having trouble solving: I'm getting really tired of the people in my life who only have advice and can't seem to validate anything. My FOO is especially in this category, which freaks me out since I'm moving back to be closer to them. It's like I've wasted up any empathy or sympathy someone might have and they just want to tell me what to do. "You just need to x" or "I know it's against who you are, but just do y and it will be ok." It doesn't matter how much I model validation to them, they just can't seem to do it. I'm almost at the point where I want to say "Hey, I'm not looking for advice, I'm looking for support and some validation here. Can you cut it out?"

Anyone else deal with this? I know it's why a lot of us come here, but how do you handle these moments? Have you ever called someone out or asked for what you need from people, even if you're not sure they can give it to you?

It's like everyone just expects me to be ok and I'm staring at them wide-eyed like you guys are just as crazy as the situation I'm trying to get away from! Also, my family seems to think there are two ways to be in the world - totally fine or totally messed up. Being somewhere in between is a damn mystery to them.
 

[lighthouse9]

Hi good people,

Having a tough moment. The moving trailer arrived early, because of snow, and seeing it in the driveway is definitely a shock to my senses. Today is also her birthday. She hates birthdays, but I've always managed to find some way to celebrate her without making it too "birthday-like."

We aren't in no contact and nothing was established in terms of contact between us. There are logistical things that need to be talked about as I move out (the house is in her name) and last week she responded promptly. This weekend though, I sent a logistics email that she just didn't respond to at all, when she's typically responded within an hour. I shrugged it off, and figured we're probably just entering another stage here - maybe the silent treatment? Today, I sent her a very brief and friendly happy birthday email - nothing too personal, but nothing cold. It felt wrong to not acknowledge her birthday, so I resolved to send something kind but not overbearing. I have a feeling that I won't get a response to that either.

Her behavior is what it is - at this point, I've learned that trying to predict her or understand her is basically futile and I've been focusing on my own recovery. Still, that doesn't mean that there aren't moments that hit me hard. Just because I have myself aimed in the right direction, doesn't mean that I don't sometimes resent this path or that I don't struggle with it. I expected this week to be hard with the move, and hey, here we are - there are some crappy as heck moments with some really tough emotions coming up. I'm also falling behind on one of my jobs and getting daily emails about it and while I'm doing my best to catch up (and will catch up), I kind of just want to scream.

Here's the problem I'm having trouble solving: I'm getting really tired of the people in my life who only have advice and can't seem to validate anything. My FOO is especially in this category, which freaks me out since I'm moving back to be closer to them. It's like I've wasted up any empathy or sympathy someone might have and they just want to tell me what to do. "You just need to x" or "I know it's against who you are, but just do y and it will be ok." It doesn't matter how much I model validation to them, they just can't seem to do it. I'm almost at the point where I want to say "Hey, I'm not looking for advice, I'm looking for support and some validation here. Can you cut it out?"

Anyone else deal with this? I know it's why a lot of us come here, but how do you handle these moments? Have you ever called someone out or asked for what you need from people, even if you're not sure they can give it to you?

It's like everyone just expects me to be ok and I'm staring at them wide-eyed like you guys are just as crazy as the situation I'm trying to get away from! Also, my family seems to think there are two ways to be in the world - totally fine or totally messed up. Being somewhere in between is a damn mystery to them.
 

[Starfire]

Yes, I've been in that situation, and yes, I asked for what I needed.  I said something very similar to "Can you cut it out?"  Your needs are important, and it's okay for you to express them so that people who care about you can choose whether or not they have the tools/patience/compassion/desire to help you.  They may tell you to shove off, or they may give you the validation you're looking for. 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey lighthouse9, I suspect this is a common problem for us Nons.  For one thing, many people don't get it when it comes to BPD, because it is so far out of their realm of experience.  As a result, they end up offering advice about relationships they've been in, which is often inapplicable to the reality of BPD.  Another aspect that I've observed with my FOO is that some people -- one sibling in particular -- lack empathy.  My sib loves to offer me tips from his toolbox that are usually impractical for me.  He means well, but is unable to validate.  It's OK and now I turn to other family members when I'm in need of validation.

LuckyJim

[lighthouse9]

Thanks guys - your validation is helpful haha!

One thing that just occurred to me when writing this out a bit more somewhere else is that with this person in particular (and some others in my FOO), the idea that I'm either 100% ok or 100% not ok does the work of keeping me in the drama triangle. When I'm 100% ok, I'm this person's rescuer. When I'm 100% not ok, I'm the victim (and they can rescue). I'm learning though, that I'm never really 100% anything (no one is, in my opinion) and that I'm often pushed into one of these roles or someone makes a bid to put me in one of these roles, and I somehow consent without knowing it. Seeing this is really helpful, because I'm definitely working really hard to break out of the triangle in all aspects of my life. If I hear from this person later, I'm going to talk about this with her, and ask for what I need. I think the drama triangle makes it really easy for us to think we can't ask for what we need. If we don't get it, oh well.

[steelwork]

Hi lighthouse9,

I'm almost at the point where I want to say "Hey, I'm not looking for advice, I'm looking for support and some validation here. Can you cut it out?"

This is actually a totally reasonable and sane thing to say. (Though I might eliminate the last sentence.)

In fact, I've learned to do the reverse. My sister's daughter is diagnosed with BPD, and many was the fight we got into at one time because I kept giving unwanted advice about specific situations when she just needed to unload. I've learned to ask her, ":)o you want advice from me or just for me to listen?" Usually she just wants an ear, and I give her that. Once in a while, she actually does want ideas.

[lighthouse9]

Thanks Steelwork - and it's great to hear you acknowledging how you had to learn that yourself. I definitely have had to learn it, too, and it's like a knife in the back because I can see all the ways I invalidated my STBXw by doing things I thought were perfectly normal, aka learned from my family. Now that I'm learning validation, I get it. We don't always need a fix - just an ear. Right now, I could definitely use an ear - and definitely don't need some of the pseudo-shaming tactics my family seems to be reallllly good at. They also tend to just ignore me when I bring up something that's bothering me. I'm done with it. Things will definitely get interesting when I move this weekend. Everyone seems to think that I'll magically be ok once I'm out of the house. Ummm hellloo... .you all do realize that I just cut out almost everything related to my marriage and that's a prettttty big deal right?

I just talked to my mom and I said "Yeah, the moving truck is here and it makes me pretty sad." Her response? "We just have to get you into your new place and moving forward."

Cool. thanks.

[steelwork]

I get it. Family can really let you down.

Here's just one of many things my mother has said to me: I asked her if she had ever felt proud of me, and she said, "Why should I take credit for your accomplishments?" She's also on record as saying that she thinks love is just something people say--that it doesn't really exist. Wut?

The lesson for me: She's old, and she's not going to change now. Reduce expectations to almost nothing, and then we can have a nice evening assembling a jigsaw puzzle and not talking about anything too emotional.

Is there anyone you CAN get validation from--possibly someone not related to you?

[Skip]

This weekend though, I sent a logistics email that she just didn't respond to at all, when she's typically responded within an hour. I shrugged it off, and figured we're probably just entering another stage here - maybe the silent treatment? Today, I sent her a very brief and friendly happy birthday email - nothing too personal, but nothing cold. It felt wrong to not acknowledge her birthday, so I resolved to send something kind but not overbearing. I have a feeling that I won't get a response to that either.

This is a very difficult time in a breakup. To some extent, she is most likely being over cautious not to send any mixed /positive message and dealing with her guilt about this, and you are trying to salvage what you can and are struggling to read her actions. It's a messy and painful time.

This stuff really hurts. We're here to walk with you.

[lighthouse9]

Thanks so much Skip - I'm trying my hardest not to read into her behavior. She did respond eventually, and was equally friendly and finally addressed the logistics stuff from over the weekend.

I think the thing that is really haunting me is the recent revelation with my therapist that we could be in the throes of a manic episode and that there IS a chance she comes out of this and wants to reconcile. It doesn't change my resolve that I would only reconcile under very specific conditions, but I won't lie, it gives me some hope.

Then I sit back and think what the hell? I'm hoping that she's bipolar? What kind of thing is that to hope for a person? I bet other members have been here - because being BP for some reason gives some explanation for the sudden change that feels different than the BPD or NPD devalue and discard. In my case, the BPD traits are there and she's admitted to them. My therapist thinks it is both - and oh my, what an uphill battle she is going to have (and has had) - and I would have, too, if we did reconcile.

Regardless of what is going on, I know that I can only work with what is right in front of me, which is all kinds of evidence that she's not here and doesn't want this, even if that's temporary. I keep trying to remember what lots of people have said - no matter how much I hurt, there's a pretty good chance that she is realllllly suffering inside. Projecting my hurt onto her right now does nothing for either one of us.

And, no matter how many times I might think "Am I just an idiot and she just had to cut and run like this for her own good?" I remember that even if that were true, no one cuts and runs quite like this and can legitimately call themselves healthy. It's eyebrow raising, at the least. There's some validation in knowing that this isn't normal and therefore whatever I'm feeling is fine.

One thing is certain though - I'm definitely not going to take on shame from my family for this stuff hurting. They can think what they want. They didn't decide to marry her and they don't get to decide how this stuff goes, too.

[Harley Quinn]

I've learned that trying to predict her or understand her is basically futile and I've been focusing on my own recovery. Still, that doesn't mean that there aren't moments that hit me hard. Just because I have myself aimed in the right direction, doesn't mean that I don't sometimes resent this path or that I don't struggle with it.

lh9, I know exactly what you mean.  It can be very frustrating when others see us soldiering on and think that means we're now suddenly OK.  There are times when soldiering is just too much and we need our wounds tended.  I'm so sorry that you're faced with such a hugely painful change in your life.  It must feel very final to be leaving your home and your memories behind.     

My own family have been exemplary at brushing things under the rug my whole life, so I feel for you when it comes to their approach.  Living in the UK we have this old school affliction still trying to force it's way through the generations, called 'stiff upper lip' and I'm afraid my parents are carriers.  Luckily I have friends who I can turn to and I am now selective about what I discuss with my family.  If I decide to push the boat out and open up I manage my own expectations and have learned to not take it personally when they are unable to connect on that level.  That part takes practise... . How much time do you plan to spend with them after the move?  I do think that asking for what you need is a really good plan.  

Love and light x    

[lighthouse9]

HQ - thank you so much for this - your response really resonated with me, and I have to say, the love I'm getting here is really filling that void. It does feel very final to be leaving the house and memories behind, but I reminded myself this morning that the difference between inconvenience and permanence is your nerve and boundaries. This move is really inconvenient, but it's not necessarily permanent. I'm shutting lots of doors, but not all of them. The ones that are open are heavily guarded. My nerve is fried, but holding up. In other words, I'm working really hard to not catastrophize things.

Your family affliction of "stiff upper lip" is very similar to one my family has - and I'd list it out, but it would be way too identifying. Basically, same idea - it's a "deal with it" kind of attitude. The thing is, no matter how much you deal with it, there's still something else you could be dealing with better, so there's really no winning the deal with it game. My dad even took it as far to suggest I get physically violent with my STBXw if she were to threaten me physically. He's done this before. He takes so much pride in my old athletic career that he thinks it's something to be proud of that I could "take" just about anyone. In reality, I've never actually thrown a punch that wasn't at a heavy bag (or a wall a few times, hence owning the heavy bag) and when exes (not my current, she's very nonviolent) have gotten physical with me I've never gotten physical back. It's not in my nature to hurt someone. However, I am scoping out some self-defense/fighting classes so I can get out some of my aggression and make myself feel a little bit safer. I don't ever expect physical abuse from my STBXw, but the PTSD from a past experience with another ex makes me feel vulnerable in a way that does make me feel paranoid occasionally. When I feel fit, strong, and ready, I feel less paranoid. Also, I'm a little concerned about what happens when I'm no longer doing the physical labor of packing and moving with all of my free time. I'll definitely need to have a physical substitute so I don't lose it.

I could be with my family for up to a week after the move, but I get the keys to my place within a day or two of moving. If things get too bad, I'm taking my sleeping bag to the new place and camping out until my stuff arrives haha. They won't like it, but they can't stop me.

I like what you said about it taking practice to manage expectations and not take things personally. I've practiced this a ton, up until now, but this new crisis has meant adjusting to new expectations and learning to take even less personally. I think one of the challenges is that I'm in high alert mode, on top of the fact that I'm also in "high learning" mode. AKA, I see maladaptive stuff everywhere in an effort to rescue myself from bad habits in my relationship with my STBXw. I have to remember that people don't think about this stuff nearly as much as I am in the moment. I'll also try to be more selective with what I share.

I'm teaching online on top of my full time job right now, so the other reality is that I really don't have time for much right now and that I'll probably have to escape often to keep up with my work.

Thanks again HQ - your support was much needed and much appreciated.

[JNChell]

Hi lighthouse9!

Having no one, for the most part, to spill this stuff to is hard. I think it contributes to our uncertainty of “am I the crazy one?” stuff. I’m starting to dislike the “crazy” label, but I think you know where I’m coming from.

Validation is so important in life. Not just the BPD life. Not being validated leads to assumptions. It can leave us confused and unsure in a healthy dynamic. It can lead us to question our own sanity when played out in an unhealthy dynamic. This can become chronic. Assumptions can become dangerous. 

In my short time here, one thing I’ve learned is that we have to subtly vet who we decide to bring close to our situation, experience and pain. This doesn’t mean shutting anyone out that doesn’t understand where you’re coming from. What I’m saying is “Who gets it, and who can I take this to?” We can’t force someone to try on our shoes if they don’t fit.

I’ve been struggling with this lighthouse9. Of course, we have bpdfamily and always will. Many of us have our T’s, but at the end of every hard earned day, who is really responsible for our personal validation?

[lighthouse9]

Thanks JNChell - I really appreciate your perspective on this.

I agree - not having people to talk to about this, or not having people who "get it" definitely contributes to the crazy making. Part of me learning about boundaries has been learning what I let in from other people, because usually, they're not trying to do anything. They just might be bored, sick of hearing about it, feel helpless, or something else that's pretty benign.

I agree about subtly vetting who we bring close. I've found that a lot of people have come out of the woodwork to support me, people who I've previously either cut off or let stray. Some of those people, I've learned recently, were cut off or I let them stray for a reason. Letting them in on my struggles at first felt like support, then quickly devolved into something not ok. It was tempting to have their support, but the longer this draws out, the more I'm ok with getting through most of the hard moments myself. Today wasn't that day, and I was let down, but you all picked me up and I take this as a win for self-advocacy.

Who is really responsible for our personal validation? We are. That's not to say that we should do everything ourselves, but I really am working towards being a heck of a lot more self-sufficient. I always was before this relationship, but my STBXw was a master at subtly taking agency away. It wasn't sinister by any means, she just didn't know how to be in a relationship without being the caretaker, a flea she picked up from being raised by a uBPD mom. Not being the caretaker meant not being in control, so I became kind of pathetic in the relationship and almost unrecognizable to myself at times. Never again. I've picked up my self-sufficiency again, and am really looking forward to more of it once I get out of this house/community.

[lighthouse9]

I swear if I hear the words "this is the harsh reality" one more time from someone I'm going to lose my mind.

Do people really think we have no idea what kind of harsh reality we are facing? That we haven't been living it for a very long time?

Here's another one: when someone says "I'm worried about you" what are you supposed to say? In my family, I feel like those are words that mean "stop telling me about your pain." Aka share something with me, and I'm going to look at you like you're overreacting and possibly need to be carted off to the hospital.

I get those reactions to text messages  like "I hate this" sent in normal context to a normal thing to hate related to my situation. I'm responded to with "I worry about you" or "this is your harsh reality and you'll come out ok."

Here's the thing I think that bothers me the most: it's like my family is willing me to develop some kind of mental illness regarding this situation. No one seems to get it that being upset time to time is actually really freaking healthy. They want me to avoid or stuff it down or just soldier on when I might not be in a place to do it time to time. Give me 5-10 minutes and I will pull it together, I'll use my skills for distress tolerance, and things will be ok. But Jesus do I need to learn to walk away from the invalidation and not take the bid.

Does anyone else get really unhealthy advice?