How do you reply to the “That’s Bull ” Accusations

[ClingToHope]

I am reading and reading and reading  to learn how to reply mindfully to diffuse distract acknowledge ... .yada yada
I am bitting my tongue and internally fighting with myself not to get defensive and argue back.

When he feels I’ve wronged him I try to acknowledge that he’s feeling that way and make sure not to say those feelings are wrong but when I clarify to him what my intent was or my perspective
He will often reply aggressively with “that’s bull crap”
And rant for an hour or a few days on why I am wrong and what I was really doing.
It’s very hard not to engage in a back and forth.
But his ranting is wearing on me

How to I reply to the statement without coming across defensive.

And yes I practice delivering statements with no tone of voice or emotion I’m getting a bit better at that

Please help

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[Tattered Heart]

The key to not getting the push back when you try to explain yourself is to not explain yourself.

We have a phrase around here called Don't JADE . This means Don't Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain. You can validate everything perfectly, but as soon as you start to JADE after validating, it takes everything you just did and throws it out the window.

":)on't JADE" goes against every instinct we have. We want to let our side of the story be known. That's only fair right? To someone with BPD though, when you try to explain yourself it is invalidating to the person. It tells them that you are not understanding them or at times listening to them.

Don't JADE was the first communication tool I began using. And I saw almost immediate results. He stopped ranting at me for petty things. By practicing Don't JADE I took all the fuel out of his fire because he had nothing to base his accusations on except his own feelings, which I already addressed when validating.

Can you share the specific scenario your talking about? We can help you work out how to respond without JADEing.

[ClingToHope]

Thank you for the reply tattered heart.

I have been working on not justifying ect.
I have read tho that if there is a kernal if truth in his issue you should acknowledge that without defending yourself
I thought that was what I was doing.
It’s a long story so I will give a real short version and look forward to the feedback.

Ongoing issue with my daughter and husband (not her father) so while I get her anxiety under control with therapy he remains scarce
She was supposed to go to her dads for the week but had an attack so came back Sunday instead of Friday
My husband was understandably looking forward to a week without hiding but he also knows my kids are my priority above all else till they are 18 so knew he wouldn’t get his week.
I had said we would take Wednesday evening for us and my daughter would have to make do since she was changing her plans (which is a boundary thing with her we are working on)
He was thankful for that
Once I was able to speak with her I found out she made plans to try again at her dads and would be leaving this Thursday till Sunday (she was supposed to be at my house)
I was excited at the thought of a hassle free weekend not having to juggle both of their needs so I told her I’d hang with her mon tue wed since she’d be gone thurs and so on
I did not check with my husband that it was ok, to me it was logical to switch the Wednesday for Thursday and then we got the bonus days

Well that’s not how he looked at it
And ranted that I broke my word and accommodated her change of plans once again when I said I wouldn’t (which is an extreme interpretation of the boundary I was working on with my daughter )
That he was pushed aside and forgotten about (he has huge abandonment stuff)
And on it went

I didn’t address the accusations or insults (liar unreliable ect)
I acknowledge that I could see why he felt forgotten and that I was sorry he felt that way
I told him what my perspective was
That’s when he cried bull crap
And went on to accuse me and threaten never to trust me again and that he has to shut down cause no one cares for him ect

He also started swearing so I told him I was done until he stopped swearing (one of the boundaries I am trying to establish)
He took a tantrum on that for awhile with texts which I never replied to
And then went on to text about the injustice
By the time I got home he was pouting like a child (my heart broke)
And we did not discuss again

This morning I got a short text about his concern but not like a rant so I replied with I will be more mindful on schedule changes

He replied I’ll believe it when I see it
I did not reply
Now it’s regular chat

Ok so that’s a really short  version

Thanks for any advice

[Tattered Heart]

I didn’t address the accusations or insults (liar unreliable ect)
I acknowledge that I could see why he felt forgotten and that I was sorry he felt that way
I told him what my perspective was
That’s when he cried bull crap
And went on to accuse me and threaten never to trust me again and that he has to shut down cause no one cares for him ect

I replied with I will be more mindful on schedule changes

OK I can see what's going on a little more. Looks like you are really close to wording things. My suggestion would be to not go into your perspective part. It seems like that is where things started to off the rails? So right after you validate that you can see how he could see how he felt forgotten and that you feel sorry for how he feels, just add on the part that says "I'll be more mindful on schedule changes." This resolves his fear of the same things happening in the future. Does that make sense?

It's a lot of quick thinking but with practice it starts to become second nature.

He also started swearing so I told him I was done until he stopped swearing (one of the boundaries I am trying to establish)
He took a tantrum on that for awhile with texts which I never replied to
And then went on to text about the injustice
By the time I got home he was pouting like a child (my heart broke)
And we did not discuss again

A lot of the time when we start talking about boundaries, we think it's a boundary but we are actually just putting rules or threats on people. Boundaries are for ourselves so we can protect our values not to change someone else's behavior.

Boundary:
I don't like to be cussed at so I'm turning my phone off for 30 minutes (no more conversation about it)

Rule/Threat:
If you don't stop cussing I'm not going to respond anymore

Do you see the subtle difference?

The boundary allows you to remove yourself from the behavior and protect your value of not allowing yourself to be cussed at. Your H could continue to cuss all he wants, you just won't be there to listen. His behavior doesn't have to change, but you change yours to protect your own boundary.

The Rule/Threat tells him if he doesn't respond the way you want him to that you will punish him by not talking. It tells him that his behavior controls the situation instead of you controlling your behavior and him controlling his behavior. It's a form of coercion.

Does that make sense?

It's tough and hard to break so many of these responses because it's what we have done for years. You're getting there though. Keep up the good work.

[isilme]

Remember he's acting out of emotion - you are speaking out of logic.  The two do not meet.  Once a certain point is hit, ANY attempt to explain is JADE-ing, no matter your intentions.  I have a hard time with this and am counting it as progress that I am able to catch myself and stop mid-JADE.  One day, I might be able to not do it at all.  

This morning I got a short text about his concern but not like a rant so I replied with I will be more mindful on schedule changes

He replied I’ll believe it when I see it
I did not reply
Now it’s regular chat

You did good here - This is somewhat par for the course for BPD.  The best I can say is to not respond to things that don't deserve a response.  He got his little jab in.  It's annoying, but you can choose (to a point) how annoyed you are about it.  It's not a game of "gotcha last" where the last response wins.  It's conflict mitigation and resolution.  You responded in a neutral manner, he popped off a one-liner to show he's still fussy.  Conversation done.  Give him space, he will likely "reset" until the next trigger.  

He's an emotionally dysregulated person and likely has coping abilities for stress that are similar to those of a toddler.  Toddlers say all manner of meant things when we tell them it's bath time, time for bed, or have to take a toy away.  :)o we let them bother us?  We can only control ourselves, and our reactions.  Our reactions feed theirs.  We stop giving them the fire-feeding reactions they seek to be able to vent their out of control emotions, the fire can stop spreading and even die down.

This is going to happen.  Life will result in changes and you will have to communicate those with him, and he will likely not react well.  I STILL practice how I intend to tell H when plans change when we have obligations to meet, and I do a rehearsal in my head and pick a time when his mood will be the least "off" to deliver such news.  He surprises me at times with little to no crankiness about it.  

It sucks to need to be so mindful, but our loved ones lack some skills to better manage themselves.  BPD is an illness, a condition, they think this is how everything feels, and it takes us working on us to help them learn new ways to behave/react.  

I think you're doing well based on your "transcript" and it's okay - you can't stave of ALL bouts of anger.  You just do your best, learn, and try again the next time BPD decides to butt into to your life.  

[ClingToHope]

It's a lot of quick thinking but with practice it starts to become second nature.


The boundary allows you to remove yourself from the behavior and protect your value of not allowing yourself to be cussed at. Your H could continue to cuss all he wants, you just won't be there to listen. His behavior doesn't have to change, but you change yours to protect your own boundary.

The Rule/Threat tells him if he doesn't respond the way you want him to that you will punish him by not talking. It tells him that his behavior controls the situation instead of you controlling your behavior and him controlling his behavior. It's a form of coercion.

Does that make sense?

It's tough and hard to break so many of these responses because it's what we have done for years. You're getting there though. Keep up the good work.

I do see the difference. Took me about three readings
That’s gonna be hard on the fly so I will try and practice some of the common scenarios that occur with us.
Thanks

I have another boundryish scenario and I know it sounds like a threat to him but don’t know how else to word it.
Because of the issues I’m trying to resolve with my daughter my H stays up in the our room when he is home (it’s a horrid situation but when I asked him if he would stay with a friend for a few months or take a room he had a melt down so I told him this was the option if he had to stay) it’s not what I would have chosen)
So some days he would be in a neutral mood and acknowledge he was doing this to help me help my daughter.
Most other days I would come in from work and he’d be moppy and whiny when I asked how he was and first few times I’d ask what’s up and he’d complain about being stuck n the dungeon
We’d fight I’d remind him he could stay elsewhere and you can imagine how that went.
I am trying to get both my teen daughters back on the road to good mental health and I have him as well
I’m pushed to my limits. Fighting off anxiety attacks almost daily
He complains that I don’t even spend a few min with him or kiss him hello and I’ve appologized and told him when he’s moppy I don’t have anything left in me and have to stay away and that I can’t be the one to make him happy or cheer him up. That he has to decide that he’s gonna make the best of the scenario ect. (I bought him a guitar so he’d have something besides tv to tinker with) and that if his mood is neutral I’m happy to say hello ect.
He has a flying fit when it comes up that I just want a slave and am unreasonable and expect him to greet me like a happy puppy (which I don’t)
So we have the full talk again about the stress I’m under and that I have nothing left
So any advice on wording for that crappy situation would be really appreciated.
Thank you

[Sofi]

wow.  sounds so much like my situation.  This is really exhausting.  I've been married 27 yrs and my husband started exhibiting BPD behaviors (now I know what to call them) about 12 years ago little by little. Full blown BPD about 10 yrs ago.  I've never had a relationship like this with anyone - having to think about every little word. 
All is okay as long as I affirm him or things are neutral.  As soon as I let him know something he did bothers me or annoys me- 95% chance of hell breaking loose.  I would leave him if I didn't have a 24 yr old son at home with Asperger's Syndrome who desperately needs me to help him navigate his relationship with his dad.  Finally found a Psychologist for my son who specializes in DBT and she's helping him alot.  Now if only I could get my husband to see what is going on with him.  I'm spent.

[isilme]

He complains that I don’t even spend a few min with him or kiss him hello and I’ve appologized and told him when he’s moppy I don’t have anything left in me and have to stay away and that I can’t be the one to make him happy or cheer him up. That he has to decide that he’s gonna make the best of the scenario ect. (I bought him a guitar so he’d have something besides tv to tinker with) and that if his mood is neutral I’m happy to say hello ect.

He has a flying fit when it comes up that I just want a slave and am unreasonable and expect him to greet me like a happy puppy (which I don’t)

So we have the full talk again about the stress I’m under and that I have nothing left

So any advice on wording for that crappy situation would be really appreciated.
Thank you

You're not going to be able to explain it to him in a way to change his actions, but there are things you can do that might help YOU.

You can validate his feelings as long as you are not validating the invalid - like you don't validate his assertation he wants a puppy/slave.  You validate that being stuck in the room must be annoying, thanks for being agreeable during a tough time, it means a lot to you and you appreciate it.

I'd be tempted to walk in, simply say hello, talk about my day, and not ask how he's doing    You already know he's prolly not doing well.  Go about things like changing, preparing dinner, whatever you normally do, invite him to join you for whatever is possible within the situation, like watch a movie in the room before you go to bed, etc.  As "vanilla" questions about what sounds good for dinner, are we out of toilet paper, things that are far removed from emotional content but allow you to visit and interact.  I know that sounds weird, but it's one thing I try to do.  Sometimes getting their minds onto other things is all that is needed.  You're upset - oh-look a squirrel!  Our pets are good for this.  

The fewer openings you leave for him to rail at you, the less drama you may have to face.  Asking how he's doing is a huge opening.  If I can tell H is already in a mood, I observe for a while before asking what's wrong.  I try to see if it coincides with a cold, being hungry, or just plain inability to manage frustration, boredom, and cabin fever.  

Is there anything else that he might be able to use with the guitar, like books on chords?  :)oes he have other hobbies that might help him pass the time?  Small-scale things that can be done in the room?  What does he do when NOT there?  

[ClingToHope]

Isilme
Thank you for your insight.
I’m going to read up on JADE more
And your ideas about going about without asking how he’s doing.

Sofi
I am sorry to hear you are having to sacrifice yourself for your child’s well being but as you know I can totally relate.
Please make sure your taking care of you.
I’m going to start with a therapist to help me keep sight of what’s what.


Thanks again for the feedback. Much appreciated

[Tattered Heart]

I do see the difference. Took me about three readings
That’s gonna be hard on the fly so I will try and practice some of the common scenarios that occur with us.
Thanks

I spend ALOT of time in the car talking to myself practicing how to say things to my H.  

isilme had some good ideas on how to talk to him about staying in the other room. Address his feelings. It sounds like he is feeling physically rejected. When you feel more comfortable maybe you both can sit down and start working on a plan for how you can start rebuilding your relationship.

[Sofi]

I started using “Chegg” electronic flashcards and I’ve been making cards with the acronyms (JADE etc... ) along with some of the great advice shared here - then when I’m commuting I can learn the cards and read over and over what I should be doing. If anything I feel more sane.