She wants me to say "No" to her more often

[danceman5480]

Hello everybody,

I've been married for almost 23 years; my wife is (I believe) an undiagnosed BPD. We have three kids (21, 18, and 14) and my marriage and home life has become progressively worse and worse. I think it's time to leave, but I'm not a strong person... .After 23 years of being told that everything is my fault, and being isolated from friends and a support network, there's very little courage in me to stand up to my wife and leave, to protect myself and our kids.

We are all walking on eggshells. My wife will get angry at me and the kids for things that make no sense. The list of problems just goes on and on ... .verbal abuse, complete inability to understand the effects of her behavior on her husband and children, relentless criticism, telling me "I need you," followed by "I have absolutely nothing to give you so don't ask me for attention or support, and my therapist told me that I'm not supposed to support you -- go to God for that," followed by "I don't need you for anything so leave me alone."

Couples counseling has never worked ... .I have asked her four times to go with me over the years, and we have only lasted one session -- the moment the counselor tells her (gently) that she should work on changing a certain behavior and look at a situation differently, she says the counselor is taking my side and refuses to go back. I have worked with several different therapists over many years, and last week the SIXTH ONE told me "I think you need to get a divorce." (That includes two Catholic priests, who almost never recommend divorce.)

My daughter, who just turned 18 yesterday, asked me a few weeks ago, "What is it going to TAKE for you to get us out of there?"

The craziest part is that she has been working with a therapist herself, and I don't think she has been honest with him in the last few months. It got so bad a few weeks ago that I actually called him directly to talk about what our family and marriage life has been like ... .and he had absolutely no idea what had been going on. My wife's own therapist actually told me, "I can't give you advice of course ... .but she may need you to leave in order to actually deal with her problems."

But still ... .I can't get the courage to stand up to her. She has actually said that she wants me to say "No" to her more often, but when I do ... .she goes into full attack mode, ignores my "No", and the situation never actually gets better. I need to learn to stand up on my own, but it's been that much harder because she knocks me down hard (using tactics that she know hurt me the most) every time I wobble to my feet. So I think it's time to leave. I just don't have the guts to do it yet.

I've been thinking about writing her a letter so she can read it and process it on her own time. I'd welcome advice and support from people who have been through this before.

With Gratitude,
dm

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey danceman5480, Welcome!  We get it and can relate to your challenges.  I'm sorry to hear that you feel the need to leave your marriage, yet lack the strength to do so.  Yours is quite a familiar scenario to me.  The place to start, I suggest, is with yourself, by returning the focus to you and your needs.  What would you like to see happen?  What is the best path for you?  What are your gut feelings?  These are tough questions, I know.  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[danceman5480]

Thanks for your reply LuckyJim.

What do I need?
- To live without the constant threat of sudden, angry meltdowns-and-blamestorms from my wife
- To stand up for myself and my kids
- To provide an emotionally and verbally safe environment for my kids and for myself
- To have a "relationship of equals" with my wife -- not a relationship where she considers herself to be my superior
- To live without a torrent of constant criticism (most of which is entirely unjustified)
- To not have my faults used as weapons against me (I have very mild Aspergers', which my wife criticizes me for regularly)

What do I want?
- To be in a relationship where I'm valued for who I am, rather than berated for not being who she wishes I were
- A partner who recognizes my needs and wants -- not one who always meets them, but can see them as legitimate and can respond with compassion
- A partner who is willing to grow with me, rather than one who blames me for everything (even her own mistakes)


What I would REALLY like is to get my wife the help she needs and walk with her on that path to healing, and have her walk with me on my own journey to health. My experience with her over 23 years though is that she will not accept anything from her family that she perceives as criticism. I don't want to leave ... .but her unwillingness to work with me is leaving very little choice. I've been suffering in silence for so many years, and the emotional abuse and irrationality has really escalated in the last year and a half.

I want to help her ... .but that may not be possible while I am still in the house with her, and possibly even still married to her.

I'm so used to suppressing my own needs and desires because I've been told they are wrong, that to be honest it's hard to even think about listing them or trying to meet them without a lot of guilt.

Thanks,
dm

[Lucky Jim]

Hey DM, No need to feel guilty about listing your needs and wants, particularly around here!  Actually, I think that was a worthwhile exercise because it returns the focus to you, where at this point it needs to be.  The next step might be for you to work on setting boundaries (see Tools button, above).  Boundaries, in my view, are essential, because without them a pwBPD will walk all over you, as you have probably noticed.  Start small, with easily attainable goals, and work your way up from there.  Don't forget: boundaries don't hurt the other person; they are solely for your protection.  Are you ready to begin to set boundaries?

LuckyJim

[AskingWhy]

danceman, I know what you are feeling and your despair.  You have come to the right place to ask questions.

The actions of your uBPD W is affecting you and your children. The fact that your W's therapist actually spoke to you prove he knows what is going on--even if your W is not disclosing all with him.

As a man with Asperger's you know that communication is very important, but you know that your children are now affecting by your W's dysregulating.

Take stock of your situation and look at what your options are.  Look at what your W has done to impact he well-being of your children.  BTW, couples counseling is not recommended in abusive relationships.  Abusers can charm therapists with deceit, half-truths and lies when they want to.

I wish you all the very best in this very painful circumstance.   

[ArleighBurke]

Hi DanceMan and welcome.

Do not write her a letter. It will not work. I tried that with my wife a few times and it made things worse everytime. She will either see it as blame, or only read the parts she wants.

You cannot control her. Take time to let that sink in. As much as you want her to "get better" - that is probably not going to happen.

Instead, you need to learn tools to protect yourself and your kids. These are known as Boundaries. Quite simply - cause and effect statements.
       "When you yell at me, I will leave the room."
       "If you come home drunk, I will take the kids and go elsewhere for the night."

You are NOT trying to control her, you are simply stating what *YOU* will do in certain circumstances.

[waverider]

Have to agree a letter will not work, and will eventually be used as evidence of YOU abusing her. It will not be taken at face value. It will be seen as an all out personal attack. It will be cut and pasted, reedited and quoted back at you to suit her accusations of the time. Many have tried this and it always fails.

So too marriage counselling, and even their therapy sessions as they are all orchestrated around her agenda in an attempt to validate her distorted view of reality. It takes a real BPD specialist to see through this and even then some of the BS sticks.

As for your wish list of what you want your wife to be that will not happen, that is akin to wishing a cat was a dog. Its not going to happen. So what to do?

You should be thinking more along the lines of how can I prevent my wife's behaviour having a toxic effect on me. Rather than how can I stop my wife's behaviour.

You can only control you, this in turn changes the environment. Your wife is very reactive to the environment and so this will influence her actions.  You cannot directly change her actions.

Non of this is easy, nor is it likely you will have complete success. But you can have direction and a sense of input, this alleviates some of the sense of hopelessness.

As far as saying "no" more often that is true with pwBPD. They often lack structure and so look for it in others, they will test to see if you have structure by trying to destabilise you. Inevitably they loose respect for being able to achieve what they attempt to achieve. It is part of the black and white nature. They understand a straight "NO", even if they rebel against it they get over it. They hate a "yes, well maybe, but what if?". Thats not black and white they dont trust it. You think you are being considerate, they think you are being devious and suspicious.

Your task is how to have the confidence to speak in black and white with her, and how to say "no", without all the excess padding and qualifications we tend to cloud it with out of fear of it not going down well. Learning the confidence to express your decision of 'no I wont be doing that because I am not comfortable with it" is one of the most powerful turning points in not just this relationship, but life in general. It is the cornerstone of effective boundary building.