Should I ask for my house key back?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi everyone, first time poster here, though I have been reading for a few months now. My uBPDw and I have been together for essentially 11 years, married for six this summer. Like many people on this board, we have had our ups and downs throughout our relationship, including an affair on her part a little over 3 years ago. Through counseling we got past that and began to rebuild our relationship. Fast forward to this past fall where our relationship hit a great high point of almost six months, where talk turned to a vow renewal, buying a house, and a third child.
     At the beginning of Dec. my wife got into an argument with my sister, and my wife decided to cut my family out of her life. Right before christmas, she decided she wanted a separation to get away from my toxic controlling behaviors, and eventually moved out in the middle of February right after valentines day. Most days, her message is that I never made her happy and didn't commit to making our marriage work, and was not helping out enough around the house.
     Things got messier this past weekend as she went on a date, and let me know that she has met someone else. While she doesn't know if anything will come of it, she thought it was fair to tell me that she met someone she is interested in and plans to spend more time with him. When she told me this, I let her know that it lit a fire within me to fight even harder to save our marriage, to which she replied maybe that was a good thing.
     The confusing part is a week ago, things appeared to be going better. She was showing me pictures of her dream engagement ring (wants me to propose again, essentially to make right the dream proposal/wedding that she has in her head) and we've been talking about looking at land to build a house. After telling me about her date, I asked her if she still wanted us to work out, to which she replied yes, as I am the father of her children and that would be great, but she doesn't know if I can stop being pushy or controlling. It doesn't help that even though she has her own place, we typically spend the night together at least once a week (though not in the same bed, as she thinks that sends me the wrong message). She also still has a key to my place and does all of the families laundry and spends time with our children there, as her studio has little space.
     While part of me feels like I am being played like a fiddle (she has her cake and can eat it too) like many in this group, the good times/feelings are amazing. I am at a loss at what to do; while I know I should probably ask for my key (as she doesn't currently want to be married to me, and for all intents and purposes right now, she doesn't think she is), I know her reply will be that I am just being mean because I am not getting what I want (her to move back and work on our marriage) and for her it will be a sign that I don't love her and don't wish for her happiness.

I know, this was long winded and rambling, thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

[dadoftwogirls]

Hi everyone, first time poster here, though I have been reading for a few months now. My uBPDw and I have been together for essentially 11 years, married for six this summer. Like many people on this board, we have had our ups and downs throughout our relationship, including an affair on her part a little over 3 years ago. Through counseling we got past that and began to rebuild our relationship. Fast forward to this past fall where our relationship hit a great high point of almost six months, where talk turned to a vow renewal, buying a house, and a third child.
     At the beginning of Dec. my wife got into an argument with my sister, and my wife decided to cut my family out of her life. Right before christmas, she decided she wanted a separation to get away from my toxic controlling behaviors, and eventually moved out in the middle of February right after valentines day. Most days, her message is that I never made her happy and didn't commit to making our marriage work, and was not helping out enough around the house.
     Things got messier this past weekend as she went on a date, and let me know that she has met someone else. While she doesn't know if anything will come of it, she thought it was fair to tell me that she met someone she is interested in and plans to spend more time with him. When she told me this, I let her know that it lit a fire within me to fight even harder to save our marriage, to which she replied maybe that was a good thing.
     The confusing part is a week ago, things appeared to be going better. She was showing me pictures of her dream engagement ring (wants me to propose again, essentially to make right the dream proposal/wedding that she has in her head) and we've been talking about looking at land to build a house. After telling me about her date, I asked her if she still wanted us to work out, to which she replied yes, as I am the father of her children and that would be great, but she doesn't know if I can stop being pushy or controlling. It doesn't help that even though she has her own place, we typically spend the night together at least once a week (though not in the same bed, as she thinks that sends me the wrong message). She also still has a key to my place and does all of the families laundry and spends time with our children there, as her studio has little space.
     While part of me feels like I am being played like a fiddle (she has her cake and can eat it too) like many in this group, the good times/feelings are amazing. I am at a loss at what to do; while I know I should probably ask for my key (as she doesn't currently want to be married to me, and for all intents and purposes right now, she doesn't think she is), I know her reply will be that I am just being mean because I am not getting what I want (her to move back and work on our marriage) and for her it will be a sign that I don't love her and don't wish for her happiness.

I know, this was long winded and rambling, thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[RolandOfEld]

Hi dadoftwogirls and congrats on making your first post!

While part of me feels like I am being played like a fiddle (she has her cake and can eat it too) like many in this group, the good times/feelings are amazing.  

I want to address this part since I have some personal experience here. My wife has on many occasions asked for a similar situation in which she moves out and I do most of the childcare. I tried to accommodate it in the past. Nowadays since I think separation would be better for everyone I say she is free to do this, but the consequence is she has little time with the kids. She is not together enough to make this happen but threatens it often.

But I can fully relate to the feeling of being played.

Your wife had the actual follow-through to move out and it sounds like she is living the life my wife dreams of. You say she "spends time" with your children and does the laundry. That hardly amounts to the kind of responsibility a parent should have. Are you providing most of the childcare? I would certainly say she is having her cake and eating it, too.

It sounds like you need to set some boundaries, otherwise your wife can continue doing what she wants, dating who she wants, but coming home and sleeping with you and seeing the kids when convenient for her. You might want to begin with setting some conditions for seeing the kids. If she doesn't follow them, you could consider changing the locks.

These are just ideas and I'd like to hear more about your situation. Does she work and have her own income? Who pays for the studio?

~ROE  

[Radcliff]

dadoftwogirls,

Welcome to bpdfamily.  This is a fantastic place to get support, as well as learn BPD coping skills.  A good place to start learning is this page on setting boundaries.

When trying to be the adaptable, family-preserving folk that we are, it's easy to lose track of our own standards and limits.  Our pwBPD can have their own expectations, and when their deviate from ours, it can get stormy enough that we often toss our expectations aside and adopt theirs. 

Let's try to shine a spotlight on your own values and expectations.  If you were the one living separately, with honest doubts about the marriage, but an openness to explore continuing it, how would you be behaving?  What would you be doing and not doing?

WW

[dadoftwogirls]

Does she work and have her own income? Who pays for the studio?
~ROE  

Thanks Roland! We own a business providing DJ (me) and photography services (her) together and separately, so she gets funds from photography. With that said, the money comes in bits and spurts, and is all dependent on when clients choose to finally pay, meaning that some months the money is flowing freely, while others there is little to no income. When we were living together, I essentially covered all of our bills groceries etc., and her money was used for extras/fun/eating out and whatnot.

To move into the studio, she took out a business loan (unbeknownst to me) as well as a chunk of funds from our business account (her money for the most part). One challenge throughout our relationship is that she said I was controlling with money, yet could not recognize that she would spend money from our account all the time without any conversations about it - I'm not talking about buying a coffee, but rather investing in a new business idea (Scentscy Candles) purchasing new furniture (when we had bills to pay) etc. We have had some conversations about talking when having to take out business loans now, and at least she is talking to me about probably needing to take a loan out to cover her rents next month.

Let's try to shine a spotlight on your own values and expectations.  If you were the one living separately, with honest doubts about the marriage, but an openness to explore continuing it, how would you be behaving?  What would you be doing and not doing?

Wentworth, thank you as well for the welcome! If our roles were switched, I would not be interested in dating and would probably encourage the two of us to pursue couples counseling. With that said, I have really been working with the idea that a pwBPD's thoughts are reality, and with that being said, she sees us as not together so doesn't see anything wrong with going on casual dates.
My focus right now is to keep things calm between us for an extended period of time. It was interesting; on Monday evening I had a counseling appointment and we had planned to have dinner with our children (5 & 10) after I was done. When I got back, she was very curious about my appointment, and I was happy to share with her as she currently feels that our relationship failed because I didn't show her enough love for the last 11 years, always putting her last. The challenge was how do I share with her what we were discussing without sharing the fact that we spend a large amount of time discussing her BPD behaviors. After sharing with her, we had a long talk about how she hoped that I could make the changes within me to be a better husband and while she hoped we could keep our family together, she couldn't just sit and wait for me to make those changes after her date with the other guy went so well. She wants to take things slow and have us get to know each other (as her feeling is that we didn't have a friendship in our marriage). With all of this, it's interesting to me that she still isn't asking for a divorce.

After that, yesterday was a complete 180. In the morning, she began texting me silly photos and chatting. We spent all day together after work, hanging out, watching a movie, and even making love for the first time in a long while. TBH, it was probably one of the most connected moments of love making that I have ever felt with her. Also of note, she made multiple comments about "us" for the first time in a long time. While the "old me" would have called her out on these moments, I just let them happen and went with the flow, enjoying the day in it's entirety.

I guess right now, my plan of action is to continue to work to keep the peace so to speak, and try to approach our conversations from her point of view and work on not invalidating her feelings.
I have a feeling the new guy is so great because he isn't me or our marriage - who doesn't like those feelings of first meeting someone you click with? It fits with a the idea of BPD because she gets praise and compliments from him, and she can accept them, as he doesn't know the real her that she feels she is inside.

[juju2]

Welcome!

You are in the right place... .

There is a lot going on in your r/s... glad you found us, there is a lot of reading, tools, posting, help.

If it was me, and you and my situation are different, we have no kids together  and we each help raise the others kids... .anyway  we are separated one year after 10yr r/s living together... .

I read up on BPD after we separated, he is very high functioning, dxpwBPD 15 or more years ago.

I had to get myself healthy, work on my issues, and get physically in better shape, lost 50 lbs, enrolled in community college, take two classes after work.
Last yr he and i were working on our r/s, traveling together, spending chunks of time together.
Mid October last year, that all stopped.

It's in my posts here.  Long story short, last week he tells me he is in a relationship w someone, if they don't work out, maybe we could give it another try.?

I guess I just need to have my own compass, and use these tools, not react... .

Since he told me that last week, I have cut contact, and so he is moving closer, texting and calling me.
My boundary is i don't initiate.

Right now my phone is misplaced, so he is emailing me.

Learn here, I journal, it does require a lot, as you have found, to be in a relationship w pwBPD... .

Be of hope, there are caring people here, and a lot of experience! 
j

[dadoftwogirls]

Hi juju,
     I have been following your posts for a while, though I have not done much commenting on other's posts.

Welcome!

If it was me, and you and my situation are different, we have no kids together  and we each help raise the others kids... .anyway  we are separated one year after 10yr r/s living together... .

I love my wife dearly, but I will admit that if we didn't have children, I think the decision for me to stay or not would be incredibly different.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi dadoftwogirls and thanks for elaborating. Our wife's behaviors are too similar so it's hard for me not to get a little worked up reading, but I will stay objective here:

We have had some conversations about talking when having to take out business loans now, and at least she is talking to me about probably needing to take a loan out to cover her rents next month.

Is she applying for those loans in the name of your company or herself? I think the responsibility of those loans need to be entirely on her and you need to protect your business from any harm they might inflict, especially since you have two children to take care of. If she's using any credit cards that are tied to you, cut them off. Lock her out of any accounts of yours she might touch. You can't stop her from moving out, but you can make sure she takes full financial responsibility for herself.

After sharing with her, we had a long talk about how she hoped that I could make the changes within me to be a better husband and while she hoped we could keep our family together, she couldn't just sit and wait for me to make those changes after her date with the other guy went so well. She wants to take things slow and have us get to know each other (as her feeling is that we didn't have a friendship in our marriage). With all of this, it's interesting to me that she still isn't asking for a divorce.

Please don't take this question the wrong way, but do you have any proof that she is actually seeing someone new? I ask as someone who is just now starting to realize my wife is not being 100% honest with me about a lot of things. I see now that on many occasions she has lied about meeting other people online or wanting to date to hurt me. The above line about not being able to wait for changes and seeing new people could be quoting her verbatim. I'm fairly certain that she recently faked a trip to the hospital to guilt me.

Again, if she wants to make her own life that is fine for her, but she needs to tie up the loose ends. Her living expenses need to come from her and not drain your business. If she wants to date, fine, but she can't expect to drop by whenever she wants and share your bed. If she doesn't want to do her share of the childcare, then that means you get to set the limits on how much she sees them.

It's easy for me as an outsider to offer suggestions, but what do you think? Is the above doable?  

~ROE

[dadoftwogirls]

Roland,
     Thank you for the insight. I guess part of me is so incredibly scared that if I set these boundaries it will end badly for me. In the past when I tried to set some boundaries, her immediate response was that I was just being mean because I'm not getting what I want. So if I go that route now, I guess my biggest fear is that she will walk away from our marriage completely, which is not the end result I am looking for.

[RolandOfEld]

I understand your fear completely, dadoftwogirls. I too fear losing everything we've worked so hard to build. And of course there's the children to consider. You sound like a very compassionate and caring husband and I'm sure it would be a huge loss for her to not have you.

That said, a marriage without boundaries is not a marriage. And if in the worst case the marriage ends as a result of you setting boundaries, it is not on you, it's on her. It is the natural consequence of her behaviors, not yours. And true reconciliation can only occur when she has taken accountability for her part of the problems in the relationship. She can't do that if she isn't handed the responsibility.  

I wouldn't worry too much about setting all these boundaries all at once. When I first found out about my wife's BPD, I thought if I didn't say no to everything at once I was failing myself and my family. But we're human and we only have so much strength. It's a day by day process. We build strength gradually. I still give in a lot. Prioritize one boundary at a time and try to stick to it.

I was recommended this book about boundaries by another member and am working through it now. It's written from a Christian perspective, and though I'm not Christian myself I find most of the principles to be universal. You might want to check it out:
https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/0310247454

Hang in there and stay close to the board. We've got your back!

~ROE

[dadoftwogirls]

ROE,
     Thank you for the continued insights. I have read the book your referenced, as well as their followup book Boundaries in Marriage. Both were very interesting reads and I definitely felt there was material in them that could be applied to my situation.

Your comments about her needing to be handed the responsibility is an angle that I haven't thought about in that way before. Can you share with me (in a PM if you would rather) what boundaries you set first, and how your wife responded at first. While I understand that every situation is different, I guess I am trying to find courage through stories of people who set boundaries, got negative responses, and then were able to keep things positive.

Dad

[Radcliff]

dadoftwodaughters,

I'm a dad of three daughters  12, 17, and 19.

Three important things I'd like to say:

1.  When you told her that her being interested in the other guy made you more motivated to invest in the marriage, do you see how much power you handed over to her?  How much reward she got for breaking her marriage vows?

2.  You said your wife wanted to hear all about how you were going to fix yourself.  This is common with a pwBPD.  It is immensely invalidating to you, since you know you both probably need to improve in the relationship.  Be careful not to validate her and take more responsibility than is yours.  The temptation to give in to her just to keep the peace is huge, I understand.  If she becomes more and more entrenched in the idea that you are the sole problem in the marriage, the situation may continue to deteriorate.  Keep an eye on this.  You may not have a lot of control over it.  Do your best not to lose your bearings and adopt her point of view.

3.  You said that your outlook on the relationship would be very different if it weren't for the kids.  The strength and health of the relationship has a huge impact on the kids.  If you sacrifice yourself for a relationship that does not meet your needs as a human being, your daughters may either follow your example, or follow your wife's example.  I'm not saying "run," I am saying that merely staying together is not the most important metric for the kids.  Working for a healthy relationship with your wife, as you are doing, is the objective.  If after a time you come to feel that that is not attainable, think carefully about what arrangements would be best for your kids -- you may end up with a conclusion different than what you expected.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi dotg, WW managed to convey what I was trying to say about boundaries a million times better than I could so please listen to him.   

I am happy to give you an example of a boundary I set and the process it went through. For context, my wife has been mostly stay at home with our S5 and D2 for four years and is trying to go back to work this year.

1) Wife insists I take a few months off from work so she can focus on preparing for job interviews (this would put us on no income and could end up with me losing my job; a year ago when I was unaware of her BPD I would have said yes)
2) I said no for the above reasons I shared
3) Wife proceeds to cut almost all of my work clothes to shreds
4) I take time off from work to buy new clothes, leave them in open at home to declare I will go to work no matter what
5) Wife steals new clothes
6) I call police over to tell her this is illegal
7) Police leave, she hits me, I start to dial police, she stops me, says she won't do it anymore
8) My clothing and job has not been threatened since and my wife has taken some steps to take responsibility for her work situation

The key thing about the above was creating a real world consequence for her behavior, not just telling her she couldn't do that, which is as useless as telling a 4 yr old they can't eat the candy in their hand. If someone steals or destroys your things, you call the police. They way I see it, your wife is trying to steal your money by involving you in the business loan.

What do you think the natural consequence for that should be, and how can you ensure that it occurs?

~ROE