Can we separate BPD from the individual's decisions and hold them accountable?

[once removed]

what does it mean to each of us to hold someone accountable for their actions? how does it apply to us and our exes?

[icky]

what does it mean to each of us to hold someone accountable for their actions? how does it apply to us and our exes?

For me it was a question of "Is this a once-off freak event (the meltdowns and abusiveness)?" or "Is this a pattern that will repeat constantly?"

And "Is this something he can get therapy for and change?" or "Is this something that is far bigger than him and his ability to cope with it in any meaningful way and hence will continue for ever?"

For me, I answered "yes" to the last question in both cases.

So, for me there's 2 aspects to this "accountable" thing - one has to do with me, the other with him.

In terms of protecting myself, I have to realise that due to BPD he is not going to stop doing what he does. These behaviours are a part of him. And I can't "make excuses for him", I have to take action (NC) to protect myself.

In terms of looking at him as a person, I can have compassion and realise that it's a mental illness and he suffers a great deal and IMO even if he seems to be lashing out "on purpose", it's part of the illness.

So I totally differentiate re accountability in terms of "what are the effects on me" (totally accountable, need to take action) and "what is his motivation" (hardly accountable at all, suffering from an illness).

[SlyQQ]

I have largely discounted the effects on myself the thing i am furious with, and still untempered by distance and years am, is the untold damage they bestow on unwitting people (especially children)who can't protect themselves that are around them ,they didn't sign up for this so -

get your act together, grow up and back off.

I could draw parables but they are generally unappreciated in this forum.

 

[icky]

I have largely discounted the effects on myself the thing i am furious with, and still untempered by distance and years am, is the untold damage they bestow on unwitting people (especially children)who can't protect themselves that are around them ,they didn't sign up for this so -

get your act together, grow up and back off.

Do you have kids with your BPDx, SlyQQ?

If so, yeah, I agree, that's a whole other dimension.

I grew up with a BPD mother, so I know the heartache first hand. When I read about ppl on this forum having kids with a BPDx and the kids are in the BPDx's custody, I get chills down my spine, given my own experience.

I did trauma therapy in my 20s to recover and heal from the abuse and violence from my BPD mother. I ended up going no-contact with her (it's been 17 years now) but before I did, there were many conversations and joint therapy sessions to try and stop her being violent and abusive (she just kept going, even tho I wasn't a kid anymore).

After 2-3 years attempting to gain any kind of resolution, my therapists basically gave me an ultimatum. They said "She is so broken that if you stay in touch with her, all we can ever do is first-aid to deal with the new wounds she will keep on inflicting." They basically told me there is "little point" to doing therapy, if I don't remove the source of the abuse and violence.

My therapists and I had tried everything we could think of, but it became obvious that she would NEVER attain a sense of self-awareness, NEVER realise what she was doing, NEVER respect boundaries, NEVER seek effective treatment, NEVER stop being in denial, NEVER stop blaming, NEVER reduce the amount of abuse and violence, NEVER adopt even vaguely healthy relationship patterns.

It was VERY hard coming to this realisation after such unhappy childhood experiences with her. At 20, I just couldn't fathom that an adult could be "like that" and could have 0% capacity for change or growth. It was a deeply shocking experience to realise that and to grieve it.

So, while I totally agree with your emotional reaction that pwBPD should NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be allowed to harm children... .

... .I'm afraid *my* experience of BPD is that they cannot "help" it and that most pwBPD will not "get their act together" or "grow up" or "back off".

That's my honest experience with it.

And IMO it's not the "hitting" that does the damage to kids with a BPD parent. It's all the subtle emotional abuse and unhealthy relationship patterns. And unfortunately, there's no social services/ family court that will take that into account unless it's a very extreme case of BPD.

[SlyQQ]

Icky there by hangs a tale , but yes.

and yes the emotional abuse is far worse than any physical abuse.

and no they can grow up an back off.

[icky]

Icky there by hangs a tale , but yes.

and yes the emotional abuse is far worse than any physical abuse.

and no they can grow up an back off.

I understand about not wanting to rehash the whole tale : )

Can you share some details about how you've managed to push for and achieve "growing up and backing off"?

Do you have custody of your kids?

[SlyQQ]

I brought up my two step daughters and my son Icky, mostly by myself,

i've been through a par with the worst youv'e seen on these boards but both my step daughter and my ex are in reasonable shape now

my son is ok, my other step daughter is not too bad,

[RomanticFool]

I'd just like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. I have found my expwBPD to be in turns: Volatile, loving, interested, disinterested, dismissive, enthralled, engaged, disengaged, cruel, doting, heartless, caring etc etc... .Sounds like the spectrum of most human beings doesn't it?

The thing that I have found the most challenging with her is that she seems to have an inability to see anything from my point of view. This is partly my fault and while I now understand to some degree the mechanism behind this behaviour, it makes it no easier to deal with. The reason is because I have my own emotional reaction to her behaviour often in the form of angry justification and I become just as empathically impaired.

I have been most successful in communicating when I try to be validating and show empathy towards her. I have listened to her woes for long periods of time and given her feedback and shown understanding. However, there have been more frequent times of me verbally attacking her and pushing her away. Therefore, no matter how long I spent being empathic and validating, it was all undone by my own angry responses. In my experience, once you have incurred the displeasure of a pwBPD, they usually visit their disorder upon you. In my ex's case, this always takes the form of weeks and months of ST.

What I have discovered about my ex is that I can never win (which ironically is her stock phrase to me). No matter how much love I shower upon her, no matter how understanding I am to her, no matter how much I care for her and want to be with her, her behaviour will always be erratic and self-centred. She will also reflect her own character defects back at me. This transference takes the form of saying things like: "What I've noticed about you is that whenever you're busy, you never contact me." This is of course exactly how she behaves. The absolute gem of all gems is the following: "I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you are self-centred in the extreme and don't take any interest in my life." Even when I show her the millions of texts where I asked after her, when I resend the poems which she poured scorn upon, when I remind her of all the times I told her I loved her and told her how beautiful she is (not once has she ever told me she finds me attractive in 15 years) she insists that I am the abuser and she is the victim. She will never relent from this position because the childhood trauma she has suffered has taught her to do one thing only: seek validation, love and security from others. There is no room in that equation for her to give anything meaningful of herself... .Not to me anyway. I daresay she does to her children but I cannot swear to it. I was her affair partner but she has made it very clear in her actions that I am not a person of importance in her life. However, her words will tell a very different story.

I have found my r/s with her to be the most complex and destructive of any r/s I have ever been involved in. Part of it is that I was an affair partner and also that she has underlying mental health issues on top of the BPD. I used to want to be with her and fantasised about spending my life with this beautiful but damaged person. I find after 15 years I can only have empathy and sympathy for her husband. These are complex relationships with damaged people. It isn't that they are bad or evil, but their disorder simply does not allow them to play by the neurotypical norm. It is pointless for me to try to hold her accountable for her actions. Most of the time she doesn't remember what she has said or done to me (or perhaps pretends not to). Above all, she cannot ever admit she has done me wrong because then she would have to see me as her victim rather than the other way around. I must add here though that I have been guilty of appalling verbal attacks on her when I sensed she was pulling away from me or when i suspected her of seeing somebody else. We are often attracted to our emotional equals. I have found that the only way to deal with the PTSD I am suffering from the r/s is to look at my part in it and see how and why I opened the door to this drama/abuse.

RF

[Cromwell]

I'd just like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. I have found my expwBPD to be in turns: Volatile, loving, interested, disinterested, dismissive, enthralled, engaged, disengaged, cruel, doting, heartless, caring etc etc... .Sounds like the spectrum of most human beings doesn't it?

The thing that I have found the most challenging with her is that she seems to have an inability to see anything from my point of view. This is partly my fault and while I now understand to some degree the mechanism behind this behaviour, it makes it no easier to deal with. The reason is because I have my own emotional reaction to her behaviour often in the form of angry justification and I become just as empathically impaired.

I have been most successful in communicating when I try to be validating and show empathy towards her. I have listened to her woes for long periods of time and given her feedback and shown understanding. However, there have been more frequent times of me verbally attacking her and pushing her away. Therefore, no matter how long I spent being empathic and validating, it was all undone by my own angry responses. In my experience, once you have incurred the displeasure of a pwBPD, they usually visit their disorder upon you. In my ex's case, this always takes the form of weeks and months of ST.

What I have discovered about my ex is that I can never win (which ironically is her stock phrase to me). No matter how much love I shower upon her, no matter how understanding I am to her, no matter how much I care for her and want to be with her, her behaviour will always be erratic and self-centred. She will also reflect her own character defects back at me. This transference takes the form of saying things like: "What I've noticed about you is that whenever you're busy, you never contact me." This is of course exactly how she behaves. The absolute gem of all gems is the following: "I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you are self-centred in the extreme and don't take any interest in my life." Even when I show her the millions of texts where I asked after her, when I resend the poems which she poured scorn upon, when I remind her of all the times I told her I loved her and told her how beautiful she is (not once has she ever told me she finds me attractive in 15 years) she insists that I am the abuser and she is the victim. She will never relent from this position because the childhood trauma she has suffered has taught her to do one thing only: seek validation, love and security from others. There is no room in that equation for her to give anything meaningful of herself... .Not to me anyway. I daresay she does to her children but I cannot swear to it. I was her affair partner but she has made it very clear in her actions that I am not a person of importance in her life. However, her words will tell a very different story.
RF

It screams out to me as projection on her part.

I got this daily to the point I could finish off her sentences before she finished, the stock phrases which werent even eventually her speaking to me but almost speaking to herself as if pressing play on a portable cassette inside her mind coming out her mouth as noise.

I learned to just tune-out when the sanctimonious monologue would start. used to always try to hide my smile when eventually after what seemed like hours "are you listening?"

, would have loved to have said the truth "i didnt hear a word you said for the past 10 minutes".

That btw is not because im an ignorant person, simply because id heard it all over and over and although I had accepted it as the projections and ramblings of someone using me as an emotional outlet to compensate for the real problems caused by other people that i had nothing to do with, it was the only way to preserve sanity but tune out of it would have been mind control indocrination otherwise. The problem I faced was that if I would have interupted, or challenged the illogic of the arguments, it would have just been the spark to light the powder keg, and more furniture damaged or over dramatic (and quite violent) behaviour she was capable of.