It is like I have been driving but couldn't see through the windscreen

[Depression = 72% of members]

In just the last few days I have just realized that my wife of 15 years displays behaviors and even describes her inner experience in ways that are consistent with BPD. I finally feel like our marriage makes sense. What has been a fog of emotions -- confusion, hurt, anger -- has been replaced by clarity. Oh. This is what is going on. This makes sense. It is like I have been driving but couldn't see through the windscreen. I have been trying to use the windshield wipers but nothing got any better, I still couldn't see. Then the defroster came on, and the fog lifted and I could see.

My wife is needy, and I need to be needed. We fit together perfectly. I chose this relationship because it felt good to have someone want me so much. Especially a smart, beautiful, fit, interesting, exciting, amazing woman like her.

But after years together the blaming, criticizing, gaslighting, and general crazy-making have taken a toll on our relationship. She attacks and I withdraw. I withdraw, so she feels abandoned. She feels abandoned so she attacks.

I am seeing an individual therapist and trying to change me. We had been going to couples therapy but now she refuses to go because she behaved really badly in front of the therapist (which is, of course, his fault).

I am so frustrated and confused.

I am a fixer. I want so desperately to fix this.

I have read SWOE and every page has an insight about what has and is going on in my life. It is so overwhelming to read about me and my marriage from someone who has never met me or my wife.

I need help. I am at ground zero. I feel like I finally understand where my marriage really is and how it really works. And 50% of the responsibility is mine. I am trying to change me. I feel the nearly irresistible urge to fix my wife (for her), and I am having a really hard time with acceptance.

Thanks for listening... .

[PChemGuy]

In just the last few days I have just realized that my wife of 15 years displays behaviors and even describes her inner experience in ways that are consistent with BPD. I finally feel like our marriage makes sense. What has been a fog of emotions -- confusion, hurt, anger -- has been replaced by clarity. Oh. This is what is going on. This makes sense. It is like I have been driving but couldn't see through the windscreen. I have been trying to use the windshield wipers but nothing got any better, I still couldn't see. Then the defroster came on, and the fog lifted and I could see.

My wife is needy, and I need to be needed. We fit together perfectly. I chose this relationship because it felt good to have someone want me so much. Especially a smart, beautiful, fit, interesting, exciting, amazing woman like her.

But after years together the blaming, criticizing, gaslighting, and general crazy-making have taken a toll on our relationship. She attacks and I withdraw. I withdraw, so she feels abandoned. She feels abandoned so she attacks.

I am seeing an individual therapist and trying to change me. We had been going to couples therapy but now she refuses to go because she behaved really badly in front of the therapist (which is, of course, his fault).

I am so frustrated and confused.

I am a fixer. I want so desperately to fix this.

I have read SWOE and every page has an insight about what has and is going on in my life. It is so overwhelming to read about me and my marriage from someone who has never met me or my wife.

I need help. I am at ground zero. I feel like I finally understand where my marriage really is and how it really works. And 50% of the responsibility is mine. I am trying to change me. I feel the nearly irresistible urge to fix my wife (for her), and I am having a really hard time with acceptance.

Thanks for listening... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[CryWolf]

Hey PChemGuy,  

(physical chemistry? I love Ochem )

Im sorry about your situation and what you are going through. 15 years is a long time to be going through the push/pull cycle of a person with BPD (pwBPD). Here on this group, we have a ton of useful information about communication with your pwBPD.

If you click on the tools on the top of the page, I would advise you learn about "jading" and also learning to validate her. I have been in the situation of withdrawing when I just couldnt handle my partner anymore and did not know the tools i do today.

Keep posting and sharing. The process may seem very slow and sometimes even stagnant but here you will learn so much to better equip yourself and help your relationship.

You reading "stop walking on eggshells" is  a HUUUUGE step forward. I feel that your wife stopped seeing the therapist because she felt shame and embarrassed to go back. It may take her some time to warm back up to the idea of it.

I understand youre a fixer, as many of us here are. But with people with BPD, it is best we allow them to handle their situations and learn. We cant always fix everything for them. A little tough love is needed at times. I hope anyone else can jump in and put their insight here.

I think you should stop taking so much blame. It takes two to make a relationship, and her BPD shouldnt indicate you as a failure or not based on the dynamics of the relationship. People with BPD can not be fixed. Their BPD can be managed and treated with long extensive therapy such as DBT. However, it can solely be on their own choosing to be "fixed". We can not save them if she doesnt want to be saved.

Read as much as you can here, post as much as you can. Knowledge is power. We are here for you Pchemguy.

[once removed]

hi PChemGuy, id like to join CryWolf and say

it is such a revelation to learn that there is a name for all of this, and finally a way in which it starts to make sense, no?

and with that, there is hope. things can get better.

its good that youve been self reflecting, found a good therapist, and that you reached out here. every situation is unique of course, but youre among people that have walked, or are walking in your shoes. i would second CryWolf in recommending the lessons and tools here. the lessons cover so many aspects of this. i learned them after my relationship ended, but i use them with everyone, and theyll take you far.

can you tell us more about how we can best support you? maybe describe some of the primary and/or recent points of conflict between you and your wife?

what led you to learning about BPD?

[PChemGuy]

Hi onceremoved and CryWolf,

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. They really mean a lot to me. It is amazing to finally be able to put a name on the craziness that goes on in my marriage.

I feel sort of overwhelmed by all the different aspects of what is going on and figuring out how I can improve what I do and how I do it to make our life more sane. Things that are clearly problems, and they are pretty interrelated, include

• validating and not invalidating: we both use invalidating language sometimes. Hers can be pretty over the top. Mine I think is more subtle, but still I am starting to see that it might be invalidating, too. The JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) thing (sorry CryWolf it took me a long time to figure out what you meant!) is really hard for me. I am a teacher and scientist and ... .let's say that `jading' is exactly what I have spent my whole adult life training to do as effectively as possible. Occupational hazard, I guess. 
• setting boundaries: we are both bad with boundaries. I am not good at setting and sticking to my boundaries. She feels that having any boundaries means that we don't have a relationship (like at all). So I feel a boundary break happen, then I am angry about it, but then I feel obligated to let the boundary down because I want to have a relationship and then I resent the feeling of obligation and being guilt-tripped into doing things. It is such a mess! I want off this rollercoaster ride!

I think these two problems get interrelated because any time I set a boundary, my partner feels rejected and abandoned. Then she is really angry at me. Her feeling of rejection comes straight out at me as flames of rage. I have a hard time staying validating in the face of some pretty pointed comments (to put it mildly). And if I maintain my boundary, I get punished -- either she withdraws or threatens to withdraw, which hurts a lot.

This pattern is the key behavior that made me think about BPD. I heard some random youtube video about 'covert narcissism'. When I heard it, I stopped everything and asked "what is that guy talking about because that is my partner and that is what I experience (on the receiving end) every day.

Example: Last night, we had a family dinner, got the kids to bed and decided we wanted to spend some time together. She was asking me what I would like to do this evening in a "flipped" way that I have gotten to know over the years. She knows what she wants, but she wants me to want the same thing without her saying what she wants. If I don't want the same thing or if I can't read her mind, then there is something wrong with me and our relationship. Also, she is afraid that she will get in trouble for asking for what she wants because in our couples therapy I have been trying to explain that it hurts my feelings when she is domineering. (She doesn't say any of this, but the inner turmoil is crystal clear from her demeanor. I have alarm bells going off saying that this is the beginning of a potentially very explosive interaction.) This is the kind of stuff that has, historically, driven me wild with how crazy it is. This storm of emotions just trying to spend some quality time together! It was actually a little comforting to be able to tell myself -- this is okay, it is the BPD talking. I am not crazy, and she is not trying to be manipulative.

I tried to stay calm and be open and accepting. I said something like, "I picked the movie last night, I'd like to hear what you'd like for tonight." Finally she said that she would like to just stay up and talk. Fine with me.

Tricky bit is that the thing she wants to talk about is what have I been thinking about so much recently and why haven't I shared it. I see (and know from having ridden this ride so many times) that she is upset and feels excluded. At the same time, I haven't told her that I think she displays a lot of BPD behaviors, and no way am I going to fall into the trap of telling her about BPD. That would be a ... .I don't think I am supposed to use the extreme language needed to convey what a big mistake that would be on this board. So this is my boundary. What I am trying to work out about BPD and how I relate to it is mine (these are my thoughts and feelings that I am not ready to share.) So, I am thinking -- okay find a way to validate her feelings and, at the same time, maintain my boundary.

I tried to start with "I can understand that you might feel rejected or abandoned that I haven't shared what I am thinking about. Right now those thoughts are still all being sorted out and they aren't ready to share yet." Anticipating that she is probably going to interpret this in the worst way possible like -- what he means is he wants to tell me he is leaving me, but he just doesn't have the balls to say it to my face yet -- I decided to say, "But I want you to know that I am thinking about things I can do to make our relationship stronger and more supportive." I was really trying to reach out in the way that I could while staying true to my boundary. Then she got up in a huff, stomped up the stairs, with some vague threats about our relationship not continuing, because really what is the point.

This pattern is so common and so hurtful.

When we woke up this morning, she was still hopping mad. She started with some thing about how I am bad for waking up too late. Trying to think about how to use some of the validating ideas from the Fruzzetti video (which I thought was really enlightening) I tried to again go for the feeling. "You sound angry. Did I hurt you?" "YES! that was so hurtful last night I wanted to talk about anything and you just shut me out, how are we ever going to have a relationship if we can't even talk to each other. I brought up using the conversation cards, I wanted to just spend time with you." "I am sorry I hurt you, I certainly didn't mean to hurt you at all. I actually wanted to spend time talking to and enjoying your company." "Well if you wanted to spend time with me, you should have chased after me and apologized and told me." See, she makes this implicit case that it was really all my fault in the end. I am the bad partner. She just wants to enjoy each other's company. What is my problem, why am I so messed up? And then, on top of that, she still went off in a huff, (angrily) "I have to go make the kids pancakes, but I don't know if I will have time because everyone up here is too slow." More punishing criticisms.

It is so freaking stressful and exhausting. Just processing the storm that came from trying to have some quality time with her and the chaos that ensues is so overwhelming. I get all stirred up. In the past I would get seriously stuck being (a) angry that she is pulling so many unreasonable stunts with so many jibes, barbs, and criticisms, and (b) wondering what if I really did do something wrong, if I didn't do something wrong why would she be so upset? Now I am trying to (c) process feelings (a) and (b) without letting them get control of me, (d) use the idea that my partner's behavior is typical BPD behavior (It seems like it to me anyway. Do you agree?), (e) find some compassion for the pain that she feels (and the hard part) without taking responsibility for it (that is SO HARD!).   

This is the kind of stuff that I am trying to work through right now. I feel so new to this BPD world that it is quite disorienting.

So I am still trying to educate myself. I found the Fruzzetti lecture really helpful so I ordered his book. And I also was pretty inspired by the Radical Acceptance ideas. That approach is very foreign to me. I like to work hard and fix problems -- doing things like ordering and reading a bunch of books in a frantic manner. Frantically reading about Mindfulness and `papancha' (sp?) is kind of funny, I have to admit.

Thanks for letting me vent. Just the feeling that I can say these things, that somebody out there might be able to understand what I am going through, and that my feelings and experiences are valid eases the burden.
 

[engineer]

Heya PChemGuy

I'm a physicist by education and an engineer by profession, perhaps that's why I identified *immediately* with your analytical nature and your approach to the situation... .and also with the details of what's happening in your situation.

I'm pretty new to this as well.  I accepted that my wife exhibits BPD traits a couple of months ago.  We've made substantial progress since then but we have a long way to go.  She often criticises me for being too analytical, but honestly I don't know another way to do this.  I have to be quicker than she and I have to think every single thing all the way through.

She knows what she wants, but she wants me to want the same thing without her saying what she wants. If I don't want the same thing or if I can't read her mind, then there is something wrong with me and our relationship.

Yes, this.  It has caused so many of our worst fights.  If I do not guess correctly the first time and within a millisecond she combusts spontaneously.  And then I have to convince her that whatever it is is what I want. 

[PChemGuy]

@engineer It is such a relief that somebody else gets it... .

I accepted that my wife exhibits BPD traits a couple of months ago.  We've made substantial progress since then but we have a long way to go. 

It is great to hear that you made some progress. That gives me some hope. What kind of things helped you the most?

[engineer]

@engineer It is such a relief that somebody else gets it... .

It is great to hear that you made some progress. That gives me some hope. What kind of things helped you the most?

I think the first thing that helped me get my head around this and start making progress was to stop reacting.  You know, at work people give you the facts straight.  Let's say I mess something up big time... .if I don't notice it first somebody is going to tell me and they're going to be concerned with the facts and with what happened and then with how to fix it.  They are not concerned with my feelings because feelings are irrelevant.  I'm not thin-skinned at all.  I've been a professional engineer since 1988 and I am very comfortable in rough-and-tumble work environments.

At home it's different.  First of all I expect a bit of a softer approach from my wife, and second of all I expect criticism to be logical, and furthermore I expect to be able to rebut.  With my wife none of those things happen.  A minor real or perceived mistake is communicated as something along the lines of "you're a worthless piece of garbage and a child and nobody loves you and your father smelt of elderberries".  My response to this sort of thing is usually either refutation or outrage.  Neither of those is helpful.

I had to learn to just... .take it.  I had to learn that the stuff she was spouting at me had no basis in reality and were, essentially, the words of madness.  Would I get upset if the crazy guy who digs through the garbage on Saturday morning started raving at me about how I am training raccoons to steal his garbage from him?  Nope... .'cause he's nuts.  Wouldn't bother me a bit.

It bothers me with my wife because she *is* logical most of the time.  She is insightful, intelligent, caring... .awesome.  And then sometimes she has a short circuit in her head that fries her processor and sends her into a mad spiral.  She isn't doing it on purpose.

I imagine the inside of her head is a very frightening place.  She is a cat up a tree and she is frightened.  So I put on my leather gloves before I approach her, and I don't begrudge her for trying to scratch me.

It is hard as heck to do... .but when I succeed and emerge from her vortex without getting upset she feels safe and cared for.  And I am much less likely to get rabies.  hm... .maybe my analogy is breaking down, there.

Anyway, it's certainly not the whole program.  I have a lot to learn about how to interact with her.  But not getting hurt by her irrationality makes such a big difference.

[engineer]

Haha, I hit the quote button instead of the edit button and quoted and re-posted the whole thing i just said. 

I guess my father really does smell of elderberries after all

[PChemGuy]

I think the first thing that helped me get my head around this and start making progress was to stop reacting.  You know, at work people give you the facts straight.  Let's say I mess something up big time... .if I don't notice it first somebody is going to tell me and they're going to be concerned with the facts and with what happened and then with how to fix it.  They are not concerned with my feelings because feelings are irrelevant.  I'm not thin-skinned at all.  I've been a professional engineer since 1988 and I am very comfortable in rough-and-tumble work environments.

Ditto. I am a scientist. If there is a problem, tell me what and let's figure out how to fix it. If I was wrong just tell me and let's deal with it.

At home it's different.  ... . A minor real or perceived mistake is communicated as something along the lines of "you're a worthless piece of garbage and a child and nobody loves you and your father smelt of elderberries".  My response to this sort of thing is usually either refutation or outrage.  Neither of those is helpful.

I had to learn to just... .take it. <snip>It bothers me with my wife because she *is* logical most of the time.  She is insightful, intelligent, caring... .awesome.  And then sometimes she has a short circuit in her head that fries her processor and sends her into a mad spiral.

 

Exactly. I am so glad to hear that somebody out there goes through what I do, too. (Uhh... .Sorry!)

And then sometimes she has a short circuit in her head that fries her processor and sends her into a mad spiral.  She isn't doing it on purpose.

I imagine the inside of her head is a very frightening place.  She is a cat up a tree and she is frightened.  So I put on my leather gloves before I approach her, and I don't begrudge her for trying to scratch me.

It is hard as heck to do... .but when I succeed and emerge from her vortex without getting upset she feels safe and cared for. <snip> But not getting hurt by her irrationality makes such a big difference.

I like burned out CPU and the leather gloves metaphors... .

This is dead on one of the things that I am trying to get better at. Last night I spent nearly 3 hours with her talking about our relationship (what is left of it anyway). I mean it wasn't easy by any means, but I just decided not to be hurt and got down to the business of trying to hear the emotions, which were at a roiling boil, underneath all of the attacks. She gets so nasty, criticizing me, my therapist (who is clearly giving me bad advice), and our couples therapist (who knows so little neuroscience that there is no point seeing him again because of the reeducation he'd need). And of course, my decisions are scientific and objective if and only if they agree with her. (I don't remember that step in my experimental design classes... .propagate errors, do controls, check that wife agrees!) And then this morning she wanted to do more of it! Amazingly, the biggest difference to me was that I could just let go and let her be nuts (though 'unscientific' is a total trigger... .those are bad words to me. Sad, I know! But maybe you can understand.) Because under all the hissing and biting and scratching is, I think, that she is scared that my therapy is going to somehow ruin our relationship and she is going to lose me. Which has a really sweet sentiment at the core. But the sweet idea comes at me like a Tasmanian devil with the tenacity of Rocky Balboa! (How is that for a mixed metaphor for you... .) Sigh.

Thanks for sharing. It is so good to know that I am not in a uniquely crazy situation.

Good luck saving the cat, but do watch out for those raccoons, they can be clever little buggers!

[Just A Guy]

Yep. Right there with you guys. Same-same. It sounds like I need SWOE, too. Unfortunately, I bought a different book about BPD about two years ago. Title is something about "Surviving BPD." I had it shipped to my work, hoping she wouldn't know. Kept it in my car, read it at lunch for a while. I didn't actively hide it - I just didn't bring it up for fear. Then one day she went through our old Amazon orders and saw it. Went totally ape-turds. Acted like I had committed the most horrible breach of trust ever. Especially the word "Surviving." That really hurt her in ways that I didn't expect.

Since then, she can see that she has BPD. Both of her parents do/did when she was a kid. Both of her brothers show it too sometimes as adults. She keeps her distance from all of them. She understands it in some way.

After one really bad episode (maybe 6months after I got the book) she felt terrible about the abuse she had dished out, and started to actually read the book, but never finished it.

I reference it to help me feel empathy when I retreat from her rage, but only look at it covertly so i can hide it if she comes around. Like a child hiding a comic book inside of a textbook.

Now I don't have a good way to order SWOE without going through some seriously backanded efforts to hide it from her, and it makes me feel dirty.

[PChemGuy]

Now I don't have a good way to order SWOE without going through some seriously backanded efforts to hide it from her, and it makes me feel dirty.

SWOE helps me a lot. I do recommend it. So I was thinking about your problem ordering it. (And trust me I understand! I made a new Amazon account and have these books coming to my work... .) What about a good old-fashioned brick and mortar bookstore? Even if they don't have it I am sure they could order it. Cash sale. You are in the clear. Somewhere above I did say that I like to help fix things. Just an idea! And it is more fun than grading exams, which is what I am supposed to be doing now.   

[once removed]

She feels that having any boundaries means that we don't have a relationship (like at all).
... .
then I am angry about it, but then I feel obligated to let the boundary down because I want to have a relationship and then I resent the feeling of obligation and being guilt-tripped into doing things. It is such a mess! I want off this rollercoaster ride!

youre not alone in this dynamic. i think you can see the problem. its really essential to live our values (our boundaries come from our values). when we dont, the relationship can have no structure, resentment builds at our partners, and even ourselves. its no way to live.

but i understand your frustration, and its something many of us do or have struggled with. people with BPD traits do tend to experience boundaries as rejection. the paradox is that good boundaries are critical in these relationships (in any relationship) and that people with traits of this disorder tend to push them.

can you give us specific examples of these boundaries that you are trying to set, that anger/upset her, and how youve gone about it?
 

... .she is not trying to be manipulative.

no, but i suspect there may be more to it, and it may revolve around her insecurities. you cant read her mind. she has trouble speaking it. the communication tools can help here. i would maybe pay attention to what precedes her asking what you want to do.

I tried to stay calm and be open and accepting. I said something like, "I picked the movie last night, I'd like to hear what you'd like for tonight."

nothing wrong here. good move.

Finally she said that she would like to just stay up and talk. Fine with me. Tricky bit is that the thing she wants to talk about is what have I been thinking about so much recently and why haven't I shared it.

this is kind of what i was getting at with the insecurity. it may be that she senses something off, and "what do you want to do tonight" is kind of a way of forcing a confrontation over it.

I tried to start with "I can understand that you might feel rejected or abandoned that I haven't shared what I am thinking about. Right now those thoughts are still all being sorted out and they aren't ready to share yet." Anticipating that she is probably going to interpret this in the worst way possible like -- what he means is he wants to tell me he is leaving me, but he just doesn't have the balls to say it to my face yet -- I decided to say, "But I want you to know that I am thinking about things I can do to make our relationship stronger and more supportive." I was really trying to reach out in the way that I could while staying true to my boundary. Then she got up in a huff, stomped up the stairs, with some vague threats about our relationship not continuing, because really what is the point.

really nicely done, and i think you have a good read on whats probably going through her mind. sometimes, you just have to let your partner stomp off in a huff, and self soothe.

When we woke up this morning, she was still hopping mad. She started with some thing about how I am bad for waking up too late.

its really difficult to use tools or reason with a person who is in a dysregulated state. you gave it a good shot.

listen, i think you have a pretty good handle on all of this. i understand its very new, its going to take practice, its going to take adjustment, and none of it is going to happen over night. things can really start to get easier. youre on the right track.

id ask two questions:

1. have you heard about "love languages", and do you know your wifes and your own?
2. have you heard about extinction bursts?

[PChemGuy]

Hi once removed,

Wow. Thanks for the insightful message. I really appreciate it. It is still kind of amazing to me that anyone out there "gets it", much less the many folks who have been so nice here. I have just been so confused for so long... .

its really essential to live our values (our boundaries come from our values). when we dont, the relationship can have no structure, resentment builds at our partners, and even ourselves. its no way to live.

Right. I really have a lot of introspection to do here. I feel so silly being my age and not actually having a pretty well developed idea of my values. I mean I have a lot of intuitions but that isn't really the same thing. Sigh. Work to do!

can you give us specific examples of these boundaries that you are trying to set, that anger/upset her, and how youve gone about it?

Sure. I don't even know exactly what to call this. Maybe trying to write this out will help me clarify it for myself. And insight from anybody else out there would be totally welcome! Basically, one of the big things that I am working on right now is that my partner feels entitled to my time and emotional energy. She can have an emotional breakdown at any time that she wants and she expects that I will drop everything to comfort her. If I don't then I get punished. Maybe I have to go to work (very common) well if she didn't like the way I said "have a nice day" then she bursts into tears. At this point I feel obligated to make her feel better, but also resentful that she would choose to do this right when it is the hardest for me (I have to get to work!) If I don't rearrange my schedule and take the time to apologize / grovel to make her feel better then she goes straight to rage -- what an uncaring, unempathetic person I am. What is my problem? Can't I see that she is in pain and needs my help? Maybe I get the silent treatment for the next day. Maybe I get hot anger about what a jerk I am. But that punishment comes like clockwork. So the boundary I am trying to figure out how to set is based on is that a) I care about her and her feelings -- I really want to help her feel better! -- but b) she has the responsibility to ask for my time, and c) some times I will be able to say yes but some times I will have to say no and that needs to be okay.

Your other questions about her insecurities and what happened before I think are super insightful. In the example above it isn't really that the way I said goodbye was bad. I think it is that she is feeling insecure in our relationship. She both is afraid that because I am doing things differently that it means that our relationship is going to end and she is really scared of that, and, simultaneously, she is really angry that I am doing things differently. She doesn't want me to change this. She really wants me taking care of her emotional outbursts right when they happen. Drop everything. Give her the total attention and care and empathy and soothing that she needs (which usually means a lot of apologizing). So, doing anything different from that makes her really angry. The combination of anxious about our relationship and angry that I am not taking care of her emotional needs is a toxic brew.

My plan for the next time this comes around is to go with something like, "I hear that you are really upset right now about ... .(whatever it might be). I wish I could stay to help you, but right now I can't because ... .(I have to go to work or whatever). I will be back this evening, and I hope we can talk about it then."

But this boundary for me right now is at the level of I feel angry when she does just demands my time and energy. On the one hand, I am just learning to trust that angry feeling as a sign that one of my boundaries is being trampled. In the past, I squelched the anger. I feel like a bad person when I get angry; that is how I was raised. I am really trying to unlearn that, though. On the other hand this is not coming from a value (not in a clear way at least). I am trying to sort of work back to what is the value that supports that boundary. Respect?

I certainly think that respect for other people is an important personal value of mine. I can disagree with people, think they have screwed up, think they have done wrong. But I treat them with respect. They deserve dignity and not to be mistreated. Shouting, yelling, berating, sarcasm, insults. These are not okay. If I disagree, then I try to say that in as straightforward a way as I can. I try to make it about the action and not the person. Going back to this boundary, it is (sort of) about respect. I respect that my partner has other things to do than to take care of me. If there is something that I want to talk about but it isn't a good time for her, I will say I'd like to talk about thus-and-such when you have a chance. If she can't then it isn't because she doesn't love me. She is just busy. And I want the same kind of respect back. 

Thoughts? I suspect that other folks out there might have a better way to think about this than I do right now. I am all ears!

its really difficult to use tools or reason with a person who is in a dysregulated state.

Yeah, this is a real eye-opener. I feel that I understand better the state that she is in, have more compassion for her, and I also take it out on myself less.

listen, i think you have a pretty good handle on all of this. i understand its very new, its going to take practice, its going to take adjustment, and none of it is going to happen over night. things can really start to get easier. youre on the right track.

Thanks for the positive feedback. It really means a lot.

id ask two questions:

1. have you heard about "love languages", and do you know your wifes and your own?
2. have you heard about extinction bursts?

In reverse order -- extinction bursts, yes. That things get worse before they get better, and that pattern doesn't mean that the change isn't working. I think I am at the very beginning of one of these. Sigh. It doesn't make me very happy that things might get worse. But going back isn't an option either. So... .onward and upward.

"Love languages," no I haven't heard this idea before. Quick googling goes to a book by Chapman. Is that the one that you mean? Are there other sources that are helpful?

[once removed]

So the boundary I am trying to figure out how to set is based on is that a) I care about her and her feelings -- I really want to help her feel better! -- but b) she has the responsibility to ask for my time, and c) some times I will be able to say yes but some times I will have to say no and that needs to be okay.

well, that is really the bottom line. the specific struggles you mention, i think most of us can relate to. its an understatement to say we have needy and sensitive partners. sometimes the loving thing, or the practical thing for that matter, hurt them. the heart of the matter, her insecurity, neediness, the way she reads you, you cant necessarily "fix". you can love her, and you can do so consistently, and thats the foundation of a relationship. i have similar difficulties with some of the people in my life. the advice given to me was two fold: mindfully pay attention to whats going on with me when these situations arise. you feel resentment; is there more to it? FOG plays a powerful role. the other was to start practicing (exiting a conversation for example), to start to overcome those uncomfortable feelings i felt. there may be other ways to compensate. you might tell her youll give her a call when you get to work (thats one example, i understand that can get messy fast and may just be putting off her demands) or at a specific time. or you might tell her (and show her) like you said, that you hear her, you need some time to consider it, and that youll be happy to discuss it further when you get home. just examples.

She really wants me taking care of her emotional outbursts right when they happen. Drop everything. Give her the total attention and care and empathy and soothing that she needs (which usually means a lot of apologizing). So, doing anything different from that makes her really angry.

its very true, that generally speaking, our partners have great difficulty self soothing, and that alone causes added distress, neediness leads to self loathing which gets projected back onto us, etc. its hard.

On the one hand, I am just learning to trust that angry feeling as a sign that one of my boundaries is being trampled. In the past, I squelched the anger. I feel like a bad person when I get angry; that is how I was raised. I am really trying to unlearn that, though.

good, this is in line with what i was talking about as it pertains to being mindful and paying attention to those uncomfortable emotions. im uncomfortable with anger too, and i get it. sometimes it can even be directed at ourselves, or feelings of powerlessness.

"Love languages," no I haven't heard this idea before. Quick googling goes to a book by Chapman. Is that the one that you mean? Are there other sources that are helpful?

thats the one. theres a good online quiz about it. it might even be something to discuss with your wife, attempt to get on the same page. generally, we use the love language with others that we want them to use with us... .in order to show them how to love us. makes sense, since most of us operate under "treat others as youd want to be treated". but knowing this, knowing the differences, assuming there are any, in your wife, could give you a lot to work with.

so how are things going PChemGuy? any luck with the new strategies?

[PChemGuy]

well, that is really the bottom line. the specific struggles you mention, i think most of us can relate to.

That right there has already been such a big help to me. I really appreciate it.

you feel resentment; is there more to it? FOG plays a powerful role.

You are absolutely right about the FOG. For me, I (way deep down somewhere) am afraid that I'll lose her, and I will be alone. That if she is upset, then it is clearly me that upset her, and why would she stay with someone who upset her so deeply. Part of me is really afraid that she'll leave and I'll be alone. So then I feel obligated to respond. And it is that sense of obligation that leads to the resentment. When she gets upset I get this really ... .squirmy feeling. (Sorry! Don't know what else to call it!) And I think it comes from the FOG. Fear, and I need to fix it so it will be ok. It is so hard to experience that discomfort but not get hooked into fixing her feelings. I am trying to let her feelings be her feelings, and I'm making some progress I think. It doesn't feel nice in the thick of it! But afterwords I feel more in control of me, and that is satisfying.
 

the other was to start practicing (exiting a conversation for example), to start to overcome those uncomfortable feelings i felt.

These are great ideas. I'll work on that. Makes sense.

thats the one. theres a good online quiz about it. it might even be something to discuss with your wife, attempt to get on the same page. generally, we use the love language with others that we want them to use with us... .in order to show them how to love us. makes sense, since most of us operate under "treat others as youd want to be treated". but knowing this, knowing the differences, assuming there are any, in your wife, could give you a lot to work with.

This actually sort of came up recently. I can imagine that it might help. I have tried to express that there are some things that are really effective in helping me feel safe -- I really respond strongly to touch. Hand on my shoulder. Pat my hand. Anything like that is so powerful to me. And like you said, I have tried that back to my wife, but ... .nope, no effect. Different style. I tried asking what helped her, but I couldn't get an answer that I understood. Oh well. Maybe the quiz will help... .

so how are things going PChemGuy? any luck with the new strategies?

Thanks for asking. (Folks at this board are so considerate... .)

I am doing better than I was a few weeks ago. Recognizing the patterns of behavior (from us both) that fit the BPD model has just been a wake up call. I see what is going on and feel so much less confused. That is a huge help. Reading other folk's stories here and seeing how similar they are to my life, how I feel, and what I am going through... .revelatory. I feel so much less alone.

The new techniques and strategies are a mixed bag. I am clearly still a beginner. My wife has picked up on the ways that I try to validate her feelings without necessarily validating what she is saying or claiming. And now she is starting to get pissed about it. She sees that I am not agreeing with her and, even though I am not arguing with her (avoiding JADE), she still gets angry. Part of it is that I am still fighting off feelings of anxiety on my side, so it is hard to be totally relaxed. I think my body language and tone are still pretty tense and she picks up on that as still being rejecting. So I am trying to breathe and relax and be empathetic as I can.

I haven't practiced the let's-talk-about-it-this-evening boundary. I think my wife is (over)reacting to the changes I am making. I feel like she is going into a "he won't talk like I want, when I want, so why should I even try but I won't be happy about it". It sort of feels like progress. Well, it is different anyway. But there is this panic in her eye that is hard not to react to. So, again, i am trying to stay calm and hold on to my own reality.

Ok, out of time for tonight. Thanks so much for all the insights.

[PChemGuy]

In thinking about what I said earlier

My wife has picked up on the ways that I try to validate her feelings without necessarily validating what she is saying or claiming. And now she is starting to get pissed about it. She sees that I am not agreeing with her and, even though I am not arguing with her (avoiding JADE), she still gets angry.

I guess where I am is that I hoped that, by validating her feelings, I could get a positive response from her. That she would feel heard and loved and respected. I hoped that would then make our interactions more positive.

But that isn't what I have gotten as a response. Now, she gets frustrated because I am not agreeing with her, but I am not fighting either. She really doesn't like that. I don't feel like it is any worse of an interaction, but it isn't necessarily a whole lot better. Has anybody else experienced this?

I am sticking with the approach, even though it didn't get me exactly what I wanted. I do feel that it is a better way to show that I hear what is going on for a person and not invalidating it, even if unintentionally. So I am going to keep working on it.

[once removed]

That right there has already been such a big help to me. I really appreciate it.
You are absolutely right about the FOG. For me, I (way deep down somewhere) am afraid that I'll lose her, and I will be alone. That if she is upset, then it is clearly me that upset her, and why would she stay with someone who upset her so deeply. Part of me is really afraid that she'll leave and I'll be alone.

i think at the end of the day, we have to live in such a way that (to say nothing about our deeply held commitment) we are willing to live our values and be authentic to them, even if it means losing our partners, and knowing that if it happens, we will still be whole. if fear is what drives us, fear can rule our relationship, and yes, we will resent our partners, and we may resent ourselves.

I tried asking what helped her, but I couldn't get an answer that I understood.

can you summarize what she said, even if you had trouble understanding it? our partners arent always the greatest communicators, sometimes we have to do a lot of reading between the lines to get to the root of whats driving them.

She sees that I am not agreeing with her and, even though I am not arguing with her (avoiding JADE), she still gets angry.

a part of it may be that she doesnt feel she has an outlet to blow off steam. our partners get overloaded, and though its dysfunctional, even say, a five hour circular argument can help offload it in certain ways. personally, i like to take out frustration on bad guys in video games   but id be frustrated if i didnt have that outlet.

 Part of it is that I am still fighting off feelings of anxiety on my side, so it is hard to be totally relaxed. I think my body language and tone are still pretty tense and she picks up on that as still being rejecting. So I am trying to breathe and relax and be empathetic as I can.

and part of it could be this too. i used to get a huge sense of dread as soon as i heard my ex start a line of questioning. id try to shut it down, and it only escalated. any time i was genuinely unmoved, calm and assertive, she tended to mirror that back - it was a non issue. much easier said than done.

I haven't practiced the let's-talk-about-it-this-evening boundary. I think my wife is (over)reacting to the changes I am making.

dont hit her with too much too soon, any more than you are able to learn and practice too much too soon. so much of this stuff is really awkward for us to practice as we learn, and its certainly awkward to be on the receiving end for our partners. change in a partner is scary. shifts dynamics, that, even if dysfunctional, are often part of the foundation of the relationship.

I guess where I am is that I hoped that, by validating her feelings, I could get a positive response from her. That she would feel heard and loved and respected. I hoped that would then make our interactions more positive.

i think a lot of people, when theyre learning the tools, expect swift or dramatic results, and that their partner will respond positively, and then they get very discouraged when this doesnt happen, because god knows theyve tried everything else.

the tools are about our attitude, and they are about conflict, and some of them are about supporting our partners, and some of them are about how we cope. they are in no way a guarantee to change our partners, although quite often, over time, our partners adjust, and even follow our lead.

this is the reason we emphasize "dont be invalidating". because you cant validate your way to making your partner happy. you cant (usually) end a dysregulated episode with validation, and you dont necessarily want to try. a lot of us can be very invalidating toward our partners, sometimes in more obvious ways, sometimes in less obvious ways like tone or body language or facial expression (which our partners are hypersensitive to). invalidation makes things worse. learning to avoid it helps stop the bleeding.

thats hardly to say validation doesnt have its uses. it goes hand in hand with Listening with Empathy. it can defuse conflict before it goes too far. it builds trust. it is loving and supportive. its a good relationship skill to have in general.

the most common problem i read is how awkward it can be at first. a lot of us tend to come off as very stiff or robotic, as if we are imitating a therapist, it does not come off as sincere or genuine, and none of this is lost on our partners. the more you practice, the more natural you will be at it, the more effective it will be.

do stick with it, just dont expect to be a panacea/over rely on it, and do use other tools. learning and practicing SET might be a good next step. validation is part of SET, and so is stating calmly but assertively, our perspective or our truth.

meanwhile, since she doesnt like this change and isnt getting the response shes wanting/used to, you might look for areas in which you can compensate a bit. acts of thoughtfulness and love, big or small. reassurance. that sort of thing.