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Author Topic: How do you validate when you are angry and feel manipulated into it?  (Read 857 times)
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« on: April 07, 2018, 07:49:06 AM »

So I am  picking up from a thread from Felicia13.

My BPD D wants validation for everything. So if she starts a fight with a sibling, she feels I need to validate her feelings if she gets hurt in the cross fires. (words not physical fighting)

So this gets me angry. I say inside to myself "Are you serious, she started the fight and wants ME to validate that HER feelings were hurt by a sister 7 years younger?" Why I can't I show her that she started it, I am NOT in that fight and they know better and that they should walk away from each other?

My youngest is in recovery from anorexia, and I know when there is upset in the home, this worsens her anxiety.

I am very angry at my BPD D. I have lost compassion I really have. Yes maybe I "let" her abuse me. And why do I have to  be like her therapist and ALWAYS be in "Therapeutic mode". It is exhausting, frightening and weird.

Some people, I know, have an easier time to validate, I don't. I also think because I mourn our lives due to both D's, I don't have the reserves. My younger AN D, "lets me" Parent her. She trusts me to take care of her as I brought her out of the depths of her illness. BPD D is sneaky, does not share anything with me, lies, yells no matter what. She says it is all my fault, because she has learned that at DBT and in her psychology courses. So if she has THIS mindset, how can I help at all. I can change MY attitudes and behaviour, but REALLY why is it on MY SHOULDERS?

Yes I am the adult. But... .
Oh yeah I am not  supposed to be human, I am a mother!
Sorry I am really mad at feeling WE all have to change, make their lives better or easier and set boundaries and we are the adults etc... .we have to know exactly what to say and when to validate even when we are sad depressed, etc... .

The therapists may give you support, but they are NOT with me in the moment. SO yah it is easier to validate when you are emotionally detached.

I just needed to vent. Some of you sound like you are cool, calm and collected all the time and that seems impossible to me.

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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2018, 08:21:44 AM »

I will add I know I need to let go of the anger, maybe I cannot right now. No matter what I have tried, and yes I have read a lot and trying everything I have read and trying to "practice" it. Learning about AN and tackling that demon and having survived, I am a superparent.
I can do anything, I know that. 
I just don't know, if she attacks me all the time how you can get the "distance" so that the interactions soften.



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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2018, 08:41:51 AM »

Hi please,

I am just on my way out the door to visit the inlaws, but just wanted to quickly reply that I have felt EXACTLY as you do now!  I think many, if not most, of the people on here have...   I understand, I really do.  I have literally lied down on the floor and kicked and screamed... .Once by myself and once with my husband there, which, seeing the look on his face, I think was the moment when I knew this could not go on.

For me, instead of putting all the focus on what I needed to do for my daughter I decided to put me and the rest of the family first.  I, too, was VERY frustrated with therapists who seemed to focus on what WE needed to do, rather than helping daughter regulate her emotions.

I purposely took the reaction of my interactions with her.  I was kind of robotic at first when I dealt with her, but I felt better not getting all riled up over something I had no control over.  I ignored idiotic stuff she said, and lies (because she lied a lot, and still does lie) and tried to use SET.  I could SUPPORT the good decisions she was making, I could EMPATHIZE that some things made her feel lousy (even if I didn't think it was a big deal... I kept my lips zipped about my opinion), and best of all... I could tell my TRUTH... (what I was and was not prepared to do/deal with anymore)

And like you said in an earlier post, progress is anything but linear... . 

Husband is chomping at my heals to leave but I just wanted to say that you are doing great, please.  We need to question all these things, and you can also cherry pick what works for you.  It is exhausting, it is frustrating and it is damn unfair.  There will be no cure, it will never go away completely... .but it can get better...   It has for me and my daughter.  A year ago I was kicking that floor... .and then I found this forum.

  MM

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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2018, 09:02:11 AM »

MomMae,

Thanks for the quick response. I hear you and I will heed your words.

I am here to learn from those who have come before. To share your experiences, is to give back and help those of us (ME,ME,ME) heal and have a better life.
I understand what you are saying.

I will keep prodding along.
  Smiling (click to insert in post)
XXX
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2018, 12:06:43 PM »

Your are wondering how to validate your daughter when you are angry and feel manipulated into it. You feel that maybe you are supposed to be like a therapist and validate your child all the time. Part of being a great parent which I think you are, is you validate your children enough so that they develop healthy self esteem yet there will be many times when your child will not be validated the way they would like, and the  child learns to deal with those times because overall they are supported and validated by their parent enough of the time. It is healthy for your child to see you are human, and get frustrated sometimes when you feel your child does not give back. Yes, it is important for your child to learn to give and take, no matter what their challenges are. So, it is not really all on your shoulders. It is great role modeling to sometimes say, right now I feel tired of this behavior and can we talk about this when I am really listen to what you have to say? I admire how you are doing everything you can to love and care for two challenging children. We are here to listen and always let us know how we can be most helpful.
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 01:11:38 PM »

Hi there please

Boy I’ve not always been super calm!  Like mommae says, I’ve had some bad black pit of moments. I’m not a saint and I’ve stories that’d make your hair curl.

For me, I can’t validate if I’m angry. I guess I just im so far detached now that I don’t react like I did. I rarely get angry but my son27 now lives independently and I’ve got breathing space. You’ve got it tough Please and yes you’re doing exactly the right things by posting and questioning. I’m so glad you’re here.

Each of our situations is different, we are unique and what works for one may not work for the other. Also, being on the forum allows us to explore other ways that we may have not considered. It’s about trusting your gut, taking what feels comfortable for you and your family. There’s no one size fits all here.

You’re absolutely right, what about us?  I started to put myself first and do things that made me happy. This showed my family that I mattered and I got happier. Our own well being comes first and, for me, that felt selfish.

I tried to do too much too fast and felt overwhelmed. When they say baby steps, it was achingly slow.

So to answer your question.  I can’t validate when I’m angry. I try hard not to validate the invalid.

How can we help you best?  Is it your daughter’s demands to be validated, her behaviour and your reaction or that you’d like both of your daughters to give you some peace once in a while?  I think SET will help too by the way. .

One step at a time. We can’t do everything at once and you sound frazzled. I think I may not have been as supportive as I could have been to you and for that I apologise - hugs to you. 

LP
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2018, 01:43:07 PM »

Hi there Please

I so understand the anger you refer to in your posts.  I am angry, too!  We have put up with 40 years of our daughter and her BPD behaviours.   We were held hostage for so long, putting up with so much, for fear of losing contact with those precious grandchildren.  To tell you the truth, don't know if we could have done anything different in those years. 

So, yes, now we are angry.  I guess anger can be an emotion that one wallows in... .or... .it can be an emotion that gives one a kick-start to make changes...   We are feeling the "kick-start"... .and the feeling of empowerment that comes with it.  We will always love our daughter.  Like her?  Not so much!  Nothing written in stone that you have to bestow both on anyone.

I, too, have probably read the books you have read.  Of course, parents are an influence on their children.  I will buy into that.  The thing is, we are ALL a product of "nature" (the nature we are born with... .and no two babies come from the same womb identical in nature) and "nurture" (the care, or lack of, we receive along the way).  So many combinations of both... .the luck of the draw as to what we get.  The rest is up to us.  While influences are all around us, we make our own decisions... .good or bad... .with consequences that follow... .good or bad.  No one to "blame" or praise in the end but ourselves. 

When you write about feeling the weight and anger of it having to be YOU who makes changes.  Please, that is a good thing!  What you've been doing hasn't brought about any change.  You are feeling miserable.  You want to feel better... .so YOU make changes... .and it makes YOU feel good (empowered!).

I am glad you are with us, Please.  The emotions you write of are raw... .emotions so many of us here can relate to.  Frustrating, to say the least.  I did smile when I read one of your other posts in another thread about walking into a room and seeing that your daughter had cleaned up the dishes.  WooHoo!  There you go.  SHE made a choice. 

So nice to read that your other daughter is well on her way to winning her battle with anorexia.  What an extra burden that has been on you and your family.  Both girls have been vying for your attention.  The pie is only so big and I can well imagine that not much has been left for you.  Hope your anger helps you take what you need... .leaving you more refreshed to handle the rest.

None of us ever thought we would be participating in a forum like this... .but here we are.  Lucky, lucky us, huh?  Well, it makes me feel good, knowing heads nod when I write of my woes.  I am not feeling isolated.  No one in our circle of family/friends can relate to what has happened within our family.  Nice to feel the hugs I get here... .and I am sending a much-deserved one to you. 

((HUGS)

Huat

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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2018, 05:07:43 PM »

Thanks to all for responding.

Zachira, you stated Your are wondering how to validate your daughter when you are angry and feel manipulated into it. You feel that maybe you are supposed to be like a therapist and validate your child all the time."
I see you are validating my feelings.

 She seems to want/need that and if I cannot do it the way she wants, then I "fail" I feel I have been set up . Unrealistic expectations on her part so I will always fail and there you have it, it is mother's fault again.
  

I feel it is constant, maybe that is a better word. There is NO break. I have to be "on" for her in the home trying to "do" my life. She wants constant attention etc...

We did go out for high tea with  a friend to a lovely place. We had a good time, I think.

She did glare at me a few times and scold me if she felt I was laughing too loudly. My friend and I were sharing stories that were so funny. D laughed too but seemed reserved.

I think she needed to see me as a "real person" not just her mom. She saw me having a nice time with my friend and her. My friend really engaged with her and I think she liked it.

Huat, sorry it was not MY D that cleaned up the kitchen  Smiling (click to insert in post) although I wish it were.My D says that as she cleans up at university then she does NOT need to clean up here. (sigh)

 Huat, My D with anorexia is doing well and it is a biological brain issue. She is recovering well. I just meant to bring her up in that with her illness, I treated her. And that she let me be the parent.
I think for me to be empowered right now means a break for me for not just a few days but weeks from BPD D.When she is not home, our life here is normal. No fights, everyone enjoying each other - the other 2 kids do not fight at all.  

BPD D does not let me be her parent ie counsel, or console her, share nice moments- She implies I don't know how to parent. So I feel stuck.I do not tell her what to do. She is the first to say she is an adult and I do let her "live her life". I may not agree with her choices, she is really not doing herself or others harm, and I feel that she thinks or somehow knows ,I disapprove but I never say or give an opinion.I just say "oh really?, Oh that is interesting, what do you think?"
 I think I am trying to do my best and I am not sure what is NOT working.

Lollypop,
What do I think I need:
1) What do YOU say when the child says you have to validate something that is not really an issue?  I need concrete examples or words that I can see. I can't just say "oh" and let it go, she will not let it go.
2) How to stop the rages in the middle of them? I don't even know how they start to be honest.
3) How to walk away from the conflict? Then how do I come back to her when things are calm? She likes to say in the middle of conflict/rages, "if you walk away now, give me a  time that we can discuss this" I don't even know what the issue is!
It does seem to revolve around "you don't validate my feelings. You are NOT changing, YOU need to change. I am changing ie doing DBT.  You need to spend all your time with me. Give me all your attention all the time AND I hate you, you did this to me and you abandoned me- but there is no evidence of that at all! So to come back during a quiet moment is to set the ball on fire again and the same cycle continues.

My youngest does give me peace and she is loving so there are no issues with the relationship with her. It is thriving. I bring up her issues only to show that  I KNOW  how to parent a very ill child, and be there for my children, and be emotionally present- she is NOT a burden at all. But older D does not allow me to.- that is what I feel.I am trying to convey that I have been through a very difficult time, and I did not just survive it, I crushed it AND saved my younger D's life. If I could do that, why is the other relationship with BPD not working. Yes different issue, different child I get it.

I try to practice SET with her . But it does not come naturally
Today
D called me screaming: what do I wear to tea
Me: anything you wish - jeans and sweater?
D: which sweater
Me ( I don't know what she has) : Oh the grey one
D: which grey one?
Me: I am wearing pants and sweater it is cold.
D; I did not ask you what you were wearing'
Me: well what do you want to wear
D: I don't know I am stressed
Me: Yes you have exams too. Do you not wish to go to tea?
D: I did not say that did I?
and it goes on
She was screaming and crying
It ended by me saying that she would wear the grey sweater, and red leggings.
Oh man !I don't know what is in her closet.

I am sorry I seem to be complaining all the time here.
Thanks for giving me your ears

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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2018, 07:01:27 PM »

Ok first, Please, you're my favorite.  Your honesty resonates with me. 
Second, listen to this- spent the day with my mom, 86, telling her about the BPD diagnosis and the recent effort last night by my daughter to clog the toilet so it overflowed with her excrement. 

My mom is one of those greatest generation women.   She said my daughter needs to clean the toilet ad scrub the floor regardless of what a psychiatrist says.  She said my daughter wants all the power and who wouldn't? She told me I'm not selfish enough and I ought to go get myself a haircut when my daughter is abusive. 

Also she said psychiatrists go into the field because they're trying to figure out what's wrong with themselves . 

Please, I'm with you all the way.  It may not be the most popular route but I'm not going to validate / "must've been stressful to watch your poops spill over the top of the toilet!"

No.   She's gonna clean it up.  Aaauuurrggghh.
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2018, 07:48:35 PM »

OH Faith Spring, So so sorry!
Yes she will have to clean it up. When I hear what she has done,I think of my own D and I get frightened to tell her to clean it up herself. The fight that will occur. I wonder if I would have just cleaned it myself to save the fight or her doing a half job and not cleaning it properly. Then I would still have to clean it up properly.
WOW that situation brings up so much emotion in me.

I know what she should do(intellectual) but scared to tell her (emotions).

You know, I really did enjoy my D today. I want to see that more. How do I bring it out more regularly or is that hers to own with her therapy? Was it because we were in public, was it real, is that who she really is?
I love my D, I love my D, I love my D.I just don't know who she is and how I need to react/interact with her

We may not have the relationship I thought we had, she may not be who I thought she was (it was a shock  when all this happened). Maybe we can hope for something  that is reasonable and OK.
Really a plain and boring life seems like a luxury right now.

XXX
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2018, 06:31:01 AM »

I think of my own D and I get frightened to tell her to clean it up herself... .
I know what she should do(intellectual) but scared to tell her (emotions).

I used to be really fearful of confronting my son. Learning to better interact helped me manage the situation - not manage him but manage myself.

I guess it looks to others that by changing myself and how I react to him looks like that he has the power. That somehow I’ve given in, that I bend to him and am like a doormat. Nothing is further from the truth.

In reality, I’ve armed myself up with power communication toolkit, armed myself up with the knowledge about BPD that helps me not react. I took control back from him by doing this. I can’t be manipulated, I don’t make decisions based on fear, obligation or guilt.  

If I have to have a discussion (say he didn’t pay me towards his agreed weekly contribution to his living expenses) then I know how to approach it in a way that he understands and feels my “ask” is reasonable and fair.  SET and DEARMAN are my best friends.

Excerpt
I just don't know who she is and how I need to react/interact with her

I know I’m repeating myself here but it was fundamental to changing our situation. There was soo much wrong. I had a drug addicted depressed non functioning son who could do little more than sit in his room for days on end who felt completely detached from all of us.

I set my number one priority as “to improve my core relationship with my son”.  It was simply quite amazing to be able to see tiny improvements as he warmed up and relaxed. With a better relationship we both felt we had something to build on, we were more resilient so when there was a minor disagreement it didn’t escalate to him running out of the house.  Quite honestly, I did flip out one day but that crisis initiated him moving out in a positive way. Clouds do have silver linings sometimes.

Excerpt
We may not have the relationship I thought we had, she may not be who I thought she was (it was a shock  when all this happened). Maybe we can hope for something  that is reasonable and OK.
Really a plain and boring life seems like a luxury right now.

I wish I could hug you right now. You’ve seen the truth. It’s about finding your own way forwards to a happier life, despite the problems. It can be done.

I encourage you to get yourself a plan. I really thought about what I wanted to achieve at the beginning and it really helped me stay focussed when times got tough. It sorted out where or if I needed to have a boundary or limits set around them. The rest of the stuff was in fact small stuff that could be looked at later.

Baby steps. You’re doing exactly the right thing and I think you’re doing brilliantly. Take heart that you’ve had a really good time together - that’s worth it’s weight in gold.

Hugs

LP


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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2018, 07:45:22 AM »

Thank you LP,
I will apologise for my bluntness before you read this. I like to be direct and it is due to want of clarity.  I am pushing in my posts as I want the hard answers to hard questions.

Now when I read about DEARMAN it actually says "how to get what you want". The youtube video I watched discussed a child needing money to go to a concert.And having to ask parents for the money.

Now I may be naive about this, but is that not manipulative? Now the examples I watched, make it out to be that the "other person" may not wish to do what the primary person wants, but to use DEARMAN, is to have the other person do or give them what they want? It does discuss negotiation too.
Is it a tool for those who cannot communicate their needs and wants to others? Ok I understand that.

I also have a question on validation as brought up by Zachira.
I agree that we validate as parents all the time. I have three children. And yes we cannot validate "perfectly 100% of the time", and hopefully over time the child leaves us with "good enough" parenting and validation to live their lives. So with BPD, there is that child who has this predisposition to BPD, so even though I have felt that I validated them as best as I could all their lives and they still get BPD, how does that work?  So is it still an "invalidating household?" The other kids are OK and I parented similarly based on the child's needs that I perceived at that time.
I have not heard a direct answer to "is it my fault" on this board and not that I want that, I guess what needs to be said is that no matter wha,t you will never know.  I believe that even with perfect parenting bad stuff can happen.

Multifactorial is a better answer and no not all come from the invalidating household. Also some who have been in invalidating households do not haveBPD they use their trauma to better themselves and really do amazing things. I think of Oprah here as we all know her and her story to some degree. So to say they come from invalidation feels very punitive to all around them. We don't blame parents for children with diabetes, or cancer, why can't we look at it that way?
They were biologically predisposed and then something happened and boom.
 
What my point is, is that, you may validate, or feel that you are, but it is still the perception of the child who FEELS no matter what ,that they were invalidated- then the "experts" say yes it was your environment and parents- very basic and simplistic and a cop-out for a lot of diagnoses in the psychiatric world. And for that matter, no one really meets and examines the family of origin anyway- how can you do that. Unless you live in my home, how do you really know what happened? It is based on the perception of a person who sees the world differently than you might. Ie there is no REAL truth it is only perception.  So maybe for those kids are you saying that 'we did not validate them to the extent they needed?" So I could never know, could I- what the future would bring? 
 
Maybe these points are moot as does not change the present or affect the future. I however, ponder this a lot when my BPD D yells at me that I caused all this. She has the "evidence" don't you know, as taught at the university and through her DBT T. I have taken the blame too much and have to learn to separate that from me. Maybe that would help me.  Now if the "experts" really understood that , the parents could participate better without feeling,perceiving blame. That way we could harness the strengths in the family of origin (not to focus on the bad) to help and support these people?
Thinking out loud.


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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2018, 07:52:45 AM »

Update, with all humility: toilet still filthy and my girl is only escalating the situation. 

I will clean the toilet myself this morning after I post here.  So it may be a very long post.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am torn between listening to my old-school mom and listening to DEARMAN. 

Sucks that either way, my instinct as a mom isn't something I can trust. 

I'll clean the toilet because I love our home and want it to be safe and clean.  Plus the filth is a terrible reminder of what's happening here. 

I'll leave her a note explaining she won't be using my car and money money today, and she full knows why.  I may sign it as DEARMAN just to throw her off. 

Kidding.
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2018, 07:58:11 AM »

"We don't blame parents for children with diabetes, or cancer, why can't we look at it that way?"

Awesome, just awesome.  Thank you.  

One of my older sisters is schizophrenic.  Imagine if her docs believed her perceptions and validated them. 

I'm not sure validating the perception of a person diagnosed with having a perception problem is the right way to go. 
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2018, 08:26:32 AM »

Faith Spring,

So sorry about the toilet. I actually feel stressed for you.
Yes post here again. I want/need to know what happened.
Yes I get that as a mom all the regular views on parenting seem to go out the window. We need to have consequences as that is real life, however when we do we are attacked and I still don't know how to walk away and let them just deal with it. As it is the bathroom that affects everyone and besides that is dirty.
Leaving a kid's room dirty or not doing their laundry is not a big deal to me. If they run out of clothes, well they will figure it out. Toilet is a different level.

Thanks for your support.
XXX
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2018, 08:46:59 AM »

Hi, I will give an update on how today goes and I'm very grateful you even care to know. 

She hasn't woken up but expects to be driven to the market today and buy her own food with my money.  So I left her a note explaining that's not gonna happen because of her blatant disrespect and threat.  (On Friday after school she said that my husband and I were not to watch tv in the living room for the weekend and if we did, she'd take matters into her own hands.  Before I could respond she plugged her ears and screamed.  So I just stood there trying to remember what SET stood for.  And my husband and I watched the Yankees Friday night in the living room.  That's when she holed up in the bathroom and laughed while the toilet overflowed). 

That was probably too long of a sentence to put in parentheses. 
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2018, 09:26:59 AM »

Hi please

No need to apologise and I get the bluntness cos that’s how I am too. The touchy feely is a challenge for me.

I use DEARMAN when I need to deal with conflict. Since I first used it and it worked like an absolute dream I’ve used it in other areas of my life. I won’t be without it and, up til now, I’ve not needed to go beyond the R bevause ny son couldn’t process his thoughts, look forward and foresee a problem to allow us to negotiate. He’d agree, then negotiation came later when he failed to do what I wanted.

An example. My son was 24 and starting to work regularly about three days per week.  My second priority was for him to learn financial management skills. I’d already started by not getting involved in anything to do with his money, debt chasing letters or such things.  He was an adult and just because he was in a mess didn’t mean I should step in to”help”. I let him bumble along and then decided it was time he started to contribute towards his living expenses.

I described the facts (working regularly, provided with free board and food up til now), explained I felt it time, asserted a monthly amount, reasserted the amount and date I wanted to be paid. Nicely and lovingly done. He agreed because he saw it as fair at that particular moment.

Now I chose my moment. He wasn’t hungry, tired or overly stressed. I was friendly.

The day arrived - he didn’t have the money.

DEARMAN again. I said “you know paying monthly hasn’t worked. Let’s go to weekly payment”.  Re-assert... .I’d really appreciate you paying me on time so we can get along a lot better”.   he says ok.

Day arrives. He does a merry dance, avoidance, excuses. I stick to my ground. SET used followed by smiley, friendly “I need paying so please  let me have the money tomorrow”.  I’m firm and loving.

It took him 6 weeks to pay me without me having to ask. I did a dance!

He’d go a few months then hit some emotional turmoil and he’d forget.  Back to DEARMAN. Remaining flexible to whatever was going on but I always got his weekly payment, even if he paid double the following week.

I haven’t watched any videos. I don’t see DEARMAN as a manipulation but a way to communicate a problem and how I want it to be resolved.  Of course it has to be fair to both parties.  It has to be reasonable.

I can’t tell you how much confidence it gave me. I gained some respect off him too.

I’ve learnt it takes 5-6 attempts in most things by my son.

I get your anger, I felt deeply resentful at being blamed by others for my sons behaviour. It’s a quiet judgement by others sometimes unsaid but I can see the look in their eyes.

My favourite phrase for a couple of years was “we’re all just doing the best we can right now”.

Accepting my sons very real limitations to cope with the everyday life blips was important for me. I look back and see I made mistakes but I did my best. I can’t say any more than that to him really. It’s good to reflect but I don’t spend too long looking backwards or forwards as i see it as wasted energy.

The best that I can do for my family is try to demonstrate what it means to take care of myself. I’ve come some way forward in this as they understand that I matter just as much as they do. My life doesn’t fully revolve around them - I have a life and interests of my own. They got interested in me.

It’s just exhausting isn’t it. I know you’ve had such fantastic success with your younger daughter. My two sons are like chalk and cheese and I still find it difficult to validate my younger son and he sees that as being that I love him less.  There’s a competitiveness that’s unbelievable.

What do you do for yourself please? Do you have support?

LP

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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2018, 09:53:28 AM »

Thanks LP,
I will read more and find a way to practise these skills.

I will be meeting with the psychologist who manages the DBT clinic where D goes. It is a general information session on DBT and not at all to discuss D.  They will probably know who my D is (same surname) and I am worried my fear, anger and resentment will show and then, there you go, they will "see" that I am "invalidating" and so there is proof. AAAAH


Oh as to what do I do for myself? I don't know anymore. I used to love to workout. But I am tired. I really think I am clinically depressed so the fatigue is mental anguish. I used to love to shop, now there is no pleasure in that. I Don't have anymore friends I am lonely. I have given up my life for my family in the last
 year. For the youngest, who is now fine and continually for the oldest BPD D.

Are there any DBT T here on this board to give some input?
Thanks again
XXX
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2018, 10:00:42 AM »

As for biological influence on cause of BPD
please see
www.psychiatrictimes.com/special-reports/neurobiology-borderline-personality-disorder/page/0/2

I Like this
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2018, 10:07:42 AM »

Here is another...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B038GUtcyLMsbXRaeVRlT0tuTjVoQjMtY0pDQldzQW9Td3hF/view
I hope these work sorry I am not a techy
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2018, 11:28:44 AM »

Regarding your question on validation and BPD, every person is unique, and both environment and genetics are important. Parents do not choose what genes their children get, and severe mental illness is a combination of genes, and no two people with the same diagnosis are the same. For years, bad mothering was blamed as the cause of schizophrenia. We now know that schizophrenia is clearly caused by genes, and that family therapy is what can make a difference, because a supportive family member helps to create a more stable environment for the person with schizophrenia. Individual therapy for schizophrenia is not really all that helpful without family therapy, because the genetic component of the disease is so strong.
In some cases of BPD, there is a strong genetic component. In other cases, early childhood trauma plays a strong role. There are many parents who post on this board, who have a child that is severely affected by BPD, and there is no early childhood trauma and the parents are doing everything they can to help their child.
I admire how you are determined to do everything you can to help your child. I know it is painful, when other people who are not the parent of your child judge your parenting without understanding or knowing what is really going on. I have deep respect for you and how you keep looking for ways to help your child. Your child does stand a chance of getting better because you keep trying, and you really never know when and if things will turn around.
Do everything you can to take care of yourself. It is so overwhelming to raise a child with BPD, and sometimes you have to put your needs first to be able to weather the storm of raising such a challenging child.
We are here for you and we care. Keep us posted on what is happening. We are learning from you, and you are helping others who are struggling with raising a child with BPD.
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2018, 02:03:45 PM »

 
Excerpt
So is it still an "invalidating household?" The other kids are OK and I parented similarly based on the child's needs that I perceived at that time.
I have not heard a direct answer to "is it my fault" on this board and not that I want that, I guess what needs to be said is that no matter wha,t you will never know.  I believe that even with perfect parenting bad stuff can happen.

It is funny, I was having a very similar conversation to this with my husband yesterday, as I get frustrated with an invalidating family being one of the things that are blamed for BPD.  I wish they would take that outdated and antiquated notion and throw it out the window.  It serves no purpose but to make the very people who are trying to help their child with BPD feel defensive and horrible, not to mention it is super-judgemental. 

Also, as can be seen very clearly by what Please describes with her DD, it can plant incorrect and damaging ideas into the fragile minds of the person struggling with BPD.  This also happened with my DD as some of the "professionals" were very uninformed and were determined to find a tie in to her upbringing.  One nurse was dead set on my husband being abusive (he is NOT), even telling my daughter she probably blocked out the memories... .While my daughter was in the psych ward, this nurse, my d's dedicated day nurse, kept wanting to know why ":)ad" wasn't coming to visit, she only saw me, Mom, there ... .this supposedly showing the uncaring letch Dad was.  Thank goodness, daughter got angry at this and told the nurse her dad was there every night visiting that he WORKED days and that he was not abusive.  Now if daughter was easier manipulated at that point in time, I can only imagine the nightmare we would be living! Scary indeed... .I am shocked that presumptions are so easy to find in the field of mental illness.

I do not at all believe that our family was an invalidating environment for my daughter.  If anything, it was more invalidating to my two other nonBPD children as I had to devote a lot of time to my ultra sensitive middle child.  From the moment she was born, she was a sensitive child... .the first nurse to change her diaper even said "This one has attitude"... .and so it began.  She started making strange with everyone except me at the two weeks of age.  It even took her a long time to warm up to her dad!  My daughter herself, now in DBT and contemplative on her own sensitivity, said to me, "I must have been a frustrating child to parent sometimes".  I could honestly say, "no, you weren't.  I wasn't frustrated, I understood.  Probably because I am more sensitive than most myself.  You took extra time, and I had to put a lot of thought into parenting you, but I was not frustrated".  And that is the god's honest truth.  I was her therapist, cheerleader, consultant and mentor... .but I didn't mind, this is what she needed to thrive.  I called her the "Little engine that could"... .to remind her that she was capable, and taught her how to rewire some of her self-defeating thoughts.  I now realize that I was teaching her CBT (something that I had always used on myself) before I even knew what that meant.  And it worked, she DID thrive, and she was mostly a very happy child.  But guess what, then as she grew into adolescence, and the INVALIDATING OUTSIDE WORLD started to have more sway over her and her perceptions than her family did.  There was the internet, peer pressure, the media, and the often cruel "girl world"... .  Stuff no parent can control, even if you follow all the advice of the experts.  We tried.  I could go on all day about trying to futilely control her exposure to the internet... .futile because although she could not freely use it at home (had to plug in), it was available everywhere else - at school, in the community.  I warned her of the dangers of the internet (as advised) - who knew that this gives some kids very bad ideas instead of protecting them, which is especially true of those with an undefined sense of self as seen in BPD.

So the long and the short of it is, I refuse to take the blame for my daughter's mental illness.  She was born this way, into a good family in an invalidating world.  No family is perfect, but it is also not responsible for causing mental illness.  Putting the family on the defensive is extremely counterproductive to helping the patient and serves no purpose. The medical community needs to accept this and stop trying to find blame when there is none to be found.  No wonder people wait until things are really bad to seek help. 

And that is my rant for the day  Smiling (click to insert in post)

 
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2018, 02:53:02 PM »

Oh Mommae,
THANK YOU
It is what I needed! It speaks to what I am feeling.
I really feel it is a biological issue, yes compounded by environment. Yes My D's school and "friends and peer pressure Internet, instagram etc
"It serves no purpose but to make the very people who are trying to help their child with BPD feel defensive and horrible, not to mention it is super-judgemental." YES YES YES!

Yes I too feel it has been invalidating to my two other kids. My BPD D started acting up in at age 14-15yo  and I remember thinking that my youngest was a strong able child so it was ok NOT to spend so much time and attention on her as I was trying to help my older BPD D (prior to DX). Then I let her slip and then she got AN which I feel was triggered by the turmoil due to older D's issues. 
My D too was sensitive as a baby,
She would not sleep, she only liked her DAD not ME-since 6 months old! She was extremely jealous of her 2 younger sibs when they were born. SHe is in competition with her younger, by 7 yrs sister! Sister is happy and very intelligent and has an easier time in life with others. BPD D is jealous of that and "hates" younger sister. She picks fights with her and lords things over her all the time. It is just who she is.

I have supported, encouraged, nudged them all as they needed. I sat with her and the others every night in their rooms, taking turns to ask about their days.
"what was the best part of your day, what was the worst part of your day and then we would talk until they were talked out" Everyone of them everyday and individually.
I was determined to be a better mom than I had had. I was present, and interested, and fostered ideas- I thought.We did so much as a family.
The past is past and I mourn that I cannot change the past and make it better. I missed an opportunity to get her help earlier? I don't know.

Sorry I am just rambling now
MM Sister in arms!  



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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2018, 01:59:57 AM »

Hi Please

Thanks for sharing this post; the honesty is palpable and very difficult to share.  When I read your post, I felt like you know exactly how I feel, and MomMae touches on it too.

Firstly, I have been cut off from my DD27 and GD1 following a turbulent few months or her volatile behaviour that she flipped on to my husband and I.  I was determined to step back and read and learn as much as I could about BPD. I was in shock.  As the shock wore off and I came up for air, I have tried to reach out to her using SET, other validation techniques, only to be rudely rebutted and disrespected. 

In all honestly, I wasn't ready to validate; particularly retrospectively has not worked well at all. I was angry and I still am (not good validating ground); I think this is where MomMae's comments below feel very raw atm for me. 

So the long and the short of it is, I refuse to take the blame for my daughter's mental illness.  She was born this way, into a good family in an invalidating world.  No family is perfect, but it is also not responsible for causing mental illness. 

I'm angry that we were there best that we could be and BPD is what we get. Despite my divorce we loved and cared for our daughter; there are so many happy family photos and memories. Today, I watched mothers loving their little children in the mall and remembered how I loved my daughter like that too as a child.

I'm recognising that my anger is part of moving through my own grief and while don't want to stay stuck here, I don't want to fast track my grief either... .and there is much to grieve. As I move through it, I may feel in a better place to be able to validate if and when we are no longer cut off. 

Hope that makes sense, thanks again for sharing.  Hope you are doing ok.

Merlot



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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2018, 04:09:36 PM »

Hi Merlot,
I have not read the forum in about a week and then I did today and here you are!

Well interesting I met with the psychologist that runs the DBT clinic that my D goes to. I went for information only and NOT for therapy. I have my own therapist for that. They have a carer group to teach everyone what the skills being taught to our BPD  kids etc... .I could not attend that group but he offered me a session on info.

So we talked and he agreed with me that it is likely a biological issue and not just from invalidating environments. I gave him a few examples of my struggle with D and he said that by engaging with her (ie attention seeking) her behaviours will continue- Yeah I get that - I do the same thing when she behaves a certain way so the pattern continues. He agreed it is very hard on the families. He suggested I "radically accept" that she comes home and she may chase me around the house (NO!) or she stays in the university apartment and I have to radically accept that she may not be able to take care of herself.

He suggested when she freaks out and screams " Are you going to ever support me" Maybe I need to says "your Father and I have done the best we can and cannot support you (she means validate all the time) all the time". Hmm i see what he is getting at and maybe I will try it.
Yesterday after that meeting (she does not know I met him) she started up on me and I said I have reached my limit and I am setting a boundary and I will NOT discuss that issue again as we keep fighting. She got upset, I walked out calmly and then went to my room to tidy up . She came in and just asked "What time it was" and that was it - she was just Normal.

Ok too soon to say , but maybe, maybe, hopefully... .I can change the direction of these interactions?

XXX
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« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2018, 07:28:04 AM »

Hi please,

You did great!  What an excellent example of how simply stating your own truth and boundaries can sometimes change the cycle!  You stated your truth, remained calm, carried on with your own things and dd reacted differently than usual - perfect - exactly what you were trying to accomplish!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Ok too soon to say , but maybe, maybe, hopefully... .I can change the direction of these interactions?

You sure can!  You have already begun  Smiling (click to insert in post)   Changing your own approach is all you can control - you did, and your daughter responded favourably.  Baby steps... . 

  MM 
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« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2018, 11:39:02 AM »

Hello Please,
You must be exhausted! Two extremely difficult and terrifying disorders under one roof! How do you manage to get in any self care?
As for your therapist, shame on her/him for pouring salt into your wound. Yes, we are human and as you well know BPD is harder to treat than schizophrenia. We have limits! One time after one of many calls to the police for a safety check... .I lost it to the point where my husband said he thought I needed a psych evaluation. I was in the middle of a self care meal, about an hour away from home when I
Got a text from DD’s boyfriend saying he thought DD would try to commit suicide. I had to call 911 from the restaurant and then race Home. Thank goodness for Google maps because I had drawn a complete blank on how to get Home. Every siren I heard on the way home made me shake. I came home and after police and the assessment team left, I had a huge grownup tantrum.
I could not validate in that moment because I was completely drained, terrified and pissed off all at once.
 I say, if you are feeling so angry and cannot validate, take care of yourself first. And, what a tough spot. Are you worried that DD could trigger your An D into another episode?

Don’t apologize for complaining. That’s what this board is for!
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