concerned uBPDw may really be leaving this time

[wellthisisnofun]

Hi everyone. I thank you and empathize with many of the stories, emotions, experiences, and struggles I have thus far seen here. Boy am I there too.

I have been married to my uBPDw for almost ten years now. We're in 40s / 30s. No children, but a dog we adore. Nearly everything I've seen or read about BPD applies to us, whether constantly or at times, so I will avoid any attempts to "prove" my case.

At the heart of our biggest issue now, I have built up a wall that has now been there for many, many years, having become quiet, not engaged in intimacy (it's been a year now), throwing myself into other things (work), etc., to keep everything at a safe distance. I own this part - I guess I have yet to figure out the best tools and approaches for dealing with this, but I do and have always wanted to. I have also wanted at times, as a last resort, to bring up BPD with her in a loving and committed way, to see if we can get down a path of recognition and doing something about it, but I have not done that for two likely common reasons -- fear of hurting her, and fear of her leaving me, having just "criticized" her very being.

And yet, in my head, I love and am committed to my wife, am *always* thinking about our issues and what to do about them, etc. - just haven't been able to. I've been stuck. And she doesn't see that, so thinks I don't / won't do anything. It's hard to become sweet, affectionate, intimate, and continually loving with someone who operates in various clouds of negativity and reactivity, even when things have been relatively good for a while. Even when, in my head, I was really trying to get close, I couldn't get myself over the hump - it was "easier" to remain at arm's length.
 
Of course, this has not served me well. On her side, the refrain for years now has been how she wants and needs that closeness, that intimacy, that connectedness, and what's wrong with me that I can't give that to her? Why don't I prioritize it? How awful that make her feel, what's wrong with her, why can't I explain what the problem is, etc.? All without recognition of her contribution, however. She has threatened ending our relationship at several points over our marriage, probably for the last 7 years or so. In the last 2 years, the D word has been said a few times as well.

Now, we are at the the highest crisis point we have ever been. We had a particularly bad lack of connection over the last couple of months, and it all came to a head a few nights ago where she said she can no longer live like this, and threatened leaving in the clearest and most final terms she's ever used. I am aware she has an initial consult meeting with an attorney in the next couple of days, that she scheduled before we had our chat.

As part of our talk, I re-committed to her in all the ways I could possibly conceive of, trying to get through my own barriers and being "stuck in my head" rather than acting in ways I *wanted* to but couldn't. I wrote all of this down in a long commitment letter that I read and gave to her. "10 years... ." she kept saying. "What's different now? You've said that over and over and over and nothing has changed." She's right, of course, using her perspective on things.

Well, I do believe I have a different plan. I am starting to see (again) a counselor myself. I wrote down all the things I want to do so I could visualize them - which I had not done before - as part of that commitment letter. They are about me in addition to being about us. It feels different, achievable to me. Seeing them, organizing them, has potentially changed what I can do about it, getting it out of my head, getting it "unstuck". I tried to explain that to her but of course was met with much skepticism.

But it may be too late. She says she's not sure she can trust me, not sure she wants to, not sure that her feelings haven't changed or that she could get them back. She said she needed time to think about it, and time without me in her space. So I offered to be in a hotel for a week (now 2 days in... . awful experience), giving her that space. We agreed to reconvene in a week and see where we are. So I'm sort of in purgatory, with the minutes seeming like they take hours to pass. She holds all the cards, has all the control; she will be the one to instigate contact during the week, not me, since it's her space she needs. I am trying to fully respect that. She already has initiated contact a couple times, but about mundane things - tax info I was waiting for, did I need the lightning cord I left behind when I left for the hotel (she didn't really have to write me about that, so who knows what that means... .)

Of course, all of this is coming from the lens of someone with BPD, however. I am desperately scared she may indeed follow through on divorce, given how it's never been this bad, her planned meeting with the attorney, etc. (though that as planned before our talk and my commitment letter). But then I also read about how this is such a common thing in the BPD playbook, as a way to get control and try to instigate change in me, and maybe that's what's happening. So perhaps this week off with me away and her in full control is her sort of "sticking it to me" in that sense (while I remain hopeful I'll get an early "come home" text), but I'll be honest that it did sound different this time, like perhaps she reached a breaking point, and maybe I had lost her for good.

Would anyone care to comment on any of the above, especially that last point? My first goal is to hopefully have her say okay, let's work on this, but then I know if we get that opportunity, things need to change with us and with me and how I am approaching it.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

-wellthisisnofun

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[SunandMoon]

Hi wtinf and welcome!

I'm sorry you are in such a hard place and I'm glad you've joined these boards so you can get some hep and clarity. There are many wonderful and wise people here who can relate to what you are going through.

Detachment is part of handling a relationship with a person with BPD (pwBPD) but it sounds like you have detached too far and put up walls, probably to protect yourself from the pain and confusion that comes with BPD behaviour.

It's good that you can recognise your role in the deterioration of your marriage and that you are willing to do what it takes to change. I know it's frustrating that your wife doesn't seem to recognise her part but that's okay for now.

Changing ourselves and the way we react can make a BIG difference in a relationship with a pwBPD. It has for me and my marriage is living proof that things can get better, thanks to this website.

I don't know how much research you have done on BPD or what books you have read, but the lessons on this board are really good for developing understanding and skills (tools) to make things better.

On the right hand side of the page is a panel of articles - start reading these and working through it during your hotel 'exile'. It will give you plenty to think about but remember not to wallow in your room and spend all your time ruminating. Go outside and take a walk, catch up with a mate for a drink, or do whatever you enjoy so that you can keep balance and perspective.

Maybe when your wife contacts you about things like the cord, be open and honest. Say "well this is no fun. I miss you... ."  See where it leads.

Please keep sharing because there's a lot in your post (and a lot that hasn't been said, I'm sure). I'm sure others will join in to give useful advice and insights soon too.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi wtinf and welcome!  

Let me join SunandMoon on commending you for the proactive actions you've taken in terms of making changes to better your relationship. I also think it's a great suggestion to spend this time reading up on the skills to make you more prepared to reengage. I know this time living outside is incredibly painful but a little distance and quiet may have its uses.  

I can fully understand the frustration with wanting to be the person your wife needs but not feeling emotionally capable. I blamed myself for this for many years until I realized that it was my wife's behaviors - such as verbally abusing me, physically abusing me, and general manipulation - that had made it so impossible to get close. I love her but every time she sends me a text I nearly jump out of fear of what it might be about. The discomfort I feel around her is a normal reaction and it has absolutely trickled down into our sex life.  

I need to know a bit more about your wife's BPD behaviors since they made a huge contribution to that wall between the two of you. What exactly do you think she did to make you detach?

Yrs,
~ROE

[wellthisisnofun]

Thank you, SunandMoon. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. I hear you loud and clear that I have allowed myself to detach too far, for too long, though exactly with the "intent" as you say of putting up walls to protect myself. Now that we are at this crisis point, and even though I'm 100% willing to do everything I can on my end to change, I'm so fearful it just may be over, and that I'll find that out at the end of this week when this intentional week apart is over. I'm hoping her threats of divorce are really just the loudest of cries to get me to recognize what she needs, so that I can figure out how to change. That said, I *do* know it's not all on me, and I need to figure out how to get what *want* out of a loving relationship, but that is not much solace right now.

Thanks for pointing out the resources. I have been reviewing. I also started my journey on getting informed a long time ago, having read Walking on Eggshells, other books and info, and seeing a therapist a few times over the years, who originally brought up BPD to me based upon what I was describing. The reason I didn't continue with a therapist is that I felt like I knew what I needed to know about this, and that it was up to me to either act or not. One of the thing my wife accuses me of is not getting help for myself to find out what is "wrong with me", when she actually has been seeing a therapist for about 9 years. She sees a nurse practitioner who primarily operates at filling the subscription side of things, and she's been on antidepressants and even an anti-irritability med, but with minimal effect at least that I see. My wife is very smart, charismatic, etc. - if I were a betting man, I'd put money on the idea that she has successfully masked the real issue to her therapist such that she doesn't see it. And instead they end up talking about what is wrong with me and why she stays with me. And now, I think she might even be getting specific advice to leave me for her own good - again, if the view you have is through the BPD lens, all you might see is "my husband hasn't given me the closeness and intimacy I've been asking for, for years."

Hi wtinf and welcome!

I'm sorry you are in such a hard place and I'm glad you've joined these boards so you can get some hep and clarity. There are many wonderful and wise people here who can relate to what you are going through.

[wellthisisnofun]

Hi RolandOfEld,

Thanks so much. I really am thankful to hear perspectives like yours. That push / pull I feel is immense. I, too, get sort of "scared" every time I get a text from her, wondering what sort of drama or accusation it's going to be. Usually it's not, but clearly there is enough history of it happening before for it to have that impact on me.

You ask about my wife's behaviors that made me detach, so I'll try to paint a brief picture, in no particular order:
- She kind of operates in a constant cloud of negativity and bitterness. This impacts how she interacts with people, the world, etc.
-Quick to verbally aggress at the slightest hint of conflict or perceived criticism
-Difficult for her to control her emotions and how she acts out as a result of them - I end up feeling like I never know what I'm going to get, in classic Jeckyl and Hyde fashion
-Sometimes when it escalates she can become super enraged or angry and even remove herself from the situation with a "I'm done" dramatic exit and slam the door sort of thing - she's done that with me, with my parents (several times, to the point of them not being able to be together with us in the way they would like), with friends, etc. When something hits too close to home with her, she kills it by exiting, and leaving a wake of drama, discord, and people wondering what just happened
-Doesn't fight fair, puts me in no-win situations - I'm left scratching my head about what type of reality she is living under. Like when you have a discussion and one of the first responses is "why did you marry me then?" Not much place to go after that.
-Will claim she wants me to be open and honest, but when I try / or have tried, would put it all back on me, saying "oh sure, everything is always my fault", or blaming me, etc.
-Lots of little hypocrisy type things where she will get upset about something I do that she does just as much or more
-Black or white thinking, idolization and devaluation. Everyone and everything is either all good or all bad depending on the timing. I've lost friends and connections over this, as has she. Even her matron of honor.
-We kind of can't have normal conversations. She is so quick to say something picky, accusatory, jabbing, aggressive, sarcastic, etc., that it has made me just not to want to talk too much, I guess. And it can be on the smallest of things, and in the smallest of ways, but definitely there and it all adds up. It's like the little supposedly conversations all have barbs that hook and pull and hurt.
-Major drama and instability in her family relationships. Without getting into the details, both her parents essentially abandoned her at various points of her life both as a child and in early adulthood. She has reconnected with her Mom but it's different, but not with her Dad. Her larger family would see here as just a tough you-know-what to be around.
-She won't admit it, but she as a problem with smoking pot. I could care less about smoking pot - it's the frequency and consistency that is an issue.

I'm sure there's more but that is an initial brain dump. Would love to hear any further thoughts you have based on that. As I noted above, despite all of that, there is still something about here that I love and want to work on, and I'm scared that at the end of this break we are now in, she will just call it quits.  Thank you so much again.

Hi wtinf and welcome!  

Let me join SunandMoon on commending you for the proactive actions you've taken in terms of making changes to better your relationship. I also think it's a great suggestion to spend this time reading up on the skills to make you more prepared to reengage. I know this time living outside is incredibly painful but a little distance and quiet may have its uses.  

I can fully understand the frustration with wanting to be the person your wife needs but not feeling emotionally capable. I blamed myself for this for many years until I realized that it was my wife's behaviors - such as verbally abusing me, physically abusing me, and general manipulation - that had made it so impossible to get close. I love her but every time she sends me a text I nearly jump out of fear of what it might be about. The discomfort I feel around her is a normal reaction and it has absolutely trickled down into our sex life.  

I need to know a bit more about your wife's BPD behaviors since they made a huge contribution to that wall between the two of you. What exactly do you think she did to make you detach?

Yrs,
~ROE

[wellthisisnofun]

Something I mentioned above:

My wife is very smart, charismatic, etc. - if I were a betting man, I'd put money on the idea that she has successfully masked the real issue to her therapist such that she doesn't see it. And instead they end up talking about what is wrong with me and why she stays with me. And now, I think she might even be getting specific advice to leave me for her own good - again, if the view you have is through the BPD lens, all you might see is "my husband hasn't given me the closeness and intimacy I've been asking for, for years."

And, she will hang this over my head - "I've been seeing a therapist for years, you haven't - why not? Why aren't you committed to getting help for yourself to then help us fix this?" Truth is, I *have* seen a few, and we've been in couples counseling twice, too. "Love language" help can only go so far when dealing with BPD. One couples counselor saw what I saw, but got the same reaction - as soon as we got close to anything that might open up her wounds, she reacted - to the point of storming out of the room. And both individual therapists I've seen, once the BPD aspect came up, had it become mostly around "yes, you're in a tough spot. why do you stay?" Since I have not been ready to leave, that was not helpful to me.

So... .as a follow on to all of that... .

Has anyone ever proactively reached out to their pwBPD's therapist to say, "Hey, I'm so and so's spouse. I don't know if you're aware of this, but I need to inform you of what I'm seeing, since I know it can be really hard to see w/o the benefit of seeing both sides, and it may impact how things proceed, especially if you know that I have so much love and commitment in my heart that I want to give to her, but this has been the main source of blocking me." Or similar. I realize that's a bit non-kosher, perhaps, but then again I feel like we are at the point of no return so what do I have to lose... .

[SunandMoon]

I'm hoping her threats of divorce are really just the loudest of cries to get me to recognize what she needs, so that I can figure out how to change

Yes, wtinf, I'm thinking this is probably the case. Hang in there! It sounds like you both know your marriage can't go on like this. With her BPD she probably doesn't know how to fix it, so is relying on you to lead the way.

She sounds like a tough cookie and from what you've described, isn't afraid to show her disapproval and even end relationships with those close to her. She hasn't done that to you... .

My wife is very smart, charismatic, etc. - if I were a betting man, I'd put money on the idea that she has successfully masked the real issue to her therapist such that she doesn't see it.

Yes, you're probably correct. If her therapist isn't trained in working with BPD and isn't seeing the signs, she wouldn't have a clue about what she's really dealing with. The prescription of anti irritability meds means there has been some discussion of anger issues... .but obviously that's not enough.

Has anyone ever proactively reached out to their pwBPD's therapist to say, "Hey, I'm so and so's spouse. I don't know if you're aware of this, but I need to inform you of what I'm seeing... .

Personally, I would. But I've never been in this situation so I'm hoping someone with experience will chime in. Where we live, there is no chance for decent therapy and my husband has even admitted "I'd be smarter than them and just tell them what they want to hear anyway". No help there!

Again, as her therapist isn't a BPD therapist, I'm not sure what good it might do. What are BPD resources like in your area? Are there any DBT programmes available?

You said you are going to start seeing a counsellor for yourself so I'm thinking, if it were me, I'd try to locate a centre where they have a DBT programme and therapists who are experienced with BPD. That would give you a chance to do counselling with someone who understands the specific problems and coach you through effective responses, rather than a usual therapist who will guide you toward leaving (as you've already experienced and as her therapist may be doing now).

Who knows? Maybe in that situation, you could find a way eventually to get her over to DBT therapy in the future.

What do you think? Is this doable?

[RolandOfEld]

Hi wtinf, I really want to give you more detailed answers but I'm preparing to go out of country for the next few days. I will do my best to address your thoughts. Sorry in advance if you don't hear from me for a while.

First, all of the behaviors you listed could describe my wife exactly, all you need to do is swap the pot for alcohol. So I understand exactly where you are coming from. I also know you really love your wife and the threat of divorce is very scary. Let me say again you have our support to help you get through this. No one can face this sort of thing alone.  

I want to echo SunandMoon in saying that no matter the result, your marriage can't go on like this. That isn't to say it has to end, it just means it can't go on as it has been. It's clear you are in a lot of pain, otherwise you wouldn't be here. You have not been getting what you need emotionally to survive in this relationship.  

You have obviously done a ton of work to try and save this marriage. I think you perhaps largely blame yourself and your detaching for the separation. But all it takes is one look at the list you wrote above to know that sick or not, your wife has a heavy share of the responsibility in your detaching and the current separation. I think once you begin to shift out of a mindset of guilt and into one of seeing where responsibility actually lies, you will find more space to operate in. I write this as someone doing the exact same thing now, that is trying to separate guilt from fact.  

And like SunandMoon mentioned, I am also trying to coax my wife towards a DBT program. In my experiences many therapists are not trained for BPD and end up validating the BPD patients negative feelings about their partner. This happened with me and I did end up reaching out to our marriage counselor, but since she had to keep things neutral their was little she could do. The great thing about DBT is that you can position it as a skills training, not psychiatric treatment. It may even be possible for you to join it with her depending on how your local program is set up.

What do you think of the above?

~ROE

[Enabler]

Has anyone ever proactively reached out to their pwBPD's therapist to say... .

I considered it and I can totally empathize with the desperation to enlighten the T so they can help your W. I consulted my own T who works in the same practice as my W's T and he strongly advised me against it. The relationship between T and client is one of trust, her T is likely to feel obliged to inform your W of your enlightenment and I am not sure that would go down too well. It is incredibly frustrating to sit back and watch (my W decided to quit therapy in Jan, despite having not petitioned for the divorce she said she wanted. She claimed (last week, I assumed she was still attending) it had come to a natural conclusion and she needed to devote time to divorce application (2 page document of tick boxes). I can see no natural conclusion if she was abused by me as she claims). As ROE points out, T often serves to validate their negative feelings about you... .until they don't and then they stop attending claiming "I'm cured". 

However frustrating you have to maintain respect for the T patient bond and do not yield to the temptation to meddle or control... .that's her space. 

[wellthisisnofun]

Thanks, SunandMoon. I really hope you're right and that this is mostly the "biggest cry yet" as opposed to her truly saying she's done and moving on to divorce. You're right, she hasn't done that yet. Which is good. But the lawyer bit, the me staying in a hotel bit, ugh... .So much awfulness that I know many have and do feel in their own way. So much empathy to go around... .

 It's funny, I have confided in a friend about all of this, and my wife recently saw her and did the same. She's more my friend, and she said everything my wife said to her is exactly what I had said to her - so we are on the same page, and this is relevant to your point of "sounds like you both know your marriage can't go on like this". But isn't it awful and ironic that we can both be so open honest to our friend in all these ways, and yet fail to be able to do so with each other? That's both eye opening and heartbreaking. It;s almost like because of BPD, she's allowed the ability to be brutally honest with me - but not the other way around... .

It is a good idea to seek out someone familiar with DBT for my own counseling, particularly if my wife and I end up able to give this a go. I will give that some very serious thought. we do have some DBT-focused clinics / practices where I live. First things first, but I would *love* to get her into one of those if at all possible. No idea how I would do that - and regardless, she has to say she wants to still work on this first, so that's the first hurdle.

Yes, wtinf, I'm thinking this is probably the case. Hang in there! It sounds like you both know your marriage can't go on like this. With her BPD she probably doesn't know how to fix it, so is relying on you to lead the way.

She sounds like a tough cookie and from what you've described, isn't afraid to show her disapproval and even end relationships with those close to her. She hasn't done that to you... .

Yes, you're probably correct. If her therapist isn't trained in working with BPD and isn't seeing the signs, she wouldn't have a clue about what she's really dealing with. The prescription of anti irritability meds means there has been some discussion of anger issues... .but obviously that's not enough.

Personally, I would. But I've never been in this situation so I'm hoping someone with experience will chime in. Where we live, there is no chance for decent therapy and my husband has even admitted "I'd be smarter than them and just tell them what they want to hear anyway". No help there!

Again, as her therapist isn't a BPD therapist, I'm not sure what good it might do. What are BPD resources like in your area? Are there any DBT programmes available?

You said you are going to start seeing a counsellor for yourself so I'm thinking, if it were me, I'd try to locate a centre where they have a DBT programme and therapists who are experienced with BPD. That would give you a chance to do counselling with someone who understands the specific problems and coach you through effective responses, rather than a usual therapist who will guide you toward leaving (as you've already experienced and as her therapist may be doing now).

Who knows? Maybe in that situation, you could find a way eventually to get her over to DBT therapy in the future.

What do you think? Is this doable?

[wellthisisnofun]

Not a problem, RolandOfEld. Anything you care to give when you can is immensely appreciated, as is just your words of support.

May I ask, how are you trying to coax your wife towards DBT w/o actually bringing up the BPD aspect? That seems next to impossible, but would love to know you're doing it. My wife actually has an inkling that I think she "has this" - she found some reading material many years ago and confronted me via text "So, in your EXPERT opinion, you think I have BPD? Whatever." Or something like that. I just tried to explain it away as some general suggested reading my counselor had recommended. In hindsight maybe I should have sad yes since the seal was broken... .But since then, she has retained that and interpreted it as that I think she's a monster, when of course that's not true and I know she doesn't feel that way. In moments when she is asking me why I have detached, she uses that - "what is wrong with me that you don't want to be intimate? Why do you think I'm some sort of monster?" Or similar. I don't. She just doesn't have the ability to see the impact that her actions, words, etc. are having and how it has built up over time. I believe she is a wonderful person deep down inside.

Hi wtinf, I really want to give you more detailed answers but I'm preparing to go out of country for the next few days. I will do my best to address your thoughts. Sorry in advance if you don't hear from me for a while.

First, all of the behaviors you listed could describe my wife exactly, all you need to do is swap the pot for alcohol. So I understand exactly where you are coming from. I also know you really love your wife and the threat of divorce is very scary. Let me say again you have our support to help you get through this. No one can face this sort of thing alone.  

I want to echo SunandMoon in saying that no matter the result, your marriage can't go on like this. That isn't to say it has to end, it just means it can't go on as it has been. It's clear you are in a lot of pain, otherwise you wouldn't be here. You have not been getting what you need emotionally to survive in this relationship.  

You have obviously done a ton of work to try and save this marriage. I think you perhaps largely blame yourself and your detaching for the separation. But all it takes is one look at the list you wrote above to know that sick or not, your wife has a heavy share of the responsibility in your detaching and the current separation. I think once you begin to shift out of a mindset of guilt and into one of seeing where responsibility actually lies, you will find more space to operate in. I write this as someone doing the exact same thing now, that is trying to separate guilt from fact.  

And like SunandMoon mentioned, I am also trying to coax my wife towards a DBT program. In my experiences many therapists are not trained for BPD and end up validating the BPD patients negative feelings about their partner. This happened with me and I did end up reaching out to our marriage counselor, but since she had to keep things neutral their was little she could do. The great thing about DBT is that you can position it as a skills training, not psychiatric treatment. It may even be possible for you to join it with her depending on how your local program is set up.

What do you think of the above?

~ROE

[wellthisisnofun]

I hear you, Enabler, and I guess this is where I will land. Desperate times often beget desperate thinking and ideas, of course.  

However frustrating you have to maintain respect for the T patient bond and do not yield to the temptation to meddle or control... .that's her space. 

[SunandMoon]

Hi wtinf

Lots of new posts so I had to go looking for yours! How have the past few days been? Have you had much contact with your wife?

Hopefully by now you're out of the hotel room and back home. Please give us an update when you have time.

[wellthisisnofun]

Thanks, SunandMoon. I just came by to post an update, so good timing. We are still in our "plan" of me being in a hotel for a week before we reconvene. I've made it through 6 nights of that, and I go home tomorrow, uncertain of what will transpire.

It's been an incredibly emotional, up and down week, for sure. I waffle between "if she knew she wanted to work on it, I would have heard from her" to "that's what we agreed to and I am giving her exactly the space she asked for per our plan" - which may in fact be "different" for us anyway, so perhaps that is a good start. You can imagine where the mind goes, though.

It has thus far been the hardest week of my life, and still with the possibility of an awful outcome when I go back. By awful I mean if she says she's taken the time to think and decided she doesn't want to work on it anymore. I'm dreading that scenario. I don't even know "when" to go home tomorrow - after work? early? afternoon? Or how - go in all gung ho with "I have missed you so much, I want to work on this, let's talk" or let her take it per her wishes? Ugh... .

In the meantime, a few things of note:

- At least as of a couple days ago, I got the impression from two people who know her that she really just didn't know what to do. That she's sad, upset, scared, unhappy, feels like we've been at this for a long time, that I haven't been listening / able to change, and that we can't seem to make any progress, so what the heck do we we do? Funnily enough, one person I confide in who also spoke with her said it sounded like we are on exactly the same page in terms of how we are felling and that something needs to happen or it won't survive. Isn't it ironic how we can talk to someone else about these things so openly and directly, but have so much trouble communicating about it between US? Makes my heart hurt and spin... .

So those friends' impressions wasn't that she had necessarily 100% decided on divorce and and that I was going to get home and be confronted with that, but that was a few days ago, and I'm pretty sure she followed through with consulting with a lawyer early in the week. Some friends think that is probably out of being scared / necessity / figuring out what would happen if we do go that route (even though she directly has threatened it closer than ever before now), rather than "I'm filing papers." I'm obviously hopeful that is true. Though I keep waffling about getting no sign about it in the meantime, though again - we did sign up for the week separation, and I am following through on that.

- She has reached out a couple of times but mostly transactional. I got to go home Tuesday morning and stay overnight with the dog since she was out of town. So she pinged me on that (we left it that *she* would do the instigation of communication, which I have respected). Though, something "interesting" happened yesterday - she got back early, in the afternoon, and didn't alert me to that. I of course wanted to take it as "hey, maybe she did want to run into me" or at least she wasn't motivated to make sure she avoided me, but also trying not to overthink and read too much into anything. I got a text that said, "Hi! Just got home." while I was at a therapist appointment. All my stuff was still there - I was planning on leaving later on about an hour before she would normally have returned. So I texted her back and said "Hi! I'm glad you're home. I was at a therapist appt. I'll come by now to get my stuff."

When I got home, she was sleeping - which is totally normal after a long two work days and drives for her. So I made sure I was quiet, got my stuff, did not wake her up, fed the dog, left, and texted her letting her know that's what I did. A half an hour later she texted saying she had no idea I was there, that something else just woke her up, and that I was like a ghost. I very intentionally replied with a mindful validation: "Just know how exhausted you feel and made sure to let you sleep." And that's been it as far as communication. I want to read some "goodness" into this, but also don't want my mind playing tricks on me.

ADDED: Another note - when I got home on Tuesday, the big long note I had written for her was left in *my pile* of things in the office. I don't know whether there is anything to read into here, but it certainly felt like a rejection of what I had said. "Here's my heart on my sleeve, signed and delivered - all my feelings and commitments to you." I guess I would have thought she would keep it with her stuff - but that didn't happen. Unsure if that really means anything or is neither here nor there. It is sort of consistent with her... .And she could also just really be trying to "stick it" to me for this week, in a sense. And it's worked.

- In the meantime, I have been doing everything I can to try to improve myself - reading everything here, watching videos, reading articles and tips, etc. I have come to more fully realize my role in things here - especially in terms of a tendency to not validate her, and even invalidating her (of course not intentional)m which I understand is even worse, and lots of JADEing, and realizing how the way I've interacted with all this has just made things worse. I have talked to friends, seen my counselor twice, etc. I'm doing my best to try some relaxation and self-affirmation along the way. I am trying to internalize all of this, everything I'm learning, so I can put it to effective use when we reconvene.

However, my big fear is that it's too little too late, which she alluded to a week ago, and that I won't get that chance.

So that's my current update. In terms of a few things I would love to ask the community, besides any comments of thoughts on the above:

- Any thoughts on how I approach it when I get home tomorrow? Especially knowing that the last interaction was essentially how she was saying she couldn't live like this anymore, and not sure she could trust that I would be able to do all the things I said I would in the long "commitment" letter I wrote her before we parted a week ago. No idea where to pick things up.

- Should I read anything at all into her leaving my long letter to her on "my pile" of stuff in the office?

- Should I read anything at all into that short text interaction we had and how she got home early? One thought is that if she really wanted to avoid me, it would have been easy to text me with 2 hours notice telling me when she would be home. She didn't do that. Another thought is that at least it was a more normal interaction, and that I really did try to give her some loving and validating words.

- Should I read anything at all into the fact that we are indeed taking this whole week, and the first real interaction will be when that is over? It is what we decided and what I promised - but of course I was hoping for a "come home early" or at least something that might have signified what would happen when I get home. The fact that she appears to be truly taking the whole week in some ways scares the crap out of me, of course.

- Do I somehow work in telling her the things I've been trying to do in the meantime? More fully recognizing my part in it? Starting to figure out how to change that? Wanting to continue to do all that and get professional help for both me and us to make it better?

I do realize that I have to get what I want out of the relationship as well. If I don't, I could change everything, but then nothing will have really changed. I realize that - god willing - if we are able to at least come back from the ledge of divorce and talk about working on it, then I have to start demanding my needs be met as well, institute boundaries, etc. All the things that come with this being a two sided street.

I'm just fearful I won't get that chance.

Thank you. You all have been awesome.

[SunandMoon]

Nice update wtinf - and it's looking pretty good, as far as I can tell. If she really was over it, the small interactions you have had this week would have been much more volatile. What I'm seeing is polite and cautious. From that, you can assume that she is open to continuing with you.

I know it's a really confusing time and your mind must be going nuts! Try to be the stable one here... .have you read much about wise mind? If so, try to keep in that mindset, especially tomorrow when you go home.

Regarding that, I would go home at the usual time when I would normally come home from work. Try to be as "normal" as possible because you both will be feeling tense and not sure what to expect.

Up until now, from what you've described, you've been letting her run the show and you've just been detaching more and more, rather than rock the boat. I think this is something you might need to work on - taking back your control.

In my relationship with my husband, I see he likes it when I know what I want, and keep a calm and stable attitude. I can understand how, when someone is so controlled by their emotions and mood swings, it helps to have a stable partner who can be relied on to keep things steady. That means not reacting into the moods (and that includes the little 'jabs' and negative comments) - I just recognise that this is part of BPD and it will pass if I don't make a big deal about it.

Activities are really important too. If my husband is bored or we're just sitting around at home too much, for sure he will go looking for some drama! Plan things that you can both do to take you out of the house and change the mindset. It can be something like taking the dog for a walk, planning a nice dinner at a favourite restaurant - whatever you both enjoy. Think back to when you were first dating.

I'm glad you came to the conclusion that you may have been invalidating and that validating will help. From the behaviours you described previously, I was thinking that your wife seems hyper aware of criticism and is very defensive. Being continually invalidated will do that.

That's where wise mind come into this. Try to stay in the mindset of "the big picture" and think about what responses you are making and how it might come across to someone who secretly knows they are "wrong".

I'm not by any means suggesting this is all your fault! It's BPD. It's not her fault either - it's just the way she is wired. Loving someone with BPD means we have to just accept that they have this emotionally sensitivity and we need to learn different ways of communicating and loving them.

By the way, "emotional sensitivity" is a good way to talk to your wife about this (when the time is right). Avoid using the label BPD because she has obviously already read about it and thinks the label equates to "being a monster". I would avoid any BPD talk now and just refer to it as you understand she is "very emotionally sensitive".

Sorry - long reply! For tomorrow, go home in wise mind. Be honest and tell her you've missed her a lot and have been really unhappy without her. This week has shown you that you don't want a divorce and you want to work on making your marriage better. Listen closely and validate her feelings. If she says nonsense, don't validate that! But don't argue either. If in doubt, say "I'm sorry you feel like that" and leave it at that. No JADE!

Maybe plan a nice activity for this weekend... .
definitely take flowers home with you tomorrow!

Good luck - you've got this!

[wellthisisnofun]

Thank you once again, SunandMoon. I wish I was as confident as you are in that it sounds like it might not be over completely and that she’ll be open to working on it. There is just so much fear and doubt that this really is different this time, and perhaps this week has led her to make up her mind in the direction I fear.

Today is the day we reconvene. To say I’m fearful and anxious is an understatement. I plan to go home later afternoon, in the neighborhood of normal after work hours. We shall see. Gulp.

[wellthisisnofun]

Our reconvene did not go as I had hoped.  Upon telling her I had missed her tremendously and loved her and that the past week only solidified how I was all-in on making this work, I was essentially told she’s at a point where it is >< this close to being over. That for her, the week felt like a normal business trip of mine and she really didn’t miss me.

She has so much anger and resentment from the last 10 years when I had distanced myself for survival’s sake. I own this and it’s my single biggest contribution to the mess whe’re in. That is a point she keeps going back to, and how she's asked me countless times over the years to give what she's been asking for and "why now am I all of a sudden wanting to change?" And if the answer is only because of where we are now and the big recent threats she has made, then that's not good enough - I should have wanted to and prioritized and acted before. I'm in a corner with no ability to defend the last 10 years, from her perspective rightfully so, since how do I tell her about all the hurt I’ve had from the way she’s treated me, and how it got us there in the first place? Cause then it would be met with, “Oh of course it’s always MY fault.”

I owned my part and kept trying to say I am sorry for the past, that I understand how she feels and it’s awful, and that I can't change the past but am wholly committed to the future. But she keeps bringing up the past and again I get it. Lots to be angry about with minimal intimacy between us for so long. Me saying I didn’t know how to change, but thinking I may know now, was not received well, even if it’s true. The fact I didn’t try before is being held against me. What she doesn’t realize is that I was always, always, trying. 

I did my best at validating and being of wise mind, though not perfect of course. When in doubt I kept saying things like "I hear you" or “I understand how you feel and hate that you must feel that way” etc., but she threw it back at me, angry I kept saying things like that and discounting my intention behind it. It sounded like therapist speak to her.

I feel like in some ways my situation is now opppsite much of what I have read here - that *my* partner is now the one doing the leaving rather than the reverse, and very clearly, in her mind, due to my actions or lack thereof over the past 10 years. I’m not sure how to grasp all of that. It feels so twisted.

Throughout, when I would say I want to work on it, she kept saying she doesn't think she wants to try, continually saying "I don't know" while shaking her head, angry at me. That she thinks she doesn't love me romantically anymore and can't get it back. Looks at me with resentment, no love, not caring, not wanting to hug or kiss me, etc. Clearly, that hurts me greatly to hear.

But the whole time never saying it’s done, definitively. A big “I don’t know”. She says the big majority of her wants to leave, that it's all probably too little too late, but still "I don't know", not 100% “it's over and I'm leaving”. She also says her therapist has been telling her to leave me for years, confirming what I suspected in that her therapist is hearing / perceiving one side of the equation.  Of course I asked for a chance to work on whatever little is left, but it's "I don't know" and a big lean towards it's over but without going there completely. 

This part is maddening: She also says maybe we're not compatible, and that she realizes she'll always be "negative", that’s the way she is, and is always worried about saying something to offend me or that I will judge her for, and is sick of it. It was literally close to, "I know I'm negative and that’s how I see the world, and how that bothers you, but that is not going to change. Maybe we are not compatible since as a result. I always seem to say or do something that ends up hurting you. And then I feel judged, and how I have to worry about what I say, and can’t be my ‘real self’, and I'm sick of that."

Now, I realize my faults at not being good at validating (as well as NOT invalidating), and even professed this as part of our discussion, as one of the things I was realizing and working on. But this while “I’m negative” thing sort of takes any discussion about what I need off the table. She's proactively bringing up her major issues (like she knows deep down that she has this “thing” and is using it to her advantage) and claiming that's the way it is and won't change. I mean, how has that negative thing worked out for you? Not getting the love she wants, many failed friend and family relationships, emotional emptiness, job instability and inconsistency, constant volatility, etc. — all the things that are pretty typical of this “whole thing” we’ve all been through.

I’ll leave it there for now. Feeling pretty lost and down as I know many of you understand.

[Enabler]

From what I have read it seems like your wife has “numbed out”. Reached a point where the emotional pain that she has experienced in the relationship is too much for her and therefore she adopts a negative indifference to you. Beneath the surface I’d imagine that there is still love there for you however it’s protected by a thick sheild defence of indifference. Either direction involves emotional pain so adopting a sit on the fence, arms length stance and led her to not go through the emotional pain of a decision and separation OR recommitting to the relationship to risk potential further pain. It’s tied to black and white thinking... .all options are black so hide and do nothing seems the safest (emotionally) option.

I don’t know what the answer is here (hell I wish I knew myself) however it strikes me that you have 2 options and neither of them involve waiting for her to decide. Making one of the options more emotionally appetising or, you decide what you want to do and do it. If you decide to stay with the relationship you will need to do most of the legwork and make yourself “emotionally safe”, the emotionally appetising option. This will take time and she will unlikely trust any changes you make for some time (if my experience is anything to go by). Yes she will continue to assume you are going to emotionally abandon her for many months /years after you have shown there is no evidence you are likely to do that. That’s kinda what you sign up for.

Expecting her to lead a decision one way or another is foolish. My guess is she’s happy for now to emotionally neutralise you.

[SunandMoon]

Hi wtinf

That's good news! I know it's not the loving reconciliation you may want but it's also not the end, as you feared.

I'm a big believer in reading actions rather than words (especially with pwBPD). Your wife is still there, a week later, waiting for you to come home, and ready and willing to talk. From my perspective, that's someone who is willing to work on it.

Enabler makes a good point. If pwBPD mirror us (and really, all people do to an extent), you're wife is mirroring your detachment in her own way. You both are trying to protect yourselves from further pain and disappointment.

Turn that around and understand that by leading the relationship in positive and loving ways, your wife will also change. For me it's been worth making those changes because, although it takes time, my relationship now gives me a lot of the things I always wanted. With work, I believe you can get that too.

"I know I'm negative and that’s how I see the world, and how that bothers you, but that is not going to change. Maybe we are not compatible since as a result. I always seem to say or do something that ends up hurting you. And then I feel judged, and how I have to worry about what I say, and can’t be my ‘real self’, and I'm sick of that."

An interesting insight from your wife. Replace the word "negative" with the word "borderline" and see how it reads.

PwBPD feel overwhelmed by their disorder. They feel their problems are so insurmountable and all encompassing that it is impossible to change. She is also telling you she feels judged, which for me means she is also feeling shame and wants to escape that (is sick of that).

Try to hear the feelings that are driving the words.

It sounds like you did a good job of validating, even if she said it "sounded like therapist speak". It does for everyone at first. It will become more natural with practice. Try imagining you are listening to a dear friend or brother or sister and use the words you would use with them.

Now to building intimacy. Can you describe a normal day? Do you touch, hold hands, share hugs and kisses, snuggle on the couch or in bed? Do you tell her she looks beautiful when she is wearing something nice? What does your normal day look like?

[wellthisisnofun]

Thank you, Enabler and SunandMoon. Appreciate your thoughtfulness and perspectives. It is possible that both of your perspectives can coexist at the same time, of course. And they are not opposite at all. But I will be honest and say that the “tone” of everything going on is much more akin to what you said, Enabler. And everything makes sense that you said, SunandMoon, as well - it’s just that the level of pure disdain and lack of caring I’m hearing and seeing in the way she is interacting with me is palpable. It hurts. It hurts bad. It can be cordial, but it’s as if there is nothing there, or if there is, it’s a huge feeling of disdain. It is as Enabler put it - I’ve been emotionally neutralized. And yes she did talk with me when we got home, but it was anything but calm and invested - very accusatory, lots of resentment and anger throughout.

And unfortunately, it’s from a long, long time of not having the intimacy you described at the end of your note, SunandMoon. Sure, we would hold hands here and there, light kisses, an occasional you’re beautiful - but no where near the extent to what she wanted and was literally asking for. And it probably felt forced to her as well. But how was I to bring myself to love someone that way who had been hurting me so much, beaten me down? I was blocked. I was stuck. I was detached. For pure survival. The part I own in all of this.

I guess I just want to be clear that we did not have a normal loving relationship for a very long time, at least in actions and to a lesser extent words. I had love for her in my heart the whole time - stil do obviously - but just couldn’t do anything about it. Didn’t know how. And the steps I’m taking now may be too little too late. It’s possible she really has made her decision to bolt, and just can’t quite bring herself to do it yet. If you think I’m being overly pessimistic, SunandMoon, day the word - but I’m also trying to not pull the wool over my own eyes here.

Happy to hear additional perspectives of course. Thank you.

PS - the quote about her negativity was exactly meant to show what you mentioned, SunandMoon. If only she could see it and want to do something about it.

[Enabler]

Okay, I think you're right, both our perspectives can exist at the same time. I believe I am describing how I think she feels and is behaving and Sunandmoon is describing how you can maybe moving things forward. Dark... .or Black is the absence of colour (or light). Your wife has removed any light from your relationship hence her negativity. We know that life lives in the grey, it's never black or white, remove the colour and you are only left with black.

This is the time you have to radically accept your situation. If you radically accept BPD for what it is, how it impacts your wife and impacts your relationship, you can choose to continue with your eyes wide open as to what to expect... .or, you can choose to walk away. That is your choice. If you stay and work, you must accept that you need to lead, lead with your own personal change, lead by your own non-judgmental stance of your wife, and lead with your own strength of character. For me, the discovery of BPD was like being handed the enigma machine, all those messages, all that weirdness of the past suddenly making sense to me. You have the enigma machine, your wife likely doesn't. What are you going to do with it?

Radically accepting and standing/staying isn't the easy option at all. It's tough and you will be hurt. However, from a personal perspective I see the changes benefiting many many aspects of my life, not just my relationship with my wife (which I might add is still heading towards a divorce... .and I'm comfortable with that). Understanding one's self, assessing your strengths and weaknesses, being emotionally intelligent and working on communication methods is useful in all aspects of life. You will have to build the bridge towards your wife, you will likely have to prove to her that you're will to step out, take quite a few punches and come back for more and more and more and more, and that's the risk, the risk it might all be for nothing and she still walks away. BPD will always be there, however much DBT she might have, it's part of her like a golden thread.  By committing to standing/staying you are committing to being an emotional caretaker to varying degrees going forwards... .you have to be the pillar of strength. When she pushes you away, push back small, when she draws you near, pull her in hard.

The choice is yours. There's no reward without risk... .

[SunandMoon]

I'm sorry Enabler - I just read my last post and see I skipped a big part. Yes, I agree that she is shielding herself with indifference and keeping wtinf at arm's length, probably because of past hurt and an unwillingness to be hurt any further.

This leads to my mirroring comment because wtinf had also shielded himself and distanced himself for the same reasons. Both are individual expressions of hurt and distrust, with the same root cause.

It also sounds like there's a lot of anger and resentment from her side. Her continual expression of disdain may be her reaction to feeling rejected.

For a woman, not feeling attractive to her partner and not having any intimacy for so long would feel like a huge rejection of her as a woman. She is retaliating with disdain or contempt.

Wtinf - throughout all this, you have taken responsibility for this in your relationship and that's admirable. However, do not fall into the trap of blaming yourself (however much your wife wants to put all this on you). Your withdrawal - and all the steps that led to it - is a result of her BPD. Plain and unfortunately, not simple.

As Enabler says, if you choose to stay and work on it wtinf, it will take time. You will need to step out of the patterns you have gotten into and have patience to persevere.

I think it will have to start with bringing intimacy into your actions. It might feel unnatural and forced at first. Things like, when you come home, walking up to her and giving her a hug and a kiss. Kisses and hugs in the morning, snuggles and a kiss goodnight. (Do you still share a bed?)

What do you think?

[RolandOfEld]

Hi wtinf, apologies for the hiatus since I just got back from overseas. I'm sorry to hear things aren't going the way you hoped. There's a lot I'd like to say but let me focus on your question of the other day. Adding the caveat that I am not yet sure if my strategy will succeed.

May I ask, how are you trying to coax your wife towards DBT w/o actually bringing up the BPD aspect?

Right now I'm taking a strategy of hard / soft in trying to guide my wife towards help. The hard part means setting boundaries and is never pretty. Case in point, yesterday I reported my wife to the police after she took my bank card and cash (you can see my new codependent stress thread on the conflicted board). I do this when she hits me or steals / destroys my things. Hopefully you don't have to do anything so extreme in your situation but one way or another boundaries on unacceptable behaviors have to be set to create enough safety to love. Real consequences to her behaviors might also the only way for her to see she needs help in the situation.  

For the soft side, I provide her information on DBT, which I position very firmly as "skills training", not psychotherapy, which is true. I started by softly sharing this video, which discusses DBT without ever mentioning any mental illnesses: https://youtu.be/yyH1JLZcVR8. I said I had watched it to better manage my moods and thought she might be interested. She liked it and followed the channel. (This YouTuber has lots of gentle videos about BPD btw).  

You should learn about DBT, too and apply it in your life - this might also help your wife accept it more. I learned from these videos, which openly acknowledge the BPD connection and therefore might be a bit risky: https://youtu.be/TBM6XOYisCw

Noting I DO NOT mention DBT during periods of dysregulation - I tend to bring it up when things have just settled down but not yet too far away from the chaos. If I bring it up during good times she will most likely not understand why. Timing and wording is everything.

If my wife ever joins the DBT class near us, I have already decided I will get the book as well and work on it when she does. I think love and support are crucial.

Based on your current status, do you think any of the above is feasible, or better to wait until you've settled into a more stable situation?

~ROE  

[wellthisisnofun]

Well, I am struggling greatly at the moment. Enabler, when you said that my wife had removed all of the light from our relationship, you are so correct. I feel completely shut out, as if we've never been married, and it's awful. I'm not sure she's seeing the effect on my, either. I refused to eat something the other night saying my stomach was off, and she asked why and if I was getting sick... .No! My stomach is in turmoil because my life has just been turned upside down and I'm >< this close to losing my wife, my plans, my future, my hopes and dreams, etc! Lack of empathy rearing it's head... .I know she's feeling it, too, but she's seeming to do a notably better job managing it than I am... .

The last 5 days since our "reconvene", she has been completely detached and barely spoken to me, even when I've tried. "How was your day?" gets "Fine" and nothing else. And so on... .A few times my innocuous questions were triggers and I got responses that were unnecessarily biting, certainly reflecting how she is feeling about things at the moment (and the BPD continuing to show itself in many forms). At other times the conversation has been briefly normal - what's going on in the news, did you see X, how about that thing on TV, etc., so a bit of "all over the place" there.

She is mostly staying upstairs in our bedroom, and I am mostly staying downstairs in our living area. I have been sick to my stomach nearly the whole time, still somewhat in limbo but also trying to assume and prepare for the worst. We have been sleeping in different beds since this all first happened a bit over 2 weeks ago (including when I went to a hotel for the week). I'm in a guest bedroom, feeling displaced from our master br. She will come downstairs sometimes to get something, and go back up. Often time it feels like we are ghosts in the same home.

I'm left having no idea what to do, since as you may recall I had committed to her that I would do a lot to work on things, some of which includes things that can only apply to the two of us (but also working on me - reconnecting with friends, reading some self-help books, doing therapy, etc.). But she is not providing any single possible opening for connecting together, it seems.

For example, one of my commitments was that I would find something interesting for us to do around town each week, to liven up what we did on a weekly basis.Despite everything going on, I found something for this week, and yesterday afternoon I put myself out there with a text to suggest something for tonight - a talk on a topic that hit our area last year and that she was extremely moved by, so I knew she would find it interesting and different. She didn't respond. This morning when we saw each other I got up the courage to ask about her interest, and she said something about not sure of the time given when she gets back from work, and also a fear that the content might be "too depressing", but not saying no and leaving it open - so still no commitment either way to that, just like with the relationship overall. Here I am trying desperately to connect, and I am getting nothing in return. My heart is hurting.

SunandMoon, you suggested doing my best to bring some intimacy into the mix. I am all about that and it was part of what I had committed to her - but she is clearly completely closed off at the moment to anything beyond basic communication. So unless you are suggesting I try to break through this massive shield and barrier with something like an unexpected tight hug and I love you, I regret that at this point that would likely be met with a fairy callous, "What are you doing?", and come off more as something about any desperation *I'm* feeling as opposed to something she would take as "I'm here and not abandoning you." I'm happy to do that if folks think I should try to break through like that - but she certainly does not seem receptive.

ROE - thank you for getting back to me and no worries about the travel. I appreciate the description of how you are trying to coax your wife towards DBT. And I can only imagine how it must feel having to deal with the police, stealing, etc. I very much feel for you and wish you the very best there. Right now, I feel like I am in a position where she is so far out the door (or, at least, detached) that using techniques like setting boundaries, the YouTube video, etc., just aren't even in the equation. This would require some knowledge that she values our relationship and wants to make it better with me, even if only in the slightest way - but right now, I've got anything BUT that. It's mostly "I don't know, but I'm leaning no." As someone said earlier, perhaps she really does know and just hasn't been able to make the final call yet. Ugh.

You did mention having a lot more you'd like to say, ROE, and if you care to share any of that, I'm all ears.

I am on a particularly heinous roller coaster at the moment. There's the normal day-to-day BPD coaster, and then there is this one where my security is out the window and I am experiencing great fear, anxiety, emptiness, loneliness, uncertainty, etc.

I have recently been prescribed Lexapro by the therapist I see who is licensed to prescribe things, as well as Xanax for the more acute moments. I really do feel these things physically - that's my makeup - and it can be really limiting for me when it happens. I'm five days into the Lexapro, with today the first full strength dose. I was on Lexapro once before, perhaps 12-13 years ago, for a few years. I do remember it taking some of the edge off and permitting me to "cope" better the last time, but that's gonna take 3-4 weeks to even start to feel it. And I have to work through some of the jittery side effects in the meantime, which don't help when you're trying to ca;m yourself! The Xanax helps greatly for a few hours when I take one, and I'm on small a smaller dose, but gotta be careful with it - don't want to overuse. Then again, this is what and when it's for.

Has anyone used Lexapro in a similar situation, to help you cope with the start of something like this? After the 3-4 weeks or so, did you notice you were able to "deal" with it all a bit better? Perhaps think more clearly, with the lows being notably less low? Would love to hear some experiences there.

The two books I'm reading are Codependent No More, and Get Out Of Your Head & Into Your Life. So clearly I have discovered that I am the caretaker here, with codependent traits, and enmeshed in our relationship, and am hoping for some assistance and insight through reading these books. That is through a combo of my own learning, much reading here, and talking with my therapist(s).

As far as where things really stand, I will admit that I have *really* been trying to find my wise mind center point and ask myself: Is this something you really want? You have been unhappy for years as well, not getting what you need. The likelihood of her changing so much that she gives you what you really want out of love is very low - so why stay? Why not cut your losses and move on? Are you only concerned about the loneliness, fear, uncertainty, etc.? If so, is that a good enough reason to try to stay, even when it looks like she might be out the door?

And frankly, I have several friends telling me this as well - some who have seen our interactions for a long time (and pulled back cause they didn't want to get involved with he drama) and have wanted to tell me to "get out.". But of course, I can't get my head and my gut to synch up on this, at least not yet. My gut is feeling the loss already so specifically, so intensely - that even if I know deep down inside that "this isn't right for me", all of the fears and emotions around the loss of what I did have, or the idea of it - even if bad, at least secure and stable - come flooding in and I can't seem to get to a place to be "okay" with it, and to have confidence that my future WOULD be brighter and happier without her, whether by myself or with someone else. I have always been scared of not having someone in life, going back to my late teens - it's something I've known about myself but have not been able to do much about, and I feel that intensely. There are no obvious reasons why, when I've explored this - I had a great childhood and amazing supportive parents that, thankfully, are still there for me.

Enabler and SunandMoon, you both mentioned that I have a choice to make - and I see that. I just can't seem to find one that I will be okay with in terms of my gut and my emotions and the consequences of what comes next. And my wife isn't even letting me near the one that would more immediately help those feelings, even if I admit it may not be "best for me."

I know limbo of "no decision on what we are doing" can't go on forever, but who knows how or when that will get resolved. Part of me is thinking that maybe I wait for the Lexapro to kick in before I really push things, if I have to, so that I am better able to cope with whatever answer becomes reality. Just a few weeks, perhaps. Not sure if that's healthy thinking or what.

So in the meantime, I'm caught in limbo, feeling like I do and thinking like I do. And it sucks really, really bad. I know many of you know, all too well. Help.

[RolandOfEld]

My gut is feeling the loss already so specifically, so intensely - that even if I know deep down inside that "this isn't right for me", all of the fears and emotions around the loss of what I did have, or the idea of it - even if bad, at least secure and stable - come flooding in and I can't seem to get to a place to be "okay" with it, and to have confidence that my future WOULD be brighter and happier without her, whether by myself or with someone else.

The fear of losing everything we've worked so hard to build is very difficult to cope with, wtinf. We watch the people around us build while everything in our lives seems to be falling apart. We've been with the person so long that it's very hard to visualize a future without them. I've got you here.

There's one point that's made it especially hard for me - I live in my wife's country in Asia. We have always dreamed of moving to the US, where I am from. But if we split, that becomes next to impossible since she would definitely stay here and I want the kids to be close to their mother. Which in effect means I could NEVER go home unless she comes with us. But I'm trying not to let that idea dampen my thinking on the possibility of leaving her. Life is full of surprises, and it may offer me a different route home at the right time.

While I am not suggesting that you marriage will definitely end since that is still up in the air, you might want to start practicing visualizing a future without your wife, one in which you are happy. Then see if you can accept it as a possible future. This is a step by step process and doesn't happen overnight.

Let me ask you, is it your wife you are more afraid of losing (the person) or the life you've built together (shared history, house, plans for future, etc)? How do you feel when you imagine yourself dating someone new, someone who can fully respect your feelings and make you feel safe enough to be intimate?

~ROE

[wellthisisnofun]

Thanks, ROE. I will respond to your note in kind. But I wanted to mention something that happened here since last post.

My wife likes to "rage text". Some of her most biting, aggressive put-downs can be over text. They often leave me feeling nauseous. I got one a couple hours after my last post above, first in relation to her decision as to whether to go to the event I had asked her to go to tonight. Here it is:

I don't have it in me to go to this. I asked you for time and space and you came home a week on the nose with asking me how I was feeling and now I'm just irritated that you're all of a sudden a tea drinker and a tincture taker and leaving your self help book posed conspicuously and passive-aggressively on the floor in the kitchen. The I find out you reached out to [father in law] and tell him what's going on? That is not your place. I would never think to call your mom and dad to tell them what's going on.

Allow me to unpack this:

I don't have it in me to go to this. [Okay, I get it - you're upset and that has made you either not want to do this, or provided a good excuse not to if you already didn't want to go]

I asked you for time and space and you came home a week on the nose [Which is what we very specifically agreed to when the "terms" of my time in the hotel were discussed. In fact, I came home 5 hours later than when I left]

with asking me how I was feeling [That I can buy - I was the one who started and told her how much I had missed her and loved her and wanted to work on it, but we sure did into a discussion about her feelings]

and now I'm just irritated that you're all of a sudden a tea drinker and a tincture taker [My stomach is in stitches, I'm not eating that great, and I have super high anxiety about all this, and worried about sleeping well, so I am trying to have calming tea instead of coffee in the AM and having it irritate my empty stomach; a friend suggested a CBD tincture and a tried it, and told her I got some - so far meh; but my wife does think of my as anti-pot given how much she smokes]

and leaving your self help book posed conspicuously and passive-aggressively on the floor in the kitchen. [I didn't mean to do that; I also left it out on the coffee table. I'm reading it and I'm an open book on this. She's the one that asked me to get some help - I am doing that with both therapy and reading books as part of my commitment. Should I hide that?]

Then I find out you reached out to [father in law, who acts mostly like real Dad since real Dad abandoned / disowned her 12 years ago] and tell him what's going on? [I did not reach out to him to tell him what was going on - I told him and his wife, with whom I have a great relationship, that I presumed he had heard that we were having issues and that only my wife would be attending an event that we had both planned to go to in honor of him, and that I was really sorry about it. I did throw in that I loved my wife and was committed to doing everything I could to work on it]

That is not your place. I would never think to call your mom and dad to tell them what's going on.  [Not true. Several years ago, after a raging blow up with my parents for no reason at a restaurant, where she got up in a rage and left us all there dumbfounded (not the first or only time that happened with them, of course) she actually took my Dad aside later and pleaded with him to tell him what was going on with the problems I had]

So... .Having learned a bit here in terms of trying not to JADE, validating feelings, etc., I thought about it a bit, and then texted this back. I realize this isn't perfect, but I think I did better than I normally would have:

Okay. I understand you not feeling up for the event tonight, and that what I have done here upsets you. Your feelings are extremely important to me, especially when you are upset. I am also feeling very devastated, and clearly not handling it as good as I would like. I will try to do better.

I have not heard back, and when I got back from work she was not here - probably off with a friend having a drink both because she's angry and to send me a further message. And probably spreading misinformation about what I did, turning said friend against me.

How did I do?

[wellthisisnofun]

Update! It didn’t work. Apparently she’s extremely upset I contacted her family at all. Still my family mind you. Someone told her me and her father in law talked today. Not true. either way, she’s in a big rage, and I needed to set the record straight so told her what actually happened. Daof I understood her anger and was sorry for that, but it didn’t happen the way she’s conceiving it. Didn’t matter. She  just left for a hotel for at least the evening. Wow, I’m on a roll here.

[Enabler]

Why did you need to set the record straight? Why did you need to correct her narrative?

[RolandOfEld]

wtinf please don't blame yourself. Try to remember that she's the one who started this chaos and is finding every opportunity to keep it rolling. Consider every time you said / did something that didn't cause an explosion an achievement, not those moments where she lost it failures. You may be the trigger, but you are not the cause. Try to detach and live your life while she runs around in a storm of divorce threats, yelling about conversations that didn't take place, books you didn't leave on the floor, etc.

This is her show. Step back and observe and let it run its course.  

~ROE

[wellthisisnofun]

Why did you need to set the record straight? Why did you need to correct her narrative?

Maybe I'm just still learning on what to do in these situations. I did completely validate her feelings the whole time. But I was being accused of something that didn't happen, with that being used as the basis for her anger and why she was going to a hotel, and she asked me for more detail - so I provided that, letting her know what happened, factually. Throughout, I felt like I was always validating her feelings and her anger, saying I heard and understood and was sorry she was feeling that way - but when it comes to validating inaccuracies, I assumed I shouldn't do that. And she was threatening to go to a hotel, so I was hoping that any possible logic left in her would integrate what I said into what she was thinking about subvert that. Clearly that did not happen.