"When are you going to be a good girl?" What the heck?

[loyalwife]

   In three days a lot can happen. I know the drill all too well and this is not like any other time, except I am fed up with being told that "I'm a bad girl". Is this the way BPD's see others that don't see eye to eye with their delusions? This started over a simple request for a family day, dinners with my kids etc., which led to my uBPDh declaring that he hates my son and doesn't want to be in the same room with him ever.  He sulked, said mean things to me and basically removed himself.  This morning he said that he would rather be alone. Same words, over and over and over again.  I watched his eyes and I could tell that this might be ending, and at times just thought "He's crazy". Knowing that the storm will pass helps, but doesn't make it any easier to hear the words.

   Fast forward a few hours later, and he slowly comes back to his normal. He says "Are you ever going to be a good girl?" Why am I the bad guy in this equation? I won't take the rap though and answered "I don't know, can you uphold your end of the deal?" I finally asked that he put something into the relationship. Not even 50%, but 10% more. I asked that he let off some of the steam that is like a pressure cooker. He understood as we both tried to illustrate how we felt with a glass of water. He said that I had the ability to give him relief from his thirst but I refused. I demonstrated with the glass of water that I had a different approach and that with little sips at a time, I gave him water. He seemed to grasp it, went outside to be alone and after a few hours everything he emerged 'fine'.   When he looks at me though he keeps saying "you're such a troublemaker".

  I do not understand this. 

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[BasementDweller]

Hi, loyalwife!

I'm sorry you are enduring this most frustrating situation. The more I read on this site, the more amazed I become at how BPD, being a spectrum disorder which affects everyone a little differently, there are still some odd little behaviors that seem universal, right down to some of the things they say. We have people here from Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia, maybe Africa? ... .and it seems that no matter what the BPD's mother tongue, nationality or culture, some of these "quotes" are universal. My jaw dropped when I read your post.

My partner can be rather passive aggressive/sarcastic when he is dysregulated, but usually when he is on the upswing. When he's really at the pinnacle (or maybe apex?) of his dysregulation, he can be either rudely insulting or totally silent and avoidant. Or he will tell me the relationship is over and he is leaving. This has gone on for years.

I give him his space, and when he wants to reconnect, he will come around me, a little sullen, and say something like "No more picking on me ok?"

To which I'll politely reply. "I don't wish to pick on you."

He'll retreat a bit, then come back with "Are you gonna be nice to me?" To which I'll just reply, "Sure! Let's be nice to each other!"

And he'll pout a bit and say, "I'm ALWAYS nice".

It's almost sort of cute, but this is a grown middle aged man. When he starts "coming around again" I typically have to coax him a little, and not push, but just be a bit lighthearted about it. Kind of like you do when your 5 year old is mad at you, and wants reassurance that he or she is "back in your good graces" and can come back to you to recharge. I don't mean to belittle my partner by comparing him to a child, but BPD behavior can be child-like, and his definitely is sometimes, because he was badly abused as a child. In some ways, there is arrested development in his coping/communication skills, though he is highly intelligent.

I think the "Are you gonna be good/Are you gonna be nice?" routine might be their way of wanting to re-establish connection, but want to be sure you are receptive. I know my partner uses the silent treatment/cold shoulder toward me when he's really distraught, but when he starts to get lonely and "wants me back" he prefaces it with a sarcastic joke to see if I am receptive. Even though we are not the ones dysregulating, I think they fear that their attempts to push us away might actually work, and when they want to come back, we won't let them. So they test the waters with these types of "jokes".

And just like you said... ."You're such a troublemaker!"  I almost see that as a term of endearment now, because it means he's offering a "test shot" to reconnect. He wants to make it clear that he's got me on "probation" but also to see if I'll laugh with him, or freak out. If I get upset, then he'll retreat again and say "See, I told you you were going to be horrible! I can't talk to you!" And the cycle will continue. So I just don't play that.

Mine's favorite line is "You're such a difficult woman!" or "You are the most stubborn person I know!" (A bit of projection there, minus the "woman" part.) 

Since I really don't want to prolong the battle, or JADE, or "take the bait" I have actually learned, in my partner's case, ribald or twisted humor helps when he's on the upswing. Especially if it disarms him. The last time he said "You're the most stubborn person I know!" I put on my best American southern redneck accent (he's European) and said with a drawl and a smile while pretending to draw two guns from the hip holsters, "Goddamn right, mother-f*cker!" (I was neither wearing a holster, nor guns, mind you. But one of his favorite putdowns when he's mad is to tell me that all our fights are because I am an angry, aggressive, violent American.)   I use this to my advantage and turn it around, because it's just so absurd.

Crass, yes. But it worked. He laughed out loud and found it quite amusing. It usually does when he's in that phase. He just wants to get his fears and frustration across, and maybe also get a bit of comic relief. Dysregulating is exhausting and painful. They don't enjoy it, but they can't help it. They usually want relief after a while.

Could you possibly use humor with him? Next time he tells you you're a trouble maker, can you give him a big smile and a playful swat on the butt, and say "I like to keep things exciting for you! *wink* It might work, because you aren't taking the bait of getting upset.

[isilme]

This all stems from the BPD need to avoid feeling responsible, in charge of, or blame for their feelings and how they act based on them.

I think, after 22 years observing my H, that they think feelings originate from other people.  They don't see how they feel as having ANY origin within themselves.  So, if my H feels fat one day (his appearance is a big deal to him), it must be MY fault he feels fat.  I must be thinking he's ugly and sending him signals subtly.  It can't possibly be that he has always struggled with self-esteem and his appearance is a big part of that struggle, and so HIS feelings are just being projected onto me because he can't take responsibility or ownership of them.

If H stubs his toe on his own shoes HE left out, it's MY fault his shoes were out.  He will engage in the most limber mental gymnastics to avoid being at fault or wrong in any situation.  Until the toxic shame sets in, then he falls into a funk, where he's lower than low, scum of the earth, the worst person ever.  THESE are his real feelings.  He thinks everyone else shares them, because to him, it's a hard concept to grasp that I and the rest of the world can have independent, separate and alternate feelings from what he is experiencing. 

"Will you be a good girl" means, "will you stop making me feel angry/frustrated/bad/low self-worth - whatever"  He is not where he can/will accept that his feelings originate within him, that he can learn to manage them, and that YOU are not responsible for HIS feelings.

I know hearing the words hurts.  I have been working on seeing the words as a symptom, like a fever, of the condition, and try to not internalize them as much as I can avoid.  I know his feelings are his facts, and that they shift with his moods, and his moods shift based on sleep, illness, and now his sugar levels.  So, he will say many things depending on what time of day it is (and even what day of the week - Sundays are the worst, it triggers depression and that makes him prone to outbursts).  so, since his "facts" are like sand shifting in the wind, like you, I try to ride it out, ignore what I can ignore, and address what I must.  Just remembering that they don't reason like you do can help with a little of the sting.

One other thing - H told me he can't process anger or other feelings without basically shouting at a person.  It does not have to even be a person-caused event - it can be raining when he wants to be outside.  This was a rare moment of clarity for him, and I now know that many times he yells, I can distance myself from it by realizing he's not actually yelling at ME, he's shouting and I am in the room as a security blanket. 

[BasementDweller]

This all stems from the BPD need to avoid feeling responsible, in charge of, or blame for their feelings and how they act based on them.

I think, after 22 years observing my H, that they think feelings originate from other people.  They don't see how they feel as having ANY origin within themselves.  So, if my H feels fat one day (his appearance is a big deal to him), it must be MY fault he feels fat.  I must be thinking he's ugly and sending him signals subtly.  It can't possibly be that he has always struggled with self-esteem and his appearance is a big part of that struggle, and so HIS feelings are just being projected onto me because he can't take responsibility or ownership of them.

If H stubs his toe on his own shoes HE left out, it's MY fault his shoes were out.  He will engage in the most limber mental gymnastics to avoid being at fault or wrong in any situation.  Until the toxic shame sets in, then he falls into a funk, where he's lower than low, scum of the earth, the worst person ever.  THESE are his real feelings.  He thinks everyone else shares them, because to him, it's a hard concept to grasp that I and the rest of the world can have independent, separate and alternate feelings from what he is experiencing. 

"Will you be a good girl" means, "will you stop making me feel angry/frustrated/bad/low self-worth - whatever"  He is not where he can/will accept that his feelings originate within him, that he can learn to manage them, and that YOU are not responsible for HIS feelings.

I know hearing the words hurts.  I have been working on seeing the words as a symptom, like a fever, of the condition, and try to not internalize them as much as I can avoid.  I know his feelings are his facts, and that they shift with his moods, and his moods shift based on sleep, illness, and now his sugar levels.  So, he will say many things depending on what time of day it is (and even what day of the week - Sundays are the worst, it triggers depression and that makes him prone to outbursts).  so, since his "facts" are like sand shifting in the wind, like you, I try to ride it out, ignore what I can ignore, and address what I must.  Just remembering that they don't reason like you do can help with a little of the sting.

One other thing - H told me he can't process anger or other feelings without basically shouting at a person.  It does not have to even be a person-caused event - it can be raining when he wants to be outside.  This was a rare moment of clarity for him, and I now know that many times he yells, I can distance myself from it by realizing he's not actually yelling at ME, he's shouting and I am in the room as a security blanket. 

This is extremely insightful isilme, and I am in the far earlier stages (only about 2.5 years together) or trying to grapple with and address this complex situation with my partner attributing his feelings (usually the bad ones) to me and something I must have done to him. How do you deal with it? Sometimes even everything in the BPD toolkit fails me.

[Tattered Heart]

This sounds so familiar. It's hard for them to look at themselves and see where the go wrong. It's so much easier to blame others for their feelings. I hope your conversation got through to him a little. At the same time, it could be a temporary understanding until the next time he has strong emotions.

Does he always talk to you like he is the parent and you are the child? Does this language bother you? Do you think in his mind it puts you on a lower level than him?

[loyalwife]

Tattered Heart: Yes. This bothers me.

    He even said yesterday that he ranked me as an 8 and he a 9. I laughed because it was so weird. When I asked what constituted his ranking system, he said he didn't want to get into it. I felt good to be an 8, but really he thinks he's a 9? insert sneer.   Closest I could find. From the beginning of our relationship he has made it clear that he is in charge of everything and superior. Control.
     When I met him, I could see signs of this 'parenting', but let it slide. I'd been alone for 20 years while I raised my kids so having a partner was a prayer come true. What I didn't expect though was someone that controlled everything and threw tantrums if they didn't get their way. As time has passed, I see the pattern and have been slowly breaking free. (My own Credit Cards, Bank Account etc.)  Since he doesn't want to share his information with me, I do the same. He does treat me like a child even though he says he hated being a parent to his own child and that he doesn't want to be a parent (step) to my kids.
     It was a whirlwind romance as I've heard so many here on the board talk about. We met in January, I moved in by April and we were engaged by June. Little did I realize that he was still married when we announced our engagement on Facebook. His daughter threw a fit (I couldn't understand at the time). Quickly his ex moved to sign the divorce papers and she and the daughter changed their names.  He put me on a pedestal, which felt good for the first time in my life, but then after we were married it all changed. He had outbursts of anger and finally asked me to quit my job. Every time I look for a job or have an interview he says that he needs me to help him so that 'we' can get ahead. He doesn't really want me to be far away from him, yet when he pushes me away, he tells me he wants to be alone and wishes he could be.
     His daughter once called him a 'man child'. They do not have a relationship and haven't for the entire time we have been married. At times when he is raging at me, I cannot help but think about his ex and daughter and what they must have withstood.
     There are times that I feel that I can be an equal (business etc.), but then when he hides information or doesn't want to share anything with me, I feel like a second class citizen. Even my kids can't understand why he treats me like a girlfriend... .or worse, his daughter. As crazy as that sounds.
      Today when he talked about revising his business plan and lessening the workload that he has, I reiterated that this was another way to take the pressure off. I likened him to a pressure cooker, that blew every time it got overheated. He could understand that I think. He knows that I am resisting the blame. Even if he says it's my fault, that doesn't make it true.
      I also think he is seeing me a little differently in that I'm not running after him every time he blows up. It's getting easier to separate when the push/pull happens.
     Thanks to this board for that.

[spero]

Hello there loyalwife,

How are you doing?

I am fed up with being told that "I'm a bad girl". Is this the way BPD's see others that don't see eye to eye with their delusions?

I suppose, this has to do with their polarised worldview of something or a person either being "good" or "bad". Now the issue with this is, as we all know... .what really is good? or what really is bad?. What your uBPDh considers "good" may and perhaps to a high degree is skewed or distorted. The "good" that he is referring can go along the lines of, "Attending to all my needs, giving me things the way I want them and how I want exactly at the time I want it."

Your uBPDh seems to suggest that in his subjective view of you being "bad", you've perhaps not acceded to his requests exactly way he wants them (because he needs to have control). Now of course, this has no correlation whether such a request is reasonable or even attainable in the first place.

Along the same lines of distorted cognition, my uBPDexGF constantly thought that if i was indeed the one for her, i would know exactly what she wants without her telling me. Now, we all know that it takes time to know a person and that, to me is just impossible, unless you are some psychic. Since i can't read her mind. I don't love her.

It seems that... your son is a trigger for him as much as we have discussed in an earlier thread and i reiterate my point that he is jealous that you're giving time and attention, which in your uBPDh's perspective is... "his and only his". I suppose you've come to a certain degree of understanding that when he is dysregulated, or tantrum throwing, being reasonable is unfortunately and regrettably out of the question.

I think in your context, what feels like the underlying issue goes back to the issue of "rejection", if your uBPDh tilts more toward BPD than NPD. By giving your son attention that your uBPDh feels is "rightfully" his,  he would be feeling jealous and rejection and his thought process may perhaps be interpreted as such.

(This interpretation is more inclined toward the BPD spectrum rather than NPD, noting that individuals with BPD do have co-morbidity with NPD )- My wife is giving the love meant for me to her son (i've mentioned this before that your uBPDh may not have direct bond with your son and in such a situation may associate your son as an extension of you, rather than him being a father to your son), so therefore i am unworthy of being loved and when i am perceived to be rejected, i then rage with jealousy. In doing so, he then escalates the matter out of proportion.

If you'd like to understand more about what i've mentioned above, you may find this article from Psychology Today titled "New Findings on Emotions in Borderline Personality Disorder", which you can follow by clicking  here

I finally asked that he put something into the relationship. Not even 50%, but 10% more. I asked that he let off some of the steam that is like a pressure cooker.

I am curious how long into the relationship before you've decided to "fight" for your boundaries. Has your uBPDh reacted in a consistent way to that?

He said that I had the ability to give him relief from his thirst but I refused.

Well, i would perhaps put it this way. You didn't refuse, loyalwife. You just didn't do it the way he wanted it. This goes back to the points i've raised before this.

I demonstrated with the glass of water that I had a different approach and that with little sips at a time, I gave him water. He seemed to grasp it, went outside to be alone and after a few hours everything he emerged 'fine'.   

I think that what you've done is akin to practicing "mindfulness", it creates a reality which sometimes an individual with BPD is unable to imagine or visualise. Engaging the senses is helpful, something which can be physically experienced and yet at the same time open a new paradigm of thinking. Which perhaps might be why your uBPDh had his emotions "de-escalated".

I hope this helps.

Takeheart loyalwife. We're here to listen

Spero.

[Tattered Heart]

I'm glad to hear that you are able to separate yourself a little more from the chaos. You mentioned that you think he has noticed a change. How does he react to this?

I remember when my H noticed something was different. It was almost surreal because I watched him change tactics in the middle of trying to get to me. When that didn't work, he tried several other ways of attacking me and when none of them worked he almost looked defeated.

[Jessica84]

Wow. So relatable!

When I get accused of troublemaking, I get one of these... .
 
"Why are you starting trouble?"
"Are you trying to argue?"
"Can you be nice to me for once?"
"Are you going to behave?"
"I don't want to get there and have you ruin everything"

Oh, he's such a victim! Used to infuriate me... now I play with it. Like BasementDweller's partner, humor/sarcasm seems to ease the tension with my guy. Also helps me be me, which keeps me calmer. I have to watch my tone, not sound angry, and smile big. He'll usually see the absurdity and lighten up... .

"Yup, Trouble is my middle name! Nice to meet ya."
"You know me, I live for these messy disagreements!"
"Okaaaaay... .Won't be easy for a superb-tch like me, but I'll try"
"Behave? Where's the fun in that?"
"Aww man, I really wanted to go on vacation and fight with you!"

    

[loyalwife]

     Now, I'm in tears. I finally feel as though the crazy episodes are making sense; I'm not alone. I've always been a peacemaker, one to avoid arguing and to find solutions before the problems got out of whack. To be considered a troublemaker, goes against my fabric of being. But as you say, it's their way of normalizing and avoiding the responsibility. Since this is the 'game' that they play and believe in their heads is the truth, then best to play along. He always mentions that we argue, even if the discussion is neutral. In his head, it is an argument and he is trying to win.
     The biggest mistake I have made is that in the beginning I chose not to put boundaries in place. I found that if I remained silent on the subject, it would blow over, or would it. Most of the time it just came back over and over again, more powerful and complex. The issue with my son is one of them. Sure there were times that he acted as if my son was 'okay' with him, but he never was. The therapist once said "don't believe him when he says it's okay". She was right.
     One of the changes that I have noticed during one of the episodes is that if I disengage, act uninterested or 'cry', he de-escalates. I am also trying to be more aware of his triggers. Today, I'm meeting my son for lunch. I'm not mentioning anything, just that I have plans. He said "oh yeah, with Stone". My son's dog is having health issues, (I've been taking care of him) and he wants to come over to see him. I will text my uBPDh and let him know that he might want to be aware of this and stay distant, since he never wants to see my son again. It's so childish and silly, but like so many issues, if I cater to his wishes and act as though it doesn't bother me (and my son doesn't care), perhaps someday it will get better. I don't want to lie about seeing my son as that goes against my values. My son is Autistic (Asbergers) and recognizes J___'s moods etc., but he doesn't get the reason that he hates him as he does. In my son's mind he's done everything that has been asked of him and all should be fine now. He doesn't have the capacity to harbor the kind of hate or resentment or jealousy that my husband has for him. Although my uBPDh acts as if my visiting with my son is okay, I know it isn't and I also know that he may make me pay for doing so in some way. This is when he considers I'm a 'bad' girl. And it's true, it's because I am not completely abandoning my family for him. (this includes my pets)
     Today, it's a good day. One of the cars alarms went off accidentally. He ran in the house screaming and nervous. Of course the noise was loud, it is an alarm. I've noticed that he has zero tolerance for loud noises (fireworks etc.) and this throws him into a tailspin. I came out of my office, stood erect and calm and said "It's okay. It will stop soon." It wasn't what I said as much as how I said it. The running common thread seems to be moments of relapses, or PTSD from chaotic, abusive, childhood situations that throw him back into his past. As a loving mother and wife, the unconditional love I can give, is the stronghold. What I am learning is that none of this is possible without self care.  
      Yes, today is a good day. I'd be silly to think that this will last. The one sure thing though is that it doesn't need to get as bad as it did in the past. Once you have the knowledge (and you have all helped me discover this), it is brought out into the light and loses it's power.