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Author Topic: What is your message?  (Read 462 times)
Harri
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« on: April 12, 2018, 05:36:50 PM »

Hi.  I have been trying to figure out what my main message is regarding my experiences growing up in a severely dysfunctional family.  What do I have to say and offer others about my life up to this point, not as a lesson or as inspiration but what value have my experiences served for me?

So far I have changed my understanding of the purpose of my experiences and that has left me floundering, wondering what the point is.  I also spent a lot of time trying to find my meaning and message without looking at my lifetime experiences and I finally realized, by posting here and in therapy, that I can't really separate me from them if that makes sense.  I can't deny how I got to be who I am today.  Some of who I am is because of what I experienced and some is in spite of my experiences.

So what is your message at this point?  I don't care where you are on this journey.  Are you just taking your first step to recovery?  Tell us about what you have to say about the journey at this point.  Fully recovered?  Post and share how you got there.  Somewhere in between?  Go for it. 
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 07:04:37 PM »

Hi Harri

This is a good 'thinking' thread.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) The process of trying to pull some meaning from our past is a tough yet relentless process. I believe it must be something each one of us questions. Sometimes I'll observe famous people or read a book or see a fundraiser for someone who has made/found meaning in their life from all the hardship they've gone through. Not sure I'm there yet either, but I have to believe that we haven't gone through these struggles for nothing.

One example in my own life is that because of my struggles, I am able to offer   to those who come here to this site. You can as well. We offer understanding as one of the meanings in our life. I also think the meaning or purpose can shift as we grown and learn and change. That's an awesome thing.

 
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2018, 02:20:26 AM »

I want to follow this, but think about it.   So in it original Star trek computer voice, "working."
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2018, 09:07:14 AM »

Hi Harri,

      Great thread, great question to ask. I'm 60 my parents are both still living. When I first started here on the board it put a bug in my brain: is my dad BPD or is it the alcohol? So hard to separate, which came first. The more I read, learn here I do believe he is BPD then self medicated all his life. His realities were impossible to live with and grow up under. The toll of his behaviors, meltdowns, demanding has had a devastating out come on myself and my siblings.
       I spent 15 years in intense therapy 2 times a week, every week. At one point I thought it was never going to end. Thankfully I have come to many major life decisions, good ones that have worked for me. I use to have survivor guilt because I found a way out(so to speak) of the dysfunction and my siblings didn't. Then I turned my guilt into being productive, became a counselor. As for myself I can't separate who I am from what I lived through. IT MADE ME WHO I AM, BUT IT DOES DEFINE WHO I AM.
       I use my spirituality and my personal experience to share with others who suffer that there can be recovery, there can be peace. For me in this journey I have to keep moving forward, I'll never forget all the pain and horrible suffering I went through. I also have to believe healing can come.
      My dad is now 83, my mom is 79. She protected him from all fall out of his behaviors. For the last 20 years I have the most minimal contact. I made a point of telling my mother why I wasn't calling, coming over or spending any time at their house with either of them. Once again she found a way to turn her accountability around and it my problem by saying "why can't you forgive?, he's just an old man now" REALLY, REALLY! Wow, no wonder I choose to walk away.
      It's taken a lot of hard work and I'm so grateful I had the stamina to do it; I had to prove to myself that he wouldn't win by destroying me or turning me into what he is. I value the lessons inflicted on me, because I know I never will be  THAT HATEFUL SICK PERSON. I will treat others with kindness and care and show them that if I can do it, so can they.
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2018, 10:22:50 AM »

I want to follow this, but think about it.   So in it original Star trek computer voice, "working."

Turkish too funny!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

To all of you,

I can't tell you what your intended messages are that is for you to define. 

However, I can tell you what I have received... .

I have received insight into what my SO's daughters could be experiencing or have experienced in terms of their uBPDmom.

That insight has helped me avoid many pitfalls as I have developed my relationship with them.  I had my SO's younger daughter who is diagnosed with PTSD tell me I am one of her "safe people" (translation I Love You).  I don't know if I would have ever heard something like that without everyone here.

The other message you send is that you can survive your childhood, and with work take that journey to "thrive".   

One really big message coming from the folks here is EMPATHY!  It is huge among you all, I'm not sure if that is because of or in spite of your childhoods but you all have it in spades! 

And I couldn't end this post without mentioning Humor, there can be absolute silliness around here sometimes which is a nice counter point to some of the intense discussions. Coping Mechanism?  Maybe, but still fun none the less.

Whether or not you define your message in words, your message is still getting out there, I am just one recipient.

Panda39
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2018, 03:48:54 PM »

Hi all.  You have some wonderful thoughts about this.  I am still struggling with finding my message and the purpose in my life.  Maybe my difficulty is that I am looking for some grand big thing that I can call my own.  I can't tell yet.  What is enough?  Certainly when I read your words (still waiting on you Sir Turkish!) you all seem so grand to me.  Seriously.  I feel proud and full of admiration and such warmth for you all.  Helping others, being a beacon in the storm, all sound so huge to me... .for you.  For me?  I feel like I owe the world more for my very existence.

Do I have a debt to pay?  I feel like I do.  Is it the lingering voice that is so ingrained into my being that says that I am less than and even evil?  That I exist simply as a catalyst for someone else's epiphany?  That I serve as a cautionary tale for others to know what not to do or else?

These are not simply the negative thoughts born of depression.  They are a part of me and have been for so long.  They come from my severely mentally ill mother and my own limited woefully inadequate ability to cope and overcome.  I get that part.  Is it possible to shed those ingrained beliefs?  I can see and accept the positives in me now.  It took a lot of hard work through triggers, anger, denial, self-flaggelation to get there.  I can own that.  But deep down those beliefs still nag at me and try to keep me down, whispering 'You're special Harri, so what applies to others does not apply to you.  You get a different set of rules".  Part of me hears that and thinks "how arrogant and egotistical!" but the rest of me just curls up into a ball of shame and the need to make so many amends that it is overwhelming to me.  I don't know.  This glob of Goop has been such a sticking point.  I keep trying to kick my way through it and I get more and more sticky with the slime.  It is tricky slime too cuz I think I have it cleaned up only to find it is back and just as entangled with my innermost self.

Cynical thought:  we can talk all we want about the benefits and positives we have given our experiences but who is to say we would not have had those qualities anyway?  Not to rain on anyones parade but... .what if there is no positive or meaning?  No purpose beyond just being?  Is that enough?  Can it be enough?
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2018, 06:24:03 AM »

Great topic, Harri! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Somewhere in between?  Go for it.

I’d like to start by saying that it is commendable of you to take experiences that you would not wish for anyone, and turn it into something that can be helpful for others. Understanding what many here have been through, and experiencing the other side, so to speak, things could’ve turned out quite different for us. Someone could be posting about us here. Somehow, someway, we have continued to push on towards healing and peace. We’ve hit the lowest of lows, but have just simply refused to give up. I’ve been very close to giving up, but at the end of the day, I didn’t.

I think, where I am right now, the best things I have to offer is validation and understanding. I often times find myself in tears on this forum. Sometimes it’s because I truly feel for a member, and sometimes it’s because I so closely relate to what a member is saying.

Through my education and interaction on this site, I can say I’ve been humbled. I’ve spent a lot of time feeling like a victim. I’ve grown passed that. I can proudly say that I am a survivor, and I’m beginning to accept that I’ve survived myself and my choices. Of course, I had no say or control over my childhood, but I do have that say and control over myself now, if I make the choice to. I control my destiny, uncontrollable outcomes don’t, in most instances. Through therapy and this support group, I’m learning that my childhood is something that happened to me, and it doesn’t define me unless I make the choice as an adult to allow that.

Eventually, I’ll be a Thriver. Once there, there is no going back, and I look forward to that more than I’ve ever looked forward to anything in my life. Thanks for this thread, HarriSmiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 07:43:26 AM »



Harri,

I agree... .good thinking thread.  I don't spend a lot of time on this board, but this one caught my eye.

  but what value have my experiences served for me?

They made you!  More importantly they helped you internalize the big "yes" and "no" questions in life about what you will do or be.  Usually in life, business and other things it's more important to figure out (really figure it out for sure) the "NO" or what you are NOT going to do.

I'm going to assume there are some unpleasant experiences that have led you to say "I'll never do (fill in the blank) to someone else"... .

So far I have changed my understanding of the purpose of my experiences and that has left me floundering, wondering what the point is. 

See above... .figuring out the "no" and perhaps leading to a "yes" that you are really passionate about. 


  that I can't really separate me from them if that makes sense.  I can't deny how I got to be who I am today.  Some of who I am is because of what I experienced and some is in spite of my experiences.

I would suggest that who you are is ALL "because of" your experiences.  I think I get the gist of your "in spite of" comment, I hope you'll stick with me as I ad some to that thought.

When you see a situation and realize that is should have made you bitter (for instance), yet "in spite of that" you found a way to move past bitter and be kind (perhaps to someone that doesn't deserve it... .I think that shows a resilience and toughness to be built upon

  Fully recovered?  

Hmmm... .I would hope that everyone would move past recovered/not recovered and perhaps think more about "I think I can climb a little higher on this mountain (perhaps the mountain top is obscured in the clouds... .so you don't really know where the top is). 

I do understand from my own personal experience there was a point in therapy where I realized I had the skills to express myself without "causing damage" or "hurt" to a reasonable person (I mean a pwBPD can be hurt by "good morning... "... .right?   )

Anyway... .I did sort of shift after that to "how can I be better?"  When I'm listening to my kids... how can I be "more present"?


Excerpt
Do I have a debt to pay?  I feel like I do.


Debt to who? 

Excerpt
Is it possible to shed those ingrained beliefs?

Hmmm... .I don't think you should shed them.  I do think you should "acknowledge them", perhaps use them in a different way.

While you may make different decisions, I would recommend you not forget where you have been... .even if some of that is unpleasant.

Great thread!

FF
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2018, 11:24:22 AM »

Harri,

    Just read your post. I have a few questions for you. Why isn't it okay to just be? You are who you are, isn't that enough? Why do you think-feel there has to be some great accomplishment? In my spirituality you are, there for you have value. You asked "no purpose beyond just being" Maybe you are answering your question. Just being is enough. Whether you add to or take from this life is not the point. We all do that in varying stages, give and take. I think the merrit or worth you attach to what to you do comes from yourself and how you feel about what you are doing. I just don't feek that we gain worth or impotance by what we do. Everyone has worth Harri, even you.
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2018, 04:55:21 PM »

Deserve.  That is the word that has been rolling around in the back of my head for a long time now, just rattling around aimlessly in the way-back area where the dust and cobwebs have collected.   During this aimless rolling, that word has collected the dirt of being special (long story there but basically a term that came to mean that I was born different and therefore deserved abuse, etc.), the shame that attaches itself to long held secrets of abuse and despicable acts by my parents and by my own self and the newer less familiar feeling of the pointlessness of it all.  I am sure there are other layers that I am unable to name right now, but the ones I can are all I can see right now.  

Deserve.  I swear I am not ignoring all of your posts.  They have helped me understand what is important to others and what has value.  I see them as a guide and I rejoice in the sense of purpose and value you have all reached.  You can help other people.  I can't think of a more worthy response to your experiences.  Wools, Panda, JNChell, bluek9, formflier how did you get to where you are comfortable and content in this awareness and knowledge?  I truly marvel at your responses.  yes, there are positives to every experience ad I see you have grasped those.  But your understanding and acceptance seems to go deeper as if it is a part of you.  

Bluek9 you say that you can tell people that peace is possible.  That makes me cry.  Peace is what I long for.  I do not want to leave this earth without knowing at least one moment of true peace.  I think of my Dad, the supposed non, who was so miserable in his life with my mother and yet when she died, there was no peace or relief, no quiet joy at being freed from his chosen prison.  And here I am, 11 years after my mom and 9 years after my father died and I am still haunted.  Peace.  :)oes anyone simply deserve peace or is it something one has to fight and scratch for?

Panda thanks for joining me on yet another of these threads that tie into being 'special', looking for meaning and *something* more.  Maybe the peace bluek9 mentioned is something that just is ... .<sorry, a continuance of a half baked thought I can't fully articulate and it might lead somewhere or it might not, but just in case I am leaving it here>  You m'dear are such a giver here on the boards in general and to me in particular that at first I did not understand what you were saying about being a recipient too.  Actually, hearing your perspective on that still surprises me a day later.  So maybe our voices serve as little seeds that we sprinkle all over the place.  We are all little Johnny appleseeds.  Go forth and multiply!  

Wools you too are such a giver and have certainly given me a lot over the years.  You talk about offering understanding.  I think that is something we can all offer here and it seems to be a good foundation upon which to build.  Thank you for pointing that out.   You said our meaning and purpose can shift as we grow.  That feels and sounds right and freeing in a way.  Knowing something like meaning and purpose is not an end goal that has to be sought and finished but rather an ever evolving state makes this more doable.  

JNChell, hello!  How interesting that you mentioned how we could have made different choices and ended up being the abusers.  Very apt.  The power of choice.  Often I think just one different decision and I could be in a very different place.  I am reminded of how fortunate I have been, though I am also able to look at the reality of my childhood as well (okay, not always but more than I did before! ).  Thank you for that.  I too believe you will be a Thriver and I look forward to hearing about whatever part of that journey you choose to share.

Formflier and bluek9, you asked question and challenged me on things that I am going to get back to.  Thank you.
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2018, 05:09:41 PM »

 What I have learned from growing up in a very dysfunctional family with a BPD mother, is that I have to be the best person I can be, so I can continue to attract the best people into my life. When I am feeling comfortable in my own skin and my boundaries are healthy, I am able to accept kind, caring people into my life. When I am at a low point, then I attract people that hurt me, and those type of people do not want anything to do with me when I am on the right track. My message is: We have to be our own best friend to be able to give and receive love, and heal from hurt and betrayal.
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 05:49:54 PM »



   Wools, Panda, JNChell, bluek9, formflier how did you get to where you are comfortable and content in this awareness and knowledge?  

So... .let's take PTSD (for me).  Military and other experiences have exposed me to a tremendous amount of loss due to danger, people doing dangerous things when they shouldn't have, or people just straight up being stupid or inattentive. 

So... my "danger" meter is likely not calibrated correctly or is far to conservative.  If I see a situation and perceive it to be an 8 on a 1-10 scale... .most reasonable people would give it a 3 or 4.

So... .there is an intellectual understanding of that which i had to understand and see "play out" several times as I "dealt with my emotional understanding"

Much easier to intellectually "get something" than it is to see danger and have a "proper" emotional response.  Frankly my emotional response may never be "normal" again... .whatever normal is.

So... .when I'm having an emotional response... .if I haven't already realized it's due to something I see as dangerous... .I try to realize what is "setting off my emotions" and then be deliberate about addressing them.

OK... so I'm a pilot.  I see emotions as like a flashing warning or caution indicator on my airplane.

When the "hyd low" light comes on, I know I need to take a look at the hydraulic system... .something is not performing properly in there.

When my "fear" light comes on... .it means I'm fearful... .so... .I need to do further investigation...

Anyway... .it is what it is.  I have that experience and background... .it's up to me to sort through it.

FF
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2018, 10:42:38 AM »

  Hi Harri,

           Glad to see you on line this morning. I'll wait for your input on the questions. Just wanted to get back with you right now about the word deserve. Yes I believe we are all born inocent and deserve peace. Not so funny thing happens though... .we have people responsible for taking care of us until we get old enough to that for ourselves. Some of these people not good people. Some of these people are monsters who inflict great suffering and pain. They warp the psyche of the little people they are resopsible for. Hence the "built in" word deserve. My word was "special". As you can atest, sometimes thesewords never go away.
          Another word used was choice. I believe as we grow and learn we choose for ourselves what path we want to follow. A different choice and I too could have been a child abuser like my paernts. I chose 15 years of therapy. Trust me there was NO PEACE during those years. It was something hard fought for. While I can say my out look on life is soo much better, healthier; it does not mean that all those horrible scripts have been erased. They are still there in the back of my brain. And yes like you I on occassion hear them.
          It pains me to know that you did find even relief in your parents deaths. I can view you as being the positive outcome. They are gone and you are still here asking questions about how to better yourself and find peace. Even in searching you are a work in progress.
         How did I get to where I'm comfortable and content, I repeat 15 years of therapy. Besides I'm one stuborn person! There was no way I was going let them beat me... .Love wins all Harri. This is not the forum to share what I lived through, just let me say that their evilness will die with them and when it does the world will be far better off. Strength and widom to you Harri as you continue to search.
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 11:54:07 AM »

I think this is a very interesting thread.  I started seeing a therapist about 6 months ago, when things with BPD sister and the rest of my life, were spiraling.  I felt out of control, exhausted, etc.  Seeing the therapist has helped me a lot, not just in regard to BPD sister, but in helping me make sense of my own emotions.  My childhood was OK on the surface, but also a bit of a disaster.  It started out with sexual abuse from a neighbor, followed by a total loss house fire and, of course, the fun cycle of abuse that comes with having a parent with mental illness.  I've recently started to wonder if my dad also has/had BPD.  He raged all the time when we were growing up, it was terrifying and it was NOT OK. 

Through all of this, I have realized a few positive things. 

1. As the oldest, I wanted to protect my sisters (and even my mom) from my dad's rage.  I became a bit of a perfectionist as a result.  I've always been extremely responsible.  I never did anything out of line as a kid.  I kept the house clean, came home on time, got straight A's, etc.  The result of all that is that I learned to be adaptable and I'm still very responsible.  Now, being a business owner is a natural fit for the skills I have.  I have 17 employees and I take a lot of pride in doing well for them.  I have a lot of responsibility on my plate, but I'm an adult now and I can handle it. 

2. I know what not to do when raising children.  My daughter is never going to experience the fear that comes along with a raging parent.  I'm 100% committed to making sure she feels safe, loved and secure (things I never really felt growing up).  I'm going to make sure she knows from a young age that other peoples' emotions are not her responsibility and she's especially not responsible for the feelings of grown adults that should be capable of handling their own problems. 

3. I don't know if it's just my personality or because of my experiences, but I like to help people and I do.  I go out of my way for others.  I'm still working on setting boundaries so I don't feel taken advantage of, but generally, I feel good about it.  Boundaries have helped a ton in that department.

4. I've recently learned about setting boundaries and I think life is much better as a result.  I hope I can help others learn to set boundaries that will improve their lives.  I know I'm responsible for my own happiness and I can't let another person be responsible for my feelings.  Likewise I'm not responsible for theirs.

I guess, ultimately, I feel like my past may have made me who I am to some degree, but it doesn't define me.  I know I'm not the horrible person my dad and BPD sister have told me I am.  I'm becoming more secure in that all the time.  It's taken a lot of reading, reflection and time to get to that place.  I can do whatever I want with my life and I can get even more done when I'm not letting BPD sister/dad pull me down.  I've dealt with a lot of abuse from a lot of different sources and I feel like I'm still coming out on top.  So, screw them.  I've decided to feel empowered, I guess. 
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 03:45:15 PM »

Excerpt
I feel like I owe the world more for my very existence.



You owe the world nothing my dear. The world owes you. Big time.  

I think I do understand where you are coming from when you are asking yourself about purpose and all that. But isn’t this thing that we all look for, ‘our purpose’ a little overrated sometimes ? I don’t know.

Why does there have to be a purpose ? Who said that ? And why are we comparing ? Is my purpose good enough ? Why can’t I have a purpose as noble as this or this person ?

I don’t know. Some time ago I went to this meetup. The organizer asked us to introduce ourselves and tell us our purpose in life. I thought it was a bit funny, we didn’t know each other and it seemed like he was just very eager to tell the group his purpose (and yes he did and he went on about it all night). So we all told each other our purpose. When it was my turn, I told everyone that I have a daughter and that my main purpose was seeing her happy. So the group leader literally told me, in front of everyone else, ‘I don’t think this is a good idea to have this as a purpose. What will be your purpose when your daughter moves out then ? You should redefine your purpose’. I was not sure what exactly he was aiming at, maybe he meant that I should have a purpose for myself, you know. Not be this pathetic mom, who only lives for her child and not for her own. Thing is, I am not a pathetic mom, I just am happy when I see that my child is happy, that’s all. And I didn’t like what he did. He should not define what  purpose is justified, and what purpose is not. Mind you, his purpose was ‘teaching people how to play’. Not sure exactly what he meant, and the whole night was him showing off what a great life he had, without participation of the group members. So, just to say … do we need a purpose ? And also does this purpose need to stay the same, year in year out ?   Maybe next year I will have a different purpose then the one I’m having now ?

And is everyone’s main purpose not just to be happy ? whatever that may mean ?


Excerpt
Cynical thought:  we can talk all we want about the benefits and positives we have given our experiences but who is to say we would not have had those qualities anyway?  Not to rain on anyones parade but... .what if there is no positive or meaning?  No purpose beyond just being?  Is that enough?  Can it be enough?


I am not sure if I believe there is a purpose, or if I believe there is none. But let’s say there is none … why would this be cynical ? Or maybe it’s something religious, I don’t know ? If I remember correctly, you are religious ? – I am not. But I do not regard myself as cynical at all. And I can live with the idea that there is no purpose. In my good moments, I think as love as the ultimate purpose. In this way, we all have the same purpose.
Which makes it easier Harri, no need to go look for a purpose or meaning anymore, love is the ultimate one (and I don’t mean merely romantic love)  :-P

In my good moments I tend to think that yes, it served me in some (sick ?) way, my FOO. It made me who I am. In my lesser moments, I know that I could have been just as happy and a lot happier without all that sh… I think living with my FOO brought me compassion. You know, empathy. I know the same is the case for you. But well, do we really need empathy in a large dose ? I think people who are gifted with a lower dose can be a lot happier LOL



Excerpt
You're special Harri, so what applies to others does not apply to you.


No, you are not special. You are like the rest of us. Like everyone else. I know where your feeling comes from, because I used to feel like that too. But the truth is, no one is special. We are all the same. There are no exceptions.



Excerpt
Is it possible to shed those ingrained beliefs?


Yes, I think so. I am not sure what did the trick for me. I have thought about it before, because there was a conversation in another thread about this.

I think for me what helped was meditating. This has made me feel more, hmm, how to say, not only connected with everyone and everything, but just, it has made me feel like I *was* them and they were me. No idea if that makes sense. This will sound very strange but sometimes I feel like I have the same soul as let’s say, a bird, or a stone, or even the sand in the desert.

And yes I am still functioning quite well, thank you   Smiling (click to insert in post)

So, this means, if I *am* them, why  should I ask more of myself, than I ask of them ? Also this last one, asking things of people, I have noticed that I have become less strict on people then I was before. I forgive easier.  I think this has made me easier on myself, too …

Mind you, all of this has not been an active conscious process. It’s more me reflecting, looking backwards trying to see how did I change that horrible view I had about myself.


Excerpt
Peace.  :)oes anyone simply deserve peace or is it something one has to fight and scratch for?


Of course we all deserve it, and that’s even a non question if you ask me. Because we all have it already, without knowing. We all think it’s something outside ourselves, while really it’s not. If we can quiet our mind enough, we can feel it.

Ever thought about picking up meditation ?

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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2018, 02:32:16 PM »

O and Harri,

I am not saying I think that f.e. being there for people is or should be your purpose in life.
But for me personally, you have made a difference in my life.

When I'm really low, and I don't know who to talk to, because no one would understand me, I come to these boards. And I always end up feeling better and less alone. And you are always there to comfort me. Yes, you offer sound advice. And you are willing and patient enough to analyze along with me. But on top of that, I can always feel this great empathy in your posts.
I am incredibly grateful for that.

People like you just make this world a little brighter.

Just so you know.
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2018, 12:26:47 PM »

Hi Harri, I've been dealing with a mentally ill Mom with BPD all my life. One of the main things I try to have is empathy. I realize I'm not the only one struggling, I see my Mom with her low self-worth, aggression, hate, and loneliness and I wonder where this comes from? Her bad childhood or was she just born with it? Looking at it from her side, helps me deal with her.  I realize she isn't going to change. Through this empathy, I've also mourned - the loss of a Mom I never had or will have.         I think our purpose from these awful situations, is to learn and grow just like you are doing.  We are valued human beings!         
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2018, 07:57:33 AM »

Hi Harri

You used the word Deserve a few posts ago. I remember hearing that word from a few people: "Wools, you deserve to get [whatever]." I also recall the absolute shock registering within my soul. 

"Me? Desrve anything?" I'd ask myself. The inner dialog continued. "I deserve NOTHING. I don't deserve to be treated better, don't deserve a nicer car, nicer house... .Deserve doesn't apply to me at all."

So I get this.
Excerpt
Is it possible to shed those ingrained beliefs?  I can see and accept the positives in me now.  It took a lot of hard work through triggers, anger, denial, self-flaggelation to get there.  I can own that.  But deep down those beliefs still nag at me and try to keep me down, whispering 'You're special Harri, so what applies to others does not apply to you.  You get a different set of rules".   

I also believe that the rules which others follow and I believe apply only to them, those clearly do not apply to me. I often live by a different set of standards. It's okay for me to say that they deserve something, but I don't. They shouldn't be treated with disrespect EVER, but it's okay for me to be treated that way. These have been my deepest heart beliefs. Why? Because I do not see myself as having worth and value equal to that of anyone else. I am not equal to them. I am always thinking of myself as different, unworthy, undeserving. 

No matter how many friends or my T argue with me to the opposite, it has come so quietly and gradually to my deepest places that I have value and I am worth being valued. This has begun to shift those beliefs. I keep hearing it week after week in T from the gentle words of my T. I keep hearing it from the Shepeherd of my soul, and finally the shafts of sunlight are beginning to penetrate to the place where I've said I am worthless (for sure I heard it enough times while growing up, verbally and emotionally, and physically).

Yes, it is possible, to shed these beliefs. They are chains that bind us. Chains can be broken.

 
Wools
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2018, 01:37:05 PM »

The best part of having to endure so much emotional pain, is we can get to a place of peace and tremendous compassion for others, because we have been through so much. It always brings me joy to help a person in pain because I know how much it means to me when someone reaches out to me and shows that they care.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2018, 01:46:06 PM »

hi Harri,
What stands out to me in your prompt for this discussion was value. This has been a word on my mind since starting posts here and discussions with you and others. But what is the internal instead of external value, the importance, weight of the "why". I don't from my own experience understand being "special" in terms of deserving abuse given. My own experience was more of a why am I "special" in the way that my uBPD father didn't abuse me in the same more visible way that he abused my siblings and mother. The "why" when I was sure I deserved it more then them, because I wasn't any better then them and I am not. There isn't always a rhyme or reason, sometimes it just seems random, valueless, purposeless. One thing that sticks with me through these struggles having researched the scientific genetic side of mental illness and been raised in the religious side of "generational curses". But there is value in us. We have the power to change our genetic structure just enough, to change our thoughts, to break our "curses.

Maybe our value isn't some grandiose here and now thing, but the fact that maybe, just maybe we have the ability to break the cycle of abuse and educate ourselves enough so that we don't pass along the curse. If we do then we educated ourselves on how to manage these illnesses and how to help our next generation. Okay I went a little broad scope, back on topic of the here and now.

Peace is something that is elusive when we are haunted. For me sometimes peace is just something that comes with a hard workout, when your too sore and tired to even contemplate what peace or value is. But sometimes I don't feel like I deserve peace. It is hard to find something that you desire but deep down think your undeserving. Because of this, I don't even work out often anymore. I don't hike very often, I don't do things that are good for me and will bring me that short term "peace". Because I don't deserve to be happy and help myself. I think before peace is found sometimes it takes a personal battle, to feel like I/you can be deserving of peace. How battle is not unique or special, but it is personal every person will fight it differently.

Now more personally to the value I have found in my circumstances. I gained a ton of stubbornness, is being this stubborn healthy? Maybe, maybe not but hey, I accept it as an asset. I learned that I value other people, especially other people struggling with mental illness, I learned that before I learned I had to value myself though. I learned I value kind words, because I first learned that words can hurt and they do, my childhood songs saying otherwise were a lie. One of the things I am struggling with now is learning to value the parts of me that are my uBPD father. Because genetically, by blood and by the way I was raised I have a lot of what makes him "him" in my own personality. The same goes for my mother who stays with him and continues to be abused, she is part of me and I am learning how to value that. Because I won't  find real peace unless I accept and "love myself unconditionally"  for who I am and the fact that they are a part of who I am. This is a process that will take me a lifetime.

I hope you find something in my ramblings and spewed thoughts that will give you some strength to keep trying and fighting for yourself.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 11:28:39 PM »

Hi everyone.  I've been busy thinking and trying to absorb everything said here.  Thanks to you all I am making progress.  And thank you for your wonderful posts!  It is good to see where other people are and to be questioned and challenged.  It is not always easy to see when our own thinking is off so I appreciate it.  I am able to see how I still have a double standard for myself and can see how the belief that I am special is involved in this thing I am trying to understand.  I get frustrated though and then have to spend time talking myself to a place of acceptance.  It is what it is... .dammit.

Formflier, way back when you asked debt to who?  Who do I owe? I don't know.  Is this feeling from guilt?  I can trace this to a feeling that I am responsible for something... .some elusive thing I am not sure even exists.  I guess I need to let that one go right?  I mean I don't even know who I owe.  It may be tied to some religious abuse/doctrine twisted by my mother and passed on to me.  I don't have a firm idea of the whole God business any more but I do know he exists and I know I can't possibly give him anything... .except to just Be.  heh.  Bluek9 you asked why I can't just be.  I tell people all the time to just Be.  Not only that, but i mean it and I know what it means for them and how valuable they are.  So why can't I do the same for me?  I get the feeling I am simply holding onto this feeling that I have a debt to pay to keep myself in the same place where I don't have to change and work.  It is easier to stay stuck in confusion and self-doubt.  Grrrr... .

Here is a bit of resentment and whining.  I am tired of fighting.  Life is not supposed to be this hard.  I don't like the hand that I was dealt and I want a new set of cards.  Unfortunately there are no do-overs so i have to do this right. 

And that there gets to the heart of my struggle.  Do this right.  This desperate urge to get this done and over with.  If I can't do it right I don't want to do it?  maybe.  Or maybe it is just me having a hissy fit because I'm not getting what i want. 

Harri,

    Just read your post. I have a few questions for you. Why isn't it okay to just be? You are who you are, isn't that enough? Why do you think-feel there has to be some great accomplishment? In my spirituality you are, there for you have value. You asked "no purpose beyond just being" Maybe you are answering your question. Just being is enough. Whether you add to or take from this life is not the point. We all do that in varying stages, give and take. I think the merrit or worth you attach to what to you do comes from yourself and how you feel about what you are doing. I just don't feek that we gain worth or impotance by what we do. Everyone has worth Harri, even you.
I like this.  It makes 'it' doable.  Is that a good enough reason to incorporate that into my value system?  I hear a voice in my head saying you can't just cherry pick what you like and discard what you don't like.  And there I go torturing myself again.

So just Being is enough.  I am going to have to sit with that some more.  Thank you for sharing part of your story with me though i am so sorry for what you experienced.  15 years in T?  It sounds like you are doing so well and I am pleased for you.  It also sounds like the hard work and pushing through was worth it.  Good to know.  Thanks again.

What I have learned from growing up in a very dysfunctional family with a BPD mother, is that I have to be the best person I can be, so I can continue to attract the best people into my life... .My message is: We have to be our own best friend to be able to give and receive love, and heal from hurt and betrayal.
Thank you Zachira.  I think i am getting better at being a friend to myself or at least self-care.  I quoted this because I want to make sure I remember.  I am finally getting a better understanding of what self-care is and how to love me, or at least what it should look like. 

YouHadMeAtHello, I love the determination and strength in your post.  Screw them!  heh  damn straight.  You certainly have taken your experiences and made them into positives that work.  Thanks for sharing that.

Fie  Hello my friend.  Thank you.  I have done meditation before.  I have a hard time with the quiet sitting meditation so I used to do walking meditation which i can't do anymore.  I can try the sitting kind again.  It can't hurt that's for sure.  My T keeps telling me I spend too much time in my head and wants me to get out and stop thinking all the time especially about what is wrong with me and trying to fix it.    Thanks for saying I have made a difference in your life.  I can say the same about you you know.  I do want to mean something and make a difference.  By just being me?  Hoo boy.  Deep breath.

Okay, I have to stop this post here but I am not finished.  Just too tired to focus.  so If I haven't addressed everything yet, i will , hopefully tomorrow.

Thank you everyone!
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« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2018, 02:05:33 PM »

Hey Harri 

Excerpt
I mean I don't even know who I owe.

Of course you don't because you don't owe anyone. I do however perfectly know what you mean ... .  You probably feel you owe it to life itself, no ? I mean, this was how it was for me.

You are an analytical person. I think a lot of children of BPD are. We were taught to always overthink our actions and responses, to please others. And to not feel too much - or not feel at all.

Feeling that you owe someone, or not feeling worthy, is something that I think (at least for me) cannot be solved, not fundamentally, by thinking. Thinking got us into all this. (And sometimes we even do understand something with our brain. Just our feeling doesn't follow.)
 I used to think this was hocus pocus but in therapy I have seen that (through regression) my unresolved feelings came up and were put where they belong : in the past. That is something I could not have done by reasoning everything through. Also body work has done quite something for me, as well as meditation. Anything but thinking, really.

I don't know if there is room in your therapy for feeling, experiencing, next to analyzing? Sorry if that's a stupid question !  I also realize that having suffered the abuse that you have, body work and such may be a whole different thing for you than for me. But just thinking aloud. Just tell me to shut up if you feel like it  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2018, 03:47:06 PM »

From Penny123:
Excerpt
I think our purpose from these awful situations, is to learn and grow just like you are doing.  We are valued human beings!
This seems to be the consensus.  Thank you for reinforcing it.  

I am filled with wonder at the thought that *I* can just Be.  *I* am enough.  *I* have value.  So telling myself this is all a lie or a lingering smoke screen from being special to keep me down might work.  Heh.  I get to tell myself to shut it!  I've got this.  <deep breath>  I feel panic at the thought of letting this all go.  Shredding and discarding the  pieces of my cloak of self-defeat.  

Wools, sometimes I swear I am following you as you work your way through all this.  You have helped me break down some crates and place more umbrellas on my beach!  Just knowing I am not alone in these self-limiting and self-harming beliefs.  I assume that some sunlight is breaking through my dirty crates that contain more of the filth of my past otherwise I would not be questioning and poking at this stuff, and doing so over and over for what seems like forever.  

Hey wools?  You have value and you deserve good things.     Smiling (click to insert in post)  

Zachira wrote:
Excerpt
The best part of having to endure so much emotional pain, is we can get to a place of peace and tremendous compassion for others, because we have been through so much. It always brings me joy to help a person in pain because I know how much it means to me when someone reaches out to me and shows that they care.
When I worked I was in the healthcare field and I loved helping people.  Then I got sick and I knew first hand just how hard it is when you don't feel well, are in pain, hearing scary stuff and being pulled in a bunch of different directions and how good it felt when someone did even the tiniest thing to make the appointment a bit easier or even went out of their way to joke around with me.  Who knew awful treatments could be fun?  It really changed how I interacted with the people I dealt with.  I was already helping them but I recognized the relief and the gratitude first hand.  It really was wonderful to be able to pass that on.  I miss it.

Deirdre, I too was raised surrounded by the idea of generational curses.  My mom twisted religion and God all around and of course, my dad was the one whose family was cursed... .and I was just like him (according to her).  She would see my dead grandfather and his father come to life as demons out to kill her and I was right there with them according to her.  <sighs> The joys of delusions.  Too bad I was too young when this started to recognize this for what it was.  It was only last year that I heard the word paranoid delusions and schizophrenia in association with my mom.  What an eye opener.  Certainly explains her cringing away in fear and the gun she kept nearby.    I see so many parts of my mother and father in me.  Even the way I sit in my car at a red-light never mind shared behaviors.  My mother, myself.  My father, myself.  There is no denying that.  Then I remember something religious that my mother did not twist and that is that we are not responsible for the sins of our fathers.  Sort of negates the whole idea of generational curses bless her heart  .  I was once told by a priest that I would be the one in our family to break the curse.  Go figure.

BTW, I think you have a great deal of insight and not just that but the ability to work through all this stuff in your family.  I am so glad you joined with us here so we can hear your voice.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Peace is something that is elusive when we are haunted.
So trueDeirdre To everyone, here's to us working through our past and working towards peace.  And thanks to those of you who are here showing me the way.  

BTW Deirdre, being stubborn is not healthy at least according to my T so I changed it to being determined.  :)etermined was approved... .with a twinkle in her eye as she knew what I was up to!  Sometimes I am doggedly determined.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Fie, you are such a joy.  My therapy goes something like this:
Harri: But I want to understand it
T:  You need to feel it
Harri: I'm trying
T:  No you're blocking by trying to think it through
Harri:  I am?
T: yes
Harri: sh*t
<rinse and repeat>

There is lots of feeling work that goes on in my therapy.  I am back in a slump though.  Cutting back to 2x's per month mostly due to $ issues.  Right now I am getting questions answered.  Sometimes it is the same questions week after week and my T is patient with me.  After asking the questions, we work on feelings.  There is still a disconnect between my mind and my body and I still do not talk about the mother-daughter incest hardly at all.  It is always there though.  To me it seems to be the lesser issue.  It is all the brainwashing and mind games, the dang gun and hallucinations that told her I was the devil.  those caused me far more harm.  the incest seems, to me, secondary.  maybe I am avoiding.  everyone seems to put the sexual abuse stuff on a pedestal.   It annoys me.  

One big thing that is really holding me back is the reality of my situation.  I am sick and unable to work.  The chances of my ever being able to work are almost non-existent.  Chances are my limitations will increase.  No I don't know when but they will eventually and not just due to aging.  So my financial situation and my medical situation will not change no matter how much inner work I do.  Given those two things combined, my social activities are not likely to change.  What the hell is the point I ask.  

So I have begun to ask what is a good life.  For me, the answer for now is peace.  Peace in my heart.

So in my last T session I declared that my goal is to not leave this earth without having experienced true peace.  It works in all areas too.  I can't have peace if I don't change and I can't change without changing my  thoughts and beliefs and changing those will happen as I chance my actions.

Fie, I don't ever want to tell you to shut up no matter what.  I would rather give you a hug, say thank you, have some coffee with you and just Be.
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