Mr & Mrs Dragon72 go to counselling (Part 2)

[Dragon72]

Mod note: Part 1 located here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323536We went to the second couple's therapy session yesterday.
It was interesting.  It didn't go as well for me personally as the last time.  My wife managed to focus on the very few times when I have lost control of my tongue and retaliated with curse words and made it out like I am a constantly abusive husband yelling and swearing at her all the time.  I think she got that mud to stick even though it's far from the truth.

It was clear to me and the T that my wife really doesn't see herself as part of the problem.  Reluctantly my wife agreed, when prompted by the T, to the idea that she has 50% of the responsability for the marriage, she went on to show by what she was saying that she thought I was all to blame and she had nothing to answer to.

We made commitments for the week: We would communicate in a friendly way to each other and express ourselves more clearly and directly. Those were my ideas. And I would apoligize for the bad language and treat her with respect. She also promised to give me "time out" when I need it (ie. when the arguments get circular!) These were her ideas.  

I did apologize sincerely and meaningfully and I promised not to curse at her again. She gave me absolutely no reaction.
She has been monosyllabic and not friendly at all since the session.  I have been doing my very best to be not only respectful and friendly with her. I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to make conversation with her.  I really don't think she's really doing her side of the homework, to be honest.

One of the last things the T got us to do was to think hard about why we're in this relationship.  If we have such a low opinion of each other and how the other has treated us, then why are we still in the relationship and why are we in therapy?  
I know the clinical answer.  BPD & Codependency respectively.
She made a good point.  Is this what we want?

[formflier]

  My wife managed to focus on the very few times when I have lost control of my tongue and retaliated with curse words and made it out like I am a constantly abusive husband yelling and swearing at her all the time.

Don't "worry" about this... .it shows itself for what it is.

  I think she got that mud to stick even though it's far from the truth.

Let her have her truth... .you keep yours.  Respect each others truth.


Big picture stuff.

when is the meeting with school psychologist?

is the plan for weekly MC for a while?

Has your T talked about "relationship skills"?

FF




 

[Dragon72]

The meeting with the school psych has been postponed. It was supposed to be today, but I spoke to the school psych on Monday when I wasn't sure whether my wife was still living with me and we had only had one session with the MC T and it was uncertain what future that would have. We agreed to put it off "for a while" until things settled down a bit.

The plan is to meet the MC T weekly and I was relieved that my wife agreed to an appointment next Wednesday afternoon.

The T didn't talk about "relationship skills" explicitly yet but we did spend some time talking about how to be aware of our communication so that we can avoid unclear communication and move towards more clear communication.  However, since then, my wife has not made any effort to change the way she has communicated with me.

I am feeling very depressed today. Very blue and low in spirit.  It's Friday and I have to find a way of spending more than 48 hours in the presence of someone who seems to hate my guts.  I wish I could hit "pause" in my life so that I can breathe and rest emotionally.  Actually, come to think of it, I wish I could just hit "rewind" and change the movie.

[formflier]

The meeting with the school psych has been postponed. It was supposed to be today, but I spoke to the school psych on Monday when I wasn't sure whether my wife was still living with me and we had only had one session with the MC T and it was uncertain what future that would have. We agreed to put it off "for a while" until things settled down a bit.
 

I would set the appointment for next week... .before the MC session.  That way you have something concrete to discuss.

Frankly... .I think you have been played by BPD.  Did your wife know about the school psych meeting?  And now... .it's postponed.  Victory... .for BPD anyway.

I hope I'm wrong about that... .delay seems really bad to me.  What good can come of it?

FF

[Dragon72]

I don't think I have been played by BPD.

My wife was unaware of the meeting even before it was cancelled.  I went to see the school psych on Monday (the first day back after Spring Break) to inform her about our domestic situation as it was unclear at the time whether or not my wife and son were living with me. I cancelled it because I wanted clarity about who was living where before going ahead with it.  Everything was pure chaos at the beginning of the week. The school psych hadn't even had a chance to inform us as a couple of the meeting and when she had pencilled it in. So my wife was unaware.

I have since asked the school psych to reschedule the meeting for a.s.a.p.

[formflier]

ASAP is good... .

[Dragon72]

I was dreading the weekend we just had.  I was sitting at my desk on Friday afternoon thinking that I'd rather just stay at work the entire weekend.

The weekend ended up having it's ups and downs. My wife was monosyllabic, but at least her tone wasn't hostile.  I had to go to work for a few hours on Saturday, so that got me some breathing space.  I went for a run on both days which was great. I cooked some really tasty food.  But a lot of it was spent trying to find things to do.

I had a few issues with my son who, understandably, is beginning to act up. And also because I am trying to impose more boundaries on him.  He seems to be unable to eat a meal without taking an hour and a half to do so (with constant reminders to keep eating) and he keeps trying to get up and down from the table and leaves a terrible mess that a 2 year old, let alone a 4 year old, would be ashamed of. He has been outright defiant to me, shouting "No!" to my face and even started throwing things at me because I have been insisting on certain expectations of behavior. 

I have been trying to set consequences for his actions, like sending him to his room, no toys, no TV etc. But he just ends up treating it all like a big fun game and not seeing it as a punishment. Then when I start getting angry with him, my wife shows up, rescues him and rewards him with a treat or time in front of the TV.  She's just not giving me the support I need.  Every time I give my son a consequence ("If you do that then I'll... .", my wife ends up negating or sabotaging the consequence. She never disciplines him and that's part of the problem.

I'm feeling like I'm getting a double dose of zero respect.

A lot of my son's behavior seems to be designed to get my attention. However, this weekend I spent a lot of time doing stuff with my son - making the food, going to the market, letting him help me with housework, playing soccer, hide and seek, playing bingo etc.  Quite often while my wife is reading a magazine, painting her nails or watching TV.  When I was out of the house at work or running, she just puts him in front of the TV most of the time.

It's frustrating.

[formflier]

Shifting gears to parenting.

He wants your attention... .you are training him to act up to get that attention

The reminders to eat his food are "dysfunctional attention".  

Remind him once or twice... .then leave him to connect the dots.

Let him clean his mess (even if badly).

If he doesn't finish a meal... .put it in fridge... guess what shows up at next meal.

You can also add in some fun to turn him the right way.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01D1FSJXA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

However... .don't introduce something like that until after there is "some compliance" or he is "heading in the right way".

Basically... .you should be letting him figure out his own consequences... .vice "reminding" him of them.  He will... over time... .figure out that hours at the table suck... .and he would rather be playing.

FF

[GaGrl]

The eating/meal behavior is pretty common, and it's also easy to fix.

1)  Give the time of the meal as everyone sits down.  "We're going to eat now, and dinner is over at 7:00 PM so we can have our evening activities."

2)  Child messes around, gets up and down, doesn't finish.,

3)  7 PM arrives.  You announce, ":)inner is over.  Time to move to XYZ."  You cover dinner and put it in fridge. (Child may be OK with that.)

4)  Child want a snack.  You say, "You can finish your dinner that you did not eat."  Two possibilities here -- Tantrum (outwait the tantrum), or child eats at same place (still messy) and has more of dinner.

5)  Repeat for as many days as necessary for Child to figure out that there are no snacks if dinner is not finished in a proper timeframe.

My son was ADHD and had a terrible time focusing on eating (appetite was also affected by Ritalin).  I had to use this technique -- pediatrician approved.

[formflier]

 and it's also easy to fix.

 

Yep!

If you look at the "big picture" of these techniques... .there is no way for the child to "skip" dinner.  It will be eaten... at some point.  The child is the one figuring out how much pain and suffering they will go through... ."let them connect the dots"

Gagrl,

While focusing on the dinner aspect and that it was over at a certain time... .what did you say to the child when they would get up or "mess around" during dinner?  



Note:  In my idea and in my family I tended to leave a child at the table and the rest of the family went on to have evening activities.  I would usually make sure they were extra loud and fun.  Our child at the table gets to figure out if avoiding dinner (yet being stuck at the table) is a better deal than having fun with rest of the family.

further note:  Since Dragon's kid is an only child, I tend to thing Gagrls idea is better... .I had the ability to have other kids putting on a "show" of what the kid at the table was missing... .Dragon doesn't have that ability.

FF

[Enabler]

FF and Gagrl, not to undermine the excellent advice you have given regarding getting children to eat etc, I would like to add a little from my own experience here.

It would seem (similar to my experience) that W wants to do a spot of 'trauma reenactment' and slot herself into the position of rescuer every time you (perpetrator) try and discipline your son (victim)... .and from your description you do the merry dance around the triangle as is usually the case. It is imperative that you avoid placing yourself in a perpetrator position and as FF says, allow your son to join the dots. Calm kind tone, simple rules which you stick to, and avoid forcing your agenda, let your son (and W) learn that your agenda works and his (or your W's doesn't). You son will quickly (if he hasn't already) learn that he can get between you both and play one off against each other. Refuse to play.

I was astonished to learn that children don't see Mum and Dad as a unit, they actually see us as more individual than we think. They will respond to us in an individual manner and have mental lists of 'rules' for each of us. Assert your rules when you are on your own with your son when there is no one else to play the drama triangle games with, let him learn that your way = positive outcome. Assert them less aggressively when she is there with you, allow your son and wife to feel the consequences of 'their way'... .but don't be the one being the bad guy. Together time is not the time to train him of positive outcomes, it's for him/her to see results of negative outcomes. Tied to this, 4yr olds want to push rules to see if they move, eating regression is very standard as well as "no" and "I hate you". It's a childs way of asserting that they are not you, and is an IMPORTANT part of child development... .I am not you and you aren't me.   

[formflier]

This is another areas where school psychologist could be critical.

IN the sense that you can calmly have your value position be that you are following professional advice of pediatricians and child psychologist.

Let your wife work out her own value place... .don't save her from "being wrong"... but don't "persecute" her either... ."let her connect the dots"

FF

[Dragon72]

Thanks everyone for the great advice.

However I am still unsure of how to ensure that the non-cooperating party's choices don't work for them, when setting boundaries, especially if someone undermines my boundaries.

I'm not being clear.

For example, my son refuses to eat his meal. 
OK, I say, then you don't get to eat. I don't start a big fight about it.
Then my wife gives him snacks between meals. Because "he has to eat something".
It's worked out for him. Not only he gets to dictate whether or not he eats his lunch, he gets rewarded with cookies and chocolate.
And he's learned that what Daddy says doesn't matter.

[Enabler]

You have to play the hand you’re dealt with.

When W is out and it’s just you and him, your rules, but be consistent

When W is in, same rules but if she wants to run you over and overrule you, let her and she can pick up the pieces. Don’t fight against the drama but also don’t rescue her from the drama she creates. Stay ice cool non-judgemental but do not be hooked back in from a situation she has kicked you out of. Stay passive and neutral. Allow the chaos.

When W is on her own I am sure that she is having the same issues as you and dealing with them badly.

This takes time, there’s no easy fix, there is no foot stamping it must change. The kids diet may sufffer... .but it already is and old ways are not working to change that.

[formflier]

For example, my son refuses to eat his meal. 
OK, I say, then you don't get to eat. I don't start a big fight about it.
Then my wife gives him snacks between meals. Because "he has to eat something".
It's worked out for him. Not only he gets to dictate whether or not he eats his lunch, he gets rewarded with cookies and chocolate.
And he's learned that what Daddy says doesn't matter.

Express your displeasure and clarity with your wife that she is reinforcing bad behavior... .or perhaps let the pediatrician and school psychologist make this point.

Most likely best for you to let them make this point... .that way it's about you following a professionals advice... .not about you "winning" or "beating" your wife.

Even if your wife sabotages... .you do the right thing.

So... yes... .your situation sucks because you two are not "together" on most parenting decisions.

FF

[Dragon72]

We're going to the next T session this afternoon.  Appointment set with the school psych for tomorrow midday.

Yesterday I had a mountain of work to do and so I had to stay a little later than normal. Not much later. About 45 mins later than normal. I didn't think I would be that long, so I didn't notify my wife until just as I was leaving work to say I was on my way back.
When I got back, I said a cheery "Hi" as I came in through the door.  No response. So I said "Hi" again.
"Who were you talking to?", she said angrily.
"When?", I answered, genuinely confused.  I had briefly spoken to the security guy at the work parking lot, but apart from him, nobody.
"Who were you talking with at work to make you so late?"
"Nobody. I was at my desk doing admin."  And I left it at that.

I did well not to make it a fight and not to JADE (much), but, man, it's annoying when she communicates like that.
It makes me feel that I'm not trusted, and it makes me feel guilty for doing my job that puts food on our table, even though I've done nothing wrong.  I know it's just the BPD and her insecurities talking, but it's tough living with remarks like that.

[formflier]

I think you did great with that.

Perhaps in the future... .stay generally confused and ask...

"Oh... my... .what makes you think I was speaking with someone?"

or

"Would you like to know what I was doing at work?"

FF

[Enabler]

Or

"Tiffany, the in-house exotic dancer, we didn't talk so much as she was sitting on my knee whilst I counted all the money I'm hiding from you."

Maybe keep that for your head.

I would start assuming she is not deaf and therefore hears you the first time. If she ignores your first "Hi" move on, especially if the second "Hi" comes out in a more aggressive tone (Mine usually does) and she responds defensively. Let her have her fantasy about you humping your assistant over the classroom desk, that would certainly not be a strange husband response to their wife walking out on them. Leave some mysticism.

[formflier]

Yeah... .the "double tap" Hi and other stuff likely comes off as aggressive.

If you don't physically see her... .perhaps a "honey... .are you home?"  (stay friendly)

if she is there and obviously ignoring you...

Be gravely concerned... ."Babe... .you ok?  I didn't hear anything from you"

FF

[Dragon72]

We had our 3rd marriage counseling session yesterday and shortly after it started I brought up the "Who were you talking to?" comment my wife made when I came home the other day.
The T asked her to explain what she meant. 

My wife explained that she had heard a ringing in her ears and that meant that someone was speaking badly about her. And it must have been me.

Much of the rest of the session was spent with the T asking my wife about how she knows for sure what people are thinking and saying when she's not there.  My wife seems to be convinced that she has this "gift" whereby she "knows" when people are talking badly about her.  She also "knows" without the tiniest proof that I have been spying on her and hiding/stealing money and being unfaithful. 

The T backed me up again when it came up that my wife still sleeps with our son.

My wife did a perfect job of exposing her BPD traits and came off as having a very distorted view of reality.  I quite enjoyed watching a 3rd party see it, to be honest.

The T said that she was going to set a limit of 10 sessions, so there are 7 left.

I tried to make pleasant, light conversation with my wife on the way home. There wasn't even the slightest thaw in her manner towards me.

We meet the school psych in a couple of hours.  Should be interesting.

[formflier]

 

My wife explained that she had heard a ringing in her ears and that meant that someone was speaking badly about her. And it must have been me.

Much of the rest of the session was spent with the T asking my wife about how she knows for sure what people are thinking and saying when she's not there.  My wife seems to be convinced that she has this "gift" whereby she "knows" when people are talking badly about her.  She also "knows" without the tiniest proof that I have been spying on her and hiding/stealing money and being unfaithful. 

Classic... .

 

My wife did a perfect job of exposing her BPD traits and came off as having a very distorted view of reality.  I quite enjoyed watching a 3rd party see it, to be honest.

Totally understandable.  What did you learn from this?  How did watching this affect your view of your wife?  How does it affect your view of you and your role... perhaps split this up into your role in the past and your role going forward.

The T said that she was going to set a limit of 10 sessions, so there are 7 left.

Did she explain this?  Why 10... .?  Why not 13.75?

I tried to make pleasant, light conversation with my wife on the way home. There wasn't even the slightest thaw in her manner towards me.

I wouldn't look for any thaw just after these sessions.  I think you played it right... .light... non pushy.

We meet the school psych in a couple of hours.  Should be interesting.

Good luck.  Remember, stay succinct, describe what you observe... .ask for best professional recommendation.  Ask about the impact of continued co sleeping ?  Listen...

FF

[Dragon72]

The school psych was very good. Strongly put the case that our son needs to be in his own bed on his own at night.
But my wife just dug her heels in.  Her excuse is that the master bedroom (where I sleep alone in our kingsize bed) is too noisy with the traffic outside and that she needs her sleep.  I admit it is a little noisy, but I got used to it.  She said she's going nowhere until we move house. That could happen in July, a move to a quieter property, but it's not certain.  In any case, I wager she'll find some excuse to be in his bed in the new place too.

The psych also stressed that my wife needs to apply boundaries and clear structure to our son's life, as I have been attempting to do.  She asked my wife to support me in that.  My wife was full of "yes, yes"es, but you could clearly see that she is just going to revert to giving him what he wants, when he wants it.

So frustrating.

[formflier]

 
So... .move you son to your current bedroom and you and your wife stay in the bedroom she says is "quiet".

That solves her problem... .right?

What is next step with schools psychologist?

Did she give any other reasons why she needs to sleep with her son or have him sleep with her?

I suggest it's time to solve her problem and call her bluff.

FF

[Dragon72]

That solution was proposed, but the Mrs has an obstacle to every solution. She says that our son has trouble too sleeping, even in the "quiet" bedroom, and refuses to entertain the idea that you suggested "for his sake".

My wife says that our son "needs" her in the night as he wakes up demands attention.  She refused to accept the psych's and my argument that her continued presence in his bed is not helping in any way to reduce that "need".

We have a follow up meeting with the psych in early June.

[formflier]

That solution was proposed, but the Mrs has an obstacle to every solution. She says that our son has trouble too sleeping, even in the "quiet" bedroom, and refuses to entertain the idea that you suggested "for his sake".

My wife says that our son "needs" her in the night as he wakes up demands attention.  She refused to accept the psych's and my argument that her continued presence in his bed is not helping in any way to reduce that "need".

We have a follow up meeting with the psych in early June.

OK... .so... .your wife says the son "needs" her with no evidence.  In fact... pediatricians and psychologists say there is professional evidence and opinions to the contrary.  In fact... your wife is alone in her belief.

Your wife believes she "knows and hears" things... that only she can know and hear (what she said in MC).

You now see what you are up against... .and what it is likely you will have to force in order to change.

Perhaps towards the end of your MC 10 sessions... .that can be directly addressed.

It's really a function of you being ready for it... .than it is her coming around.

I suspect that once you are obviously going to "do something about it"... .that she will call your bluff... .which means you will call her bluff... .she will do something crazy... .and then she will fold.

Where have you seen that pattern?  (there is hope in this)

FF

[Dragon72]

I feel it's time for an update.

Since the last session, my wife has continued to be very cold towards me with communication at a bare minimum.  I haven't tried to force it, and I have only a couple of times tried to "chat", but I have tried to keep my tone warm and friendly.

On Friday the final year kids I teach had their final lessons of their career at high school.  I have taught them since they were 11 years old until now that they are 18, and most of them have been at this institution since they were in kindergarten, so it was a big day for them and me.  Every year, the outgoing generation of kids invite their teachers to a party to celebrate and I went.  It was a great party and a few tequilas were had, but nothing outrageous. 

I was in a good mood when I left the party at about 9pm and decided to walk home which was about a half hour walk away.  On the way home,  due to a combination of the darkness, a bit of tequila in my tummy, an uneven sidewalk and an unseen chain across it, I tripped and fell and smacked my head on the sidewalk.  I have a pretty big graze, a small cut and a pretty ugly black eye to show for it.  Thankfully nothing worse.

When I got home at about 9.30pm, my wife and son were already asleep in bed, and so I went to bed. Alone as usual.  The next morning, Saturday, my wife got up and went downstairs without saying good morning. I then went down, said good morning and told her that I had fallen and hit my head the night before.  She hardly even looked at me, then said "Of course! That's what happens when you're drunk!"  That's pretty much all she said to me since.

On Sunday, I had to go to a residential training course in another city, and I get back this afternoon, so I've hardly seen her since.  I called home on both nights I was away. She was cold and it seemed she couldn't wait to stop talking to me and pass the phone to our son.

I understand her reaction, fuelled by anger and fear and probably a sense of feeling abandoned, in that teachers' partners weren't invited to the party. Made worse by the fact that she is deep into a long devaluation stage.  But the fact that she can show no compassion, in spite of her anger, and that there is no room in her vision of me for any positive connection, is making me inch ever closer to the decision that I can't live with someone who splits like that.

She cancelled this week's session with the T. Her sister is away for the next 2 weeks and according to my wife, her sister is the only person who she can trust to look after our son for 3 hours on a Friday afternoon while we go to the T. 

[formflier]

I would ask you to consider going to T... .even without your wife.

I would suggest you find other child care that you are ok with.

In the end... .you may go alone. 

FF

[formflier]

Hey... .your kid goes to your school... right?

Can you reach out to your school and ask about extra care on Fridays?  I mean... your wife is already ok with going to school there... .extra care should be ok.

Even if the teacher or an aide is hired to to extra babysitting... even in your home.

This is normal adult stuff to solve... .solve it.  If she wants to assume an unreasonable position, like the sleep thing, don't save her from being unreasonable.

FF