Things you've been able to do since the breakup

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I think I've seen/posted threads like this before, but it feels like a good reminder.

What kind of things have you been able to do since your breakup? Things you've reclaimed? Fears you've gotten over? Physical/Emotional wounds you've healed?

For example, I'm drinking coffee right now. Sounds normal, right?

About 6 months before our split, right when things were just starting to slip downhill (but then recover quickly, as if she was testing the self-destruct water), I got horrible acid reflux. I've never had acid reflux. In fact, it wasn't really quite reflux - it was more just an intolerance to eating or drinking anything in the morning. It also came with my sense of smell becoming hypersensitive. In other words, my senses were on high alert (I now see why). It got so bad that I would throw up every morning after breakfast and stopped being able to drink coffee. It became yet another thing that was "wrong" with me and another reason why I was "not ok" and driving her nuts. The more she harped on it and was insensitive, the worse it got. Talk about salt on a wound.

I was just sitting here, almost a year from when these symptoms developed, 4 months from when she left me, sipping my coffee and writing about our latest contact last night on the detaching board. Then I had a laugh - I'm sitting here drinking my coffee. I still have some smell hypersensitivity but that's even fading a bit (with therapy and acknowledgment that I'm dealing with PTSD), and while I take something for the reflux, it's barely been an issue.

I've got plenty more to report but would love to hear some of the things you all have been able to do since your breakup, mundane or not. What are some of those weird progress markers in your life?

[lighthouse9]

I think I've seen/posted threads like this before, but it feels like a good reminder.

What kind of things have you been able to do since your breakup? Things you've reclaimed? Fears you've gotten over? Physical/Emotional wounds you've healed?

For example, I'm drinking coffee right now. Sounds normal, right?

About 6 months before our split, right when things were just starting to slip downhill (but then recover quickly, as if she was testing the self-destruct water), I got horrible acid reflux. I've never had acid reflux. In fact, it wasn't really quite reflux - it was more just an intolerance to eating or drinking anything in the morning. It also came with my sense of smell becoming hypersensitive. In other words, my senses were on high alert (I now see why). It got so bad that I would throw up every morning after breakfast and stopped being able to drink coffee. It became yet another thing that was "wrong" with me and another reason why I was "not ok" and driving her nuts. The more she harped on it and was insensitive, the worse it got. Talk about salt on a wound.

I was just sitting here, almost a year from when these symptoms developed, 4 months from when she left me, sipping my coffee and writing about our latest contact last night on the detaching board. Then I had a laugh - I'm sitting here drinking my coffee. I still have some smell hypersensitivity but that's even fading a bit (with therapy and acknowledgment that I'm dealing with PTSD), and while I take something for the reflux, it's barely been an issue.

I've got plenty more to report but would love to hear some of the things you all have been able to do since your breakup, mundane or not. What are some of those weird progress markers in your life?

[stixx44]

Ok—I’ll bite... .

With my newfound freedom... .

 able to use spray deodorant!  She initially didn’t want me to use any, but I couldn’t go along with that, so I compromised with roll-on.

I can eat anything I want and can use half and half in my coffee instead of getting a lecture on the benefits of goat’s milk.

I can eat a steak without getting “the look.”

I can talk to my friends on the phone openly instead of having to hide my conversations (jealous of anyone I spoke to.)

I can wear my hair the way I want... .shorter or longer.  (I would keep it shorter as she preferred that and of course, I wanted to please, please, please.)

I can wear anything I want without being told that it’s not “the style” (never cared about fashion myself).

I can be silly and self-deprecating in front of others... .she never liked that.

I could probably come up with many more, but this is off the top of my head.

Great topic!

[lighthouse9]

Stixx you made me hungry talking about that steak!

My STBXw started the relationship as a vegan and left it as a mostly paleo meat eater. I gained so much dang weight trying to keep up with the latest way to eat healthy/lose weight. Ironic, no?

Sounds like she had some large opinions - I'm glad to hear that you're free of them!

[Shedd]

I was able to meet my favorite actress who she was always jealous of! I have met her three times now in fact! I would never have been able to do that if I was still in a relationship with her. 

... .And I bought a house! Which I wouldn't have if we would have been living together!

So I'm very happy.

[MeandThee29]

I'm no longer walking on eggshells. When I make mistakes, I do what I need to do to fix it and move on. That's probably the greatest relief.

When I want to go visit someone or stay somewhere longer than planned, I let my young adults know, but I don't get the ninth degree about it and a lecture about how I need to stay home with him. I don't have to provide what happened and who I talked to.

My health is better. I actually weigh what I did in my 30's and take two walks a day with our dog, lift weights, and do yoga. I haven't been this healthy in years.

[lighthouse9]

Wow Shedd, those are both really amazing things and I'm so glad that you're happy! Did she not want to buy a house or was it just not something you thought would be possible with her?

Like Stixx, I've been able to eat differently and that's been nice. I don't think she ever would have stopped me or outright shamed me (ok, maybe a little - she did do this), but meal planning has been way more relaxed.

I also feel way less pressure to prove my productivity. I currently work from home and did work from home through most of our relationship, since we moved so often. There was a lot of resentment from her about how I managed my time and I felt guilty so often. I don't have that pressure now.

[lighthouse9]

I'm no longer walking on eggshells.

I feel like this sums it up for so many of us - and that's amazing about your freedom and your health.

I dropped weight immediately after our break up, and I was actually being way less cognizant of what I was eating. I think the stress was just really screwing me up physically.

I like what you said about making mistakes, too. I don't think I ever expect to be in a relationship where there aren't challenges and where I'm not the source of some of those challenges. But, I expect to be given the autonomy and trust to fix things - and to be told when something I'm unknowingly doing is making life hard for someone else. I'm not a mind reader, and to have things from our first months of dating thrown in my face years later was just unfair. Mistakes are normal. Writing someone off without giving them a chance to correct their mistakes is not.

[toomanydogs]

For example, I'm drinking coffee right now. Sounds normal, right?

About 6 months before our split, right when things were just starting to slip downhill (but then recover quickly, as if she was testing the self-destruct water), I got horrible acid reflux. I've never had acid reflux. In fact, it wasn't really quite reflux - it was more just an intolerance to eating or drinking anything in the morning.

Wow! I developed silent reflux with my STBX, and I got it under control when he was still with me. I worked really hard on it--elevated my bed, didn't eat after 7pm, etc., etc.

Then he left. Then I was completely cut off financially. And bingo that silent reflux (meaning I didn't have heartburn, but I'd developed an incapacitating cough) returned with a vengeance. I'm still dealing with fall-out stress.

But... .

To answer your question: First thing I can do that I couldn't do with him in my life is breathe. I can take these deep, deep belly breaths.

Next, I can write again and not about him and emotional despair. I tend to write funny, and that ability has returned.

I can unabashedly love my kids, my animals, baths--I can unabashedly love whatever and not worry that he's going to be jealous.

I can breathe. I can breathe. I can breathe.

TMD

[toomanydogs]

I can talk to my friends on the phone openly instead of having to hide my conversations (jealous of anyone I spoke to.)

YES! My STBX was that way. Jealous of: my kids, my animals, my friends (unless they were of a certain age and style that he found attractive), my work, my ability to shop, etc. etc. etc.

I can wear my hair the way I want... .shorter or longer.  (I would keep it shorter as she preferred that and of course, I wanted to please, please, please.)

He always wanted me to let my hair go gray. Not my style. But he'd get resentful that I didn't let it go natural.

He only liked certain colors on my toenails. Oh my god, I'm relieved he's gone.

I can be silly and self-deprecating in front of others... .she never liked that.

My STBX didn't like that kind of humor either. He liked slapstick and practical jokes that a 5-year-old would find funny. He once put a dead lizard in the refrigerator on top of my yogurt.

TMD

[MeandThee29]

I like what you said about making mistakes, too. I don't think I ever expect to be in a relationship where there aren't challenges and where I'm not the source of some of those challenges. But, I expect to be given the autonomy and trust to fix things - and to be told when something I'm unknowingly doing is making life hard for someone else. I'm not a mind reader, and to have things from our first months of dating thrown in my face years later was just unfair. Mistakes are normal. Writing someone off without giving them a chance to correct their mistakes is not.

Mine kept a running tally of my mistakes stretching back decades. Periodically when he was unhappy with me, he'd rattle off 8-10 of them. Sometimes he'd harshly criticize me for something, and then later reverse his stance, denying that he ever did that.

Some months back when we had to discuss some financial issues he brought up something during engagement that I had completely forgotten about that he had been holding onto. It was something we just had to work out, and ultimately did. But he resented that it was ever even an issue and used it to show how I had always been a disappointment to him.

For a long time I couldn't figure out why he wanted me around if he held me in such contempt. Then I realized that he relished the contempt and looked for more failures and ways to point them out.

Yes, freedom to feel that I have worth and something to contribute to others. It's a good thing.

[Seenowayout]

I can work late and grow my business

I can reconnect with friends

I can have female friends

I can spend time with my family

I can say whatever I want without fear of some kind of freak out.

I do and say what I want and people love me and respect me.  No one, and I mean no one, has put me down or made me feel bad in any way since the break up one year ago.  She used to make me feel like I was a bad person all the time. 

I'm free.

[once removed]

i worked hard (possibly even too hard in some ways) to maintain my independence in my relationship. to not give into demands. my attitude was always that its not a lovers place to ask me to cut someone out of my life, not anyone.

she only actually did that once. but i let a lot of friendships go by the wayside because the thought of pursuing them gave me anxiety over my exs reaction. i rationalized that it wasnt the right time, and id do it later.

when the relationship ended, it seemed to me repairing those friendships was high on the list of priorities. so i did. the lingering anxiety was pretty powerful. i ruminated a great deal over what she might do.

in most cases, i was too late, in a couple of cases i came off too strong, but hey, i took those steps, i licked my wounds, and eventually, i made new friends.

i flirted a lot. same thing, lot of anxiety. sometimes it was mutual, but i was rejected a lot, and my next two relationship choices were pretty questionable.

i was no longer attached at the hip, so i could enjoy my me time, and i reveled in that.

if i have any advice to offer, work hard on rebuilding your life, make it a project, but dont go crazy looking for soothing or validation.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Great topic! After twenty years of hell... .now I am free.

Now... .

I can spend my money on whatever I want and when I want without having to ask permission or to justify it even though it is my money.

I can come and go as I please without being interrogated.

I can write again. I love to write.

I can play on my computer or on my phone without being interrogated or berated about it.

I can have a few drinks if I want to without being shamed for it.

I can speak my mind without fear of ridicule.

I can speak freely on the phone with my family, friends, and co-workers without anyone eavesdropping on me and then interrogating me about the conversations.

I can heal without fear of being re-traumatized by him.

I can let the housework lapse without being shamed for it.

I can cook food that I can actually eat that doesn't make me sick.

I no longer worry about mind games.

I can relax at home. Home is now safe. No more walking on eggshells. No more anxiety about what hell awaits me at home today. My home is now an actual home.

I can breathe.

I can be myself.

I can just "be".

[Shedd]

Wow Shedd, those are both really amazing things and I'm so glad that you're happy! Did she not want to buy a house or was it just not something you thought would be possible with her?

We were going to live together, but we would have been living in an apartment so I never would of had the money to buy a house!

Also no more petty arguments. :D

They made you eat differently? Wow... .

[Lalathegreat]

Oh my goodness, ALL THE THINGS! It has been 9 months since my relationship ended. Initially I lived very much how I had - although I immediately felt relief at not walking on eggshells. Then I gradually reconnected with my friends, began running again in earnest, and the past few months I have enjoyed a newfound peace that I was so afraid I’d never find again.

I wear what I want to wear (he was constantly accusing me of being too sexy, or too frumpy - I couldn’t win) eat what I want to eat (he had a really specific diet and was extremely judgemental if I strayed from it) drink my coffee without a second thought (he HATED my coffee habit), and watch what I want to watch.

I can BREATHE! It’s just so much better. But that’s not to say it hasn’t been hard at times too. But I have definitely learned to appreciate all the little things that I get to now take in stride.

Lala

[Seenowayout]

It's funny how "breathe" comes up so often.  Can't live without breathing, but we all had trouble breathing not knowing when the rage monster would show up.  and "peace" and "be" and "live" are words that come up consistently.  Very zen or meditative.  Very cool.   But we all had such trouble breaking free and were prisoners and in love with our chains.  So weird.  I haven't figured that part out yet.  I wonder if we have something in common ourselves as nons, that made us susceptible to this.

[lighthouse9]

Seenowayout - I was just doing the same thing as you, looking at some of the trends in this post. I see the not walking on eggshells bit for sure. I also see everything you said about "breathing" and the eating stuff makes me feel less alone.

I remember learning about how not to JADE on the bettering board and really wondered where that urge to JADE came from. In my FOO, JADE was pretty much how we talked - and while it wasn't always a good thing, I can see places where it makes a ton of sense to justify your position or explain something. With my STBXw, I would justify or explain and she would say "that makes sense" and might superficially change something, but it would always become something to resent about me.

In looking through these posts, I see us talking about not having to justify or explain ourselves for really mundane stuff, like what we want to eat, who we want to hang out with, how we spend our time, etc etc. Certainly, anyone getting out of a relationship feels some of that freedom. But, I feel like (for me at least) it is amplified after leaving a relationship with someone w/BPD.

I wonder if anyone else feels their JADE-ometer exiting the red zone?

And to your question, about what we might have in common - I think that's another great thread to continue in here.

I'm a rational minded fixer. If you say "this is how I need to eat to feel my best" for example, I will say "cool, yeah I can see how that would be good for me, too, and I want you to feel your best." Reasonable, no? But like Lala was saying - straying from that would come with shame or judgement. If you say "I'm no longer attracted to you," I think, "Ok, yeah, I have put on a few pounds and am getting older and let my work priorities take over my health priorities, I could use to take care of myself a bit better." I might also say, "You're totally right that we haven't been connecting as deeply and I'd love to start being more intentional about going on dates and rekindling our love."

Being a rational minded fixer meant that I could always see truth in her statements, would always take her seriously, and would always adjust my behavior to get us to a better outcome. What I lacked (at the time, thought it has definitely come back) is a critical lens from which to hear her from - or even a BPD lens. Instead of "cleaning up my diet" I could have seen how much she was struggling with a hidden eating disorder. Instead of trying to be more attractive or connect more, I could have probed more about the disconnect and considered her own projection in that statement. Ultimately though, you can't fix BPD as a non. You can adjust, you can adapt, you can support - but without self-awareness and work from the person who is struggling, it's like trying to catch a ghost (in my experience).

[toomanydogs]

It's funny how "breathe" comes up so often.  Can't live without breathing, but we all had trouble breathing not knowing when the rage monster would show up.  and "peace" and "be" and "live" are words that come up consistently.  Very zen or meditative.  Very cool.   But we all had such trouble breaking free and were prisoners and in love with our chains.  So weird.  I haven't figured that part out yet.  I wonder if we have something in common ourselves as nons, that made us susceptible to this.

I noticed "breathe" as a common thread, as well.

For me, I can now do that deep belly breathing that relaxes me. When he first left, if I did deep belly breathing, I'd end up sobbing--that from the gut sobbing. Makes me wonder if I was fighting despair the entire time I was with him. I don't know.

I still miss him. Isn't that odd? I don't miss that sick part, that shaming, hostile part, but I miss him holding my hand, stroking my hair. And, God help me, I miss taking care of him. That said... .

Breathing outweighs the missing. Besides, I can't have the good part of him without the truly horrid part.

Food was also odd with my STBX; he didn't shame me for what I ate, but we never ate together. Even if we went out for dinner, he'd gobble his appetizer (usually 2 appetizers) and then want to leave. And When I wouldn't leave, he'd wait for me in the car.

Note to FIL, who wrote me when the marriage was breaking up that he was optimistic that if I so chose, I could "fix" the marriage. How?

My STBX was obsessed with money. He'd often call me "poor" in a derogatory way, implying that I was stupid, low-class. He hated it when I would say, "I'm gonna go to the store."

His response: "You're going to the store, so why are you adding 'gonna' and it should be going to."

After a while, I'd intentionally talk like that about everything. What is ironic, is I spent 15 years teaching college students how to write. I know how to switch register. I know grammar. Punctuation. It was just odd.

It so helps to write all this out because I do sometimes miss him; it's like an ache in my heart, and I can almost feel his  hand on the back of my neck.

The best I can say is that my STBX is very ill. I still have compassion because he's alienated his FOO. To the best of my knowledge, his father is the only one who will have anything to do with him, and that may have changed as the result of STBX filing divorce.

It's sad, but I'm out of the relationship. I can breathe. And, Seenowayout, for me, I know there were 3 huge reasons I got involved with my STBX and put so much energy into him:

1) I was brought up in an alcoholic, chaotic family, and I remember consciously thinking when I was about 8 years old that if the adults would just get out of my way, I could run the family much much better than they could. What I was responding to was my father, grandfather, and uncles' penchant for getting drunk on Sundays, then getting into screaming fights, while my mom, grandma, and aunts hid in the kitchen crying. I really believed I could do better, then spent a huge portion of my life trying to "fix" alcoholics and other addicts.

2) My STBX came into my life as my two children were in their early 20s, establishing their own adult lives. I am a caretaker (working on taking care of animals only), and their moving on left a huge gap in my soul--a gap I longed to fill. And then STBX came along.

3) I'd been celibate for over 10 years when my STBX entered my life. He made sex fun and satisfying. Initially. Later? Not at all. He'd had a porn addiction that I found out about later--porn that was incredibly degrading.

Gosh, I could go on and on.

But I can breathe!

I can sit in bed and write for 30 minutes without worrying my STBX is going to barge into the room, throw himself diagonally across the bed, as he's chewing tobacco and dripping tobacco-laced saliva on the sheets.

Oh my god, I am truly blessed to be free of him.

Happy Friday, everyone!
TMD

[blooming]

I can hang out with the friends he hated without feeling guilty about it or scared for what he would say when he found out

I can do the things I like doing without being afraid that he wouldn't like it or would say something hurtful about it

I can wear the clothes he didn't like and I did

I can listen to the music he hated without getting comments about it

I can live my life more freely

I'm not constantly checking my phone hoping he messaged me

I can go to my rowing association without him giving me a lecture about how much he hates that place (he was a member too but then painted it black, which is weird, because he knows all his friends from there) or giving me the silent treatment because I was spending time there

I don't have to constantly let him walk over me anymore because I'd rather keep the peace then come up for myself when he would say something mean

He has made me so extremely insecure with all his words and opinions, but at least he can't say any more of those

[Seenowayout]

Ahhhh.  Yes Lighthouse and Toomanydogs -- i think most of us nons are fixers by nature.  Love me a good fixer upper -- my T told me that was arrogant of me to think I could fix another human being.  (As he was trying to fix me no less.)  I don't know that I was consciously trying to fix her, just trying to make her better and happy.  I loved her.  And yeah -- it came from a lifetime of being the adult in the family.

And I thought of another thing I can do now!

Be alone!    She said to me one time "You need your 'you time'"  and it was said with such a sneer that I felt deeply embarassed and ashamed (again).  It seemed so selfish to need me time.  Why would I want to leave her alone like that?  How weird is it that I want to be alone sometimes.  This is the extent of the gaslighting I was subject to.

I am one of six kids, the rest were girls, so yeah  -- I liked/needed my alone time.  And I'm an INFP -- I love people but they can drain energy from me.

Alone time is necessary.  Even Jesus did it!

[toomanydogs]

Be alone!    She said to me one time "You need your 'you time'"  and it was said with such a sneer that I felt deeply embarassed and ashamed (again).  It seemed so selfish to need me time.  Why would I want to leave her alone like that?  How weird is it that I want to be alone sometimes.  This is the extent of the gaslighting I was subject to.

I am one of six kids, the rest were girls, so yeah  -- I liked/needed my alone time.  And I'm an INFP -- I love people but they can drain energy from me.

Alone time is necessary.  Even Jesus did it!

Hey Seenowayout
I’m one of 7–6 girls, one boy. I’m the middle child. ENFP. However, the ‘E’ there is a bit misleading. I’m about 51% extrovert and 49% introvert.
I’m a writer. I need alone time abd I I need time when I can interact do I can find cool stuff to write about.

[ozmatoz]

I'm so glad this thread was started.  Heading into my 4-way tomorrow and have been struggling to see what awaits me.  The few times I have been able to escape, yes breathe.  Just knowing that she couldn't physically invade and bust in on me was like heaven. 

I really look forward to repairing some old friendships but I still feel this lurking over my shoulder.  Knowing she won't approve and that I'll hear about it at some point.  I need to get to a place where that doesn't matter any more.  This is my life to control now, not hers.

I wonder if anyone else feels their JADE-ometer exiting the red zone?

Interesting point.  I used to JADE a lot.  Like most here who were accused of ridiculous or completely false things the feeling to JADE would just happen instantly.  It took some time for me to put a pause before I responding to check myself.  To re-read the text before I sent it.  SET not JADE... .but still I'm only human, and my T said that bottling up everything forever just to get along w/stbxw would only harm me in the long run.

As far as exiting the red zone, absolutely.  Now that I'm more aware of my actions and responses I realize the only unhealthy JADE-ing I would do is with stbx.  Normal folks at work, or family members can handle "normal" discussions and counter-points.  I actually enjoy being able to freely speak with someone.  The less and less stbx and I interact the less JADE there is in my life.

Also I noticed that JADE-ing would really stress me out.  Just the feeling of having to be in a defensive position 24/7 was exhausting.  Really working on this one.

So glad to hear all of these stories.  I hope to add some of my own soon.

[lighthouse9]

Toomanydogs - I hear you about the writing thing. I didn't give it up in our relationship entirely, but I gave up writing in a way that synthesized the things I was thinking about or feeling when interacting in the world. I think every writer has to deal with the question of how their writing affects those in their life, because it's not necessarily fair to assume a partner is ok with the same amount of disclosure or honesty that you are. I think my STBXw came to resent some of my writing, and I pulled back on some of the honesty and disclosure, because I couldn't quite put a finger on what kind of stuff was ok with her and what wasn't. That's the whole no sense of self thing right? Everyday it changed, which made it tough for me to know what was ok. One good thing though, it got me into considering writing fiction and I have my first budding story going that has just been fun to play around with. I started it when our relationship was ending (I didn't know it yet, but she was in the midst of her affair at the time) and it had a lot of challenging themes from our relationship in it. Fiction felt like a way to struggle with those themes more symbolically. She read the beginning and loved it, and I felt connected to her in a way through the characters that we weren't connected at the time. As the trouble in our relationship heated up, I dropped the story for a bit and dealt with my life. I've been wanting to come back to it though.

A few nights ago, I was struggling with a cold and woke up pretty sick and unable to get back to sleep. As I was laying awake, my mind was flooded with ideas for the story and I sat up taking notes on my phone while trying to fall asleep. I've had a handful of books I've been wanting to buy as background research, too, and went ahead and bought them in the middle of the night hahaha.

It's not to say that I *couldn't* do these things with her, but they would have needed an explanation and I might have feared that she would use them against me one day. I'm only now learning the extent to which some of my more creative meandering moments became reframed as irresponsibility and impulsiveness when she'd talk to people who weren't friends of our marriage, like her sister or ex bf. It was always a tough line - she'd tell me how much she loved my creativity and the way my brain worked, but then I'd catch hell from her later for not working like "normal" people. When I got a normal well-paying job and managed to fit in my creative stuff on the side, I thought I had it figured out. Nope - that's when she left me. (Also, for the record, I was finishing my PhD when she was complaining about my work habits. For anyone who isn't familiar with what the last few years of that process is like, it's basically a process that drives you batsh*t, keeps you up at night, and you write all day sometimes and write nothing at all sometimes. Even with a high level of discipline, you're bound to have a work schedule that looks nothing like a "normal" schedule.)

So, now I make decent money and have all kinds of time to explore my ridiculous interests. I'm going to have to reel in the spending for sure in a bit here, but it's been fun to have a bit of divorce retail therapy. For me that looks like buying books, pocket knives, tools, and upgrading my car med kit. Weird, sure, but I'm reallllly enjoying not having to explain myself.

[lighthouse9]

Also I noticed that JADE-ing would really stress me out.  Just the feeling of having to be in a defensive position 24/7 was exhausting. 

Oz - I couldn't agree more. I'm an open and honest person. I make decisions out of a high degree of thoughtfulness. There's nothing I would do that I wouldn't be willing to hear "that's not working for me" or "that was not the best decision." Being constantly on the defensive just made me second guess myself all the time and made me feel like I wasn't being thoughtful or that maybe I was hiding something.

I was just reading a book about narcissism and the author talks about how people that fear their emotions tend to play emotional hot potato with others in their life. It's like a different degree of projection, where they take their own emotions and try to make it such that you all of a sudden made them feel that way. JADEing just provides the evidence in this game of emotional hot potato. Instead of saying "I'm feeling fearful" or "something is bothering me" it was like I was getting pushed into a defensive position to justify why I wasn't the one to fear or the one bothering her. In the process, I would inadvertently play right into the feeling of fear or discontent, especially because at that point we'd likely be in an argument about it. Or, I'd leave the conversation with some resolve to fix whatever it was that she was feeling, which would then either end up failing or end up being evidence of me trying to control everything. It was maddening. In the future, I want to get better at validation of feelings and resisting the urge to JADE, to maybe make more room for feelings to come out.

[ozmatoz]

Being constantly on the defensive just made me second guess myself all the time and made me feel like I wasn't being thoughtful or that maybe I was hiding something.

Yes indeed I can relate here.  I'm normally pretty easy going and if someone brings something to my attentions I try to understand and work with them to a reasonable solution.  I found that the more I had to defend myself, the more I started to question if I was really the one in the wrong.  My rational mind was saying "Gee... .if I really have to defend everything this often, there must be something wrong with me."  I knew at a deep level it wasn't normal I just needed to figure out it wasn't me.

I was just reading a book about narcissism and the author talks about how people that fear their emotions tend to play emotional hot potato with others in their life. It's like a different degree of projection, where they take their own emotions and try to make it such that you all of a sudden made them feel that way.

I have often felt there was a bit of NPD in the mix for me as well.  Stbx is masterful on spinning situations around on me.  Even now that I am more aware I still get caught up in the trap sometimes.  Reality is she's been practicing her survival skills this way her entire life... .she's bound to be good at it.  Now I just try to exit the conversation as quickly as I can.  When it gets to this level, there is no "winning".

[Seenowayout]

“Being constantly on the defensive just made me second guess myself all the time and made me feel like I wasn't being thoughtful or that maybe I was hiding something.”

This is so well said. It’s sort of the crux of the problem. At least my problem. We are open minded enough to say — well maybe I am wrong. We love them enough that their perception become our reality...   But we are not strong enough to defend our own self projection to say — NO!  I AM a good human being. A damne good human being.  And they are ABUSING our empathy. And this sort of thing could never succeed with truly good human beings. Because we have to stand up strong and love ouselves before we could ever deserve the honor of truly loving someone else

[downheart]

Really well said, seenowayout!

And ozmatoz I really like the point "she's been practicing her survival skills this way her entire life" - so of course she's good at it. So true! For me, recognizing that necessarily forces the reality that there will never be an "aha" moment and all will be better.  I have to remind myself that it's not evil, or not consciously evil, but it's an illness that's resulted in a twisted way of protecting herself.

[lighthouse9]

For me, recognizing that necessarily forces the reality that there will never be an "aha" moment and all will be better.  I have to remind myself that it's not evil, or not consciously evil, but it's an illness that's resulted in a twisted way of protecting herself.

I'm with you here downheart - and it's something I still struggle to internalize. I can't imagine living with so much fear or misunderstanding of the world (and as you know, I'm an Aspie, so I can get misunderstanding to a certain extent). A lot of it comes down to the no sense of self thing, or changing sense of self.

When I don't understand something or fear something, I at least have a sense of who I am, what I stand for, and therefore what I need to do or at least how I feel. I don't think my STBX wife can say this. She just has to protect herself, at all costs, at all times, and especially when things are good - because I don't think she believes that she deserves good things. Accepting good things means accepting you have needs, which means accepting vulnerability. None of us LOVE vulnerability, but can tolerate it or even cultivate it as a healthy thing (I'm thinking of Brene Brown's excellent work here). I think for my STBXw and people dealing w/BPD or NPD in general, vulnerability is terrifying and therefore the maladaptive protective mechanisms come out.

Yesterday, I went out into the woods on a hike, something we loved to do together, but it almost always stressed me out to go hiking with her, which of course then stressed her out. I was starting to believe that maybe I just didn't like to go hiking and that even though I grew up hanging out in the woods by myself everyday, I just lost my desire for it. Every time I missed her, I just hiked faster. It hurt like hell to be out there, but it was also amazing. I got lost, which would have freaked me out in the past, and last night I just kind of relished in it and enjoyed the detour.

The big difference was probably that I had a full bag of gear on me, because I'm obsessed with gear. I like to be prepared and love the idea of having everything on me I might need to survive. I want to take some backpacking trips, so I used last night as an opportunity to load up my pack and put a few miles in, even though I didn't really need anything that was in my heavy pack last night. She probably would have teased me for this, or gotten annoyed at me for wanting to have everything on me. It's just my thing, I like being this way. So, I guess I'll add that to my list of things I've been able to do - go out in the woods carrying whatever I want for however long or short as I want, without apology.