What makes a good Mother: Conversations with my T

[Harri]

"Hi, how are you?  I'm fine.  You're always fine.  Yes, because I am fine"

It always starts that way.  Then I turn things around and ask how she is.  Sure enough, she is always fine too.  We usually end up talking about what I did since I saw her last.  Her standing assignment to me is to get out of the house at least once a day.  After the first time I reported that I failed my assignment and only got out 5 times in a week, she laughed and said she really only thought I would get out 2 times, maybe 3.  Silly T, tricks are for kids.

This may not be a surprise to anyone but myself but my topic of discussion yesterday was mothers.  Specifically what makes a good mother.  Is good determined by the end product?  :)o mothers get to look at their adult child and all of their accomplishments and who they are and say See, I did a good job?  :)o they get to say my child loves me so therefore I did a good job?  Or what about when a mother (parent) says I gave up so much to make sure I could provide for you?  :)oes that mean someone was a good mother?  How about if you get a card on mother's day?  Plus flowers? Perhaps with a dinner thrown in?  Is that evidence of having been a good parent?  There are no straight answers there.  Certainly none that bring me peace.  There is always a but, or a wait a minute, or a bewildered 'huh?, that defines good for you?' and I am left wondering if we are all deluded.  

My mother had two kids and we both grew up to be law abiding citizens, are good people, who contribute in positive ways to society.  We are kind and decent people.  We are educated and well regarded by the people who know us.  All this in spite of my mother not because of her.

My brother and I loved our mother but our love was more for survival and therefore beyond our control and mixed with a huge dose of desperate fear.  Fear for our own sanity, safety and yes, fear for our mother and our family unit.  Fear governed our reactions and responses.  Fear was mistaken for love.  So of course we sent flowers, cards, had dinners.  We were terrified not to but equally terrified of what we did choose to do.  Wrong choices threatened the family unit, and each individual in that unit and we did what we thought was right... .only to be wrong time and again because the rules kept changing based on the whims and moods of a damaged mentally ill person.  We learned to freeze with indecision and then reach a point of panic only to just shut down once again or make a choice and damn the consequences, often with no logic evident in the process or in our end choice.  Besides, was it ever really a choice?  Choices like that should not be driven by fear and made in desperation nor are they to punished on a whim.  Yet that was our reality.  

My mother sacrificed greatly for my brother and I.  At least that is what we were told.  Time and again.  Isn't the sacrifice of a parent part of being a parent?  :)on't get me wrong.  I am grateful for the private college prep school... .even tho the reason she sent me there was due to her paranoid delusions that I was a wh*ring, drug addict hell bent on ending up a prostitute (never even had done drugs nor had sex... .well except for the whole mother daughter incest thing she had going with me).  I think she expected the nuns to turn me around.  Heh.  Jokes on her.  I started doing drugs only once I got sent to the private school.  Why not?  And by drugs I mean pot and speed.  

So what makes a good mother?  The requirements go way past providing enough of the basics that are legally required and do nothing more than keep CPS away from your doorstep.  A good parent, a good mother will not think twice about providing such things.  Not enough food to go around?  Mom gives the child her food.  Of course they will do that.  What else?  How about putting aside your own biases and actually seeing your child, what they need, seeing their personalities and then parenting according to their needs and who they are instead of who you are?  How about responding to your child in a way that builds them up rather you or a way that does not tear them down simply for being them?  

What my T and I concluded is that, beyond the CPS minimum requirements, you have to have the capacity to see your child, their needs, who they are, outside of yourself.  Infants, toddlers and then children are independent little people depending on you not just to raise them but to teach them.  You have to be able to demonstrate how to function in healthy ways within a family, with friends, in society.  How to build relationships but also how to limit them and even end them when necessary.  That is what parenting is about.  Teaching them how to be, how to function in the world and how to live.  

Some people will look at my brother and I and who we are and what we have accomplished in life and credit my parents.  They are wrong though.  We became who we are in spite of the devastating child abuse, emotional, mental and sexual.  We are who we are because of our choices which when you think about it, have little if nothing to do with who our mother or parents were.  We were the ones raising our mother, even our pathetic father, and given what we knew about life, essentially nothing, I think we did a pretty dam good job.  Our mother and father were able to, for the most part, maintain appearances, in large part due to who we were/are.  Our mother, severely mentally ill who my T keeps reminding me should have been in jail for what she did to us, never was hospitalized (her greatest fear), never jailed, never ridiculed, and never went hungry or without except when it was part of her paranoid delusional behavior.  When food was scarce or when a treat was limited, we gave up our share and gave to my mother.  When my mother was hurt, we tended to her wounds, emotional or physical.  When she was faced with a big decision, I usually made the choice as she would come to me for advice.  I could continue, but I think you get the picture.  My parents did not even parent as well as two scared, abused and clueless children managed.  

Perhaps the better question is to ask what makes a good child.
___________________________________________________
At end of T session when we wind down with silly stuff:
Me:  'I like bumble bees and I am glad to see they are making a come back.  I'd like to pet one some day, they look furry'
T:     'I like bees too.  There are too many hornets tho.'
Me:  'Hornets are asss'
T:     'Yes, they are the ASPDs of the bee world'

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri, 

I like the thinkingness of this post. (Notice the new made up word.  My brain is tired today after a trip to plant flowers at my dad's grave which is literally around the corner from the farm where I grew up. The topic you're bringing up is a good one. My experience quite parallels so many of the thoughts you put down, and the thoughts were not far away as I returned to the scene of my childhood home.

I think your conclusion along with your T is good. I agree with all those things, and I would add one more.
 
A good mom is one who keeps her child safe.

Safe physically, emotionally, spiritually, sexually. Some things that happen to us outside of the sphere of family are beyond any parent's control, yet the parent has the ability to sooth the broken, wounded places that come just from living, like skinned knees and a friendship breaking up or a loved one dying.

Safe. A bit deal to me.

 
Woolite 

[Harri]

Thanks for joining me Woolite   and thank you for bringing up the issue of safety.

I agree that keeping a child safe is a vital part of parenting.  We talked a bit about that too but more in relation to resiliency.  Like you said, a parent may not be able to protect a child from everything no matter how hard they try but if they have been parenting properly and consistently enough, the child will have the resiliency to overcome. 

A lot of people talk about kids having resiliency as if they are born with it.  They aren't.  It comes from proper parenting like I described and like you describe with keeping them safe.  Providing them with the means to develop emotional intelligence to be able to process adverse events and bounce.   
 

Safe physically, emotionally, spiritually, sexually. Some things that happen to us outside of the sphere of family are beyond any parent's control, yet the parent has the ability to sooth the broken, wounded places that come just from living, like skinned knees and a friendship breaking up or a loved one dying.

So well said Wools.   

Resiliency, teaching safety not based on fear but based on healthy responses to adversity, is what makes two people who go through the same experience have different outcomes.  I used to wonder how a person who has  experienced horrible things (rape, brutal beatings, violent relationships etc) can bounce back even stronger than before while another going through the very same thing never seems to recover.  It is because their parents parented by seeing the child as an individual and provided safety and so resiliency was developed and then built upon. 

Thanks so much for adding that vital part to the puzzle Wools.   

BTW, Thinkingness is a very cool word.

[Panda39]

I agree this is a brain teaser, I feel like I will think about this and come up with different things over time. I look at it as a daughter and as a mother.  I also think as a group we will come up with a lot of things based on what we think might have been lacking from our mothers and what we hope to provide as mothers.

You guys know my mom is not BPD but is more of a mismatch.  My physical needs were met, my educational needs were met, even many of my wants were met, I was safe etc... .she is not a horrible mother, but what would have made her a better mother would have been acceptance by her of my authentic self that I was good enough just the way I am.

As a mom, I see my son is my responsibility it is my job on a basic level is to make sure he his fed, clothed, has a place to live, goes to school, is healthy and is loved.  I have provided all of those things and I have failed in other ways... .I was married 20 years to an alcoholic, there was dysfunction, there were fights but I thought I kept it directed at me so it wouldn't affect my son but yet it did he was there and he saw it all.  So I like my own mother was not a perfect mother (is there really such a thing?)   

But where did I go right? 

My son was diagnosed with ADD at 6 and what did I do? I repeated my mother's behavior, I did what I learned... .I yelled, and pressured my son to be and behave like someone he wasn't.  I was trying to force him to be a kid without ADD.  It went on like this for a few years but at some point I chose the relationship with my son over perfect school work.  I let him be him and take charge or not of his school work/home work.  He barely graduated High School and had a 1.something GPA.  I let him do what he was going to do, but my expectation was that he would graduate High School and then go to college.

My son will be graduating from Community College next semester with a 3.0 GPA and we are close. Choosing him and letting him be him and do school his way was the right thing to do.

The other thing I did right was leave my marriage... .granted it took me foreeeeever to do it I stayed way too long but that would be the effects of co-dependence.  My leaving was a catalyst for my ex hitting rock bottom in relation to his drinking.  He hit bottom and has been sober for about 6 year now.  I was happier, living a healthier life and my son saw that his parents could change and be better versions of themselves. That people can change.

The last thing that I have been good at has been supporting and encouraging my son's interests.  That through supporting his interests I am supporting him.

I know I'll be thinking more about this thanks for starting such a thought provoking thread Harri 

Panda39

[Kwamina]

Hi Harri

Perhaps the better question is to ask what makes a good child.

So what is your answer to your own question?

A lot of people talk about kids having resiliency as if they are born with it.  They aren't.  It comes from proper parenting like I described and like you describe with keeping them safe.  Providing them with the means to develop emotional intelligence to be able to process adverse events and bounce.
... .
I used to wonder how a person who has  experienced horrible things (rape, brutal beatings, violent relationships etc) can bounce back even stronger than before while another going through the very same thing never seems to recover.  It is because their parents parented by seeing the child as an individual and provided safety and so resiliency was developed and then built upon.  

I agree with what you say here that it greatly helps when our parents instill certain positive beliefs in us and equip us with the tools to help us navigate through life.

But even when parents haven't done all these things, I think resiliency can sometimes still develop in a child. Children are not born with it, yet some might have certain natural traits which make it easier to cope with certain events. BPD parents who have not learned or are unable to manage their disorder, unfortunately often will not instill resiliency in their children in a positive manner, sadly often damaging their children. Yet at the same time, through their disordered behavior, they create an environment in which the child is forced to develop certain forms of resiliency and coping mechanisms to be able to survive. Sadly, not all of us were able to survive though, which is also a harsh reality. The ones of us that did survive, can now work on our healing and try to grow from survivor to thriver.

[Turkish]

Harri- you were a good mother... .to your mother 

To expand upon what Woolite said,  I think teaching children to keep themselves safe is thy sign of a good parent. 

My mom tried to take credit for me publicly,  except when she slipped behind closed doors and implied I hadn't done anything.  Thank GOD I didn't have Asperger's like my son (it's hard enough to deal with this and my uBPDx as his mother). I would have gotten the crap beat out of me regularly. 

I think it's fine to take some credit for how your kids turn out.  Panda, honest share and congratulations to your son,  and you for supporting him 

A good mother doesn't use her children as little validation machines for that which she lacks.  Goes for dads too!

I know this may be hard to discuss,  but it's a good topic and an opportunity to share safely among friends  lurkers... .you're out there.  What do you think?

[Fie]

Encouraging them to become more and more independent, while at the same time guaranteeing them that you will always be their safehaven for when things go wrong / they get hurt ?

[Harri]

Hey Panda and happy Mother's Day to you!

I feel like I will think about this and come up with different things over time.

Yes, I think my list of what is important today is different than 10 years ago.  Who knows what I will list in 10 years. 

You guys know my mom is not BPD but is more of a mismatch.  My physical needs were met, my educational needs were met, even many of my wants were met, I was safe etc... .she is not a horrible mother, but what would have made her a better mother would have been acceptance by her of my authentic self that I was good enough just the way I am.

The mismatch between you and your mom is actually very similar to those of us with BPD moms and is very significant in terms of being invalidated.  An invalidating environment is one of the key ingredients in developing BPD.  During my last session, my T said there are good kind people out there who are still lousy parents. 

So I like my own mother was not a perfect mother (is there really such a thing?)

This is not about being a perfect mother or parent.  It is about seeing outside of yourself and learning.  Mistakes happen all the time.  You learned and you then taught better ways of functioning as an individual and what is healthy and what is not and you lived by your own lessons.  *That* is what is important.  Kids primarily learn by observation.  They see what works in one relationship and not in another.  They see how a parent adapts and changes to challenges, poor choices, adverse experiences.  They can compare how one family works vs another.  You took your lessons and passed them on.  You did not hide, deny, project, blame.  You parented!  You learned and chose to put your child ahead of your own dreams and expectations.  No easy task that.  Be proud of yourself and share in your sons accomplishments.  *You* earned that right and I look to your post as an example of parenting done well.  Not perfectly done, but well done.

Kwamina! Hello Parrot.  It is good to see you.

Perhaps the better question is to ask what makes a good child.  So what is your answer to your own question?

  I have no answer.  You?

Yes a kid can develop resiliency through observation and use of their own characteristics independent of their parents.  I agree with everything you wrote.  Good point.  There is hope for those who have 'bad' parents.

I can just hear someone like my mom with a very severe mental illness saying "See, I did good".  The thing is, what we developed on our own has little if anything to do with good parenting.  Perhaps though it is the beginning of an answer to the question "what makes a good child".  Yes.  Thank you Kwamina.

Hi Turkish.  Your mother did not even do what I now refer to as the CPS minimum.  You are one of those kids Kwamina talked about... .using your own personal characteristics and developing your own resilience and keeping yourself safe.  Well done.

A good mother doesn't use her children as little validation machines for that which she lacks.  Goes for dads too!

Yes.  Children are not about building your ego and gratifying your needs as a parent.

Fie, Happy Mother's Day to you!  Yes, teaching them to be independent while knowing they have a safe haven is part of being a good mother.  Giving them a sense of competency. 

[Panda39]

Hey Panda and happy Mother's Day to you!

Thanks Harri! Been relaxing and sewing, my son is off picking up dinner (didn't want to go out and didn't want to cook either!)

The mismatch between you and your mom is actually very similar to those of us with BPD moms and is very significant in terms of being invalidated.  An invalidating environment is one of the key ingredients in developing BPD.

I was very lucky to have a dad that loved me just the way I was and I loved him dearly.  He died in 1997 and I miss him dearly.

I have often thought of myself in terms of BPD since discovering it. In some ways there but for the grace of God go I.

You know how they say things happen for a reason.  I often feel like having the relationship I do with my mother and coming from a co-dependent marriage with my ex and learning lessons from both, have made me a better partner to my SO and friend to his daughters.  We didn't go through the exact same things but we have enough in common that I have a good understanding (along with insight I have received here). Had I had a perfect relationship with my mother I might not have been as good at understanding my SO's daughters' issues around their mom.

Harri thank you for the validation and positive feedback. I really like being a mom.  

What makes a good child? Tricky question... .depends on how you look at it.
But I'll give it a go... .(qualities I like in my son)

Someone that listens.
Someone that is kind.
Someone that wants to learn.
Someone who is their own person.
Someone striving for independence.
Someone who speaks their mind.
Someone honest.
Someone who expresses their feelings.
Someone who can be fun and silly.

Panda39

[Learning2Thrive]

I know this may be hard to discuss,  but it's a good topic and an opportunity to share safely among friends   lurkers... .you're out there.  What do you think?

Got me! Harri, Wools, Turkish, Panda, Kwamina... .I’ve been lurking and reading for years . I’m so thankful for your sharing, compassion and wisdom.

I think it’s a combination and many variables are involved. It seems like some kids do seem to have a level of resilience that others don’t... .irrespective of the quality of parenting. It’s interesting in a very sad way. I know good parents who genuinely love and care and provide security, safety and amazing opportunities but the child is BPD or NPD.  I know kids that are in the most dire circumstances with abusive BPD or NPD parents but they don’t give up and have hearts of gold.

Our local news station reported the other morning that children who grow up in grossly abusive homes suffer their entire lives. I agree with that... .but most people (who have never experienced that level of abuse) don’t want to hear it.

I will say that I made many mistakes as a mother. I do NOT feel like I deserve anything for MD. I do not feel comfortable being celebrated.

Was I ever abusive myself? I would say, not intentionally. I certainly did not do to my children the horrific things that were done to me.  But if you were abused since birth (physically and emotionally) and you never underwent intensive therapy prior to becoming a parent, it’s quite likely you will repeat some level of disfunction or abuse that you learned.

This is not an excuse... .but an explanation. Logical, I think. But horribly sad and tormenting for someone who truly tried and wanted to do better.

We all learn in our own time. When I learned better, I did better.

I still struggle. But I do own my mistakes. I have openly owned all this to my now adult children and apologized.

I can only move forward. I can not undo the past. 3 out of 4 of my kids accept me as I am and we have wonderful relationships.

One has been manipulated by my NPD mother in her crazy gotcha game. It hurts. But I had to accept it and let go with love, allowing room for possible healing in the future.

I only have one life to live. The best I can do now is model for my adult kids that life is short and we are responsible for making the best of it every day as we move forward.

Not everyone will love us the way we love them. The people we love may not forgive us. And thats ok. We can still live with integrity and dignity while maintaining healthy boundaries and a sense of compassion.

[Turkish]

Our local news station reported the other morning that children who grow up in grossly abusive homes suffer their entire lives. I agree with that... .but most people (who have never experienced that level of abuse) don’t want to hear it.

Not to go nerd, but it's like the matrix. There may be some awareness,  but if people really knew the truth so close to home,  it might shatter society. 

I will say that I made many mistakes as a mother. I do NOT feel like I deserve anything for MD. I do not feel comfortable being celebrated.

Why do you not feel comfortable feeling celebrated? To tell the truth,  I feel the same about father's day. 

.
Not everyone will love us the way we love them. The people we love may not forgive us. And thats ok. We can still live with integrity and dignity while maintaining healthy boundaries and a sense of compassion.

Wise words 

[Harri]

Hi Learning2Thrive and happy belated Mother's Day to you too!  I am glad you came out of lurker mode.  Your voice is important and has certainly added to the conversation.  You show a level of vulnerability that is quite beautiful.  I don't think anyone intends to abuse anyone.  Like you said, when you knew better you did better.  The fact that you were able to talk with your kids about mistakes says a lot about the person you are and the growth you have gone through.  That takes strength and courage and shows a selfless love for your kids.  Being honest with yourself shows a pretty high level of self awareness and self care too. 

This thread is not meant to point fingers (well, except maybe at my dead parents... .but don't worry, they can handle it  ) nor is it meant to make people feel bad.  For me, I really want to know what makes a good mother because I haven't ever explored it before.  I know what makes a bad mother, but parenting from the opposite extreme can be just as damaging.  I am supposed to be a 'mother' to myself and my inner kid and how can I do that if I can't describe it?  The biggest reason I wanted to talk about this is because there are so many different opinions about what parenting is and what is considered good vs abusive.  How can you talk about something as a group without having defined *it*, whatever it is? 

Learning2Thrive said:

This is not an excuse... .but an explanation. Logical, I think. But horribly sad and tormenting for someone who truly tried and wanted to do better.

How devastatingly painful and how perfectly human this is.  I am so glad you felt safe sharing that here.  That is the reality for a lot of us posting here.  I never had kids, thankfully, but i have been abusive in other types of relationships.  Thankfully I never wanted kids because I am quite certain I would have been abusive to my kid(s).  How could I not be?  No, I would not have sexually abused them but I can see how I would have emotionally abused them.  Hell, even now some of my thoughts and beliefs are messed up.   

I only have one life to live. The best I can do now is model for my adult kids that life is short and we are responsible for making the best of it every day as we move forward.

Not everyone will love us the way we love them. The people we love may not forgive us. And thats ok. We can still live with integrity and dignity while maintaining healthy boundaries and a sense of compassion.

This is what being an adult is and you are doing it very well.   

Panda, I can tell you love being a parent just by the way you talk about it and how you talk about your son.  Hearing he is graduating community college after the high school experience makes me smile.  He is lucky to have you as are your SOs kids.  You know, all that you have learned and overcome helps us here on the board as well.  Thank you for keeping it real and sharing so freely.  It is people like you and Learning2Thrive who can teach us so much about how things can change and how we can overcome.  Thank you.

[Panda39]

Hi L2T,

Glad you dropped in! 

Our local news station reported the other morning that children who grow up in grossly abusive homes suffer their entire lives. I agree with that... .but most people (who have never experienced that level of abuse) don’t want to hear it.

Interesting that this was even a topic on the news, but I would say that it's not that all people don't want to hear it but that it is more about being completely outside of their experience and can't relate to it.

I do NOT feel like I deserve anything for MD. I do not feel comfortable being celebrated.

I was thinking about this, I'm not a giant mother's day celebrator either I don't want or expect a gift.  I usually spend Mother's Day... .I was going to say being selfish  ... .on self care and doing the things that I like to do that I set aside to meet the needs of someone else... .work, son, SO.  I do this with the support of my son.

But I do own my mistakes. I have openly owned all this to my now adult children and apologized.

I think this is key and I have done this as well.  We are human, we are not perfect, but when we recognize we've done something hurtful, or not helpful, or even wrong, we apologize and in the process validate our children, and acknowledge our imperfections, and show that even as adults we can make mistakes and learn.

Panda39

[Learning2Thrive]

Turkish wrote:

Why do you not feel comfortable feeling celebrated? To tell the truth,  I feel the same about father's day. 

Good question!

I suppose it’s leftover feelings of self worthlessness and shame and fear.

Care taking and rescuing is what I was groomed to do. It was my responsibility and I was not to call attention to myself in any manner that was not a direct benefit to my mother. This was never specifically spoken, it was just the way life was. If I got any kind of prize, academic award or recognition it could only be celebrated as a result of having her as my mother.

Attention became painful because I never knew what I was going to get. Could be her bliss for something she could claim. Could be her rage if she was in another mode. I eventually learned to try to fly under her radar as much as possible. So, maybe this avoidance of wanting to be celebrated is a leftover coping mechanism. Something to investigate and work on. There’s always something!   Thanks for the food for thought, Turkish.

So, why do you feel that way about Fathers Day?

[Learning2Thrive]

Harri wrote:

 I am supposed to be a 'mother' to myself and my inner kid and how can I do that if I can't describe it?  

First, thank you for your kind words and effort to welcome me. It means so much.

I can identify with your question above.

I’m working through something similar myself. I find it’s easier to mother and rescue others than to mother and rescue myself. Other people are worthy... .not me... .little prickly voices in my head are eager to chatter  

Oh... .it’s what I was groomed to do since birth. Take care of others and feel guilty for having any personal need. Maybe you can identify with this?

So, what I have started doing is to visualize myself as a separate person— an innocent little child of maybe 5 years old.

This seems to help me be KIND and GENTLE to me. I really need it because I have been busy beating myself up for years. Seeing myself as a separate individual—an innocent child—cuts off MOTHER FURY voice in my head.

I’m learning as I go. But this exercise really helps to shut out that negative voice so I can start to identify what I need.

Gentle hugs Harri. Sending you smiles and kind, gentle, 5 y/o L2T kiddo grins from me.

[Learning2Thrive]

Panda, thank you for your kind words and welcome. It means a lot to be accepted.

Panda wrote

Interesting that this was even a topic on the news... .

Background context, locally extreme child abuse is regularly becoming a spotlight in the news. The latest case involves a 7 y/o little girl being prostituted by both of her parents. Really horrific stuff. Last year, there was a much worse case where a mother was involved in raping and murdering her own little girl... .and it got worse from there.

The news channels seem to be trying to raise awareness about child abuse and the long term effects. Community messages of, “If you see something, say something.”

I think they’re trying to do good, but have to admit, it triggers me.  But I’m trying to work on my own resilience and face that trigger while dealing with the feelings that bubble up inside me like hot lava in a volcano.

Deep breath... .then I go for a long bike ride.

[Learning2Thrive]

No, I’m really not trying to take over this thread. I promise I’ll go back to being quiet shortly. This topic has really got me thinking now. In some really positive ways. So I thought I would share a bit more.

Panda, I also wanted to add that I really enjoy reading how much you love being a mom to your son. I admire that so much and how much you care about your SO’s daughters. It’s refreshingly wonderful to read.

I have a friend who never had children. She mentioned recently that every once in a while she regrets it... .but overall is at peace with her decision.  She does a lot of work for abused and neglected children so she sees a lot of really messed up situations.

We had a very healthy conversation about the importance of emotional maturity for good parenting.

 So, I will add to the top of my list: A good mother should have strong and positive emotional maturity. I know I have exponentially more emotional maturity now than when I was in my 20s and 30s. We

Another characteristic  or two of a good mother: She has confidence and she both likes herself and is at peace with herself. In essence, she has a strong and confident sense of self.  I’ve been doing a lot of work in this area. I am only just now beginning to like me and enjoy spending time getting to know me.  It’s kind of fun to have a whimsical curious conversation (with myself) about what I like and why.

[Panda39]

Background context, locally extreme child abuse is regularly becoming a spotlight in the news. The latest case involves a 7 y/o little girl being prostituted by both of her parents. Really horrific stuff. Last year, there was a much worse case where a mother was involved in raping and murdering her own little girl... .and it got worse from there.

... .I think they’re trying to do good, but have to admit, it triggers me. 

this stuff would trigger most people.

bouncing off L2T... .The desire to be a mother, not because you want something from your child, not because your trying to save your marriage, not because your biological clock is running out, not because society says it's time to be a mother, but simply because it is your calling.

Panda39

[CollectedChaos]

Hi all    I appreciate you all sharing your thoughts on this.  This was a topic I had in the back of my mind all weekend, and it's great to read other's thoughts on it too.

bouncing off L2T... .The desire to be a mother, not because you want something from your child, not because your trying to save your marriage, not because your biological clock is running out, not because society says it's time to be a mother, but simply because it is your calling.

I think this heads well into my main thoughts on what makes a good mother.  I think it comes down to being emotionally capable of looking at a child and thinking "what does this child need from me?" as opposed to thinking "what do I need, and can this child provide those things?"  Or, wondering what you can gain from helping your child instead of wanting to help for the sake of helping and supporting them.  I think this is where my mom's flaws were, at their core.  She was unable to realize that she was the parent, and that meant she was supposed to care for and support the children, instead of the other way around.  The older I get, the more I see that this likely wasn't done knowingly (when I was younger I saw it as her, as the adult, knowing better and purposefully being hurtful), but since this is how she operated in any relationship in her life, it easily bled into her relationship with her children.  She never got past that very adolescent view of the world where everyone is looking at her and the world revolves around her.  So, I guess self-awareness is the point I'm getting at? 

In essence, she has a strong and confident sense of self.

I definitely agree with this too, L2T - I think this was another of my mom's major issues.  She was so wrapped up in what others saw in her and what image she wanted to portray to various people that I don't think she ever really figured out who she was.  And because I spent my whole childhood/young adult life trying to please her, I didn't learn who I was either.  I've also been working hard in this area - it's tough!  I definitely applaud you.  It's an odd place to be in, learning all of these things that others have seemingly known about themselves for decades.

Sorry for my rambling!  This topic has my brain heading in a few too many directions at once    Thanks again to all of you for sharing, it has given me a lot to think about and process.

[Harri]

Learning2Thrive I hope you do not go back to lurker mode.  Your voice is important and relevant and helpful.

Panda said to L2T:

I think this is key and I have done this as well.  We are human, we are not perfect, but when we recognize we've done something hurtful, or not helpful, or even wrong, we apologize and in the process validate our children, and acknowledge our imperfections, and show that even as adults we can make mistakes and learn.

This made me think about how many of us here have posted they want/need an apology, some acknowledgement of the wrongs done, the mistakes made, the hurts inflicted.  I don't think an apology fixes everything or even anything but in a lot of cases it can certainly ease a bit of the doubt about our own perceptions and experiences (that validation that Panda mentioned).

L2T and Panda, how did your kids respond to your apologies if you don't mind sharing? 

L2T, I can definitely relate to taking care of others all my life.  Well, until recently that is.  I am not cured by any means but I am much better at believing, or being willing to try to believe I have worth and value just for being me.  I still have thoughts that I have no value and find myself still pulled to make decisions based on having no value, but I can't tell if I really still believe them or it is just habits that I am falling back on.

This seems to help me be KIND and GENTLE to me. I really need it because I have been busy beating myself up for years. Seeing myself as a separate individual—an innocent child—cuts off MOTHER FURY voice in my head.

This is a very good way to change how you see yourself and how to deal with that horrible voice.

I promise I’ll go back to being quiet shortly.

Why?  Is that good for you?  Is it self-care or is it that negative voice?  Something else?

Collected Chaos

, welcome to the convo!  I too have found all of the comments very helpful and enlightening.  Im very happy with the direction we are going in too.  Speaking from a more positive place about mothers and motherhood is certainly helping me to see things in a more realistic frame work. 

I too find very few of the abusive BPD behaviors we experienced to be intentional.  BPD is about emotional dysregulation and poor executive function.  It is also pervasive so as you mention the behaviors will often (always?) cross from adult/adult to adult/child.  After all, the mother child relationship an intimate, and some believe it is the most intimate, relationship.   

Any more comments or thoughts on what makes a good mother?

[Harri]

I want to put this link here as the book addresses some of what we are talking about here.  The need of a mother (parent) to put their own ego aside.

The Conscious Parent

[Turkish]

Once they find their way back to their essence, parents enter into communion with their children, shifting away from the traditional parent-to-child "know it all" approach and more towards a mutual parent-with-child relationship. The pillars of the parental ego crumble as the parents awaken to the ability of their children to transport them into a state of presence.

So "because I said so" isn't a legitimate parent to child interaction? My kids question this too 

[Harri]

Turkish, That. Made. Me. Laugh. Out. Loud.   

No, that does not count as good parenting though it may count as good enough parenting.  ;P  This is not about perfection it is about learning to do better.

BTW, serves you right for having smart kids.  It worked just fine when my parents used it.  Maybe you have to couple it with fear and rage?  Yeah, try that next time. 

[Woolspinner2000]

So much great thinkingness going on here!  Great job with the thinking caps everyone!

I was reviewing some of my T notes and realized another important trait of parenting (and grandparenting). My T pointed this out as we talked about my grandchildren, how much I love love love to be around them.  I think it is important that we delight in our children for that will help a parent to be a good parent. The genuine feel-it-down-in-your-heart delightful pleasure of being in their presence. It brings such joy to the child and the parent.

Woolite  (or maybe I'll be Woolsie today)

[Harri]

Nice addition Woolite!   

I've seen this when I watch my friends or my brother and SIL greet their kid(s) when they come home from school.  Their faces and eyes just light up with joy.  I feel the same way with my nephew when I see him.  It's such a contrast to when I used to get home from school only to be greeted by a dark home, depressed sleeping mother or a raging mother in a house that was charged with electricity, ready to blow any second. 

How old are your g-kids Woolite?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri, 

One is going to be 5 this summer and the other is almost 2 1/2. Happiness in the little ones!

A couple weeks ago in session with my T, he encouraged me to delight in my own little ones, my inner children, just as much as I delight in my grandchildren. I was astonished   to consider such a possibility. It's an incredible thought to try to let settle into my head and heart. I'm still in process of mulling this over.

I share that because is it not possible for us to consider the things mentioned in this thread as qualities to put into practice in our individual lives, for ourselves and our inner children? How much would this radically change how we see ourselves?

 
Woolite

[Learning2Thrive]

Harri wrote:

 

Learning2Thrive I hope you do not go back to lurker mode. 

Thank you Harri. I have made a goal for myself to participate more as I am able to do so in a thoughtful, constructive and compassionate manner (time issues and trigger issues).

L2T and Panda, how did your kids respond to your apologies if you don't mind sharing?

My sons have been receptive, asked specific questions when they had questions and I provided honest, loving and sincere answers accepting my responsibility for my own failures. My daughter who is close to my uNPD mother and uNPDx (her father)—and I believe suffered from parental alienation from me (story for another time)—was angry and enraged.

Quote: I promise I’ll go back to being quiet shortly.

Why?  Is that good for you?  Is it self-care or is it that negative voice?  Something else?

Got me! It’s complicated because it’s a combination of self-care (time and triggers, as well as practicing mindfulness). To be honest, there is a bit of flying under the radar to avoid the spotlight (childhood coping mechanism) and potential conflict.

Thanks, Harri, for pressing me a bit. It helped me identify yet a few more areas to work on.

L2T

[Enabler]

Our local news station reported the other morning that children who grow up in grossly abusive homes suffer their entire lives. I agree with that... .but most people (who have never experienced that level of abuse) don’t want to hear it. ~~~~

~~~~ I still struggle. But I do own my mistakes. I have openly owned all this to my now adult children and apologized.

I think there is a link between these two statements. One of the reasons that children of abusive (intentionally or unintentional) suffer their entire lives is because it's very very difficult for anyone to have 100% disgust for their parents actions. We are genetically programmed to love our parents almost unconditionally... .maybe one of the reasons why your mother has never been behind bars... .Adults of childhood abuse cannot make sense of how their parents could have done this to them so live with the unhealed wound of 'why?', and most abusive parents never own their mistakes, some may not even be aware of them.

Owning it, openly and honestly with accountability... .now that's mega

[Learning2Thrive]

I think there is a link between these two statements. One of the reasons that children of abusive (intentionally or unintentional) suffer their entire lives is because it's very very difficult for anyone to have 100% disgust for their parents actions. We are genetically programmed to love our parents almost unconditionally... .maybe one of the reasons why your mother has never been behind bars... .

Interesting consideration. Stepping back to gain broader perspective, I am beginning to see waves. In some families this generational thing is mind boggling.

[Harri]

Enabler:

Adults of childhood abuse cannot make sense of how their parents could have done this to them so live with the unhealed wound of 'why?', and most abusive parents never own their mistakes, some may not even be aware of them.

This is me and my mother.  I have tried for a long time to understand why I loved my mother.  It just is.  Mostly due to primitive survival response but well, it just is.  One thing I do know for sure is that in my mothers mind she loved me, that she believed everything she did was out of love and that she believed she was a good mother.  The facts say otherwise to all of that but she could never see the facts outside of her own disorder.


L2T:

In some families this generational thing is mind boggling.

Yes.  I find it overwhelming to think about.  How do you address that?