Someone please tell me there is hope

[Invested]

I am married to a high functioning BPD, 20 years now. Invested a lot of resources in therapy and DBT. Learned the skills. Have two young children. I have managed to build the awareness and skills to understand what is happening. I have developed strong boundaries and helped our children do the same. Educated myself and our kids. Hopeful, AND at the same time struggling from the rejection. Understand she is just protecting herself. I get it, does not make it any easier. Will someone please tell me there is hope. That is all I need right now. Hanging in there. Thanks, KG

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[pearlsw]

Hi KG,



Wow. It sounds like you have done quite a lot of work here to make things as good as you possibly can over the years. Has something happened recently to make you feel particularly hopeless? Or is it just the years and years of doing this?

May I ask more, out of curiosity and potentially the benefit of others here, what you did to educate the kids to deal with these issues?

In what way is she rejecting you? Do you get breakup threats?

with compassion, pearl.

[Invested]

Hello Pearl, thanks for taking the time to reach out. This feels good. I have also got some peace from reading other's stories. Answering your first question... .getting both our boys in to DBT a few years back was pivotal - leading by example and entering DBT myself to learn the skills. Teaching them about validation and empathy. Primary and secondary emotions. Letting them know that it is OK to share their vulnerable feelings and that they will be validated, validating the valid of course. They are both now aware of their emotions. This has been incredibly difficult for them as their was so much invalidation at home and at school. Mom and eldest son, both having ADHD and RSD... .lots of emotional dysregulation. Youngest really suffering in not knowing what the chaos was all about for so long. Was not until about 5 years ago I really got to understand ADHD, RSD, in my family and strongly suspect my wife also has high functioning BPD. So, letting them know it is OK to feel feelings and to share them. Getting them the treatment and the tools they need, and above all, letting them know that it is essential to protect their limits. This all said, Mom is now shut down - takes two to tango and the other three in this family are no longer dancing. There is little opportunity for dysregulation anymore which I think may be very difficult for her. It has gone from 10s down to 1's and 2's, simply wonderful. Regarding where we are now, the threats of abandonment (divorce) have subsided, that is nice. However, now it is complete withdrawal from intimacy of any sort - she is kind of numb. I get it. Self-protection, for very good reason I am sure. As far as my losing hope... .just don't see the light. Each day I validate where appropriate, that I understand how difficult it must be, empathize where appropriate, maintain my limits, stay very well regulated, stand firm like a rock in the face of sarcasm and or passive aggressive comments. I do not believe in ultamatums, however, just do not see much movement or her being appreciative in any way. At times she just acts so childishly and hurtful. Though I know the love is there (hoping this is not wishful thinking). I am pressing for us now to do family therapy with a really good DBT Family therapist. Letting her know that it is important, now we have moved through serious trauma, that we all should have a voice. My guess is it may just be the three of us. However, I am learning to ask for what I want, and not allow all the past dysregulation to scare me today. Show loving kindness and also the firmness that I lacked for so many years. Just looking to hear from people that there is hope. Thanks for asking me to elaborate. KG

[teapay]

You've invested alot in DBT in yourself and kids.  That is good, but has your wife had alot of DBT and therapy.  There is only so much you can do without that component.  If she is getting DBT or has had it, she should be working it and not shutting down.

[rj47]

I genuinely applaud you Keith. My seeing a therapist to develop healthy coping behaviors was turned on me and in itself became a trigger. The last few years of a decades long RS (and after the kids had grown up) I resorted to pushing back and engaging. It was mostly a planned sort of theatre for me as I hate confrontation, but it did exhaust the rage and endless circular arguing more quickly. In hindsight it was the wrong thing to do.

You've probably reached the point of "Radical Acceptance". Its about the only conclusion I could reach, it helped me greatly and I lived that way for a long time. It was only when she migrated into destructive acts and behaviors that I finally could take no more. Hang in there. You are doing the right thing.

[pearlsw]

Hi KG,

Well I have a feeling it is you who is going to be giving many of us hope with all the efforts you have put into your entire family! Wow! Very impressive work here.

But I see that you are feeling empty. Have you looked at that a bit? Are you just not getting all of your needs met? Is there a way to have the relationship, but find satisfaction in other areas of life or do you dream of exiting this?

What do you think of rj47's idea about Radical Acceptance?

You say she is numb... .Do you think there is Depression in the mix here too?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[once removed]

youve put a lot of effort into change, and i really applaud you. it sounds like in the process youve found your emotional center.

you mentioned youre struggling with rejection (can you elaborate on this?), and that she has shut down. sometimes change is scary, especially so for our partners.

whats the communication like between the two of you? any affection?

the reason i ask is because our partners tend to need an extra helping of reassurance and hand holding so to speak. it might help, while you are investing in yourself and your family, to connect with her emotionally, in a way that reassures her and makes her feel a part of the change.

[Invested]

Hi Teapay, Rj47, Pearl, and Once Removed, appreciate your feedback. Pearl, I am making greater efforts to take care of myself. I love my work and the people I work with - doing real good for many. That said, even though this does fill me up, it is not just for me. I have found myself isolated. Ensuring the safety, health and well-being of my children has taken just about all I have, and I will not fail them. They are in a really good spot all things considered. But, thank you for thinking of me. I will be focusing on this now the storm has passed. once removed, feeling, is so scary for her, she is shut down, not allowing any closeness. That said, I need to get the strength to approach again - ask for what I want. Just so damn scary having been rejected and blamed for so long. I will give this a shot though, thanks for the encouragement. rj47, thanks for your kind words - I think yes, radical acceptance that is a great way to describe it. You know, I have two great kids and would not ever want to change the fact that I married my wife and have two beautiful young men in the making that will go out and do good... .and at the same time, it is a lonely relationship for me. I do believe I am grateful for having had this life. teapay, DBT saved me and my family. In her stable place, I know she knows how wonderful DBT is, that said, not sure that even in her stable place she accepts that she is BPD high functioning... .all of the blame comes at me. She has all the signs of BPD and the history, it is hard for me to imagine she does not know, however, I do understand that even this is entirely possible. My dream is she would one day get treatment. This is my hope that I hold on to. However, it is lonely on the wait. I like once removed's idea, some hand holding, reassurance, maybe that will bring her to a place of being able to trust. Scary stuff. Thank you all. KG

[teapay]

If you feel you and your kids are doing better than you were at your lowest point and your family isnt in crisis, kick back and recharge by feeling grateful and good about that for a few weeks and see if you feel better after that.  Most BPD relationships don't get as far as you've gotten.  Feel good about that and recharge your self confidence.  If your W is doing better than her lowest take solace in that too.

With that said, after that recharge, make sure you still hold your wife accountable for her behavior and responsibilit for her mental health.  If she has made progress don't let her backslide to much.  You are not doing her any favors by letting her backside.  Expect her to make some kind of progress.

If you are afraid your marriage and family might unravel if you challenge her and hold her accountable, spend so time honestly examining that fear---what it exactly is and why.

[pearlsw]

Hi KG,

Are you able to enjoy anything about being with your wife, or are things in an entirely bad place right now?

warmly, pearl.

[once removed]

I need to get the strength to approach again - ask for what I want.

this might seem counterintuitive:

do you know what she wants?

[Invested]

Thank you all, thank you teapay for the thought provoking question. "Why is it I am reluctant to challenge and hold her accountable. What do I fear - am I thinking about that?" (or words to that effect). I think it a # of things. Being completely honest (of course), I think it because in my history is abandonment, I first became aware of this at age 30 and now we are some 25 years later! Extensive work. Lots of acceptance and understanding... .so, though that is there, just not sure that is the primary reason I have backed off over the years, not stood up, allowed abuse (mental / emotional). That has all changed over the past 3-5 years. I am solid about knowing my values now and maintaining limits, taught our boys this as well. Most likely though, I have been conditioned to expect the worst. From experience, when I have exerted my limits, it almost feels like I get ripped to shreds - she is quick and agile when it comes to her tongue. I do not think it planned, rather it just happens, I guess that comes from her past. The attacks are swift, sarcastic, belittling. Totally lacking any empathy. I walk away badly bruised. So, I learned a style to avoid this. A style that does not work. the other piece as to why I have remained scared is really concern for our boys. What would happen of I am not in the picture. So three reasons I guess for not being assertive. Most likely, I have rewarded, validated, the bad behavior by giving her what she wants... .She hurts by being angry, I reward her anger by giving her what she wants / needs - complete control! The cycle continues. It has been changing though. Needs to change more and I must not give up the forward progress - I will stand up. Thanks teapay. KH

[rj47]

Hello Keith. I spent many years denying the reality of what I was confronting. Over and over I failed miserably thinking I could gently help my partner to fix herself. In pain and out of options I could continue fighting while miserable, run, or painfully accept something that I could not change while trying to find meaning and purpose. Took a long time, but in the process of accepting I gradually evolved into being more mindfully responsive to her. Rather than being reactive following old patterns I started to feel real empathy. The downside for me over time was that I tolerated and enabled the behavior more eventually thinking "this is your life, deal with it". I forgot what I think is central to radical acceptance; making the most of a bad situation while knowing (and believing) that there's plenty in life worth pursuing, nurturing, and living. Its real work. I managed to stay in the relationship for many years until it become destructive and dangerous. I still care and she's doing better several years later after hitting rock bottom. Hang in there brother. You're on the right path even if you have to make occasional course corrections for finding one that gets you pointed in a direction that works.

[once removed]

Lots of acceptance and understanding... .so, though that is there, just not sure that is the primary reason I have backed off over the years, not stood up, allowed abuse (mental / emotional). That has all changed over the past 3-5 years.

according to this, what stage would you say your relationship is in: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[teapay]

The fears you mention are quite common among others, especially fathers in your same position.  Addressing them head on will be empowering whether you stay or leave the relationship, and I hope you've already experienced some of that.  Are you teaching your W that you are permitted to express yourself and that you absolutely won't tolerate abuse in response, that she doesn't get an abuse freebie, regardless the reason.  That is a limit too, a very important one for you and her.  She might not like that, but generally abusers are left in the dust because most people ultimately won't tolerate it. 

 Do you give consequences for abuse?  Does she treat others outside the family with abuse too?  Why or why not?

[WileyCoyote]

Hi Keith, 
   There is already a lot of good feedback in this thread so I won't repeat.

I will however give you something to think about.   There is always hope, but that has it's own issues.

I am a very hopeful person.  Shoot, I just put that in my intro post.  But I am aware of it's limitations, and one of the things I work on is being more optimistic, and less hopeful in my view of life.  That sounds negative, but I ask you to read and contemplate this:

https://creationcenter.org/the-illusion-of-hope/

What do think of the article?

[Invested]

Rj47, thanks for taking the time to post this. Radical acceptance. Over the pas two years or so, I find I am so aware of the "shots' at me, that they no longer derail me as they did when I was not aware of what was coming at me. I an very good at being a rock now, does not mean the comments do not hurt. They do. Just I can let them go. These comments seem so childish now, just not helpful, though I am convinced they are not meant - just coping strategies. I offer lots of empathy, however, it is hard for her to accept that from me.
Once removed, not sure. There is no doubt that she is hiding behind a giant wall - self-protection. However, my feeling is that this is to protect form all of the anger and pain and sadness that resides in side of her from history... .not because of conflict. As a man, her partner, to be vulnerable to me, would mean vulnerable to all of those historical scary feelings. Not sure where to go. She is not in a position to be vulnerable. Completely, understandable - I will validate and empathize wherever I can and where it is valid.
Teapay, the passive aggressive and sarcasm is just on me and the boys. So conflict avoidant with everyone else. And I do mean everyone. Easy to take out your crap on someone you love. I do not accept the abuse, call it out when it happens. Not sure what consequence there is that I can use. To date, the consequence has been to say no... .does not appear to be anything else at this time and I am not one for ultermatums. Still so hard to get my feelings out as she is quick to interrupt and even harder to ask to let me finish. The words come like razors at me. She is super quick and super good at twisting stuff.
WileyCoyoe, love the article. Thanks for sharing. No doubt I have lived a life of hope ever since I said "I do". I get it. Being hopeful neglects the present. I love "to be courageous" from the here options. I have acted with courage, decency, integrity. I will continue to do so, however, I will be mindful not to "hope" - action and courage.
To all: I have only been psoting for a few days, and already I feel very supported and stronger. I will hang in there, double up the limits, double up the empathy, double up the courage. I appreciate you all. Thank you for sharing. KG

[teapay]

You really seem to be working hard on behalf of yourself, kids and family.  You mentioned your W has had/is in therapy for a while.  Do you feel she is concretely working on her own recovery and making true measurable progress?  She should be.  Is that a deal breaking issue for you?

[Invested]

Hi Teapay, thanks for asking. No she is not. Was in, however, that stopped years ago, and honestly, she was so good at hiding this stuff, her therapist never identified. I was the recipient of much of the blame. She acknowledges ADHD but not high functioning BPD... .big problem, no treatment. My guess she knows. Where do I stand ... .committed but making sure my limits are maintained... .hopeful, however, thanks to Wiley Coyote, reframing that to focusing on being courageous. This is intense stuff. My #1 priority are my children of course. I have done the work, now I will use the tools to the very best of my ability and try to encourage treatment... .without it I do not see her making the moves she must make to face her fears  ... .I am here for her, also here for myself more than ever. Thank you again. KG

[Radcliff]

I am truly impressed by all the hard work you've done!

You said in your intro post that you've been working the tools, and have nailed boundaries.  Your later posts, though, made it seem less certain.  Can you give an example of an area where you think you've nailed a boundary nicely, and one where you've not yet been able to manage a boundary to your satisfaction?

How old are your kids?

WW

[Invested]

Hi WW, thanks for check on me. I am insisting on no verbal abuse from either my wife, boys, to me, each other, or W. For the longest time I never saw it, heard it, things would be said and I would miss the harshness of it. Sarcasm, interruptions, talking over the top of me when I am sharing something important or that something hurts. I am asking for kindness. Also, insisting on not being invalidated. Can't make W validate, however, can say no to invalidation. Cant stop her from invalidating me, however, can share how it makes me feel and ask her to stop. If refuses, can leave the room. Educating my boys so they have the skills to set boundaries, ask not to be invalidated is also important. I have not done well when it comes to asking for intimacy... not sure this answers your question, however, it feels like a boundary violation for her to be withdrawn... read a post earlier about the silent treatment. For W I think it self protection, however, also feels manipulative and controlling. That said, finding it hard to ask for intimacy, having been rejected so much. Boys are 14/12. Thanks again, KG

[pearlsw]

Hi KG,

Wanted to drop this in here... .

I could have sworn there were more resources than this on the Silent Treatment but here this is at least!

warmly, pearl.

[Invested]

Thanks Pearl. I appreciate this material. Just about nails it. I will not be dragged back by this silence. When the times are right, I re-assert our need for family therapy. We all need a voice as to how this has impacted us. There is a lot. I will also assert my strong desire that she seeks treatment. Honestly, now I see it for what it is, and we all see it, though the boys do not know the labels, probably a good thing, life is so much easier. It is lonely, without intimacy, however, I have the DBT skills, and the knowledge now, to be the best husband and father. Hoping it does not end up friend and father, however, willing to accept that if she does not agree to do her part. I will need all the support and skill I can muster, and hopefully, she will make that choice for herself. Sadly, I am often reminded, the worse the childhood abuse, the fiercer the defense mechanisms. Very sad when I think of that, will do all I can. Thanks again, KG

[Invested]

Hi All, following up on my first post, "is there hope / someone let me know there is hope" thread.

I appreciate all the feedback. There is no doubt for me that W if an extremely high functioning BPD. Scary. Even though I know she is, her personal attacks are still scary. The same verbal and emotional attacks that I have been experiencing for over 20 years now.

The difference is that I now know that they are covering up great pain and emptiness for her as well as family of origin trauma. I started to become aware of this 5 years or so ago as boys started to become symptomatic ... .really became aware of it 3 years or so ago. Have since educated myself and now feel very much in tune with the dynamics and the projections, the attacks.

So it was no real surprise when my recent request for her to join me in family therapy was met with verbal attacks (past attempts at couples were destructive as those therapist either completely missed the ADHD / NPD / BPD, or chose to not go there - thereby using me as the vessel to hold all the pain, thinking he can handle it).

My approach requesting family therapy was nothing short of warm, loving, caring, and thoughtful. The response, no way and that is because I am bad, not trustworthy, the list goes on. It was delivered in an angry way, threatening, dismissive, and its all your fault way. Still, all said and done, as sad as I am that there may never be awareness on her part and our family will be ripped apart by divorce, I was OK hearing this attack. I am not numb to it, it does hurt, it is sad, however, I am strong and have developed the confidence in myself that if this is where it goes, I will be OK, and my boys will be to. So that is where I am at - needed to vent. Thanks for allowing me to!

Does anyone have any success stories for me? I sure would love to hear and read about them. It is so sad looking in to the eyes of someone who is that angry, that scared, and hearing words come out that try to project it on to me. Just me. No one else in the world, just me. The one man that has been there for her and my boys every step of the way. She not knowing that every step is good, is solid, is kind, because it feels so scary to her. I can only imagine.

Thanks for listeing. Best, KG

[once removed]

My approach requesting family therapy was nothing short of warm, loving, caring, and thoughtful. The response, no way and that is because I am bad, not trustworthy, the list goes on.

can you tell us more? specifically, what was said on your end and hers?

she is shut down. you know your wife best - i think its going to require getting into her shoes a bit in order to connect.

[Radcliff]

Hello Invested, it's been a while.  How are you doing?

You mentioned that you felt like our wife being withdrawn was a boundary violation.  Can you explain a little more about why you feel that it violates boundaries?  (I'm not denying it's harmful to the relationship, but want to explore it a bit).

WW

[Invested]

Hi Wentworth, thanks for you Q. If I said that withdrawal felt like a boundary violation it was unintended... .her withdrawal is for self-protection, totally understandable, totally OK if that is what she needs to do. Even though it does hurt. Boundary violations for me are her sarcasm, PA behavior, projections, stuff like that. I am actually about to make a post, that will share more. Thanks for asking for clarification. Thanks for being there with this site... .your time. Best wishes, INVESTED

[Radcliff]

Invested, I'll look forward to that post.  Have you had a chance to check out the boundary information on this site?  To learn more about boundaries as we teach them, you might want to visit this page on setting boundaries, this thread on scripts for setting boundaries, and this thread on boundary setting examples.

That first page is the most important.  It's not the way most folks think about boundaries, but ends up being more successful.  The most useful concept is that boundaries are about what we do in response to something we're trying to protect ourselves from.  For example, what do you do when you experience her projection?  Can you describe an incident?

WW

[Invested]

Thanks WentWorth. Appreciate you sending these links. Invested

[Radcliff]

Hi Wentworth, thanks for you Q. If I said that withdrawal felt like a boundary violation it was unintended... .her withdrawal is for self-protection, totally understandable, totally OK if that is what she needs to do. Even though it does hurt. Boundary violations for me are her sarcasm, PA behavior, projections, stuff like that. I am actually about to make a post, that will share more. Thanks for asking for clarification. Thanks for being there with this site... .your time. Best wishes, INVESTED

A belated Happy Father's Day to you!  Life's busy, I am sure.  When you're ready to continue the discussion and catch us up on how you've been doing, we'll be here!

WW