After three years of marital therapy, we're still in this same pattern

[bj_s]

I am thinking of telling my spouse I want a divorce, once I gather the clarity and confidence to tell him and the kids. I know this is a BPD board, and I don't think he has many of the symptoms of it (though I am quite sure that my mother does... .which is  what brought me here), but the "anger dysreguation" and "hypersensitivity to perceived rejection" are two traits of BPD that he definitely shares. Here's the latest incident:

April 2018: Our usual pattern occurred again. I don't feel like I'm even "me" anymore because I'd so rather let him have his way on many things rather that face another misunderstanding with him. It's upsetting to me that even after three years of marital therapy, we're still in this same pattern. The therapist still has hopes that I can learn to "soothe" him (rather than freezing up in resentful panic) and that he can learn to soothe me (rather than turning to verbal attack). I don't know.

This time I tried staying in the room with him as he ranted, because I know that my fleeing in tears only escalates him further and may cause him to follow me (or even to keep ranting at me through a locked door). Ironically, he told me to "GO SOMEWHERE ELSE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT!" in the end.

I don't understand why our misunderstandings have to be so horrible. The way this one started is that he turned to me and asked me the question ":)on't you agree [that our son should  have cleaned up his own mess or at least told us about the clogged toilet)]?" I started to say "It might be humiliating to tell a parent about that. It's pretty embarrassing for anyone". Or something like that; We'll never actually know, because he cut me off at "It might be humil... ." and begin railing at me for telling him he was "wrong", for ascribing to him the intent to humiliate our son, and for paying more  attention to our son's feelings than his own. I tried to clarify that this was not at all what I was about to say, but  there was no interrupting him. I then sat there in resentful, panicked silence, as he ranted loudly and insistently at me. When this got no response, he tried making snide comments about my supposedly unequal housekeeping contributions. I tried not to take this bait , either, but finally I said "Just stop! Stop!" at which point he yelled back "I'M NOT STOPPING. GO SOMEWHERE ELSE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT!" I left the room at this point, and he did not follow me, thankfully.

I know people with rejection sensitivity need an "extra dose of validation", admittedly I failed to give that, this time. I also know he's generally a very good guy, and is more "emotionally dysregulated" than "bad", when he's angry. But must "getting chewed out" be the price I pay for not being superhumanly validating? I am a human being, too. These incidents haunt me for weeks. And it feels like I've been stomped on and been left licking my wounds, while he gets to walk off in with a renewed feeling of strength. I feel violated. Yet also somehow guilty for not having been "validating enough"... .which might have prevented the whole incident.

I think I am a nice person. I am *overly* deferential, if anything, to other people's feelings and needs, and I am not generally the kind of person one needs to verbally bulldoze in order to get one's point across, as he seems to feel he is entitled to do, when he is angry.  I've read every communications book there is. I've initiated counseling with him three times (this last time for more than three years) and I've even tried writing myself songs and mnemonics about how to soothe him, when he is "triggered".  He has made some progress on curtailing his anger, but our knowledge falls away when he becomes confrontational and I panic.  At this point I think we should accept our chemistry, rather than try to swim upstream against it. Maybe some feisty partner would feel more comfortable with his anger, and some more timid person would feel more comfortable with my timidity. I don't know.

But I do know that I hate this. And that it makes me for a really rollercoastery home for our kids, and I hate that I am co-responsible for that.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[once removed]

hi bj_s and

validation is a good tool to have in your toolbox. there are other tools, as well. i think you would do well to have a look to the right of the board under the lessons, and look through the host of tools under "surviving confrontation and disrespect".

validation isnt the same thing as agreeing; you have your own thoughts and feelings, and its okay to voice them (once or twice), its okay to disagree, we just want to avoid JADEing especially when our partners are in a dysregulated state.

how long have the two of you been married?

[bj_s]

Thanks, once removed, I will look at those links. 15 years. The language in those links do a good job describing the strong kind of person it takes to be married to a partner with anger regulation difficulties... .I am not sure  I am that person. I feel like I may be ill-suited to the task, given my own upbringing.

[Radcliff]

Welcome, bj_s!  I'm sorry for the pain you are in, but am glad you have found us.  Many of our members have experience in situations like yours.  You are not alone.  You have put your finger on one of the tough problems many of us face -- how do we handle situations in the best way possible, yet acknowledging that we are human beings with needs of our own?  You mentioned that the therapist you and your husband saw is hoping you can soothe him.  Before I jump into talking about our tools, it'd be helpful to understand where you are coming from.  Can you tell us details about how the therapist was hoping you would handle things?

WW

[bj_s]

Hi Wentworth. Thanks! I think my response to ":)on't you agree?" could have begun with something big that I *do* agree with, as he was in an agitated state with our son, and thus the parts I don't agree with could come out later.

I was not intending to be invalidating, but clearly he had his own vision about what I was about to say. Based on the words he used in reacting to me, it must have sounded like "you are completely wrong and your intent is to humiliate our son, you jerk". It just all happens so fast, and he makes it impossible for me to clarify, as he keeps cutting me off. I think there are people who could do it, though. I've seen his sister do it,  and I've seen the therapist do it. I've done it successfully a couple of times, too. I find it hard to have unconditional validation in my voice when I am caught by surprise and when I our parenting philosophies are so different. I *did* feel uncomfortable about what's happening that moment in our family, and I'm sure that leaked out. Unfortunately when he's agitated, words fail me... .an issue which is something that really bugs me about myself.

I think she also thinks more individual therapy is good, for both of us, and has started seeing us separately, some of the time, using therapies like IFS.  She wants us only to look at *our* parts in what's happening, though, and I feel I need to vent about *his* part much of the time because it feels so awful to me to be spoken to so intensely, and to be berated for twisted versions of the things he assumes I am thinking. It's exasperating and painful.

 

[pearlsw]

Hi bj_s,

I don't understand why our misunderstandings have to be so horrible.

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying here. I grew up in a home where I never saw my parents fight. (I’m not saying there were not issues in their marriage, but thank goodness I was spared seeing fighting. No yelling. Nothing.) So for me having a partner that is so difficult to communicate with, creates a lot of drama, and says such extreme things, has been horrible.

Sometimes I think I have persisted because I can’t quite get my brain around why life has to be this hard and simply want it to work out.…I don’t get why people can’t resolve their problems. It hurts very deeply not to be able too at times.

I notice lately I’m only about half using the tools. I should use them more to head off conflicts. When I am lazy I pay big time. It takes a lot of effort and dedication and I’ll admit I’m at the end of my rope too. But I can say this, internalizing the tools and following them makes a difference, if only in your peace of mind, but often in providing a better response to the difficult things we often hear.

When I look back on my troubles of the last few days I was not being careful enough to not let him feel intense hurt. His intense shame and embarrassment kicked in and then he went over the edge. I could have found better ways to say what I needed to say or chosen not to say them, instead I let some things out that should have been more gently worded.

Some days he will listen to my pain and let me speak because I think deep down he wants to learn and improve, but sometimes it hard for him to hear about his mistakes. And I get that…it’s hard for me to hear what he wants to say about my mistakes. The difference is I don’t make threats. He has always tended to He promises to stop and he always does it again because when he is hurt he will say or do anything to be sure I feel the intensity of his pain.

Like you say you didn’t have to agree, though he framed it that way. Could you have said “I agree” to something though perhaps? With hindsight, or if you were advising a friend, what would have been a preferable response?

warmly, pearl.  

[once removed]

I think my response to ":)on't you agree?" could have begun with something big that I *do* agree with, as he was in an agitated state with our son, and thus the parts I don't agree with could come out later.

this sounds like an SET (support, empathy, truth) approach (more here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0)

SET and the other communication tools can be awkward at first, but with practice they can become a natural response.

I feel I need to vent about *his* part much of the time because it feels so awful to me to be spoken to so intensely, and to be berated for twisted versions of the things he assumes I am thinking. It's exasperating and painful.

it is exasperating and painful  .

its invaluable in these relationships to have a therapist that will challenge us and keep us focused on solutions that are within our control. its also invaluable to have a sounding board, someone who understands how challenging and testing these relationships can be, and can let us be heard. keeping the struggles pent up to ourselves can be really isolating and take its own toll. you have our support here, and we know how anxiety inducing it can be when dealing with a dysregulated partner.

you take both of those things, and consistently take good care of yourself, and youve got the foundation for a support system; dealing with our partners can get better and easier.

[Radcliff]

I think my response to ":)on't you agree?" could have begun with something big that I *do* agree with, as he was in an agitated state with our son, and thus the parts I don't agree with could come out later.

I agree!

What you are talking about here is partial validation, which I've found to be super useful when the fur is flying.  Identify an area of agreement, put the emphasis there, and leave the other stuff until a calmer moment, as you say (at which point you can use SET, as once removed recommends).  Sometimes I've had to stretch a little bit to identify something I can agree with, but even if it's only a small part, it still seems to help.  Partial validation allows you to validate while still being true to yourself.  It may calm things to agree to things that you really don't agree with, but in the long run, this is costly.  It is important not to validate the invalid.  What not to validate is just as important as what to validate when you are learning the validation skill.  If you validate the invalid, you're invalidating yourself (at great cost to you long term) and you also make your validation meaningless if you throw it out regardless of whether something is valid or invalid.

For that specific example, you probably would agree that your son should generally clean up after himself, and that it would have been nice if he had told you.  Did this exchange happen in front of your son, or just the two of you?  Was it going anywhere, such as determining what to say to your son or what consequences might be, or was it just venting out of earshot of him?

WW