I'm afraid to communicate honestly with my mother

[Libra]

Hi all,

I have been lurking for a while now after an initial series of posts. I have read many interesting threads, but I don't feel I can add any useful reactions to them just yet.

I am sorry - this will once again be a very long post... .

I was NC with my mother for 5 months after one of her raging sessions (and inadequate, JADED response on my part).  After 3 sessions with a T where the term borderline tendencies where uttered, and - subsequently - a lot of reading in books and on this board, I reached out to my mother and she responded. We met up and talked – no yelling! When we parted I felt positive because I had remained calm an focused and – I hope – unaffected by FOG or JADE. Some tentative form of contact had been re-initiated.

Our talked started with the classic “it’s all your fault, you don’t treat my correctly, etc…” guilt-loading, but I managed to keep my distance and steer the conversation into more benign waters. I learned a few new things from our collective past:
-   My father had a lover during my mother’s pregnancy and after my birth. He flaunted this openly in front of my mother, was never home, left her to fend for herself with 2 children. As I have not seen or heard my father for more than 20 years, I have no way of verifying this story.
-   My mother had a nervous breakdown 2 weeks after she had brought me home as baby and she had to go back to hospital. Up to now the story had been that it was ME who had to go back to hospital, because I couldn’t keep any food down.
-   When my mother got out of the hospital after the breakdown, she made up her mind that the 2 of us would get through this together. We would make something out of our lives. We would be there for each other. Hence probably the enmeshment I am still struggling with.
-   That is why she had always hoped she would have a fantastic bond with me forever, and she is highly disappointed in our current relationship.
-   She said that she had been to a T, who had confirmed she was ‘fully within her rights’. When I asked her to explain what she meant, she said her T had confirmed that she did not have to take such mistreatment and disrespect from her daughter.
-   I then asked her whether she was prepared to go to a T together,  she hesitated and changed the subject,  but after some soft persistence on my part, she agreed to come along ‘if it might improve your relationship’.

I wrote down our conversation, and my T read it during our next session. He was positive about a few passages where we clearly accommodated for one anothers’  feelings and opinions. He concluded that it would be good to have T together and suggested to set up a session.

So far so good. But then we talked so more….

-We talked about open and honest communication, which – I have to admit – I am not that good at (a lot of conversation takes place in my head before I will actually try to articulate it).
An example: My mother started texting me again shortly after our talk. I always feel pressure to respond immediately, and I always fear that 1 reply will result in a deluge of texts, absorbing far too much of my time and energy. My T then asked me why I couldn’t simply and openly tell her : “Actually mum, I don’t feel up to chatting right now, maybe we could chat later?” I cannot even imagine me telling her that, mainly out of FEAR for her reaction and her possible feelings of rejection. My Ts’ response to this: “Ah, but that is HER problem, not yours. You can only communicate clearly and honestly. How she may possibly react is not in your power to control.” This sounds very correct. But also very harsh, and even dangerous to me. Isn’t that just opening the door to all kinds of unwanted reactions?

- I told him how I often dread my mums visits, because she usually spends the first 15 minutes or so offloading all her pent-up negative emotions and experiences. This usually leaves me completely emotionally drained, which then results in her concluding that I am in a foul mood and that I don't want her there. His response: “You have to learn not to absorb all these emotions as a sponge. Just listen, and validate now and then. She just needs to vent and it is not targeted at you personally.” Again, this sounds correct. But again: easier said than done!

This session with my T has left me very confused: I feel like he placed all the fault / responsibility in my lap. It makes me feel as if I am the cause of all the struggles between my mother and me (as she stated in our last talk, and had corroborated by her T). Maybe I’m actually the messed-up one in this relationship and she is truly a ‘victim’? Or is it my T simply trying to hand me the necessary tools to have a healthier relationship with my mother? Is he deliberately not dwelling on the ‘negative’ stuff, but trying to teach me to stand my ground? Why am I expecting a pat on the shoulder, or some kind of acknowledgement that I am not the main cause of the problem? Or why am I not getting this message from my T?

And then a final story, to end this lengthy post:

Yesterday my mum started a series of texts to ask me what she should buy for my daughters’ birthday. This is an old annoyance of mine: why should I give tips? Mostly they are criticized (either she rejects them beforehand, or she concludes it wasn’t a good idea afterwards because the children don’t react wildly enthusiastic immediately). She knows the children well, why can’t she come up with her own ideas? Is this selfish of me, not wanting to put energy into coming up with ideas for her?
Anyhow, I told her I had no idea, but I would ask my daughter and get back to her. She texted some ideas. I told her I’d mail her a reply in the evening. She reminded me she didn’t have much time to buy something, because she was on holiday most of the coming 1,5 months. This causes me to feel pressure and stress, but also annoyance because WHY should I feel pressured to come up with a gift idea for HER? And then the guilt sets in: I am being selfish, it’s not that much work, etc... So, in the evening I send her some ideas. I actually spend quite some time finding good concrete ideas, checking whether they have them in a store near her, etc… Not even 5 minutes after I’ve sent her the mail, I get a reply back, asking for more details. Grudgingly, I give more info in a reply, and I shut down my computer. This morning, I have a new reply: the shop I specified probably didn’t have that stuff (we’re talking about comics here), they told her that last time?
At this point I have had enough: I tell her – kindly – to go look around a bit, there are many other shops near her that might have one of the many series I specified. That is also what I would have to do. And I ask her to let me know what she’s bought, so we can avoid buying doubles. ;-)
Is this impolite? Is this selfish? Where does that grudging feeling come from? Why am I annoyed when I have to do this for my mum?
In short: at which point am I not thinking clearly anymore? And is this FOG, or is it me making mountains over molehills and overthinking/overreacting?

I would greatly appreciate any objective opinion on this,
Thanks,
A Libra out of balance.

[Turkish]

She groomed you to be responsible for her emotions and feelings from a young age.  So it's understandable that you feel rtis way.  Knowing is the first step.  How to act is what we can support you with.  

I agree with the therapists.  Your mother is an adult capable of buying a birthday present on her own.  With a  emotionally difficult person, less is better in that it makes a smaller target.  "Here is a list of what D wants."

If you haven't seen them, there are some good insights in articles here:  https://bpdfamily.com/portfolio-parent

[Snoopy737]

Hey Libra

Thanks for your story.

Hmm, it's hard to know what your T's idea is of all that. I can only see one way: ask him and tell him how he makes you feel. T's should absolutely be used to that. I mean most Eating Disordered hates their T, so I would give him the questions. He should make you feel better, and personally I only want a T that I like. He or she should really make me feel better and full of courage to battle the hard things. Visiting a T shouldn't be a mind game, where you have to figure our what his intentions are. If he doesn't make you feel good, and I guess you also pay him a lot, I would definitely find another T, maybe a woman.

I've also met T's that maybe wasn't a really T, but they thought so themselves, and the tried to do psychoanalysis on everybody because they felt clever enough. I have really avoided those types of T, and if they were in a shelter where I stayed for a few days, I could take to the other staying there, and they would say the same thing, that he was really weird and to try to go talk with some of the female T's working there instead.

I can't say if it's wrong or right, what you should say to you mother - the I can't chat right now - I mean, if it really troubles you writing her that message, it's because you have a reason to be worried. So a T should definitely help you with that worry, until you feel ready to take the steps you need to take in the long run. But a T should never just drop all responsibility on you. And even if he don't think he has done that, but you feel it like that, it's his problem. I mean does he pay you to understand him? No, right? So he should get into his work-clothes, I think.

(But off the record: sounds like you really don't like him, why don't you just try another? You question yourself when you have talked to him, it sounds like you actually feel worse afterwards? To me it sounds like a no go.)

The venting-thing from you mom the first 10-15 minutes. Oh, I know them both from my sister and my mom when they're all into their feelings and in a bad mood, and I mean: If you're having a great day and nothing can beat you, then yeah maybe listen, but in the Medium Chill way. /try google how you Medium Chill someone). But if you don't have a super day, I really don't think you should be her sponge and listen to all the vent. Especially when it gets you annoyed and down. I mean, the people who went ___, deserve Medium Chill or someone saying No! to them. Of course you shouldn't listen to all that. Your mom came so you could - hopefully - have a good time, so why start it like this? The responsibility lies as much on her as on you.

When my uBPD sister vents in the phone, she really doesn't listen at all. She's 100 % in her feelings, and it's really annoying. Especially when it's more than 15 minutes, and she doesn't listen to a word I say, not even if I say 'Excuse me, I didn't her that, would you please repeat it." One day I said "shut up!" I never say "shut up" to anyone, but it was just to hard. She should tell me if my mom had survived an operation and she only vented at talked about herself in 20 minutes. Oh Boy! I understand why you don't want that! Absolutely!

I've talked to help-lines about my sisters eating disorder, and they also always tell me, that I have to do this and have to do that, because sister has the hard time. But they don't know about the hate and harsh words a BPD will drop on you. I'm at that stage, where I say: I'm her brother, I'm not her psychologist, so I can't and won't act professional every time bc I'm not a pro. I have feelings to, and why should her feelings be more important than mine? Now I say to her what I think, and she gets pretty mad, but guess what, I'm actually feeling better, not eating all that hate anymore.

According to the birthday presents, I first of all thinks that you would be more easily annoyed, because you already have to eat all that from you mom. Then it doesn't become a happy situation either, when she wanna buy your kids presents. Actually, I think most families struggle with all the presents for birthdays and Christmas. I see how it annoys you, but that is one of the few problems that are easier to fix. If my mom said, but I can't find it in the shop, and do I have to go to several shops to look it up?

(first of all, I would think: Yeah, you have to! That's the idea with presents. You go and try really hard to find something nice to this person, because you love him or her. And you write a card. And you wrap it in beautiful gift wrap or a beautiful gift box. And yeah, that takes time. That's the idea. Someone thought of you. I mean in the old times they made their presents themselves. Like in 'Little Women' in the civil war you know. The oold time.)

I would say: Mom, I can hear this is a bit hard to you. Of course you don't know all those comics and toys. If you want, you can give me the money and I buy the comics for you, and you can write a card, and I tell my kid it's from you. (That's how my parents did with my grandparents almost all my childhood.)

And if that isn't good enough. It would just find a link to a website, where the exact product is, and maybe send her 3 links. The she can choose the presents herself from those 3 wishes. And then, to avoid duplicates, I would only give those wishes to mom. Then give other grandparents other wishes. Then we avoid that both giver and takes becomes sad/sorry about doubles.

I wish you all the best. You sound pretty normal. Maybe you just should let some steam out, when people get on your nerves?  Because to me, all your thoughts are understandable. You maybe just miss another adult you can discuss them with in your daily life. Well, then it's good you wrote your story here.

All best, Snoopy

[Libra]

Turkish, thank you for the link. I have been working my way through those pages for a while now. Rationally I mostly get the point, but when I feel pressured, especially by my mom, emotions take over and all that I've read seems to disappear into thin air. I shall continue to read and re-read, and try to practice on my other family members, no harm there... .

Snoopy, thank you for your detailed reply.  It has made me wonder what the prerequisites are for a good T. I have started a new thread for that.

The thing is that my Ts' responses make perfect sense when he's explaining them. I only get stuck when I try to envisage implementing them on my own situation. The nagging worry that keeping more distance or setting up clear boundaries will cause more havoc cause me to freeze. And where do boundaries end and selfishness begin? That one still has me stumped.

I am seeing my T in 2 weeks time, I will do my best to communicate these worries to him, and see what progress he can still help me make.

When my uBPD sister vents in the phone, she really doesn't listen at all. She's 100 % in her feelings, and it's really annoying.

Yes. It's exactly that. She's not even really trying to communicate something, it is pure venting. I like the Medium Chill tip. I think I have been practicing that in general with my mum since we have re-initiated contact. As I still cannot really create clear boundaries at the moment, that seems to be a good solution for the time being. Though I suspect if I keep it up I will be getting another rage session sooner rather than later.

That's the idea with presents. You go and try really hard to find something nice to this person, because you love him or her. And you write a card. And you wrap it in beautiful gift wrap or a beautiful gift box. And yeah, that takes time. That's the idea. Someone thought of you.

The irony is that that's exactly the way she thinks about presents, and she loves shopping! It's just that she doesn't want to take the responsibility of making a choice. Because if the choice then turns out not to be the perfect present, who will be to blame?

I wish you all the best. You sound pretty normal. Maybe you just should let some steam out, when people get on your nerves? wink Because to me, all your thoughts are understandable. You maybe just miss another adult you can discuss them with in your daily life. Well, then it's good you wrote your story here. smiley

Thank you, it helps to know there are others who can relate to my reactions. Sometimes I lose my bearings and then I start to doubt almost everything. Luckily, I can talk to my partner about most of this stuff. Unfortunately, he cannot completely fathom just how big the emotional boulder around my neck sometimes feels. His mum is a very strong, independent woman who knows how to pull her own weight AND how to ask for help when needed... .different upbringing... .

[Harri]

My T then asked me why I couldn’t simply and openly tell her : “Actually mum, I don’t feel up to chatting right now, maybe we could chat later?” I cannot even imagine me telling her that, mainly out of FEAR for her reaction and her possible feelings of rejection. My Ts’ response to this: “Ah, but that is HER problem, not yours. You can only communicate clearly and honestly. How she may possibly react is not in your power to control.” This sounds very correct. But also very harsh, and even dangerous to me. Isn’t that just opening the door to all kinds of unwanted reactions?

What are you afraid she will do?  How is this harsh?  Can you think of a gentler way to say this, while also protecting yourself?

[Libra]

Harri, thank you for reading. In response to your question: I think I am at a point in my life where I really don't feel comfortable talking to my mother. Hence: "why don't we chat later" feels like a promise I can't keep that will eventually be spat back at me if I keep repeating it without actually really chatting with her in between.

When we do chat, I sense 'obligation' popping up almost immediately, and if she asks me any kind of question, I feel panicky and resentful at the same time. It's as if I am starting to SEE for the first time how I bend like a willow any way she wants, but I am - not yet - capable of setting a boundary without it sounding very invalidating for my mother and without it leaving me feeling guilty, even if she doesn't really 'react'.
Does that even make any sense?

An example:
She had been texting me for 2 days for ideas for a birthday present for my daugther, which made me feel anxious and  stressed. My H had already warned me I was putting far too much effort into things that she could manage perfectly herself, before I finally told her to go have a look around in the shops, just like I would have to do.  And even then, in that same mail, I listed the best shops for her!.
I got no more reply - which was what I had been hoping for. And I felt guilty.
I wished her a good holiday the day she left, and I got a very curt 'thank you' as reply (very unlike my mother), and I felt guilty.
She is on holiday for 3 weeks and that gives me blissful relief (no obligations for 3 weeks!), and that relief makes me feel guilty.

I am so tired of feeling guilty, and that then brings on resentment.
I think my mother senses those underlying feelings in our conversations, and that makes her feel 'unwanted', which then leads to her latching on, etc... .
I need to break this cycle, but do not yet know how.
Does the guilt ever disappear? Or do you just learn to live with it?

[Mooberry]

Hi all,

I have been lurking for a while now after an initial series of posts. I have read many interesting threads, but I don't feel I can add any useful reactions to them just yet.

I am sorry - this will once again be a very long post... .

I was NC with my mother for 5 months after one of her raging sessions (and inadequate, JADED response on my part).  After 3 sessions with a T where the term borderline tendencies where uttered, and - subsequently - a lot of reading in books and on this board, I reached out to my mother and she responded. We met up and talked – no yelling! When we parted I felt positive because I had remained calm an focused and – I hope – unaffected by FOG or JADE. Some tentative form of contact had been re-initiated.

Our talked started with the classic “it’s all your fault, you don’t treat my correctly, etc…” guilt-loading, but I managed to keep my distance and steer the conversation into more benign waters. I learned a few new things from our collective past:
-   My father had a lover during my mother’s pregnancy and after my birth. He flaunted this openly in front of my mother, was never home, left her to fend for herself with 2 children. As I have not seen or heard my father for more than 20 years, I have no way of verifying this story.
-   My mother had a nervous breakdown 2 weeks after she had brought me home as baby and she had to go back to hospital. Up to now the story had been that it was ME who had to go back to hospital, because I couldn’t keep any food down.
-   When my mother got out of the hospital after the breakdown, she made up her mind that the 2 of us would get through this together. We would make something out of our lives. We would be there for each other. Hence probably the enmeshment I am still struggling with.
-   That is why she had always hoped she would have a fantastic bond with me forever, and she is highly disappointed in our current relationship.
-   She said that she had been to a T, who had confirmed she was ‘fully within her rights’. When I asked her to explain what she meant, she said her T had confirmed that she did not have to take such mistreatment and disrespect from her daughter.
-   I then asked her whether she was prepared to go to a T together,  she hesitated and changed the subject,  but after some soft persistence on my part, she agreed to come along ‘if it might improve your relationship’.

I wrote down our conversation, and my T read it during our next session. He was positive about a few passages where we clearly accommodated for one anothers’  feelings and opinions. He concluded that it would be good to have T together and suggested to set up a session.

So far so good. But then we talked so more….

-We talked about open and honest communication, which – I have to admit – I am not that good at (a lot of conversation takes place in my head before I will actually try to articulate it).
An example: My mother started texting me again shortly after our talk. I always feel pressure to respond immediately, and I always fear that 1 reply will result in a deluge of texts, absorbing far too much of my time and energy. My T then asked me why I couldn’t simply and openly tell her : “Actually mum, I don’t feel up to chatting right now, maybe we could chat later?” I cannot even imagine me telling her that, mainly out of FEAR for her reaction and her possible feelings of rejection. My Ts’ response to this: “Ah, but that is HER problem, not yours. You can only communicate clearly and honestly. How she may possibly react is not in your power to control.” This sounds very correct. But also very harsh, and even dangerous to me. Isn’t that just opening the door to all kinds of unwanted reactions?

- I told him how I often dread my mums visits, because she usually spends the first 15 minutes or so offloading all her pent-up negative emotions and experiences. This usually leaves me completely emotionally drained, which then results in her concluding that I am in a foul mood and that I don't want her there. His response: “You have to learn not to absorb all these emotions as a sponge. Just listen, and validate now and then. She just needs to vent and it is not targeted at you personally.” Again, this sounds correct. But again: easier said than done!

This session with my T has left me very confused: I feel like he placed all the fault / responsibility in my lap. It makes me feel as if I am the cause of all the struggles between my mother and me (as she stated in our last talk, and had corroborated by her T). Maybe I’m actually the messed-up one in this relationship and she is truly a ‘victim’? Or is it my T simply trying to hand me the necessary tools to have a healthier relationship with my mother? Is he deliberately not dwelling on the ‘negative’ stuff, but trying to teach me to stand my ground? Why am I expecting a pat on the shoulder, or some kind of acknowledgement that I am not the main cause of the problem? Or why am I not getting this message from my T?

And then a final story, to end this lengthy post:

Yesterday my mum started a series of texts to ask me what she should buy for my daughters’ birthday. This is an old annoyance of mine: why should I give tips? Mostly they are criticized (either she rejects them beforehand, or she concludes it wasn’t a good idea afterwards because the children don’t react wildly enthusiastic immediately). She knows the children well, why can’t she come up with her own ideas? Is this selfish of me, not wanting to put energy into coming up with ideas for her?
Anyhow, I told her I had no idea, but I would ask my daughter and get back to her. She texted some ideas. I told her I’d mail her a reply in the evening. She reminded me she didn’t have much time to buy something, because she was on holiday most of the coming 1,5 months. This causes me to feel pressure and stress, but also annoyance because WHY should I feel pressured to come up with a gift idea for HER? And then the guilt sets in: I am being selfish, it’s not that much work, etc... So, in the evening I send her some ideas. I actually spend quite some time finding good concrete ideas, checking whether they have them in a store near her, etc… Not even 5 minutes after I’ve sent her the mail, I get a reply back, asking for more details. Grudgingly, I give more info in a reply, and I shut down my computer. This morning, I have a new reply: the shop I specified probably didn’t have that stuff (we’re talking about comics here), they told her that last time?
At this point I have had enough: I tell her – kindly – to go look around a bit, there are many other shops near her that might have one of the many series I specified. That is also what I would have to do. And I ask her to let me know what she’s bought, so we can avoid buying doubles. ;-)
Is this impolite? Is this selfish? Where does that grudging feeling come from? Why am I annoyed when I have to do this for my mum?
In short: at which point am I not thinking clearly anymore? And is this FOG, or is it me making mountains over molehills and overthinking/overreacting?

I would greatly appreciate any objective opinion on this,
Thanks,
A Libra out of balance.

I feel the same way with my mother.  My mom asks me to do something simple for her, and I react with irritability.  I usually think something like... .After all, doesn't she realize that she ruined my life?  It's years of being guilted into doing things you don't want to do, so doing ANYTHING you don't want becomes a trigger.  At least that's how I've experienced it.

[Harri]

Does the guilt ever disappear? Or do you just learn to live with it?

Guilt does not disappear.  It lessens, usually considerably, as you work on separating or disengaging emotionally from your mother.  It takes times and work. 

When we do chat, I sense 'obligation' popping up almost immediately, and if she asks me any kind of question, I feel panicky and resentful at the same time. It's as if I am starting to SEE for the first time how I bend like a willow any way she wants, but I am - not yet - capable of setting a boundary without it sounding very invalidating for my mother and without it leaving me feeling guilty, even if she doesn't really 'react'.
Does that even make any sense?

Yes, the ability to see how you have changed as she wishes is disturbing yet very good too.  You need to see it so you can change it.  As for invalidating your mom with a boundary, we can work it out here before you try.  I will say though that as long as you align your boundary with your values and do your best, you are not responsible for how she interprets it.  Chances are she will not like it and will push back.  We talk about extinction bursts here.  As you enforce a boundary, they will ramp up their behaviors and try to get you to go back to normal.  So you have to start with a boundary you can handle and enforce consistently, otherwise her behavior will only get worse.  Are you familiar with our articles on boundaries, extinction bursts and intermittent reinforcement and validation?

It will take some learning and practice to be able to set a boundary and to detach from your mom emotionally.  that is why you are in T (and that is a lot of what your T is talking about that you shared in your other thread)  That is also why you stopped lurking and decided to start posting!   

We can help you with this.

[Libra]

It's years of being guilted into doing things you don't want to do, so doing ANYTHING you don't want becomes a trigger. At least that's how I've experienced it.

Mooberry, yes, that is essentially it.
Also, I seem to have lost perspective. I think I need to take a step back and calmly assess every new interaction. I need to take time to interpret instead of pressuring myself into complying as quickly as possible, because that often results in miscommunication and frustrations on both sides.

It takes times and work.

Harri, you have repeated this often. Thank you. I am starting to understand it. 
This board has been a catalyst for me to start thinking beyond my feelings. I can now see that it is better to interpret feelings and think about what causes them. I have a tendency to ‘just get on with it’ and to burry myself in day-to-day life instead of facing difficult feelings and working through them, which is understandable, because that is how my parents have always dealt with emotions. And it explains why therapy feels so uncomfortable.

I will say though that as long as you align your boundary with your values and do your best, you are not responsible for how she interprets it.

I guess the first step for me will be to clearly define my own values, irrespective of expectations from others. It is quite impossible to set boundaries if the values they are based upon shift depending on the breeze. Or does it work the other way around? Chicken or egg?

Are you familiar with our articles on boundaries, extinction bursts and intermittent reinforcement and validation?

I have read some of the materials here, though I don’t think I have read a lot about intermittent reinforcement and validation. I will read and re-read.

It will take some learning and practice to be able to set a boundary and to detach from your mom emotionally

I am now trying the Medium Chill: not getting emotionally involved in her messages, and not sharing more than niceties and chitchat. It takes a lot of focus at the moment for me to do this, so I will practice this for a while and see how that might influence our interactions.

Thank you again for reading and sharing,
Libra. 

[Notwendy]

This session with my T has left me very confused: I feel like he placed all the fault / responsibility in my lap. It makes me feel as if I am the cause of all the struggles between my mother and me (as she stated in our last talk, and had corroborated by her T).


I also found this kind of message to be very triggering- and I received it from both a T and a sponsor in 12 step co-dependency and ACA groups. ( although these groups originated with alcoholic families, the dynamics in both alcohol and families with dysfunction like BPD are similar and I find them helpful). When I heard them, I was angry and upset. My mother has blamed me for the issues between us and also painted me black to other relatives including my father and convinced them that I was the problem. This seemed so unfair since her behavior is more disordered.

Once I was able to get past this feeling and trust that my sponsor and T had my best interest, I could see their reasoning. Since I was the one who was aware of the issues ( mom uses projection and denial), and I was the only one motivated to change things, it made sense to work on me. My mother wasn't asking the T to please help her change and she has been resistant to therapy. I am the one who was seeking something different. The principle- we can only change ourselves, not someone else holds true here. In addition, your T recognizes that if you are the motivated one, and have the capacity to change- then it only makes sense to work on you.

Are we responsible for our mother's behavior? No, but do we add to the drama and dynamics? Most likely, even though we don't have BPD. When a child grows up in a disordered family, the child learns disordered relationship skills that are functional in that relationship ( the child depends on the parents and has to survive in the family). Families tend to "balance" each other. If there is a disordered family member, often the other members take on behaviors like enabling  and WOE to keep the order. For a child who doesn't know what "normal" is, these behaviors seem normal to them. However ,with others outside the family,these behaviors can impact other relationships and cause issues.

What's good is that we can learn. If we learned disordered behaviors- we can also unlearn them and learn new ones. This was motivating to me. I no longer felt I was being blamed but that I was given an opportunity to learn new relationship skills that would help me with my mother and also my other relationships. It could break the cycle of disordered behaviors that were likely intergenerational in my family.

A term for these behaviors growing up with a BPD parent is "fleas". Once my goal was to get rid of them, it became an exciting opportunity. It takes time and work - we make mistakes along the way, and we continuously learn, but the work is worth it.

[Panda39]

... .I learned a few new things from our collective past:
-   My father had a lover during my mother’s pregnancy and after my birth. He flaunted this openly in front of my mother, was never home, left her to fend for herself with 2 children. As I have not seen or heard my father for more than 20 years, I have no way of verifying this story.
-   My mother had a nervous breakdown 2 weeks after she had brought me home as baby and she had to go back to hospital. Up to now the story had been that it was ME who had to go back to hospital, because I couldn’t keep any food down.
-   When my mother got out of the hospital after the breakdown, she made up her mind that the 2 of us would get through this together. We would make something out of our lives. We would be there for each other. Hence probably the enmeshment I am still struggling with.
-   That is why she had always hoped she would have a fantastic bond with me forever, and she is highly disappointed in our current relationship.
-   She said that she had been to a T, who had confirmed she was ‘fully within her rights’. When I asked her to explain what she meant, she said her T had confirmed that she did not have to take such mistreatment and disrespect from her daughter.
-   I then asked her whether she was prepared to go to a T together,  she hesitated and changed the subject,  but after some soft persistence on my part, she agreed to come along ‘if it might improve your relationship’.

Every bit of the above might be true, but it is also FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) very subtle and all wrapped up in family stories but designed to make you responsible for her feelings and to keep you enmeshed with her.

Yes, she may have experienced the things she talks about around your birth with your father, and you can certainly feel compassion for her... .but there is an underlying message there... .1) your father is an awful person stay away from him and don't let your father come between us. (None of us know if your mom's story is true and we most certainly don't know your dad's reason for leaving)  2) I took care of you when he left us and you owe me for that care (you owe her nothing she was the adult you were the child) 3) Her idea of a fantastic bond is enmeshment... .you become an extension of her and she doesn't allow you to be your own separate person.

It will be interesting to see how a joint Therapy session with your mom goes.

So far so good. But then we talked so more….

My T then asked me why I couldn’t simply and openly tell her : “Actually mum, I don’t feel up to chatting right now, maybe we could chat later?” I cannot even imagine me telling her that, mainly out of FEAR for her reaction and her possible feelings of rejection. My Ts’ response to this: “Ah, but that is HER problem, not yours. You can only communicate clearly and honestly. How she may possibly react is not in your power to control.” This sounds very correct. But also very harsh, and even dangerous to me. Isn’t that just opening the door to all kinds of unwanted reactions?

Your therapist is right here your mom's reaction is her reaction but I get that doing this feels like too much to you now. It sound like you just want to get the call over with rather than postpone it... .maybe another option (a small step between what you've always done and what your therapist is suggesting) would be to set a time boundary, keep the call short 15 minutes or so and tell her you have an appointment, or your heading out the grocery store, or you have a friend coming over and you have to go.

- I told him how I often dread my mums visits, because she usually spends the first 15 minutes or so offloading all her pent-up negative emotions and experiences. This usually leaves me completely emotionally drained, which then results in her concluding that I am in a foul mood and that I don't want her there. His response: “You have to learn not to absorb all these emotions as a sponge. Just listen, and validate now and then. She just needs to vent and it is not targeted at you personally.” Again, this sounds correct. But again: easier said than done!

I've actually done something like this with my mother it's like I'm having the conversation with her but I am also observing the conversation like I would if I was sitting on a park bench watching strangers having a conversation.  It helps me to see the dynamic between us and more easily see what are her issues and what are mine.  It creates a distance that helps me not take things so personally.

This session with my T has left me very confused: I feel like he placed all the fault / responsibility in my lap. It makes me feel as if I am the cause of all the struggles between my mother and me (as she stated in our last talk, and had corroborated by her T). Maybe I’m actually the messed-up one in this relationship and she is truly a ‘victim’? Or is it my T simply trying to hand me the necessary tools to have a healthier relationship with my mother? Is he deliberately not dwelling on the ‘negative’ stuff, but trying to teach me to stand my ground? Why am I expecting a pat on the shoulder, or some kind of acknowledgement that I am not the main cause of the problem? Or why am I not getting this message from my T?

Who are the only people we truly control? We can only truly control ourselves, our actions, our feelings, our behaviors.  It takes 2 to tango in any relationship but you can't make your mom do, think, feel anything she doesn't want to.  So you are left with changing your own behaviors and reactions and in doing so you change the dance or you sit out the dance. 

What I'm hearing from you is that Therapy has been challenging and maybe not what you expected it to be and you are adjusting to it.  Therapy is for us to process our stuff, to learn new skills, to get different perspectives on things and hopefully effect change in our own lives. 

Is this impolite? Is this selfish? Where does that grudging feeling come from? Why am I annoyed when I have to do this for my mum?

You are not being impolite or selfish expecting a grown woman to figure out on her own how to buy a birthday gift for her granddaughter. 


Hang in there Libra, it's a journey and your just at the very start and I'm glad you've landed here so you can have some company along the way.   

Push through the awkwardness of the therapy, and stick with it, you are undoing a life time of stuff you've learned and it will take time to undo.

Panda39

[Notwendy]

Why am I annoyed when I have to do this for my mum?

Good pick up and listen to your annoying feeling. Our feelings tell us something and we tend to not pay attention to them as much as we do the feelings of the pwBPD in our lives.

You feel this way when you are being enlisted as a caretaker. Caretaking is when we are being asked to do something for a person that we know they can do ourselves. (It is not the same as caregiving for someone who needs the help like a child or an elderly person). My BPD mother does this a lot with me- asks me to do something she can do herself. I am not sure why she does this but I think it fills some kind of emotional need to be taken care of. I can sense this because I feel "icky" when she does it, and even "ickier" when I actually do it. She also does this when she wants to shift responsibility to me about a purchase or decision. " well Notwendy told me to do it".

She's asked me many times what to give her grandkids for birthdays and fair enough, she doesn't know them well. Also by the teen years it helps to know what the teen wants. ( and they can be particular). The way I can tell the difference between a sincere request and being enlisted is often how I feel.

My mother has called me selfish. In her world, thinking of my needs, not hers is "selfish" but is isn't.

I liked Bishop Michael Curry's sermon at the royal wedding about love- as he added "and while you are at it  love yourself. " I think we children of BPD parents tend to forget this, but to truly care for others, we have to love ourselves. You are not being selfish to honor your feeling of annoyance and have boundaries about doing things for others that they can do themselves.

[alphabeta]

Dear Libra,

I've had the same experiences as you with my mother. 

If I tell her that I am not ready to talk about certain topics, she tells me how insensitive I am and either rages against me (I am cold or cruel) or gives me a guilt trip of how lonely she is and how neglected she feels by me and when she was a child.

What your therapist tells you about hearing but not listening to your mother's 15 minute monologues, I can tell you that this tactic has resulted in nothing but negative consequences -- again she feels insulted that I am insensitive to her needs.

Perhaps you and your mother should go to therapy together (it wasn't clear to me if you had).  That way, he can perhaps see what it right for both of you.

[Libra]

Hi Alhpabeta,

I am sorry that you are facing similar difficulties in your relationship with your mother. That is not a good place to be in. 

I realize that the low contact, medium chill relationship is not at all what my mum is seeking. I realize that another raging and blaming session is sure to follow. That makes it hard to persist with the emotional distance. But I actually feel better and emotionally safer this way. I am starting to understand that my own wellbeing should be my first motivator. I am also learning to accept that my mother is who she is. I cannot change the way she feels, thinks or reacts. I can only change my own behavior. So I am trying to stay out of any drama of hers.
 
Low contact or boundaries are sure to instigate a reaction. I have read about extinction bursts here. As Harri specified in this thread:

Chances are she will not like it and will push back.  We talk about extinction bursts here.  As you enforce a boundary, they will ramp up their behaviors and try to get you to go back to normal.  So you have to start with a boundary you can handle and enforce consistently, otherwise her behavior will only get worse.

I expect I may be facing that in the near future. But – with the support of my DH and the guidance of my T and this board - I will try to stand my ground. If she has problems with me keeping a healthy distance, it is her problem, not mine. I am her daughter, yes. But I am not her caretaker. I am not her therapist. And I am no longer willing to be her emotional dumping ground. I still hope that we will come out of this with a healthier relationship for both parties. But I realize that will also depend on her reaction. If she chooses to walk away, that will really hurt, but I cannot stop her. All I can do is leave my door open and remain patient and steadfast.

That’s the theory. That’s what I keep telling myself. I hope it will stick someday.

I have had many more downs than ups since the beginning of this year. I have been overwhelmed by guilt, I have been mourning the profoundly lonely child I realize I was, I have been very angry. I have also been struggling to accept my own responsibility: it really does take two to tango. I have to learn how to stand up for myself and my own values and I have to learn how to communicate these values in a healthy way. I do not want to go back to the way it was. I cannot yet clearly see the road ahead, nor where that may lead, but I want to move forward now.

Do you have other family members you can talk to? Do you have support from your wife, a friend, other family members? It can be very helpful to have someone close to you to support you.

I can also advise you to read as much as you can, here on the board and also all the information about FOG, JADE, validation, boundaries, etc... .and try to implement this in your own life. That is what I am trying to do.


Harri, Notwendy and Panda39, thank you for your replies. They are clear and encouraging, though it sounds quite daunting if you say this is only the beginning of a long journey.


 

[Notwendy]

There is no way I would go to therapy with my BPD mother. BPD exists on a spectrum, and my mother is severe. Her levels of denial and projection are so strong that she does not assimilate behavior issues or connect them to her actions. After she disassociates, she seems to have no memory of what she said or did- almost as if her brain has reset itself. She seems to stay in victim mode- lashing out at people close to her for her assumed wrongs. Even things that have no harmful intent- she assumes they do. Maybe others have less affected BPD parents who may be able to be helped by therapy but mine is not. She is not motivated to get help because she truly believes she is fine and if there are any problems, or she feels bad, it is someone else's fault. I watched my father do everything in his power to help her. She got the best of psychiatric care. None of it worked.

Because she and my father presented her to me as a "normal" mother, I tried to relate to her as a mother. However, turning to her as a child would to a mother mostly resulted in me being let down or criticized for daring to have that expectation of her. The relationship is one way. To her, I exist only to meet her needs. There is no "me", just what I can do for her. I don't believe my father felt like that, but to keep the peace I had to comply with her wishes and if I said anything about her behavior it was denied and/or I was punished.

Yes, it is a long journey but the path to emotional growth is worth it. At some point along the way, I had to let go of my sadness for not having the mother I wished for, or thought I had, but the mother I have. She is severely mentally ill and resistant to treatment. I still have contact with her but I don't choose to share personal info. It isn't sharing. She pushes me to give her info and it doesn't feel like the is interested but pushing for something she can use- to relate to others. When she calls, I listen, try to validate, and use the tools on this board. It's a relief to not feel the anger and resentment over her not being something she just wasn't made to be. I feel sorry for her. In an ordinary situation, I would be closer to my elderly mother and although I wish I could be, she isn't someone who is capable of having the kind of relationship I wish I had with her. I am compassionate, and do care about her welfare, but also realize that there are limits to her capacity to have a relationship.

I do know this- as an adult, I have the right to choose relationships with people who are emotionally healthy and with whom I can have a meaningful connection to. She may believe that my purpose is to serve her needs but that isn't my purpose as an individual on this planet. She may not like it, but I am not obligated to make her happy. I do feel obligated to be kind and treat others respectfully.This also includes myself- I do not have to allow others to be abusive to me.

[Harri]

Libra!  You've got this.  And we've got your back.
 

I realize that another raging and blaming session is sure to follow. That makes it hard to persist with the emotional distance. But I actually feel better and emotionally safer this way. I am starting to understand that my own wellbeing should be my first motivator. I am also learning to accept that my mother is who she is. I cannot change the way she feels, thinks or reacts. I can only change my own behavior. So I am trying to stay out of any drama of hers.I expect I may be facing that in the near future. But – with the support of my DH and the guidance of my T and this board - I will try to stand my ground. If she has problems with me keeping a healthy distance, it is her problem, not mine. I am her daughter, yes. But I am not her caretaker. I am not her therapist. And I am no longer willing to be her emotional dumping ground. I still hope that we will come out of this with a healthier relationship for both parties. But I realize that will also depend on her reaction. If she chooses to walk away, that will really hurt, but I cannot stop her. All I can do is leave my door open and remain patient and steadfast.

Remember this.  Mark this post of yours down somewhere so if you need a reminder, you have it handy.  Yes, yes, yes!

Notwendy and Panda shared some excellent information here.  Listen to them, think about it, let it roll around in your head and remember it.

Just in case you can't tell, I am cheering you on! 

I do not want to go back to the way it was.  I cannot yet clearly see the road ahead, nor where that may lead, but I want to move forward now.

  Exciting isn't it?    You get to choose how to look at this too.  If you are nervous or scared, that's okay.  Feel it, acknowledge it and then tell it to be quiet you have work to do! 

Practice visualization where your moms anger and her words bounce off of you (I used a bubble image surrounding me) if she goes off on you.  If she makes accusations, nasty comments, blames, etc, remind yourself about projection.  Use validation, but never validate the invalid.  Practice these techniques with others and then it won't be new when you do so with your mom.  Practice saying stuff out loud so you can hear yourself saying it and it will sound more natural and come easier in times of stress.  We are not looking for perfection so no worries if it takes a few times to get setting boundaries right or to say no without feeling weak in the knees (I used to get sick).  It gets better.  Don't forget about extinction bursts and how important it is to stick to whatever boundary you set.  That is going to take being consistent in yourself and holding on to your values regardless of what your mother may say do or threaten.

Earlier you mentioned needing to figure out your values.  I think that is common for a lot of us who grew up with BPD parents.  Our values were all about our parent.  They had to be.  So yeah, spend some time thinking about your values.  You asked chicken or egg... .and I have to say I do not know.  I am still figuring out my values!  I know what is important to me and I know what I will and will not tolerate so I have been doing things backwards.  Whatever works, right? 

Panda talked about setting smaller boundaries like limiting calls to 15 minutes.  Yep, that is excellent advice and certainly an easier target.  Make this work for you.  Are you familiar with the Karpman Drama Triangle?  Notwendy is an expert with that!

Keep up the great work Libra. 

[alphabeta]

Dear Libra,

The LC and medium chill approaches might be one way to explore the relationships with our mothers.

I have been reading a book called ":)isarming the Narcissist" by Wendy Behary.  She suggests a three pronged approach to maintaining a relationship with NPD -- BPD is not mentioned, yet it seems that NPD and BPD individuals have very similar traits:

The approach is to regain trust with the NPD individual by:

-Feeling understood by them.

-Figuring out how to express what we need to feel safe.

-Being able to acknowledge the NPD individual's ability to change.

The key thing is that the NPD individual is willing and able to understand us and change.  This can be accomplished with help of a therapist.

Also, what we need to do is express our need to improve the relationship with that person -- we have been hurt, and likely they have too, and that in order to move forward, we need to take responsibility of how we're interacting with the other people.

I may be misinterpreting or missing some aspects of Dr. Behary's book, so it may be worthwhile to read it.

Dr. Behary seems to paint this approach as a win-win situation.  Perhaps it's much easier sad than done, and it may be a possible approach if you want a alternative to a medium chill/LC relationship.

I wish you the best.