Does love prevail?

[Wicker Man]

I believe there is a curative quality to love.  A loving and stable home can create fertile ground for healing.  I knew from the very beginning of our relationship my ex was in a lot of pain, but I was willing to accept this for she also had immense inner beauty.  In my heart I had hoped through my patients, love and consistency the good in her would prevail.  

I have good sense of self and could allow her rage to wash around me, I would listen for her message and let the vitriol fall away.  There was some success, she had stopped cutting herself, she stopped hearing voices and she seemed more at ease.  I was happy for her and felt a lot of pride in being able to bring her some level of peace.

Our relationship was always quite good when we were in each other's presence -if we were apart her rage would begin almost immediately.  Keep in mind, I now believe I left during the twilight of the idealization phase -so I likely have a rosier view than others in BPD relationships.  I didn't feel the full brunt of the disorder.

I was counting on the Chinese cultural importance of family, as well as the support we were getting from her extended family.  I knew it was a high risk venture, but I adored her.  

It was the realization, whether true or not, she would one day leave which necessitated me ending our relationship.  I am a romantic -Amor Vincit Omnia!  --However this theory only works if both parties have the wherewithal to remain in the relationship -I was mortally afraid she did not.

Our ideas of romanic love come from literature, TV and movies -as someone posted earlier in this thread.  My pride is hurt because I fell victim to these idea of fairytale love... .My pride is hurt because I am one of the people who help create and perpetuate these ideas... .I make TV commercials and movies.  I blinded myself and fell victim to the very propagandist ideas of love I have been using as a sales tool for 25 years.  --love is blind.

During the mirroring and idealization phase her adoration played on my ego and arrogance.  She said lovely things about me, and I could not help but agree.  I do not believe was any malicious intent or agenda on her part -she believed everything she said in that moment.  This is, to my understanding, her nature.  When she loves it is with immense passion and she is equally passionate in her hatred -both are equally real to her in the moment.

The statements 'You are my knight in shining armor, you are my whole world' were absolutely true in the moment as were the horrendous things she said.

'Errare humanum est, sed perseverare diabolicum': To error is human, but to persist out of pride is diabolical.  --Through pride, hubris and a childish view of love I was trapping myself into a very dangerous relationship.

In the span on a year I think we covered all the 7 deadly sins (pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth) it made for one hell of a year emotionally.

I still believe love can prevail but it has to be a healthy love not a childish love  'if I care for you the way I want to be loved -then you will love me that way too'


Wicker Man

[southside420]

I think it does with two normal people, but it seems like "love" for someone with BPD is much different than a normal person. For my ex, love seemed to be getting her way and constant validation. It never involved her showing she cared for me or my feelings. She managed to apologize to me after all the stuff she did, but after a month of "trying things," she ended up sleeping with someone else and blamed me for not committing hard enough. She did not ever consider how I would feel if she did it. She did it for herself, as she does with all things.

[Wicker Man]

It never involved her showing she cared for me or my feelings.

My experience was less polarized.  As an example I was working in a different city from my ex and she would order dinner to be delivered to my room every night and then watch me eat it via video chat.  To be clear we were in the PRC and I don't read Chinese, so she was doing something for me I could not do myself.  This was not controlling of her -just sweet. 

There are countless examples of care and love to a level which I had not experienced in previous relationships when she loved me she did it with every ounce of her being.

--We shared incredible tenderness and love when she was not raging.  When the rage came, as it often did when we were apart, she showed no compassion whatsoever.  There was none in her in these moments.  Her emotions were binary, black and white, on or off.

This is why I did not believe we had a future.  When she was in a rage there was no conversation, no room for maneuver, no hope and no love.

BPD is such a dreadful condition.


Wicker Man

[Starfire]

I absolutely thought I could love him through it.  I came to understand that I probably could have.  The problem was that I couldn't love ME through it.  I had to become a totally different kind of person and sacrifice too much.

[Harley Quinn]

The problem was that I couldn't love ME through it. 

That's the crux of it I found.  It's possible to love someone else endlessly and go to hell and back with them through all the crises and chaos, but in that process with my BPDbf I was neglecting myself - even the most basic needs like sleep and food - and becoming a shell of the person I was.  I truly believe this man would have been the death of me, one way or another.  Love cannot prevail over that.  Really good insight Starfire. 

Love and light x

[Wicker Man]

That's the crux of it I found.  It's possible to love someone else endlessly and go to hell and back with them through all the crises and chaos

I was willing to give everything and to take the journey though all of the crisis and chaos, but in the end I felt the journey was not to hell and back, but a one way trip to hell.

It is remarkably difficult to love someone completely  --to be ready to support and be supported.  To want want to walk hand in hand through life, to then realize the one you loved so dearly has no self love.  There is no 'I' when they say 'I love you'.  Without a sense of self there can be no love, only consumption, dysfunction and pain. 

Ultimately love for myself necessitated ending my relationship with her -self preservation.

So in an ironic sense I guess I need to change my answer --Yes! Love must prevail.  Love for self.


Wicker Man

[Lucky Jim]

Without a sense of self there can be no love, only consumption, dysfunction and pain. 

Ultimately love for myself necessitated ending my relationship with her -self preservation.

So in an ironic sense I guess I need to change my answer --Yes! Love must prevail.  Love for self.

Nicely said, Wicker Man.  Self-love, I agree, is key.  Sad to say, I did't practice it when married to my BPDxW and nearly destroyed myself in the process.  Yes, it is about self-preservation.

LJ

[Wicker Man]

self-preservation.

For myself, as a codependent, I was brought up to be selfless.  I was raised to  believe love meant sacrifice.  '... .for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health'.  We are programmed from childhood to believe when the going gets tough the tough get going.

What they fail to mention is this... .  Following this doctrine can lead to immolation.  It is very difficult to reconcile my need for self preservation.  This is where therapy becomes vital for me. 

I had to, out of self preservation, end my relationship with her.  In other words my needs became more important than hers --this is not how love is supposed to go... . 

I had to 'throw her to the wolves' to save my own skin.  Sadly, the wolves which will tear her shred from shred live in her mind.  This is, in my opinion, the sheer tragedy of BPD.  What she needs most of all is the very thing her disorder can not allow to thrive --trust and love.

Wicker Man

[Lucky Jim]

Agree, WM, which is why I started a recent discussion on the Learning Board entitled "When Does Commitment Become Unhealthy in a BPD r/s."  The bottom line is that, notwithstanding one's marriage vows, it's dangerous when one is committed to a BPD r/s "at all costs," because it opens the door to abuse and other harmful outcomes.  Self-love, as you suggest, is the antidote to self-sacrifice.  It involves being willing to risk losing the r/s, which is a daunting prospect for many (It sure scared me).

LuckyJim

[Wicker Man]

It involves being willing to risk losing the r/s, which is a daunting prospect for many (It sure scared me).

-Lucky Jim

':)aunting' is a good word.  I left my schedule 1 drug... .I mean undiagnosed BPD fiancé during the twilight of the idealization phase.  So when we parted ways the relationship was still far more good than bad.  Far more adoration than rage.

Even as a dyed in the wool codependent I was lucky enough to have retained a good sense of self and with that a sense of self preservation.  I have never felt I deserved abuse I have always felt I deserve love.  -I am currently exploring validation and codependency in therapy.

--Amor Vincit Omnia had been the battle cry!  I truly wanted to believe I could love my fiancé to recovery.  I was fortunate to have had an epiphany at the end of her final and worst rage. I woke up at 3am and sat bolt upright in the dark --realizing 'She will leave me one day and there is nothing I could do to alter this'. 

At this point as painful as it was I knew there was but one course of action.  She actually helped me enormously.  In the passion of her rage she broke up with me first -all I had to do was agree.  She had confirmed my worst fear, all I had to do was face reality... .I sometimes I really hate reality... .

In my opinion Love can prevail --but it takes two people both with a strong sense of self, commitment, a lot of hard work and just a little bit of luck.


Wicker Man

[Shawnlam]

Wickerman you left during the idealization phase? How sir were you that strong to do such a thing? I would never have been able to pull that off.

[Wicker Man]

Wickerman you left during the idealization phase? How sir were you that strong to do such a thing? I would never have been able to pull that off.

There are a lot of extenuating circumstances.  'Strength' is not a word which immediately comes to mind.  Through these extenuating circumstances I had a premonition of impending doom.  Love can prevail, but it dawned on me our love was mortally flawed --if it were to have continued it would have meant the end of life as I know it. 

Perhaps this is a discussion for a different time and place.   More of a 'Learning' sort of a discussion.


Wicker Man

[Skip]

Surviving a Break-up when Your Partner has Borderline Personality

Ten Beliefs That Can Get You Stuck
Breaking up with a “BPD” partner is often difficult because we do not have a valid understanding of the disorder or our part in the “loaded” relationship bond. As a result we often misinterpret our partners' actions and some of our own. Many of us struggle with some of the following false beliefs.

4) Belief that love can prevail

Once these relationships seriously rupture, they are harder to repair than most – many wounds that existed before the relationship have been opened. Of course you have a lot invested in this relationship and your partner has been an integral part of your dreams and hopes - but there are greater forces at play now. For you, significant emotional wounds have been inflicted upon an already wounded soul. To revitalize your end of the relationship, you would need to recover from your wounds and emerge as an informed and loving caretaker – it’s not a simple journey. You need compassion and validation to heal - something your partner most likely won’t understand – and you can’t provide for yourself right now. For your partner, there are longstanding and painful fears, trust issues, and resentments that have been triggered. Your partner is coping by blaming much of it on you. For your partner to revitalize their end of the relationship, they would need to understand and face their wounds and emerge very self-aware and mindful. This is likely an even greater challenge than you face.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

When this article was written, the idea that "love can prevail" was presented as one of the ways we get stuck after our "BPD relationship" has crashed. In this context I was trying to make the point that many believe that the incredible love that we felt in the idealization phase (honeymoon stage) is so powerful that it can overcome all the dysfunction by all parties, all the damage, possibly even BPD. A thought many have as they sit alone and hurt and look back at the months/years of problems that followed that initial period.

In reading this very thoughtful discussion, I thought I'd share more about the message behind the massage. I was thinking that the development of a love that prevail is a journey in which the love conquers adversity over time. At first small adversity and the greater adversity. It is is the process that love gains the strength to overcome.

"The honeymoon" and the idealization associated with these relationships are powerful, but often not one that systematically prevails over adversity over time. It most cases, the strength of the love diminishes over time rather than strengthens. At the end, there is no power to prevail.

[Wicker Man]

In my case we had made some progress -love seemed curative.  Through my patients, active listening and creating boundaries she had appeared to have some level of healing.  She had stopped cutting herself and the voices she heard under duress had ceased, further we had both stopped drinking. (BPD+alcohol=BAD)  Our relationship had begun to show promise.

It most cases, the strength of the love diminishes over time rather than strengthens. At the end, there is no power to prevail.

It was during her final rage when it occurred to me she would have very likely over time become 'tolerant' of my love.  The curative effect of my love would have lessened over time and (presumably) her dysfunction would have come roaring back.  Perhaps it would have taken months or even years, but it seemed inevitable.

I had hoped my efforts, in combination with the support of her extended family and friends, may have been enough to give us the foundation of a sustainable, nurturing and loving relationship.  However, after a year of my influence and care her final rage was relentless, unforgiving and of the worst magnitude.

Cromwell reminded me on a quote "To error is human, to continue to do so out of pride is diabolical".

I feel very badly for her as well as her family, but out of self preservation I removed myself.


Wicker Man

[Skip]

Cromwell reminded me on a quote "To error is human, to continue to do so out of pride is diabolical".

"Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum” —Lucius Annaeus Seneca, 4 bc"   

most us still don't get it, 2,000+ years later.

I feel very badly for her as well as her family, but out of self preservation I removed myself.

Good mental health is making hard decisions. I know that leaving my relationship was a very hard - walking away from someone you truly love is.

[Wicker Man]

"Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum” —Lucius Annaeus Seneca, 4 bc"   

most us still don't get it, 2,000+ years later.

So what you are telling me here is learn history or be doomed to repeat it... .and Lucius likely dated someone with BPD... . 

Thank you for the smile.

Wicker Man