Ex (co-parent) is unraveling

[momtara]

Hi all. I haven't been on this board in a while, but you were all so helpful in the past. My ex is borderline and sees a therapist. Our marriage ended about 5 years ago when he had a particularly controlling weekend and wouldn't let me take our babies to the park, threatened to say I was abusing them, and other stuff. I got a restraining order because he raged at me all night long and I couldn't leave. Eventually I dropped it in exchange for a custody agreement, some visitation, etc. We got divorced. He was apologetic and said his shrink said he was bipolar, etc., etc., wanted to get back together. But then the rages would happen again during the divorce. Ultimately I stuck with it. I have majority custody and he takes the kids to his parents' house every other weekend.

He has long periods when we get along just fine and collaborate, and then he gets triggered by something (I don't always know what) and downslides. It makes me nervous. He has in the past argued when he came to pick up the kids and stuff, which scared them.

Two years ago we got a new PC who was pretty good. Things were working for a while. Two months ago he started getting angry at me again. Calling during work, sending angry texts. Tonight he called to arguing about something our kids said (they're now around 8) saying their comment, which he didn't like, was my fault, etc.

I don't really care if he harasses me -- although it upsets the kids, of course. What makes me nervous is that someday he might hurt them.

Part of his new months of anger, I think, come from abandonment. His parents have been going away on trips (and he's temporarily stopped taking the kids) and I think he just broke up with a long distance GF. I don't date because I'm afraid it could further trigger him if he found out, but he probably wouldn't know, anyway. He has in the past said he wanted to get back together.

Recently I told our PC about all the yelling calls and texts, and the unraveling. I asked her to speak with his therapist. His shrink routinely sends our PC updates saying he's complying with treatment, but nothing else. I wasn't sure his shrink knows he's unraveling. SO I thought maybe the shrink could work on his anger and how he directs it toward me.

But tonight he called AGAIN to yell at me about stuff, again. Even with our PC having talked to his shrink about the situation. I don't know if he saw his shrink or not yet.

About 2 weeks ago, my PC suggested that the next step is to handle it legally if he keeps calling and texting. However, legally, all I could do is stop him from calling and harassing me. That wouldn't protect the kids.

My PC feels that his behaviors are kind of cyclical so even though it's frustrating, it's probably not unexpected. Still, it does intimidate me. Usually eventually he calms down if I don't enrage him further, so I tiptoe.

I usually don't take angry calls, but this time I did because it was when he was supposed to call them. I didn't want to be accused of not taking a call meant for them.

Should I be worried? Try to do anything besides clue in our PC? I don't know when he's next taking the kids and hopefully he'll calm down by then, but I still get worried because they are starting to hear his calls and behavior. And because no matter what, even if I don't take the calls, he's still angry and can't seem to quell his anger in appropriate ways. I don't want ultimately to put the kids in harm's way. Wondering what else to do. I don't think there's enough there for supervised visits.

[AnuDay]

You have to set up some boundaries.  With my ex there are no calls after a certain time (around 10pm).  All calls are preceded by a text message identifying the intent of the call.  You really have to manage your communication with them.  Limit the amount of time that you talk.  Perhaps in your case eliminate calls altogether.  Just communicate by text and email.  That's what I had to do last year.  Otherwise you get into reactionary mode where they say something highly offensive and you instantly react because you're talking over the phone.  With texts I choose when and how I respond. Sometimes I wouldn't respond to a text for over 12 hours.  I still do this. 

[momtara]

Yes, I will have to send an email reminding him of boundaries. He knows of them but maybe i have to reiterate. Don't know if that will stop him though.

This morning he called 7 times in 10 minutes. I didn't take the call, but how intimidating. Then he texted to ask if he could take the kids, even though he said he wasn't taking them this weekend. I said we already made plans but I appreciated it. It's all very intimidating. What do I do? Reaching out to his family makes him resentful for months so I can't do that. I can notify our PC again. Maybe ask her to re-set boundaries with him since he listens to her. It's hard to be in the thick of this.

And he sent text and calls late last night too, luckily I was asleep.

[AnuDay]

Dealing with these people is like a war.  Yes, it does take it's toll on you and everyone involved. 
When I set a boundary and it is broken I push the boundary back even further.  In your case with the 7 calls in 10 minutes, the phone gets shut off.  I've been there.  Just happened to me 2 days ago, I was taking a pleasant nap and I get the nonstop calls.  It's NEVER an emergency.  It's NEVER anything remotely important.  But it's ALWAYS something that THEY need for THEMSELVE's... .right now. 
I do not bend to the will of other people, especially one who is mentally handicapped.  They can handle their own problems... .let them sink a little.  The problem with my ex is that no one ever allowed her to fail.  She's always been propped up.  Even though she has another boyfriend she still thinks of me as her lifeline.  You are not here to save anyone.  You can't change someone who doesn't want to change themselves. 
Once you enforce your boundary and they know you will enforce your boundary they will not encroach it again.  You have to show these people that you are mentally stronger than them (when it comes to your boundaries).  Once you push back they'll start to get the message... .ultimately they don't want to be totally abandoned by you, but by you asserting your boundaries you will prove to them that you are NOT scared to cut them loose forever.  The question is are you truly ready for this?  Is this your mindstate?

[david]

I had it written on our court order that all communication is to be done through email. Ex I did not answer my phone when she called. She then would leave a message. If it pertained to our boys I replied through email, when I thought it appropriate, by first stating what she said in her voicemail and then giving my response. She then started calling me from various phones. I stopped answering my phone altogether unless I recognized the number. Ex left voicemails from some of these numbers too. I would put that number into my phonebook so I could recognize it and also in case I needed it for court. I got rid of texting for a while too. It can feel exhausting at times.

This started in 2007 and got better around 2010. It is much better today. And to date it has never been an emergency.

Exs' latest tactic is to not tell me anything. She went to visit some of her family out west. She did not inform me and decided to leave our S14 at her residence. I found out a few days after she left. Her trip was 10 or 14 days. I picked up our son when I found out. I did not send an email or communicate to her in any way. I am sure she was looking forward to me replying. It was a way to engage. I did talk to s14 about it letting him know he should have called me as soon as he knew what was happening. Of course, he thought being on his own was fun and that was why he didn't tell me right away.

[livednlearned]

Hi momtara,

Glad things have been working out ok with the PC, and sorry that your ex is still dysregulating

I still get worried because they are starting to hear his calls and behavior.

If they are reaching 8, they are probably developing new insights into those behaviors. It sounds like they have witnessed inappropriate behavior before, so perhaps the calls aren't new so much as how they process his behavior is new? How do you talk to them about his anger? Are they in any kind of counseling?

even if I don't take the calls, he's still angry and can't seem to quell his anger in appropriate ways. I don't want ultimately to put the kids in harm's way. Wondering what else to do. I don't think there's enough there for supervised visits.

Does your PC have extension of judicial duties where you live? Some PCs have more power than others, depending on what state you live in.

My ex dysregulated prior to a weekend visit and demanded extra sets of clothes. I was concerned that ex was planning to take our son out of state for Thanksgiving because I had been granted an out-of-state visit and it sent n/BPDx over the edge. The PC wrote an email to say that she had sufficient concern about ex's interactions with me and his inability to communicate his intentions for our son's visit, and with my permission was willing to call off the visit and reschedule until everyone had a clear understanding about n/BPDx's intentions.

Eventually, ex seemed to pull himself together and said of course he wasn't going to take our son out of state.

The strange thing is that he forfeited that visit and never asked for additional time.

But if your PC doesn't have that kind of authority, then you would have to be the person who stood behind your convictions. AnuDay's question about whether you feel ready for this, and have the mindstate for it, is pretty much what this stuff all comes down to for most of us.

[momtara]

Thanks to all, especially Livedandlearned who has been such a steady voice of reason and so so helpful through the years. You saved me on more than one occasion, and made me at least a little bit stronger in interactions!

Ex showed up on Saturday and said that I'm supposed to "give him" the children because it's his weekend, but didn't actually ask for them or try to make it happen. Still, I hate when he picks fights in the days before a pickup. I just know he's going to show up and start arguing. The kids heard it, of course. (No, they're not in counseling yet; until recently they hadn't heard the fighting. Counseling may be a step soon.)

My PC does have the power to go to court and report to the court. She is sometimes hard to get ahold of because she's busy with social work and with training other PC's. Since my ex did not make a demand that was unusual, I didn't ask her to tell him to forfeit a visit, but I think we need to get in to see her again, as his communications about upcoming visits are nebulous (2 weeks ago he said it's "probably best" that he not take the children this past weekend because his parents wouldn't be home, and then in the middle of Friday night he decided he wanted them. I mean, really!)

It sounds like all of your advice to me is roughly: 1) Continue to set and keep boundaries and 2) Notify PC of emergencies and otherwise keep her informed.

Nothing legal for now - does that sound right?

I don't know that asking for a restraining order based on a fight, or 10 phone calls in one night (as ridiculous as those are) would ultimately help matters. (Am I wrong?)

Here's what I did, ultimately:

1) Sent a clear letter Saturday to our PC, telling her what happened and asking her for advice - Should she reach out to my ex? Have us both in to see her in order to reiterate boundaries? (I think I'd rather have ex's anger directed at PC than me & the kids). Trouble is, she's slow to respond to emails.

2) Today, ex sent two nice texts - first ones in 2 months. Sometimes it's like a fever breaking with him - the triggers go away, just like that. However, I'm not sure that's permanent. Since he's not taking the kids for another 2 weeks I sent a nice but firm letter reminding him not to call during the workday, that he should text for schedule changes, and that we need to speak to each other respectfully and not fight. I also said that requests for schedule changes should be just that, requests and not demands.

I am hoping we will have a PC appointment soon, and not close to a visit. That way we can work out a schedule. The less I have to communicate with him on anything, the better- so if done in front of a third party, it saves months of wrangling.

Any other advice is always appreciated!

[momtara]

Anduday, thanks again for that smart reminder about communication boundaries.

David, geez, what a thing for her to do. And funny that your kid enjoyed being alone. But I'm glad you found out soon and went and got him. Also, glad he's old enough to at least take care of himself somewhat in a precarious situation. I will feel a bit better when my kids are older. But of course, they're always potentially vulnerable. I don't want to fully go to just email in case they're ever with him and have an emergency. BPD's are so black and white that I worry he'd email me in an emergency just to taunt me, rather than calling.

[kells76]

Hi momtara,

Nice to hear from you on the boards again. Sorry about what brings you back 

If I'm reading right, your ex could be classified as "not cooperative, not dangerous" -- is that close? He dysregulates and argues and is conflict-y, but can cycle back down?

If that's about right, then this seems reasonable:

It sounds like all of your advice to me is roughly: 1) Continue to set and keep boundaries and 2) Notify PC of emergencies and otherwise keep her informed.

I know you mentioned that your PC is sometimes hard to get a hold of. I wonder if you could set something up with her where you send her weekly updates, no matter how "big" or "small" the issue was or wasn't -- some email titled "2018 June 03-09" and then in the body of the email list "Sunday -- no contact, Monday -- argued for 7 minutes at 3pm, Tuesday -- BPD sent email at 2am (attached), Wednesday -- 14 text messages, Thursday -- no contact" etc etc. Maybe you could even tell her, "Hey, I'm going to "over-report" to you so that you have all the info, and I'll make sure to be really specific if there's an emergency". She could file all the emails and then read them later when she has time.

Anyway, it's just one idea. Maybe it could be a good middle ground between "nothing unusual is happening, so I guess I can't tell the PC" and "what if I need to do something legal in the future, I should have records".

Cheers;

kells76

[momtara]

Thanks. Just knowing you are all there helps. That's very helpful, Kelly.

Regarding "non dangerous," I never know. I mean, so far he hasn't been dangerous. But since he doesn't control his anger and raged at me for 38 minutes on the phone on Friday, after knowing (in the past) how bad that is and apologizing, I worry about what he might do in the moment. Mostly because he takes them an hour away when he has them. Experts all tell me that his past behavior shows he's annoying and intimidating but hasn't done anything hurtful in years - but still, a new trigger could cause a worse slide.

I did let our PC know what happened and asked for advice. It's only Monday so I'm not going to reach out again but may leave her a phone message tomorrow.

New behavior today is that he sent me an email saying he was discussing, with his parents, taking the kids the next two weekends. This was a reasonable email. But then he started texting today saying "Let me know about this weekend." He hasn't actually ASKED Me about this weekend. SO I emailed about a few things, and included "Let me know what hours and days you are thinking so we can figure it out and nail it down." Perhaps that wasn't clear enough, but he either has to give me times, or I can't really work with that. I'm also worried I'll say ok to this weekend, and then he'll disregulate later in the week.

Now it's ANOTHER day when I'm in essence sort of communicating with him all day, even if it's hours apart. Hope he calms down, but if he's off his medicine, little things will keep triggering him.

[david]

"raged at me for 38 minutes"... .In that situation I would have hung up in the first minute or put the phone down next to an audio recorder and let him rage at that.

[momtara]

I know. He would have kept calling back. And he was supposed to come by the next day, so I wanted to calm him down before then. If he'd kept calling back, then I guess ultimately I would have had to go to the police to get him to stop... .I don't really see a good solution.

If he's not coming by in the near future to take the kids for his weekend, I'm much better at enforcing boundaries. If it's close to when he's coming by, I don't want him to fight in person or just before he takes the kids for the weekend.

I hate these long periods of anxiety over his next email. He hasn't responded to my request for times and dates he wants to take them. Hope he starts being reasonable. Meanwhile, I'll call PC tomorrow if she doesn't respond.

[livednlearned]

Sometimes it's easier to set ground rules before these cycles. By ground rules, I mean the things that become your boundary perimeter.

Like with the PC. Why not say to her, Hey -- what do you recommend I do when he comes over here clearly unmedicated and blowing hot lava? Do you recommend I tell him that I will not open the door if he rages? If he starts when he is inside the door, do you recommend I hold up my phone and tell him I will call the police? I really need a strategy for what to do in those moments and could use your help. I don't want to escalate things and I need some good parameters about what is legally sound, and what is healthiest for my kids.

I think a lot of people in the family law court system -- PCs and custody evaluators and GALs, lawyers, and judges, etc. -- think that our high-conflict divorces are made up of two knuckleheads. But then they don't help us with strategies that actually work.

Maybe get your PC to help you set ground rules with contingencies. If he does X, you will do Y.

Ask your PC if she recommends you hang up on your ex when he rages.
Or if she could let him know that she is advising you to hang up when he rages.
Or if she advises him to only communicate by email, and to not send another one for another 24 hours.
Or that he must send a plan 24 hours in advance by email if he wishes to change his time with the girls.
Or that she is advising you to not open the door if he has sent angry messages within 24 hours.
Or that she is advising you to call the police if he raises his voice and yells while in your presence and in the presence of the girls.

Anything she advises him of, you have to be prepared to follow through. That's the catch.

Setting up boundaries is fairly straightforward. Abiding them is another, and that goes back to what AnuDay was saying. You have to be ready to follow through, otherwise you just train him that you're all bark and no bite, in which case he'll probably escalate even more the next time you try to set a boundary.

I know it's hard. And I know the dread you're dealing with -- wondering how bad he is, whether he might do something. He goes through tender cycles and seems in some ways to be more capable of recognizing (when medicated) that he needs help. Meanwhile you are left uncertain, and probably a little hopeful and relieved when he's regulated.

Having you or the PC give him very clear guidelines about what you will do when he does X might even help him get to baseline more quickly. "She said I would not see the girls for 24 hours if I raged at her, and I raged at her. I'm still mad and I can't say I didn't know what would happen. She just emailed me the agreement about what she would do ... .I'll stay mad, and it's probably better that the girls aren't here now anyway. I'll try to cool off even though I'm furious. I don't even know why I'm angry, but I probably should take a chill pill and ride this out instead of getting everyone worked up and scared."

Since you have a PC, hopefully she can finesse this for you.

"Hey, sounds like there was some hurt feelings this weekend. Let's talk about ways to minimize the conflict. Totally cool that you were feeling upset. Not so cool to yell at people. Next time it happens, I advised momtara to put the phone down and to not communicate with you for 24 hours or until we know that tempers are in check."

I don't know. Surely this isn't her first rodeo and she can give you some ground rules for how to handle things, especially the stuff that repeats.

[momtara]

Thanks. That is VERY smart. I will push for some ground rules when we next meet with PC or when I talk to her. Improvements do happen in slow steps.

And your insight is amazing, Livedandlearned. Thank you.

[AnuDay]

Sounds like fear is driving your actions. Fear is not good. It can cause us to do strange things.  Living in a state of fear can trigger PTSD. 

[ForeverDad]

I would be inclined to ensure that any remarks such as "he didn't call" as just facts.  That way it can be interpreted as 'less involved' or 'less balanced'.  We can't force the other parent to step forward and be more involved, and we don't want to appear unrealistic with high expectations.

[momtara]

Thanks, ForeverDad. Do you mean state them as facts when I talk to the PC?

[ForeverDad]

I meant that you should not say, "I want him to call" or "I want him to call more often".  Maybe he should call more but you can't force him to call more.  You have little, if any, ability to modify your ex's established behavior patterns.  Accept that reality.  If he doesn't call much, then accept that.  We don't want to give the impression we want the ex to do something he is not inclined to do.  Well, unless it's a legal matter such as pay the child support or something like that.   The point is that you can't "make" him be a better dad or a more consistent dad.  Who knows?  Maybe over time he will improve but you have only limited influence over that so don't give the PC the impression that you're trying to dictate dad's life or force a square peg into a round hole.

[momtara]

Thanks. OH, I don't care if he calls the kids or answers when we call, although it is annoying that I have to call every night and he doesn't take it. That's the least of my worries though.

And AnuDay, yeah, I know, I do some things out of fear, but I don't want to be naive either. I do have to quell my anxiety and keep reasonable boundaries.

[livednlearned]

although it is annoying that I have to call every night and he doesn't take it.

Can you get this modified?

Let your ex be the one to call the kids. If he doesn't call, then he doesn't call.

Mine said something like, "A 10 minute call or less is a reasonable time for a minor child to talk on the phone and exchange highlights about the day with the non-custodial parent. n/BPDx will call son at 7pm during non-custodial days. If son will not be available, LnL will alert n/BPDx by text message as soon as possible to let him know when son will be available. On LnL's non-custodial days, she requests that son call or text as needed."

I think there was also a stock phrase about the polar star of child custody, or best interests of the child, when both parents set aside differences and avoid conflict so that the child can feel secure or something like that.

7pm was a time n/BPDx was pretty dysregulated most days, whether it was alcohol or just the accumulated stresses of the day. When he was given responsibility to call, he pretty much never called.

As opposed to when I was supposed to get then S10 on the phone to call his dad. It just created a new lane for bullying and drama.

It sounds like your's is more of an annoyance, but still. You shouldn't have to be the one who calls.

[momtara]

Good points, and specificity like that about boundaries helps.

He used to be the one to call. But then I'd dread the anticipation of the call. At least if I call, I can do it at a reasonable time. He doesn't answer, and it's over quickly, the end. Our PC was the one who made that change (can't remember her rationale, but it was fine with me.)

I do think I need a time limit for calls.