I'd like to win her back, but am not sure how

[WaitingGame]

I have dated this girl for about a year. Things were wonderful until spring came in. In spring she accidentally dialed me, and I overheard her date with another guy. (She did that with many other guys as I found recently, but always came back to me, and I have did the same, and she knows about it) I was angry and blocked her off on everything. That caused her to split, and hate me. However, she was going after me in April, and we had few wonderful dates together. It got to the point that she said she would break up with the guy. However, she had another split since then. Now she lives with him. Whenever, I try to end things she shows up and does everything me to convince me to stay. She says that she doesn't know what to do. She showed up last Thursday, and we had wonderful sex together. She left for work, and called me after work. However, her phone died after 30 minutes of conversation, and she never dialed back. Last night she asked if I am callable. Once I responded with yes, she said she will call me after shower. She never did though. I am trying to be supportive, and not react in harsh ways to avoid another split. I would like to win her back, but I am not sure how to proceed. Any help would be appreciated.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[juju2]

Hi,

So sorry you are going thru this.

You are in the right place.

You have power.  You can learn from others experience, strength, and hope.  There are tools here.

Write more, share when you first noticed something, something that didnt feel right.besides the phone call she accidently dialed.

Also, take good self care, j

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi WaitingGame,

Welcome  

Sounds like a lot of ups and downs for you. How often do you have contact with her now?

I would like to win her back, but I am not sure how to proceed.

Do you live by yourself right now?

Wools

[WaitingGame]

We spoke recently. She called me on Thursday, and Friday. We were supposed to meet this Saturday morning (her idea), but she slept through it (she also has narcolepsy), and I didn't form any negative reaction to it. And yes I do live by myself.

[WaitingGame]

So I visited her parent's yesterday afternoon, to help her dad with his car (her family and I remained friends), and this was the first time since the break-up, and I became overly emotional afterward. Here's our texts exchange:

ME: (this is our cute way to say hi, and she was at work)
Hi!
Hey!
Hello!

ME:
Being at your parents this afternoon, hugging your mom, talking to your dad, and uncle over dinner makes me miss you real bad.
I have never missed anyone before as much as i miss you right now.

HER:
I'll call you back.

ME:
Im sorry. I'm a mess.

HER:
Are you okay

ME:
Are you still at work?
I'm sorry.
I will be okay.

HER:
_____'s nieces are here.
Call you tom

ME:
Okay.
And my apologies about earlier. I was in a weird state of mind. I snapped out of it though.
And you do not have to call me if you don't feel like it. However, if you ever will be in the mood to connect with me or spend time with me, then, by all means, call me. Goodnight! I hope those kids don't keep you up all night, and I hope Papa John's was better than yesterday.

How long do I wait before initiating contact again? I don't want to engulf her, but also, I don't want her to feel abandoned.

[Radcliff]

How long do I wait before initiating contact again? I don't want to engulf her

Doh.  She gave you the answer.  She said she'd call you tomorrow.  Then you said she didn't have to, creating ambiguity.  You essentially told her that she didn't have to hold to a commitment, and invalidated yourself.  I know you were trying to be gentle and not too demanding, but your response had unintended effects.  Technically, the ball is in her court.  I'd let it ride for a good while.  Next time, say, "Great, looking forward to talking the next time it's a good time for you" which also communicates respect, but also firmly places the ball in her court and also communicates your enthusiasm for her.

I don't want her to feel abandoned.

She shouldn't feel abandoned if the ball is in her court (I'm not saying she won't, but if she does, you shouldn't feel responsible).  If you work too hard to keep her from feeling abandoned, if you essentially do HER work for her, you take on too much of a burden, contribute to an unhealthy relationship, and prevent her from growing.  It's OK to be sensitive to our pwBPD's abandonment fears, but we cannot let it be one of our main drivers.

WW

[CryWolf]

Id really like to echo Wentworth here. His advice is pretty spot on in my opinion.

[WaitingGame]

So we ended up talking again, and it was her reaching out to me. We had a nice conversation, and she has talked about coming back to me. She was at her parents but was watching her current boyfriend's kid. That same night:
HER:
I don't think I can have kids
I can't take it

ME:
Why?
What happened?
Kids can be overwhelming. And it's fine by me if you can't, but I do think you will be a great mom once you have stability in your life.

Then 3 days of a long break. Today I wrote that I miss her, and what I miss about her. Was that a bad idea?
ME:
I miss you.

ME:
I miss you calling me every morning. I miss our messenger conversations where we played with the filters. I miss you complaining about how bad Sapphire's poop smells. I miss holding you in my arms. I miss making love to you. I miss hearing how your day went. I miss our trips together. I miss our little ze affectionate ways. I miss talking to you on the phone when you need someone to talk to you because you are falling asleep. I miss looking deeply into your eyes, and the time slowing down. I miss talking to you about baby names. I miss complaining with you about other people. I miss having adventures with you. I miss trying new food with you. I miss how you can cheer me up even when everything is going to . I miss trapping your hair. I miss caressing your head. I miss the scent of your body.

ME:
I have a pit feeling in my stomach seeing how we are getting more apart, rather than being together in love like we are supposed to.

ME:
I'm looking forward to talking the next time it's a good time for you.

Am I'm being over the top? (I feel that it was, but I also know that she likes attention, and I'm worried that if doesnt get any she will think that I moved on)
Was that too much?
Do I just wait it out now? Or do I tell her I'm done and trigger the abandonment?

[Radcliff]

You want to be slightly warmer than neutral to her, and not pursue her.  If you are initiating, especially at short intervals, that feels like pursuit to her.

The situation is complicated by the fact that she is currently deep enough in a relationship with someone else that she is watching his child.  If you work too hard at this, it increases the chances of drama and pain all around.  The best option is to give that relationship respect, but be available for contact, and invest in other areas of your life (friendships, hobbies, etc.) so it's not like you're waiting around for her.  That will make you more attractive, and also build your life in the other areas which has benefits for you.

WW

[WaitingGame]

I followed your advice.  I have noticed she only reaches out to me when there are problems in her relationship, and it seems according to her account that the relationships is heading towards the end. She calls me about once a day now. However, she makes plans to meet me and never follows through. So I just end up not saying anything or asking anything, because I do not want to lose what I have and I do not want to appear needy, but at the same time, this causes me anxiety when she agrees to something and does not follow through.

How do I deal with this?

[WaitingGame]

As a follow-up question, should I keep having sex with this woman? Or should I just spend time with her, and refuse her sexual advances?

[pearlsw]

As a follow-up question, should I keep having sex with this woman? Or should I just spend time with her, and refuse her sexual advances?

Hi WaitingGame,

Is having sex with her making you feel bad? If so, that's a big 

with compassion, pearl.

[WaitingGame]

The sex with her is awesome. However, I'm worried that she uses it for control. I'm also reinforcing in her that's okay to have sex with someone else while being in a committed relationship. I'm worried that it is going to bite me later if she decides to come back.

[Radcliff]

The sex with her is awesome. However, I'm worried that she uses it for control. I'm also reinforcing in her that's okay to have sex with someone else while being in a committed relationship. I'm worried that it is going to bite me later if she decides to come back.

One risk for us "nons" in a relationship with a pwBPD is that as we try to adapt to make a relationship with them work, our actions get out of whack with our values.  Once we get embedded in a life where our actions and our situation don't align with our values for how we want to live our life, getting back to a life of alignment can be hugely difficult.

Short answer, then, is if your values say nobody sleeps with anyone else while in a committed relationship, that has to hold all around, all the time.  Holding on to your boundaries and your values is tough, but worth it.  Beyond the example you set by not violating that value of sleeping with someone committed to someone else, you'll be demonstrating that you value yourself by not letting yourself get sucked into intimacy with her when she is not available for a full relationship with you.

Your goal here is to avoid the yo-yo effect.  You don't want to heat up your relationship with her and then have her distance herself the next week.  What's the status of her relationship with the other guy right now?

WW

[WaitingGame]

What I care about the most at the end of the day is that she would be always back. I'm okay with other people.

I'm very familiar with the yoyo effect that you describe, and I am not sure how to avoid it sometimes. Right now, we have been seeing each other and going on dates very often until July 4th. She was ready to break up with her boyfriend at that point, but he broke up with her before she did, and she chased after him and convinced him to stay.  She called me later that day, and apologized for everything, and tried to continue what have we been doing. I was a bit cold. It was a short conversation. The next morning (yesterday), I said "I accept and appreciate your apologies." to which she replied, "Thank you". Do I give her space now, or do I propose to meet again?

[livednlearned]

Hi WG,

Trying to get a picture on what kind of future you want with her... .are you wanting to be the main guy, but she can date other people (as long as she doesn't live with those guys)?

This:

What I care about the most at the end of the day is that she would be always back. I'm okay with other people.

and this:

she makes plans to meet me and never follows through. So I just end up not saying anything or asking anything, because I do not want to lose what I have and I do not want to appear needy, but at the same time, this causes me anxiety when she agrees to something and does not follow through.

Seems like you two agree on what is physically/sexually permissible (ok to have other partners) but not on emotionally intimacy. There are protest behaviors when both of you advance and retreat.

Your values seem to be: it's ok to be with other people. It's not ok to be flaky.

Is that accurate?

[WaitingGame]

I want emotional exclusiveness. Ideally physical one as well, but I am not sure if we are both capable.

I haven't provided enough background, so I will do so now in hopes of getting more advice. We have finished dating around the beginning of April. Our relationship was full of ups and downs. Towards the end of it, I found she was dating another guy and I broke up with her, and I pushed her away. In the first month post break up, I have given her a lot of attention (I would send her flowers every day to her work). She started reaching out to me, but we were not close. When I threatened to stop seeing her in May. She agreed to see me, and we had sex, and reconnected. We saw each other for the next few days, and she said she would break up with the guy, but she didn't. We had an unpleasant exchange and she hated me for a while. I managed to repair that, and now I am always nice to her, however, I am not sure if that's what I should be doing.

We talk regularly every (almost every day), and see each other 1-2 a week. This past Saturday, she flipped out and broke off with her bf, and we had a long phone conversation, and I said I still have feelings for her, and that I want to date her. She said the same. Next day she is back to dating the guy.

Is there anything I can do to fix the situation? Do I provide her the warmth, reassurement when she needs it, and say nothing when things don't go my way? How do I react to her coming back and forth to her bf? Deep inside I am not okay with that, but I also understand it is very hard for people with BPD leave (especially in the idealization phase). I also worry, that I am reinforcing the belief in her, that I will be there no matter what happens. On the other hand if I react strongly, I will probably flip her switch and she will hate me. What do I do? Please help me.

[livednlearned]

Emotional exclusiveness, got it  

So that is your value -- she can have sexual relationships with other people, but not be in a relationship in which the other guy thinks he's her BF (and vice versa). She would have to recognize you as her BF.

Is that accurate?

If you know your values, then you can have boundaries. If she were not BPD, you might be able to discuss these boundaries and come up with something mutually agreeable.

She's BPD, tho, so boundaries have to be things you have control over. For example, I will not sleep with you while you're having sex with a guy you date more than once. Or whatever is acceptable to you. The point being that the boundary has to be something you have control over, because the only person you can control is yourself. If she is impulsive, sticking to a boundary is going to be tough for her.  

Then you have to stick to that boundary. If you say it's a boundary and then don't follow through with it, you just teach her your boundaries don't matter to you, so why should they to her.

And when you assert that boundary, you don't get mad at her, you simply tell her you're taking care of yourself because feeling hurt sucks. And (if this is what you agreed to) tell her when she's done dating the guy, or guys, come find you and you'll be ready to try an emotionally exclusive relationship again.

What are your thoughts about doing something like that? If you were to set boundaries like this, it's best to do when you are both emotionally regulated -- setting boundaries when one person is emotionally activated doesn't work great.

The part that's tough about being in a BPD relationship like this is recognizing that she will probably test the boundaries to see if they are really there. Actions are everything. Words not so much. So eyes wide open that this is really about you learning to set boundaries, then follow through. And recognizing that you don't have control over what she does -- this requires radical acceptance on your part.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

How do I react to her coming back and forth to her bf? Deep inside I am not okay with that,

This may be your answer. Maybe something for you to think about and discuss with her. What does she want? Does she want an exclusive emotional and possibly exclusive r/s with you?

[WaitingGame]

I_am_the_fire: She flips back and forth on what she wants.

livednlearned: I believe that boundaries are important. However, if I put the boundary that I won't see her until she wants to be exclusive with me, I'm afraid, that she will eventually move on. I will have to ignore her texts and calls to enforce this. Also, from all the dating scenarios in her life, she always had someone before breaking up with someone else. I am thinking that I should perhaps start dating someone new, and redirect my focus there, but still, talk to her. In other words, show her that I am not emotionally exclusive to her.

I messed up a bit because I bought a house to be nearer to her. Currently, she is 1 hour away which makes seeing each other a difficulty. However, I think that makes her believe that I will be there no matter what. Also, her current bf is very controlling and checks her phone all the time. He doesnt know that we are seeing each other. Also, she trusts me enough not to lie to me. We decided that I will use a burner phone, and text her female friend messages (to set up girl nights, and such) until things resolve.

Am I insane for playing along?

[livednlearned]

Am I insane for playing along?

Not insane, no.

It sounds like your values take a backseat here.

So boundaries then become hard to assert.

Healthy boundaries are usually the backbone of healthy relationships.

She is the one setting the terms of the relationship.

So you have to be ok with that.

At the very least, you will want to keep an eye on your confidence, your self-esteem, and watch that it doesn't dip too low.

Make sure you are taking care of yourself so that someone is 

[WaitingGame]

I am good at compartmentalizing. However, is that the road to get to what I want? (I want an exclusive relationship with her) What is the optimal decision considering the circumstances? Is it too late? Should I cut the loses and move on?

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Can you simply ask her about it and let her know what it is you want? If she says yes, then great! If not, then try to move on.

[Radcliff]

You are getting solid advice from livednlearned and I_Am_The_Fire here.

I completely understand where you are coming from as far as being afraid to withhold contact from her because you don't want to lose her.  But, if you bend to fear too much, you undermine yourself and end up getting a relationship that never meets your needs.  Folks in long-term relationships have this issue, too, where things get badly out of whack because they are afraid of asserting themselves appropriately.  So if you want to have a successful relationship with her, you need to master boundaries and face your fears of losing her.

What if the world wasn't black and white where you have a choice only between NC and trying to court her.  What if you established a "friend zone" with her that allowed modest amounts of contact, but your availability and the topics of discussion were limited to what would be appropriate to casual friends?  Is it worth a try?  Right now, you are giving her intimacy from you, without the emotional exclusivity you want.  You are shooting yourself in the foot.

WW

[WaitingGame]

I started establishing boundaries. And I need your perspective/input on what I am doing wrong.

We were supposed to meet this past week, but she canceled on me 3 times. Her boyfriend is very controlling and was by her side at all times, and she couldn't come or talk to me.

This was the message I have sent to her after the third time:

Before today I have heard that you are coming here. After a lot of effort on my part, you said that you are at your sister's, which you could have mentioned yesterday so that I wouldn't count on you coming here. Then you said that you are leaving your sister to come here. 3 hours later I texted you and you said that you are stuck working. I have no problem with you visiting your sister, working or doing anything else. However, when you make plans with me, and they change I feel that I should be informed of that so that I can make better use of my time.

That's what I mean by inconsistent/strained communication. And I'm out of ideas on how to make improvements.

The next morning she texted me:

I just ended it with Robert. Or at least made it to where we aren't together. It's been a really hard night. I'd appreciate the positivity. Okay


I responded with:
If that is actually true, please call me as soon as you get this.


We have then talked, and she was really sad about the breakup. I tried to be positive, and we made plans to meet after work. Later that day I have sent her:

I have planned something fun for us to do after you're done with work. I look forward to seeing you.

She called me towards the end of her shift and told me that she is a mess, and needs to take the time off to relax, take a bath, and listen to some music.

I tried to be encouraging that it would be good for her to get out, and do something fun, and she was not happy about that.

I send her this text then:
I'm sorry for giving you a hard time about tonight. I didn't mean to. If you need to take the night to yourself, that's fine. I mean it. I trust you, and I want what's best for you. I do believe that I can get you out of the blues if you give me the chance though, but that's totally up to you.

Having said that you are the most beautiful woman with strong wits that I have ever met in my life, and you have bewitched me body and soul. No woman stood a chance to get my attention during the last 4 months.

Then before going to sleep, I sent her this:
It's a full moon tonight, and it is the eve of us knowing each other for 15 months. It's has been a hell of a ride, but I have no regrets. I went through a full range of emotions, and through that journey, I have learned how to love. Thank you! It's been a rollercoaster, to say the least, but it was all worth it to me. I am not sure what lies ahead, but it seems that for the past few months we were heading down, and that makes me scared. I hope good times lie ahead, because we really need them to keep the rollercoaster wagon rolling. Cheers to you Sarah Louise Verhines.

Marcin Stanislaw Malec
The Polish guy that always believed in you, and wanted your life to be better.


She did not respond. I have learned from someone else that her boyfriend has spend the night at her place. So I asked:
Before I jump to conclusions. Why is Robert at your place>

She responded:
He came over to talk. I drove his car yesterday

Many hours later, I have sent her the text:
How is your day going?

She sent me a picture of her sad face and said
how is it look like it's going?

I responded:
Like it needs a makeover. Let's do something fun. You need this. I hate seeing you like this. I want to put smile on your face. Plans after work?

I'm pretty wiped out today, but you're welcome to come over here, and just cuddle/sleep. I have some good food. Otherwise, I propose going on a fun small road trip the next day you are off work.


There was no reply.

At 4:30am she sends me a picture of a female, and writes:
My date tonight

I have replied:
I'm jealous. Do I need sex change? Are you into girls now? Who is she anyways?

There was no reply. In the morning I have send:
I was joking of course. I hope your date went well.

I am assuming she did send me the picture to say that she is not spending the night with her boyfriend.
However, I have learned that he did spend the night.

After I learned that from a friend, I have sent the text:
Call me when you are awake. It is urgent and super important.

She has not called.

What is your opinion? Where did I go wrong with my interaction with her? What should I do when she calls me?

[Tomacini]

You’re interacting way too much and way too romantic stuff. She is not feeling it at the moment so this repulses her probably.
Let her initiate the conversations, don’t chase, don’t act needy... .she hates it, it reminds her of the engulfment of the abuse.

If you must send something, keep it neutral and please, quit the lovey dovey stuff. Only use that when she does the same

[once removed]

Let her initiate the conversations, don’t chase, don’t act needy... .
... .
quit the lovey dovey stuff. Only use that when she does the same

i think this is stellar advice.

one thing i might suggest is to avoid rescuing her. a lot of us fall into this pattern. you want to cheer her up and bond with her, i know. i think unless she comes to you and asks you for that, its really best to give her space, avoid trying to make her feel better. it can feel smothering or demanding.

the other relationship is a complicated situation. it sounds like things are on the fritz, but it may be a "too good to leave, too bad to stay", on and off kind of situation... .broken up one day, back together the next. anticipate this. let it play out, and should it come to an end, give her lots of space to grieve. i think its in your best interest to be as far out of the equation between the two of them as possible.

[livednlearned]

Boundaries are things we have control over... .

So in your scenario, a boundary might be always having a back-up plan when you make plans with her, so you aren't left hanging when she doesn't show (it's a pattern). You can't make her stick to plans, but you can have a boundary about what you do when she's a no-show.

Or, giving yourself a limit to how long you will wait. Maybe it's 30 min. It's a pattern that she doesn't stick to her plans. You can't make her stick to plans, but you can have a boundary about long you wait for her. 

Also, she said one thing, did another (you found out). Then you said, "I trust you."

Do you?

It's ok if you don't. But you don't have to say I trust you to someone you don't trust.

That's confusing 

It may also tell her it's ok to be duplicitous because you'll not only keep trusting her, you'll tell her she's doing great.

So that's a boundary, too. You won't tell her she's doing something that she's not.

It may be sending the signal that you don't respect yourself, which will make it hard for her to respect you, too. It might be time to shift to acting on your boundaries vs. getting her to buy into them, because she either can't, won't, or doesn't want to.

The first text about how she did one thing and then another isn't going to work (it shames her). Better to say, "Hey, I'm going to be here at one o'clock. If I don't hear from you by noon, I'll assume you have other plans." Then go do something else, be consistent. Be strong. It's attractive 

[WaitingGame]

Solid advice thank you. So as it turns out, she did move out, and they don't live together anymore. However, they had a trip planned that started this past Thursday that I found about from her best friend. We have talked about it, I wasn't happy about it, but told her that she could use vacation and that I will see her after she comes back. I was giving a ride to her best friend when we have talked, and I told her that. She was always paranoid, and afraid that we would be dating. An hour after the conversation she started accusing me of using other people to say something to her current boyfriend and demanded that me, her and her current boyfriend talk. So we did talk, even though it was past my comfort level. Then silence. The first day after she published pictures of herself when we spend our times together. Three days after she posted a lovey-dovey video with her boyfriend on the beach. I still didn't reach out. 4th day she was posting pictures, and videos like a maniac - which is out of character for her. It felt like a person on the rebound trying to show the world how happy they are. Later that day I found from her best friend that she won't talk to her anymore. So I send this:

I am not involved romantically with ____, and I never will be. She owes me money, and I gave her a ride to her uncle to get money I oversaw your conversation, and I asked her about it. I can be rather intimidating, and she probably thought that I don't care anymore about you, so she saw no harm in sharing. I just want to clear that up. She cares about you, and as I said before, I don't want to be the reason of why you ladies don't talk.

Also, I'm not sure what the deal with ____ and you was that night, and I think by now you know that I wouldn't talk to ____ or about ____ to other people. I hope that my interaction with him made that very clear to you.

I feel like she thinks that I abandoned her, and her switch is off. She never replied to my message. Her birthday is coming up this Tuesday. Do I send her generic birthday message? Or do I send her more personal message? Do I send her flowers? Or do I do nothing and live my life, and live it up to her? She cares a lot about her birthday, and it is absolutely a big deal for her.

What do you guys think?

[livednlearned]

The goal posts move a lot in this relationship, and the rules of play are constantly being negotiated, mostly by her (you help), so it's hard to know what the best course of action is.  

Also, this is a relationship with three people, and she is in a great position, one-up all the way. You are there whether he's on his way out or not. He's probably on his way in/out depending on where she has you positioned.

Even if she lives on her own and picks you, expect him to be there. His tolerance for you is high, as is your tolerance for him, even if neither of you likes it.

In BPD relationships, actions are what count. What she says depends on what is happening in that moment, whatever she can say to meet her immediate needs to keep two guys.

I think you have to be honest about the love triangle dynamic so that you can focus on what you value and then get things aligned from there.

There appear to be no signs in any of this in which you win her back and it's just the two of you. Is that ok?

Also, what do you mean about being intimidating?