The utter spiral of hell that was foist on me

[1stTimer]

This is the utter spiral of hell that was foist on me over perhaps 3 weeks after many months of similar campaigning.

- Months of ignoring where I was to push for more more more relentlessly

- A conversation in late March about how I needed to reconsider moving to Cali which was one of my main goals after a decade plus of horrific family interactions mainly due to my father's illness and then death. I wanted a clean and fresh start and life. Her point is she didn't want to move and we needed to discuss my NOT moving and buying a place with her and it was only fair to have that conversation now. For perspective: I had never had INTERCOURSE with this girl, we'd 'fooled around' perhaps 3x, each of those was me basically pleasuring her with foreplay. We hadn't been on dates except meeting up for a glass of wine, met family, etc. We weren't even dating. It was, IMHO, strange and insensitive to boot and NOT a way to get me to feel comfortable ABOUT moving into formally dating or a relationship.

- According to her at that point she stopped pursuing me but that is an utter lie as this is what follow, which I believe was a plan on her part to force the issue and the rest of this whirlpool is over three weeks:

- She told me she wanted me to consider new apartment not 'hers' but 'ours'.

- We finally had 'real' sex at her place. We discussed first how she had not had sex for over a year, me much longer. She also brought out a sex toy that had been brought up in our first 'date' almost 18 months earlier (after which I declined to date her) which she said she had not used by herself or with anyone and felt comfortable sharing with me. We had pretty intense sex, and according to her was the best she'd had since she was 20 and she "felt like I'm on 3 valiums' and walked down the street afterwards skipping and repeating it. Given it was the first in a long time for either of us, the intimacy of sharing the 'toy' and the 'quality' and intensity of it it was hard for it to not be a bonding experience.

- She got the flu a few days later (not from the sex!). She was so bad by midnight I called and offered to take her to the emergency room, not something just anyone does. She was very happy I offered, declined but the next night told me she didn't believe I really cared because I had not checked in in the morning too. I was not happy about that, we talked, she said 'well I just thought that you'd want to come take care of me' i.e. 'you are my boyfriend'.

- I went back to her house a few days later, we didn't have time to 'play' since her mother was on the way but she said a few key things; 1) when I was inside her "I am falling in love with you" 2) when we had to stop because her mom was on the way 'don't worry we have our whole lives to play' 3) Then she walked me into her bedroom and showed me she'd emptied the top two drawers in her bureau and said 'these are yours I want you to start leaving your things behind and I want you to start staying over'. 4) she called my 'boyfriend' several times and when I looked at her since she knew I had not wanted to be there said 'oh you are going to ask me by the end of the month you just don't know it yet' (<< <<  WARNING).

- I considered what she had said and realized man regardless of my resistance I AM in a relationship and she if for all intents and purposes my girlfriend. I have her keys and I am offering to take her to the emergrency room at midnight and sharing great sex and intimacy.

- I asked her to meet me at our local bar to ask let her know my epiphany and that yes, I was on the same page. Yet I don't think she thought it was going to be this easy, her 'you just don't know it' and the meet was horrid; she told me she'd 'messed around' with someone in the same apartment, same bedroom, same toy (the latter really blew me aray) but that he was 'not good at it you are magic'. I decided to plunge forward anyway, she told me she had a date with another guy the next night ("well you said you don't want a relationship". Decided to plunge forward anyway, now would be a good time right? Then she says what pretty much started my entire spiral; "the problem is I know I'd cheat on him, I'd never cheat on you because I like you so much and the sex is great". Did you have sex with him? No but I just know I'd cheat on him. Would you marry him if it got that far? Yes he is the kind of man I'd marry. Would you cheat on him then? Well yes, he just doesn't do it for me.

You talked about values and now this girl has done a 180 degree rotation from the values I thought we shared. I don't even know if she MEANS it but I naturally did NOT ask her to be my gf. In other words, I think her Plan B backfired and she didn't even know it.

- She texted me a few days later "I think I said some things I didn't mean are you mad at me" and I said 'no but I think you have given me great pause about 'us'. She told me that she didn't mean most of it that she was trying to get me jealous so i realized we should be together, that she had not been intimate with anyone like me since we 'started' except for some 'dabbling' (which seems to include toys and fellatio. She asked me to please come over for dinner Saturday and start falling asleep and waking up in my arms so we can take this to the next level. I agreed. On Friday she mentioned maybe cancelling our 'tentative' plans to see her Grandmother. Except now I don't trust her. I am quite trusting with gfs but now she has planted seeds with "Plan B" and I'm thinking: well who knows if she just has a date with Guy 2? So I text her again 'look I am done'.

She asks again to meet and talk. We walk in the park, she somehow gets me back to 'look I didn't know where you were or what I meant to you can we just have the dinner and move forward I really want a relationship with you'. She shows me a spot in the park where she was sobbing to her mother about never meeting a man, and where she prays. I stupidly (in retrospect) show here where I was going to propose to a woman 15 years ago and how, she is mesmerized and asks me how I will ask the next woman. Dumb me I know

- I cook at her house. It is very nice, she gets on my lap several times to kiss me, we spend hours in the dark making out and saying sweet nothings with, as usual, my pleasuring her. Then she wants to go to sleep sated. She asks me to get into bed and hold her. But I'm really freaked out now. I'm htinking if she hadn't told me these things, I'd be getting in bed with all my chips in the game man. Amazing night, sensual, romantic, affectionate, girl in my arms but she may not be the girl I thought, she may be TOTALLY different and for all I know guy #2 will be over tomorrow night. I don't date women like this, I leave.

- She texts me 'did you leave because of things I am working on?' by which I gather she means infidelity? I tell her it is something else (she never seems to want to pleasure me) since I can't even go there, it is not a convo I've ever had. This devolves as she does not seem to care so I return her key to her doorman.

- She sends me a terse 'thanks if you ever want to reconnect let me know' and I send an email SLAMMING her.  I just don't get any of it, I don't get how you can have such an initmate moment and give your keys and your drawers and ask to sleep in someone's arms and ask someone to nurse you when you have the flu and then ask anoter man over. I tell her this is not me and I'm done.

- She emails me to please meet her, that because of her past if a man doesnt explicity ask for a ommitted relationship she doesnt feel she is in one. I think while 'the conversation' might sometimes make sense, it isnt' always about talk it is about what you want in your heart. I ask her 'is this a coffee shop wrap-up talk or a let's work this out talk' she says 'I have no expectations except that god will guide our words and hearts where we should be'.

- I meet her and she is surprised I am apologetic over the tone of my emails and explains again about her need 'to be asked'. I repeat my position tht I've never 'asked' and you just know. She repeats she needs to be askes. So I tell her look clearly we are in a relationship, I like you, I want to be in one with you. She says "Really?" I say yes. She takes me hand and asks again I say "XXX will you be my girlfriend?" She says yes yes ask me again. I say 'xxx will you be my one and only?" She kisses me and says yes and I in a gesture I think is gallant say 'Why don't we start over on Friday and have a real date, our first official date as BF/GF and start from there? I'll even ask you agin if you want" (since she is so happy being asked)

- So far I've been through some major hoops just to be in a relationship that with anyone else in my past would have been... .a relationship. But the next day she texts me to meet her lunchtime 'to discuss some things before Friday'. I assume she's changed her mind. But no; she needs me to CONFIRM I asked and that I WILL ask. I do so and she jumps in my arms and tells me how SO many people are going to want to meet me, how I need to start going to family events, how she has not been in a real committed relationship for over ten years etc.

- She texts me the next day from the same wine bar which she could have invited her new bf to since he is 10 blocks away but did not. No biggie. We have a nice convo until I use the term 'girlfriend' and she says "I am not your gf yet you still need to ask". Again, any other woman, fine, this woman who seems to see fidelity/monogamy as some sort of discussion vs something that is in your heart or not seems to be saying to me "I am free until friday". I aske her "so are you not committed to me yet just because of some words which I by the way DID ask and you DID say yes to 1/2 dozen times?" We go round and round by text most of it her telling me that it needs to be 'officially asked' and 'I just need to hear you ask over dinner' and 'this is all new to me so it would mean a lot if you asked'. I'm just not liking it, same reason i didn't like the night I was at her house. I. Do. Not. Trust. Her. So i tell her "I DON'T understand no. Fidelity, committment, monogamy live in your heart. They live in mine. Words are words. I said the word and will say the words but if they do not live in your heart or you are not ready do NOT ask me to say them because they mean everything to me' No reply.

So the next day I cancel the reservation. She texts, I tell hre I am part of this 'us' too and need trust and reassurance too this is not jsut about her. We meet, she texts me while we are together so that it is 'offical' as she says "I am totally committed to you I just can't wait for you to ask me again'. I tell her I'll make a new reservation and she FLIPS that I cancelled at all 'that is just you running!'. I tell her no it was me walking away, I don't run. And we worked it out.

- We have the dinner which I've described in detail before; she is weird, she backs away, she tells me just to listen she wants it she is just scared so let her be scared. Yes she wants it. I tell her we are just agreeing to be together, there is no great thing to fear here we aren't getting married.

- We have then night and day I described with the weird behavior and the immense future bombing. Same girl who was scared to death the night before about being officially asked as she demande to be (which I've done now 12 times) is turning this into Married with Children (as per my other posts)

- I walk her to her gym after spending the night holding her in my arms as she has wanted forever, making love to her, complimetning her, vieweing her entire family album and pretty much put my arms down finally and accepted and discussed all the things like which beds we should buy, where we would move when we get a palce together, finances, yes i want ot be provider and protector, which night will be our official, yes I'll get flower valentines day from now on, etc etc. etc. All of which is TREMENDOULSY hard for me since I'm not just speaking word but giving every part of myself, committing to be committed to a future, and also seeing a future spread in front of me I have not had for years and years and years which I've put in a box and have now opened all that up.

- And then, twelve hours later, she meets me to tell me I'm a great guy but no she doesn't want a monogamous relationship with me. AND that she did nothing wrong, we just 'see things differently' (keys to place and drawers in bedroom MAYBE see things differently, the rest? Are you ******* kidding me. And then the girl never emails, calls, text or snail mails me like I never existed.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear 1stTimer-
I'm so sorry for the baffling state you find yourself in.  After almost 4 months of being separated from my BPDbf of 4.5+years, today I changed my status to ex-romantic partner.  I would have to say count yourself lucky that you didn't endure the devaluation experience with her.  Over and over and over.  It is excruciating.

And here's the thing, when she did what she did, you had a human reaction - nothing more, nothing less.  It feels like she cornered you, tested you.  And as far as her "friendly" response to your email, not surprising.  In many instances, BPDs like/need doors to remain open for a future recycle.  She's doing this with a former Bf now; and she likely senses you're in a good spot because of the "guilt" you have over yelling at her.  But again, your reaction was understandable.

With my relationship, I spent countless hours trying to find the words that would penetrate the seemingly hollow heart of his disordered mind.  I never found them.  And yet he wanted "love" so much... .

You have been through a lot of pain and suffering through the last 12-15 years.  And as you state, you cautiously entered this relationship, whether you called it a r/s or not, with a woman who disclosed she had a difficult past.  I learned about BPD 3.5 years into my r/s, when I searched the phrase "unprovoked rage in men".  I learned and used the tools to the best of my ability.  But then he finally did something I could not forgive.  He exited angrily as always.  Only this time, despite his repeated efforts, I did not allow him to return.  I never told him it was over... .I was too afraid.

So 1stTimer, this is what I'd really like to say... .when all is said and done, sometimes it's really about "us".  The hurt in US.  This experience can force us, or ALLOW us to reexamine who WE are, and really put us on a path toward healing OUR past pain. If you were to look at therapy, in whatever form that takes - working with a therapist, reading, learning to re-engage with your heart, your body - it would NOT be solely about this recent relationship.  You are so worth that investment.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

GemsforEyes, thank you so much for the kind words and support and it sounds like you made a good decision changing your status to 'ex'. That takes a lot of bravery to take that step.

I'm not sure about you, I never experienced anything like this before. I had a heartbreaking experience with 'love of my life' before the entire 15 year debacle started but she ran for a reason (finances) and some horrible friends (mostly geeky male friends secretly in love with her poisoning her). But nothing like this. I never doubted her love and we had some truly beautiful moments of reconciliation. I've never experienced this in my life and I'm still as I've mentioned astonished every single day this girl can not reach out to me.  That last gauntlet week where I had to ask, confirm and then wait for our dinner to officially ask spun me off my tracks in a way even losing 'love of life' did not and that was quite bad.  One issue I'm dealing with is separating the fact I never loved her and in fact knew even when I said let's try this committed it was not going to last. But after that whole 15 year experience I detailed when I finally let my guard down on our last day together I just... bought in fully. As I was supposed to? I mean I saw instead of being alone working on my business/future and then going out alone for a glass of wine watching people kiss and love and go home together before heading back home to work alone, again, a future of Saturday's exploring the city with my girlfriend, Saturday nights in 'our' King Size bed exploring out clearly compatible sexuality, spending sundays in bed with a woman in my arm calling her 'pet names' instead of getting up at 6am going to work alone at Starbucks, and even as we discussed having a 'partner' to speak to about my business and bounce ideas and plans and options off of instead of going it alone. Yeah I only bought in for 18 hours but man the difference between that future and the years of lonely Saturday nights and Sunday mornings past was a stark one.

She knew enough about me to know all this. She knew enough about me to know that giving any of this vs all of it was a tremendous sacrifice/gift to her. Yet she took it and smashed it anyway.

Do I think she knows she has an 'in' because I feel guilty? I never mentioned I felt anyway about that other than my email and I'm hoping she was savvy enough to know my ending was pretty much a repeat of what I stormed out with of the cafe; 'thanks for opening my heart I am going to go give it to someone else'.

I have considered sending her another letter as per this thread if you care to read/review

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325813.0

yet ultimately I know I will not (I do have a great deal of strength and resolve especially after the last decade plus). I think first of all I'd like to see if SHE reaches out. But more than anything, as much as I kick myself everyone I have told tells me I acted honorably from the first (when I did not take advantage of her promised sex since the said she wanted a commiutted relationship) to not only my honesty when we started being physical but to the extent to which I gave of myself regardless, to how I handled her fears and issues even towards the end. I think many men in fact at the very last encounter would have acted FAR worse, if not just verbally but physically. I think the letter I wrote is great but at the end of the day I don't think she is worth it. I think she brought out the best of me that I've kept hidden for years and I keep returning to what I said to her and the reason I sent the letter; to keep my heart open and bring just that with me to other people and women and to let her suffer her wounds on her own. If she has returned to man who makes her call him Mr. and Sir, monitors her email and calls, forbids her to talk to other men when outside, degrades her emotionally to the point her friends tell her to not tell them if she is dating him again, and their sex consists of him beating her ass raw then... .enjoy. If she finds keeping an ex in her life who body-slams her when she tries to leave the bars instead of one who treated her goals and fears and desires with respect and cherished them then... enjoy.

What it does make me remember is my ex i.e love of my life. Whatever went wrong at the end (as Sam Kinnison said 'do you mean something like monnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeeee?' our entire relationship was based on this fantastic joyful affection and happiness not just at being together but making the other one happy. She used to in the middle of anything, a conversation, walking down the street, at a movie theater in the dark grab my arm or upper leg in something like a death grip and just say my name as if he heart was bursting just being with me. That was better than any "I love you" I ever heard; I was bringing that much happiness to another person just by my presence (and vice-versa). So I've had those relationships and one with my best friend in the world (less romance but she would have stepped in front of a bus for me to protect me and vice-versa). If my BPD chose body-slamming demeaning insecure little men because she sees THAT as strenght then again, enjoy.  By the time she 'gets it' I will be past this. And she'll just be starting.

I do appreciate the idea of therapy to deal with all I've been through and it is not a bad one. Right now I am doing self-healing the only way I've learned how; channeling. Someone asked me recently what drives me to get up every single day and work on this seeminlgy endless project day after day and year after year and I said 'Fury and Terror man. Fury and Terror'. While not exactly true I will say I've become adept at channeling fear/terror/pain into successes, and I've managed to use this latest as a motivation to finally after ten years get back into the amazing shape I used to be. No one is body slamming *me* into the ground.

I hope you manage to maintain the separation from your BPDbf long enough to get the distance you need to stay away forever. Best of luck to you and feel free to reach out to me in kind should you ever need.

Dear 1stTimer-
I'm so sorry for the baffling state you find yourself in.  After almost 4 months of being separated from my BPDbf of 4.5+years, today I changed my status to ex-romantic partner.  I would have to say count yourself lucky that you didn't endure the devaluation experience with her.  Over and over and over.  It is excruciating.

And here's the thing, when she did what she did, you had a human reaction - nothing more, nothing less.  It feels like she cornered you, tested you.  And as far as her "friendly" response to your email, not surprising.  In many instances, BPDs like/need doors to remain open for a future recycle.  She's doing this with a former Bf now; and she likely senses you're in a good spot because of the "guilt" you have over yelling at her.  But again, your reaction was understandable.

With my relationship, I spent countless hours trying to find the words that would penetrate the seemingly hollow heart of his disordered mind.  I never found them.  And yet he wanted "love" so much... .

You have been through a lot of pain and suffering through the last 12-15 years.  And as you state, you cautiously entered this relationship, whether you called it a r/s or not, with a woman who disclosed she had a difficult past.  I learned about BPD 3.5 years into my r/s, when I searched the phrase "unprovoked rage in men".  I learned and used the tools to the best of my ability.  But then he finally did something I could not forgive.  He exited angrily as always.  Only this time, despite his repeated efforts, I did not allow him to return.  I never told him it was over... .I was too afraid.

So 1stTimer, this is what I'd really like to say... .when all is said and done, sometimes it's really about "us".  The hurt in US.  This experience can force us, or ALLOW us to reexamine who WE are, and really put us on a path toward healing OUR past pain. If you were to look at therapy, in whatever form that takes - working with a therapist, reading, learning to re-engage with your heart, your body - it would NOT be solely about this recent relationship.  You are so worth that investment.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

And as far as her "friendly" response to your email, not surprising.  In many instances, BPDs like/need doors to remain open for a future recycle. 

I'm still going to say that due to the 'language' (nice note) this was more than a friendly reply and one she took a couple days to construct just right so it was stripped of any reference to what it actually was. I don't think she'd take the time to do that to diminish what I said to me, I think she'd take the time to make it so anyone ELSE reading would not know what she was referring to. It reads to me (and my friend who ready it independently) as if someone is reading over her shoulder or dictating it. Not "beautiful letter" not "it meant so much to me" not "I wish you the best of live and love too" not even "I miss seeing your name on my phone". Not "I wish you hadn't left before we could talk" or "sorry if I hurt you". Not even "I hope you've been well since that day" not even "I hope you've been well". Just "hope you've been well" and her initial. It is carefully crafted so that it looks like someone she does not know particularly well or professionally wrote her some thank-you note or a reference and some generic 'hope you've been well' (since some generic time in the past). It was two days later and either a) she wrote it knowing someone would be reading it or b) her $500 an hour therapist helped her construct some non-commital reply after she expressed a need and desire to reply.

But on the rest you may be right; if she has not had a 'committed' relationship for ten years and 'if a man doens't tell me he wants a committed relationship I assume I'm not in one' then she has been juggling this for a decade plus. On the night of Our Dinner (sorry to keep capping it but it is exactly the way she treated it) her ex-bf whom she dated 8 years ago and she says she does not hook-up with (she expressly asked me permission when we agreed to be BF/GF to still hang out with platonic male friends and mentioned him specifically and says she is her once a month whiskey drinking buddy) texted her to see if she wanted to get a drink. She said "No I have plans" and she for some reason felt the need to show his reply "What the ___ does that mean?". She said it was inappropriate but he gets upset when she says no and she never has plans so he was confused. Never has plans in eight years?  Clearly he is either a jealous monster or thinks she is his gf too. This is the guy that supposedly kicked her in the chest once and body-slammed her to the ground another time when she tried to leave the bar they were at.

Last story she told me (these were all on Our First Day Together As a Couple Planning Our Entire Future and Picking Pet Names and Bed Frames) was that when her boss who was sleeping with her and told her to 'wait for him' for marriage (right) for years she went with some guy to Montauk whom she had told 'this is just physical not a relationship' and he got furious when she said no to his wanting more (presumable becaus he took her to montauk every weekend) her window ended up getting kicked in because he was upset.

I'l gathering with all this I don't end up the good guy then no matter what; I'll be exactly what she tried to narrate to me and I spit back in her face; the FWB that 'misunderstood' and called her names and yelled at her because SHE didn't want a relationship. Likely there will be some body-slamming or kicking or breakage introduced into the story too. It all makes sense as, being a normal guy whose had normal relationships, I figured by the end of the week he friends/family would say 'of course he got upset you dragged him kicking and screaming and then booted him he has been great go get him back' but of course instead they said 'thank god you got rid of that abusive jerk, he had no right to (insert her physical violence story here) and who is he to want a relationship after he gave you nothing. he didn't even buy you a proper dinner until the end. why do you keep finding jerks?'

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear 1stTimer-
Take a nice deep breath... .you deserve that, so allow yourself at least that "luxury".  As you suggested, I went and read your proposed letter on the other thread.  Beautiful... .truly beautiful; and if I were you, I would save those incredible sentiments for a woman who in fact BRINGS that love and radiance into your life.  Someone who would understand and actually feel the depth of those words.

I hear you saying you did not love her in your deepest sense, so why do you feel compelled to communicate such depth of feeling to her? 

I often tell myself, "Gems... .if you don't go in, you can't find out".  Well, 1stT, you went in and you found out.  But here's the thing, not everything, but some "things" I've learned through my experience with my now exBPDbf (and another barrage of text messages last night).   We often don't get the truth from BPDs.  With mine, there is a TON of embellishment, lies if you will.  Some ridiculous- like a 5-year old would tell.  Lies from a highly accomplished, talented and beautiful man who is now 60.

Have you heard of "mirroring"?  It almost sounds as if she did that to you when she relayed the story about the weekend "Montauk man" - she just wanted physical and not a relationship with him.  And she told you how furious he got when she refused his proposal for a deeper r/s.  Was she projecting YOUR impending reaction, knowing that she had love bombed you for months and was about to release you?  You have no way of knowing if the Montauk man story is real or not.  How I sort of see it is that in relaying that story to you at exactly that time, she was mirroring your interaction with her over those prior months; and projecting that you would have a negative reaction when she told you how great a guy you are.  Great guy!  But here's an interesting thing - I'm astounded that she told you in person.  Many times BPDs simply disappear without a word.  But she wanted to bear witness to your reaction.  This tells me she trusted you to not actually hurt her.  Point one in your favor.

As far as body slamming "ex" Bf, who knows... .like you said, he was surprised that she had plans?  My take is that she had been seeing him all along.  In these relationships, it's hard, but we (pronounced "I" have to stand back and take an objective view when looking at the behaviors and hearing the stories.  I do not and will not EVER know what was true about his dramatic and chaotic stories.  I only give credence to what I've witnessed.

My BPDex refuses to let me put the painful and violent end of my 19-year marriage behind me.  He is obsessed with it.  I am not!  But that is simply BPDbf's inability to take responsibility for any of the pain or cruelty HE has delivered.  I see that clear as day.  He needs to project his cruelty onto someone else, onto something that happened to me 7 years ago and a divorce that was finalized 9 months before we met.  He cannot hurt me with my ex-husband's assault.  I will no longer allow exBPDbf to minimize his own behavior by blaming me, ex-husband or even foreign adversaries.

It's a process, 1stT, but the more you come to understand yourself and this disorder, the closer you'll get to releasing your need to thinking you MUST understand the disordered mind.  It's kind of an impossible thing to do.

Finally, I will tell you that I sent an email to my exBPDbf in April.  I didn't ask anyone here before sending it.  I had things to say, and I knew he wouldn't understand it anyway, but I wrote it (very quickly, I might add) for myself.  Well last night in the barrage of text messages he accused me of "bad-mouthing" him with the email and said he showed it to "everyone".  I explained that it's not "bad-mouthing" if I simply send a letter to him to express my feelings.  I have no idea who the "everyone" he shared the letter with could be... .this guy is friendless.  And even more stupid than I ever thought possible- because if someone had sent a letter like that to ME, I would have hidden it from the world!  So he's got to be lying.  But who knows... .

I do want you to know.  I was in a very dark place until a few weeks ago.  My very best and most beloved friend passed away suddenly in February, and that's when BPDbf opted to pull another stunt.  I was bereaved,and couldn't take it.  My days of forgiving unforgivable behavior ended with that last act.  I had to find some feeling to be alive - nothing seemed within my grasp.

As silly as this sounds, I looked into my dog's eyes... .and apologized to her.  Then I read here about Radical Acceptance and "Willingness".  I keep repeating the word "willingness" to myself so many times each day.  That word seems to be my magic powder.  And I began taking B complex vitamins.  I will tell you other things I did to release BPDbf from my life if you find that's the course you want to take.

None of this is easy, but healing is possible. (Sorry this is so long and rambling)

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Dear 1stTimer-
Take a nice deep breath... .you deserve that, so allow yourself at least that "luxury".  As you suggested, I went and read your proposed letter on the other thread.  Beautiful... .truly beautiful; and if I were you, I would save those incredible sentiments for a woman who in fact BRINGS that love and radiance into your life.  Someone who would understand and actually feel the depth of those words.

I hear you saying you did not love her in your deepest sense, so why do you feel compelled to communicate such depth of feeling to her?  

Absolutely where I got to Gems. I actually got so pissed in a conversation on the 'letter' thread about the entire situation let alone MY being the one who needed to apologize for ANYTHING. The girl deserved a body-slam not an apology

And yes, nothing about how I felt about her to start or how she behaved deserves a letter like that. It wouldn't change a thing inside her for one thing and if it did she does not deserve it. She does not deserve to feel better about herself or ability to be loved and certainly not from me and certainly not for that horrific behavior she never expressed a word of contrition to me for. As you note below, I'll become another "Montauk Guy" ("he was a super-sweet guy he just misunderstood and when I told him he became verbally abusive and said horrible things" and the friend or therapist or mom or guy will have noo idea what she did).
[/quote]

Have you heard of "mirroring"?  It almost sounds as if she did that to you when she relayed the story about the weekend "Montauk man" - she just wanted physical and not a relationship with him.  And she told you how furious he got when she refused his proposal for a deeper r/s.  Was she projecting YOUR impending reaction, knowing that she had love bombed you for months and was about to release you?  You have no way of knowing if the Montauk man story is real or not.  How I sort of see it is that in relaying that story to you at exactly that time, she was mirroring your interaction with her over those prior months; and projecting that you would have a negative reaction when she told you how great a guy you are.
  Great guy!  

Did you ever see or read Wiliam Goldman's book/movie Magic? It is about a schizoprhenic ventriloquist (only William Goldman man) who starts to lose his mind totally. He finds his childhood unrequited love and woos her. But the 'dummy' is jealous so when he has finally made love to her and they are in his cabin and he can finally be happy and whole, the 'dummy' starts to spill all the beans about him, especially how he actually set up a couple of seemingly impromptu situations that made her feel close to him. He cannot shut the dummy up and she is horrified and runs out.

THAT was that day. All these stories surfaced that day (future bomb day); Montauk Guy, her still loving her ex and his having shown up and almost canceling dinner, the way her ex body-slammed and kicked her. The disturbing part of the Montauk Guy was she was telling me (once again) about ex-boss who slept with her but asked her to 'wait for him' (for marriage) and wasted years of her life (thus the 'committed relationship' talk need apparently). So it turns out this Montauk Guy was someone she dated while 'waiting' for him. I have no idea why these stories surfaced. They were interspersed with the future-bombing and she was, as she had been since dinner, short and tense. We went between future-bomb discussions (and god help me e.g. if I didn't spend enough time viewing on and commenting on her entire family album), these disturbing revelations, me pleasing her or me complimenting her ("tell me more a girl cannot get enough".
 

But here's an interesting thing - I'm astounded that she told you in person.  Many times BPDs simply disappear without a word.  But she wanted to bear witness to your reaction.  This tells me she trusted you to not actually hurt her.  Point one in your favor.

Which is where this whole thing breaks from BPD and was the ONE reason I felt I might need to apologize since I didn't give her a chance one she opened her mouth. As you know by now it was the 'I didn't do anytihng we just see things differently' that made me lose it. So I have no idea what her plan or expectation was, I do not think she expected me say the things I did or storm out planning to use all the work she did to open my heart to go date other women. So if she trusted me not to hurt her I guess I "violated" that trust huh? I'll just get added to the stories of abuse.

As far as body slamming "ex" Bf, who knows... .like you said, he was surprised that she had plans?  My take is that she had been seeing him all along.  In these relationships, it's hard, but we (pronounced "I" have to stand back and take an objective view when looking at the behaviors and hearing the stories.  I do not and will not EVER know what was true about his dramatic and chaotic stories.  I only give credence to what I've witnessed.

I had that thought too but the weirdest part is feeling the need to show me his text over dinner. Did she want me to suspect or know? Her excuse that she is NEVER not available when he calls because she NEVER has plans or dates seemed... .weird... .but then again she had no idea how to act on a date so there are too many strange components to her to even BEGIN to try to suss out the truth. Maybe he thought he was in a relationship, her 'if a man doesnt ask I don't consider myself committed' coupled with the intensity which which she expects 'uncommitted men' to share themselves (take her to emergecny rooms, reconsider life choices, take her keys, etc) probably means there is a slew of men who thought they had a girlfriend who did not. Maybe he never body-slammed her or kicked her.  Maybe one day over drinks when he thought he was with 'his girl' he found out (as I did) she brought some guy up the apartment he had keys to and the bedroom he had his clothes in and had slept the night before with her in his arms and gone down on her for hours while she wore a neglige he bought her and did the same thing with the other guy and told him the same malarly "if a guy doesn't ask" and he yelled at her or slammed the table or shoved her off him in disgust at the bar. I have no idea and never will.

My picture from her stories is poor girl whose ex was emotionally demeaning and physically abusive and so insecure she couldn't speak to other men and her ex was a bully who physicially beat her even now that their realationship was over and *I* was the nice guy white knight. This is probably all so far from the truth (except my being the nice guy white knight except that is clearly not part or 'her story' now)
[/quote]

Finally, I will tell you that I sent an email to my exBPDbf in April.  I didn't ask anyone here before sending it.  I had things to say, and I knew he wouldn't understand it anyway, but I wrote it (very quickly, I might add) for myself.  Well last night in the barrage of text messages he accused me of "bad-mouthing" him with the email and said he showed it to "everyone".  I explained that it's not "bad-mouthing" if I simply send a letter to him to express my feelings.  I have no idea who the "everyone" he shared the letter with could be... .this guy is friendless.  And even more stupid than I ever thought possible- because if someone had sent a letter like that to ME, I would have hidden it from the world!  So he's got to be lying.  But who knows... .

One good reason to post here I guess, I'm sorry you experienced that. Goes to show you no matter what you say people like that are going to read what serves their narrative.

I do want you to know.  I was in a very dark place until a few weeks ago.  My very best and most beloved friend passed away suddenly in February, and that's when BPDbf opted to pull another stunt.  I was bereaved,and couldn't take it.  My days of forgiving unforgivable behavior ended with that last act.  I had to find some feeling to be alive - nothing seemed within my grasp.

I am sorry your ex couldn't find it in himself, for him and everyone else allow me to extend my condolences. You needed support and you just got a selfish damaged man make it about himself. You didn't deserve that. And you know it which is good.

As silly as this sounds, I looked into my dog's eyes... .and apologized to her.  Then I read here about Radical Acceptance and "Willingness".  I keep repeating the word "willingness" to myself so many times each day.  That word seems to be my magic powder.  And I began taking B complex vitamins.  I will tell you other things I did to release BPDbf from my life if you find that's the course you want to take.


None of this is easy, but healing is possible. (Sorry this is so long and rambling)

Thank you for the thoughts and kudos on the efforts you've taken. I think I made a significant turn in the road yesterday, fueled by rage at this conversation I had in the other thread that really burned any feelings or desire I had to send that letter the way turning a stove on self-cleaning does. The feelings are now all char and whisps. She doesn't deserve an apology, a letter, or the thoughts or knowledge she was loved. For one thing she was NOT. For another she did nothing to deserve it and nothing to keep it. And she should not feel as if she did. She doesn't deserve it and the next men in her life don't deserve whatever happens to them with her false narrative supported.

I am still partially upset I sent the first letter (a month ago) in weakness. Yet what I sort of like about it is that, as opposed to storming out and her wondering what I was doing since I said I'm going to go date other women with the heart you opened while I walk around angry and hating her, she got a letter that was super loving and forgiving but still ended the same way, albiet much more nicely; I'll always remember you for opening my heart. So now she has this guy who apparently cared and cares deeply for her and forgives her who has gone NC since and is walking around with the open heart she worked so hard for and sharing it with other women.  THAT is how I'd prefer to leave it and her.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear 1stT-
I want to acknowledge your last response to Skip about what you learned that will help you going forward.  I felt mighty power in your statement - it nearly spread to me, and I need that.  A lot of us do... .it sounds like you're feeling better, and your responses to me are so supportive and deeply appreciated, 1stT.

As odd as it seems, and I kind of said this earlier to you, extricating myself from this BPD r/s (pretty much needed the jaws of life to do it) forced me/allowed me to dive deeply into my past.  I am feeling freed from other past traumas.  Releasing myself, finally. 

You are strongly and wisely allowing this to open your eyes and heart to being alive now.  I am certain that even in NYC, there are countless lovely women who would gladly share a path alongside you, as both friends and reciprocal lovers.  I'm about to Grab an eagle's feather and a wand of sage to "smudge" myself and my home - and smoke out any lingering anger... .it's a "California" thing... .(really Native American).  And I believe it. 

I've said it before on these boards... .we all come with a past and some "baggage"; but we want to stow those bags securely enough so that every time we open a closet that baggage doesn't come smashing down on our heads.  You didn't ask, and Please don't take offense... .but moving ahead, you are likely going to meet a "love of your life", though you believe you previously had that.  You may not know it when your eyes first meet.  For many reasons, some women have insecurities at the beginning, as do men.  If a man discusses a past woman as "the love of his life", the REAL woman in front of him may opt out of "competing" with a ghost.  Two cents from an older woman... .

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Dear 1stT-
I want to acknowledge your last response to Skip about what you learned that will help you going forward.  I felt mighty power in your statement - it nearly spread to me, and I need that.  A lot of us do... .it sounds like you're feeling better, and your responses to me are so supportive and deeply appreciated, 1stT.

Feeling much better and powerful after yesterday. It took that convo I mentioned where I felt backed in a corner as if I had not done enough for her to make ME say enough. I'm glad if the 'power' can transmit through the forum it is why we are all here. I feel like I've been one of those rockets in lift off in the moments you aren't sure if they are going to hit escape velocity or not and suddenly they do and I did.

You are strongly and wisely allowing this to open your eyes and heart to being alive now.  I am certain that even in NYC, there are countless lovely women who would gladly share a path alongside you, as both friends and reciprocal lovers.

Agreed. I'll tell you one thing from experience and some knowledge now of BPD though; this is the time they'd start coming back because they can sense this.  She is not 'escaping' anything she just dropped back to whatever ex-cycle she goes through and I believe, BPD or not, she is quite clear what she had and lost. Not even as a man just a person and friend in her life. I think that is how this cycle works btw for many; the nonBPD finally escapes the trap, the BPD is left behind and finally realizes they didn't escape anything by leaving or pushing; they just wriggled around a little deeper in the jaws of the trap and the other person escaped.

And this is a good chance for shout out to a woman I know who helped me more than she'll ever know; she goes to my local wine bar, I had a crush on her when I first met her years ago but she had a boyfriend so I said that is that and just became friends with her. Supported her in creative endeavors (went to them, discussed them, etc) and she never forgot. Fast fwd to a few days after the BPD Day she must have seen in my eyes I was a mess. Asked I said nah just stupid long girl story she said I want to hear every word. Told her she was aghast. But she said "take my word as a woman (who is gorgeous and vicacsious and has men in love with her all the time) you are a rare and wonderful man, perhaps even one of a kind. You are kind and supportive, you are amazing and empathetic listener, you are interesting and interested and everything that is good about a man". Wow. We've become closer since (she has a new bf so oh well but this transcends that) and every time we talk she tells me at least once if not multiple times "I adore you". If you feel newfound power in my I daresay she is part of the reason.

She also 'gets' everything BPD does not; I said to this one something similar I had said to BPD who crinkled her nose at it "I don't mind being 'the protector', I like being the protector and being someone's strength. All I want is when I fall to my knees, a woman who picks up the sword in two hands stands with her back against me and says NO ONE GETS BY ME TO YOU UNTIL YOU ARE BACK ON YOUR FEET'. This girl got misty eyed, and toasted me and said "Yes! Partners. Giving the strength they have to one another'. F-ing wow.

You didn't ask, and Please don't take offense... .but moving ahead, you are likely going to meet a "love of your life", though you believe you previously had that.  You may not know it when your eyes first meet.  For many reasons, some women have insecurities at the beginning, as do men.  If a man discusses a past woman as "the love of his life", the REAL woman in front of him may opt out of "competing" with a ghost.  Two cents from an older woman... .

Totally get that and never would say that to a woman I was interested in, but I do get not saying it at all since I 'might not know' so it is good advice for sure. Thank you!

[1stTimer]

Note: I was going to post this as PM for one specific member, however I've been encouraged to share it with the board so I will. This whole thread has (naturally) gotten very confusing for me as I spiral back and forth about something and someone I had no idea I felt so strongly about. In any event here was my previously intended PM as a PublicM instead and a personal thank you to Skip and once removed for keeping my head on (somewhat) straight and dealing with my hysteria. What is funny is I am NOT an hysterical person, usually very level headed, people remark often how they had no idea I was scared/mad/worried/freaked-out even. I've had more hysteria from this during the spiral out and since so that must say something about how I felt:I'm on the verge of reaching out to her.

Given what you know about her and the situation, do you think she actually really really cared for me and just got terrified and ran?

And is staying away because of those feelings? I mean man if she was about to introduce me to the whole family as first BF in a decade plus there must have been some scary feelings. It is the whole reason I considered that letter. As opposed to just 'lost that loving feeling' which just does not add up for me with all the things that transpired and happily moved on. Didn't trust my feelings after all this time i get (said as much "the way you are acting is new to me" "I like the new you and new communication" etc).

I ask because, when I have days like this where I get past the anger and hurt and confusion I am left with this; I really really miss her. I know I saw she was not X or I didn't feel Y but a lot of that was me just holding back. A lot was me not acknowledging to myself how she made me feel on my birthday or how those messages she sent affected me. I mean I'm living in a city where many women won't date men who 'only' make $250k and when I told a woman once I'd been out searching for my lost father who had both dimentia and vertigo issues and finally found him after 4 hours alive and well and I was a mess her response was 'wait you live with your parents?'. Anyway point is this girls messages like "I don't care you live with your parents I believe in you" and "Hey I had a thought: why not skip making a billion or a million with this and just make a nice living and enjoy your life". Hard to tell you what those meant. Never told her. Probably would have meant the world to her to know.

So I'm on the verge or reaching out. Not for answers. Not for an apology. Just because. I don't get the feeling from her reply a month ago she'd blow me off, I think her reply clearly did not repeat back to me my 'goodbye'. She could easily have reflected that back to me "I wish you luck in your future too". She didn't. She said "Hope you've been well". Subtle distinction maybe but seemed to me she was leaving an opening for a reply. So as much as I'm naturally thinking the worst (all the stuff she said was a lie and she wanted to be with someone else, dating him, happy, etc) maybe she is hurt and confused and my really not nice 'going to date' hurt her and confirmed her fears about me and my never contacting her ditto.

At the end of the day though I'm just left with try as I might, as much energy as I put into my business, going out at night, 3 hours at the gym, even Tindering (God's what a travesty for humanity), even with the amazing woman I told you about telling me how much she adores me and how amazing I am... .I miss this woman terribly. That has to mean something? This was not your usual BPD, I didn't get devalued, I didn't even get Discarded. I got pushed away after we agreed to be a couple she hadn't done in a decade (I'm actually going to say EVER) and she scared herself and me with the Future Bomb. But it was real and it was the day before cut and run so it must have been there. But even then as you pointed out she did not disappear and discard, she came uptown to meet me and tell me. Not honestly to be sure but she was not discarding me. And I confirmed here worst fears (didn't really want her, couldn't count on me, etc).

So rather than do the huge letter Skip keeps insisting I send (kidding as you know Skip) I am going to take his advice and test the waters with a "Hi" text. And see what returns. If I ever do get the chance to talk to her and we get to really talking I'm sure I can say all the Little Princey things a lot more succinctly and in a way that will mean a lot more to her while I look her in the eye.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Skip]

Can you clarify how it ended and what was said?

In reading your past posts, I know that she said that she didn't "want a monogamous relationship". Did that mean she no longer wanted to see you? Did it mean she wanted to be able to see others as well as you? What do you think it meant?

Also, can you clarify what you said. I thought I read that you said goodbye (confirmed that with a email later) and said you were going to find someone else. Did that mean you no longer wanted to see her and were ending it? Was this adisgreement,  fight, or a finale? What do you think she thinks?

Is your desire to move 2,500 miles away and her desire to stay local an irreconcilable difference?

[1stTimer]

Can you clarify how it ended and what was said?

Sure. Just to clarify the timeline so I can put what she said in perspective sorry to reiterate. Feel absolutely free to skip to Sunday but the rest makes my reaction more understandable:

Monday: sent the 'had it letter', she asked to meet, told me her position, I asked her to be 'my one and only' and suggested the 'reboot' First Date Dinner Friday. Quite a happy girl. Surprised but happy

Tuesday: Asked me to meet to 'discuss things' I thought it was reconsider, it was double-down (after her therapist) to make sure I asked and WOULD ask on Friday. Jumped in arms 'a lot of people are going to want to meet you' thing.

Wednesday: Emailed her she was out, happy to hear from me, but we got into a text 'war' because she in reply to some email (where in she was surprised to find out I even talked about her to my friend(s) which says something) that she was NOT my gf until I officially asked. Didn't like it given her past position, didn't get it given I'd asked three times in one night and she'd been thrilled and said yes and come back a day later to confirm, it revealed I guess some of my insecurities about both who she was and in general. Left the night with a 'no I don't understand fidelity and committment live in your heart or they don't dont ask me to ask if you dont want this or are not ready'. No answer so I cancelled.

Thursday: Worked it out explaining I needed reassurance too and she made clear she had to hear it officialy for it to be real for her, she wasn't used to this part of me, how I was treating her, etc. So we both had our own stuff, met, worked it out, I re-reserved the nice restaurant. Exhausting mentally and emotionally. This is all (as far as I understood) "just" us agreeing that we are in fact what we are in fact in: a relationship and want to be clear on that and committed/monogamous, etc. since both of us were getting hurt by the lack of clarity.

Friday: Dinner. Picked her up, escorted her to car, held door, escorted her ot table, upscale nice place, dressed up. After her initial and annoying "I don't know if I can do this" and me about to leave, she said shut up just listen just letting you know I am scared. we moved past it had our 'official' toast to 'New Beginnings' which she loved. Went to her place, she fell asleep and woke in my arms like she always wanted. Felt good for me too

Saturday: Day in bed and on couch, complete and utter future bomb (buy king size bed, we'd need bigger place when we move in together, saturdyas should be our official date night, need to meet whole family, need to discuss finances, roles in relationship i.e. you said you want to be my provider and protector right, what should pet names be. As mentioned finally stopped resisting and went with her flow and kinda bought into the whole vision. Walked her to her gym at dusk. Nagging feeling something was off. She told me some disturbing things about ex's and such and seemed on edge, and she'd bumped into her abusive ex just before our dinner which almost made her cancel. So lots going on inside her. She was also apparently going out that night with a platonic male friend, from what I could gather at his bar where they were having a... .singles event :|

Sunday: Email. She bought me a 'present' some Mexican Cola I'd mentioned. A consolaiotn prize I guess :| asked me to meet to 'talk'. I knew what that meant don't ask me why just not HOW. She walked in, we ordered espresso and without preamble said before I even got my butt in the seat "Look you are a super guy but I am not ready for a committed relationship with you". Perhaps if she had taken my hands and repeated how scared she was. But not the 'you're a great guy" speech as if I was the one who pushed for all this. I asked if she knew how messed p what she just did to me was and she said "I didn't do anything, we just see things differently". I said ":)iferently? You asked me to ask you. You asked me to ask you!" She said 'why are you repeating that?' I realized she had some script/narrative, I was furious, hurt, bereft, having laid it all on the line and opened my heart to everytihng I told her for months I was not prepared to open up yet. And now I was supposed to act as if my pain was my fault for 'misunderstanding' our relationship.

I lept to my feet and yelled at her "I KNEW you would do this, I knew this was what you were about when I met you, this is why I didn't date you in the first place". started storming out and said (holding the consolation prize she gave me) "Thanks for this AND thanks for opening my heart to dating I'm going to go date"

In reading your past posts, I know that she said that she didn't "want a monogamous relationship". Did that mean she no longer wanted to see you? Did it mean she wanted to be able to see others as well as you? What do you think it meant?

I think it meant she didn't want a committed relationship. I don't know if it meant there WAS someone else or she wanted there to be someone else, mostly my gut said she just meant I CAN'T be in a relationship. Naturally though my mind was saying she went to the singles party and met someone (as if that would impact 18 months of us connecting) or her ex came back or who knows? I was already wound tighter than a drum since the "I know I'd cheat on him I'd never cheat on you" and everytihng that happened in between. To me it felt like a giant set-up to get back at me for saying the same. exact. thing. to her 18 months earlier "Sorry, you are great but I am not ready for a relationship". But in retrospect I just thing she meant she was terrified now that it stared her in the face at 34 to finally be moving into a real relationship. again when we had our 'let's work it out before dinner' discussion I made it clear if she had needed that week to NOT be committed and there were other men or she wanted to do 'wild oats' or whatever feel free but don't ask me to ask you then if you aren't ready. She said clearly there is no one else and not trying to get anything out of my system. So she had the out rigth there if she needed it.

Also, can you clarify what you said. I thought I read that you said goodbye (confirmed that with a email later) and said you were going to find someone else. Did that mean you no longer wanted to see her and were ending it?

I just meant I was utterly hurt by her almost prying my heart open because she needed it to be and then stomping on it. I meant to hurt her clearly. I didn't want to go find someone else, I don't even work like that. Of course I still wanted to see her I'd just spend months opening myself up to doing just that and crawling over hot coals to ask her and open myself up fully to just that. I wanted the whole future-bomb she exploded in my face; her and I exploring city saturdays, king size beds all day sunday instead of up at 6am to work at table at starbucks, pet names, her waking up in my arms, her supporting me in my business and sharing in the rewards all of it. I bought into it all of it man. I didn't extrapolate and make it all up though (gosh she kissed me she wants my kids) I just went with her vision which she yanked away a day later as if she never said if and I did.

Was this adisgreement,  fight, or a finale? What do you think she thinks?

I don't think she expected it to be a a finale. I don't think she expected my explosive anger. I am not sure HOW she thought I'd react, especially recasting it to make me the idiot. I'm guessing she expected a disagreement, a fight and then an agreement, likely "let's go back to what we had I'm scared and I freaked myself out.". I don't really think it was the monogamy part of it (I'd already given her an opt out before our dinner if she had wlld oats or other men or unresolved men). For all of the 'value' stuff that worried me I think she was at her heart as she said repeatedy 'a one man woman'. I think it was the committed part that had her running. It was all the things she somehow assumed our 'words' meant besides 'lets agree we are having a committed relatopnship and see what we have when we do'. again she had not been in a relationship for a decade (at 34) and I highly doubt other than her marriage (which she had replied was a sham) she never ever had one.

Is your desire to move 2,500 miles away and her desire to stay local an irreconcilable difference?

We never got to really discuss it in depth. I think if her position is my company is our breadwinner and her job is her joy than moving has to be on the table at least. Would I stay in NY vs move to Cali for someone I loved? In a heartbeat. Would she have moved for me? I'd gather the answer is yes if the business were such that I had to and it was lucrative but there are complicating (surprise!) details; she loves her job and had an affair with her boss whom she still works for. Was it an issue for me dating? No. Am I going to not move to Cali where I love it and leave all the bad NY memories behind so my gf/wife can stay working for her ex-lover? Not a chance.

[1stTimer]

Just to wrap up the timeline on above:

Waited around expecting a text or email or call from this girl I've spoken to every day for months to explain/clarify e.g. "I am so sorry I got terrified at all the things I said and wanted and realized I'm not ready can you forive me I didn't mean to hurt you I'm nuts about you". Nothing

3 Weeks Later (Mother's Day, and because since she always told me she spoke to her mother and sister and grandmother about me not to mention their opinions so the day was pretty charged with what I imagined in my mind would be her discussing me with them) I sent my 'nice letter' (basically how amazed I was at how much I missed her, how much it used to mean to see her name pop up on my phone, how I'm sorry I was not ready for what she had to offer me when she came in my life, how I wished her life and love she deserved, and how I'd always remember her and her gift of opening my closed heart). Yep in retrospect not an 'I get you letter' but from my heart and without rancor at least. However clearly it ended same way as I left the cafe 'thanks for opening my heart see ya'.

2 Days later got cryptic 'thank you for your nice note. hope you are well'. made a bunch of leaps on that, one of which she was back with abusive email-monitoring ex since the reply was so sanitized, but also read into it lack of rancor and that she did not pick up the 'have a nice life bye' theme but present tense 'hope you have been well' so the door seemed somewhat open.

So we are here a month later.

Can you clarify how it ended and what was said?

In reading your past posts, I know that she said that she didn't "want a monogamous relationship". Did that mean she no longer wanted to see you? Did it mean she wanted to be able to see others as well as you? What do you think it meant?

Also, can you clarify what you said. I thought I read that you said goodbye (confirmed that with a email later) and said you were going to find someone else. Did that mean you no longer wanted to see her and were ending it? Was this adisgreement,  fight, or a finale? What do you think she thinks?

Is your desire to move 2,500 miles away and her desire to stay local an irreconcilable difference?

[Skip]

Four observations... .

1. You have said that there are a number of things about her that give you pause. I think its fair to say that their are a number of things about your actions that are giving her pause... . 

2. Before you open up this can of worms, you need to get a good handle on how this looks and feels from her side if you want to have a meaningful conversation with her. What she is doing is based on what she is seeing and it is as logical and reasonable as what you have done. As she said, you see things differently.

3. You are the one who broke up the "association", so IF it is to be rejoined, that kinda falls on you to be the healer. You may not want that - but if you do - that's probably the only way it happens.

4. 30 days is not to long for a resolution, but it is getting up there in time.

I think your reporting on the events was a lot clearer and a lot less emotional, but it is still pretty emotional for you. All that emotion and feelings you have for your side of things, makes it hard for you to see her side. You are doing better. If you calm more, you will likely see more.

I take from comments that you have made that you think she is afraid of commitment or struggling with BPD thoughts. I think she might be struggling with your actions and reactions. As she said, you see things differently than she sees them.

[1stTimer]

Four observations... .
1. You have said that there are a number of things about her that give you pause. I think its fair to say that their are a number of things about your actions that are giving her pause... . 

I'd say #1 is she doesn't trust I mean any of it, which her 'you never kiss me first' and 'I didn't even think you liked when I sat in your lap' and even her 'ask officially' would indicate.

I also don't think she liked how I as she called it ran and struck out each time, more than anything because it made me seem less confident and together. She even asked dinner night 'do you think you are really Type A alpha?' (I in fact do not call myself Alpha). It os one reason she got so mad when she found out I cancelled the dinner (good cause, her need to clarify she was not my gf or committed to me for the remainder of the week was concerning) and she called it 'running'. I called it walking away. As I did when she did the 'I'd cheat on him if I married him'.

So I'd guess my reaction at the end mirrored everything she didn't like before. OTOH I don't react like that normally her actions were terrifying to me as I'd never experienced anything like them before and was wholly unprepared to handle them calmly especially just opening up again.

2. Before you open up this can of worms, you need to get a good handle on how this looks and feels from her side if you want to have a meaningful conversation with her. What she is doing is based on what she is seeing and it is as logical and reasonable as what you have done. As she said, you see things differently.

I don't think she meant that that way honestly. I think she meant something like 'you saw it as if I was pushing for a relationship, I wasn't'. Which is and was ludicrous. She tried to say one time earlier she had backed off already which is when I said 'how is giving me your keys telling me to consider it ours and emptying drawers in your bedroom and asking me to hold you to sleep and take care of you when you are sick 'backing off'.

If I had to guess how it looks a) I freaked out when I found out she slept with someone else b) without thinking jumped into asking her to be with me only because of that c) didn't REALLy want it (thus all the official hoops) and d) was surprised I jumped them all. And there I was :|

3. You are the one who broke up the "association", so IF it is to be rejoined, that kinda falls on you to be the healer. You may not want that - but if you do - that's probably the only way it happens.

I am unclear how I broke the association. She sat me down to tell me she didn't want to be my girlfriend after all and after all THAT. How is that not breaking an association? That's like saying if someone cheats on you and you leave you broke the association. Only on a technicality as I see it. She didn't reject my advances or tell me at the bar 'look we are just f-buddies it is what you wanted I started dating'. She clearly said yes and closed the trap on that. So backing out right after I said yes and the future bombing, that is breaking the association.

In any event I did reach out after 3+ weeks with my 'nice note' as she called it, she did respond to it in a way I believe left contact open but w/o putting anything on the line.
[/quote]

4. 30 days is not to long for a resolution, but it is getting up there in time.

Why, BPD and other people reach out after months. The girl I mentioned from my past, she blew up in my face before what would have been our big date. Tracked me down to aplogize, said she was not ready. I left her alone. She reached out 1/2 year later with dinner and flowers and said she wanted to be in my life.

In any event I clearly needed time to cool as she did, and that entire 3 week maelstrom needed to dissipate it was likely as insane for her as it was for me.

I think your reporting on the events was a lot clearer and a lot less emotional, but it is still pretty emotional for you. All that emotion and feelings you have for your side of things, makes it hard for you to see her side. You are doing better. If you calm more, you will likely see more.

But I do. I see the pain she went through waiting and not getting any of the feedback I could have and should have given. I get the pain she went through when I lashed out though I am unlcear if she does at why I did since her actions were ranging from distrubing to despicable. I get that she was taken by surprise by my 'sudden committment' (which she would have gotten the day after she predicted I'd ask her to be my gf if she hadn't tried the infantile 'i slept with another man and am dating another guy' routine) and made me jump through hoops to prove it. I get she got terrified because of her past. I get she was not only terrified it WOULD work but terrified I'd abandon her, and not just because of her BPD (if she had it) but because of my months of reticence and apparent (according to her) propensity to run. I can see by her various comments such as 'I'm surprised to find out that you talk to your friends about me' and 'I didn't think you liked when I sat in your lap' (lovvvvvved it) that between her insecurity and my closed heart she was deeply insecure about my interest and motivations. I get that I did exactly what she feared and lashed out and ran.

So I think I see her side pretty well by now.

I take from comments that you have made that you think she is afraid of commitment or struggling with BPD thoughts. I think she might be struggling with your actions and reactions. As she said, you see things differently than she sees them.

Yes. She wanted me to be calm and strong and accepting and unafraid and confident in the face of her various shenanigans. I wish I could have. I was in, as I'd told her since I met, a very vulnberable closed off place and lacking in confidence that I could truly give myself to a relationship until i was on my feet financially and emotionally. Again I believe her 'differently' simply was her trying to pretend that I thought we were moving into a relationship she was pushing for and her thinking her actions were moving away from me. Which is what pissed me off so much since it was endless pulling in even when I moved away and nothing she did could be construed by anyman to be anything but pulling me whether implicity (here are my keys and drawers) or explicity ("I need you to ask me to be your one and only" "I'm falling in love with you" "we have our whole lives to figure it out" "I'm buying a king size bed so we can sleep together every night in comfort".

Overall I'm where you are on this that it is on me to make this happen, she won't. I get the letter is not going to do that so the plan is for a simple 'Hi' by text. What are your overall feelings on this having a chance? All I have to go on is how she felt for so long, how that future bomb was not months before we 'broke up' but hours before, and that her reply to me seemed to leave the door open since she could have either ignored it, told me to piss off, or mirroed back the 'you have a great life too'.

[1stTimer]

3. You are the one who broke up the "association", so IF it is to be rejoined, that kinda falls on you to be the healer. You may not want that - but if you do - that's probably the only way it happens... .All that emotion and feelings you have for your side of things, makes it hard for you to see her side. You are doing better. If you calm more, you will likely see more.

Also just speaking as a person who has clearly put a lot of time and thought to understand what happened including my responsibility for it; don't you believe as an adult who cared about another adult she too could look at the events I descibed and see the exact same thing, whatever her narrative is? Man I pushed him hard, past his comfort zone, manipulated him to get him to come to me, put him through the ringer to make sure he really wanted to commit even though he told me how hard this was for him and his past, and I just shot him down the moment I got it?

This is one reason I was waiting for weeks; as how could she NOT see that she'd been so unfair and hurt me? Again whatever her fears were about me, it was not an honest way to back out the very next day.

I'm imagining if she were here instead of me you'd (hopefully) be pointing out many of those same things to me.

Yet as I read your reply it unfortunatley gives me less and less hope that reaching out is a good idea after all... .

[1stTimer]

Four observations... .

and an epiphany.

Skip. I've spent almost two months with everyone commiserating over how horribly I've been treated and how damaged this girl is, how patient and honest and understanding I was of her and her issues. From my friends to my ex-lovers to everyone on these forums from moderates to guests. And they were all right. My boundaries were ignored from day one, I was manipulated, my needs were ignored, in many ways I was betrayed and I was asked to lay down my soul to a girl who either didn't ultimately want or couldn't accept it, who painted a future for us ignoring what it would do to me when she then pulled it all from me out of her own malice or fear. She hurt me terribly without apology or care for my pain.

This is all true and it has been validated for weeks by people I knew and strangers. And it gave me solace. But in the end, it meant... .nothing. Because all I got was my truth reflected at me. Which is sort of a booby prize.

Then I resisted your version of the story, largely her version of the story because I knew it wasn't 'true'. Everyone knew that and if I tried to present that or apologize for it people from my mother to board members to my ex would rail against the very thought.

Yet I've given this a LOT of thought tonight while out at my local wine bar. I turned away all conversation (you know, the women throwing themselves at me ok only one) and wondered where this being right got me. Which is right where I am. And where it could possibly get me if  I ever tried to communicate it to her which is... .right where I am. And started thinking that maybe love is about understanding someone else's truth. Even if it is not yours. Even if you don't agree at ALL. Which is pretty much what you tried to tell me with my letter but I hadn't extrapolated that yet. And her truth is painful when your just... see it instead of analyzing it.

Did I tell her where I was and what I could share? Sure. But she still shared special things with me like my birthday and that text I mentioned wherein she said do you need to make a billion or a million why not just work less and be happy and have a life. From a woman who wanted a life with me. Did she ever know what that meant to me? No. So her truth is she shared some special parts of her self and it went unnoticed, unvalidated, unappreciated.

Did she share parts of her sexuality she had kept hidden with me that I cherised the intimacy of? Yes. And then hurt me when she shared them with someone else. Yet did I let her know how much that sharing meant to me, that she shared it with me and me alone? No

When she showed me the drawers she had emptied in her bedroom to share with me, to have me share my life with her did I let her know how touched I was and I'd use and cherish them? No.

When of all the women in NY I can imagine she said "I don't care if you live with your mother, I think it is amazing you care for her and I believe in your business and future and you" did I drop to my knees and kiss her hand? No I said nothing.

So her truth is painful. And as much as I can see how that last day hurt me, she may never have even imagined it because she didn't know how much the vision of 'us' she painted, lounging in our king size bed whispering pet names and exploring the city on saturdays and having her be a confidant and adivsor to my business and sharing in the success meant to me. So how could she know how tearing it away hurt? All she knew is I lashed out and said her greatest fear; thanks baby I'm going to go date other women.

My point is that validating my own truth has gotten me no where. Not in understanding what I want, not in understanding what she needs not in validating what she feels or what she went though. I though I did and thought I was but I was not, not truly.

I think I am ready to reach out now, just with simple 'Hi' and I hope behind that single word she'll feel that I'm actually reaching out to her, for her, about her. And make a difference no carefully crafted letter ever could.

Basically, thank you Skip

[1stTimer]

I take from comments that you have made that you think she is afraid of commitment or struggling with BPD thoughts. I think she might be struggling with your actions and reactions. As she said, you see things differently than she sees them.

Well I didnt make this up btw; she has not had a committed relationship for ten years, that was very short lived, then she had a 'faux' marriage. She has expressed terror at being in relationship and the fact that the fact she is in one (or was going to be one) was going to be seismic news in her entire extended family. She is afraid of commitment. I don't think her behavior at the end was due to strugglng with my actions or reactions I think it was precisely because of her fear of commitment. I think my action and reaction to that did not make for a good mix or potential at the time to reconcile where we were.

[Skip]

I don't think her behavior at the end was due to strugglng with my actions or reactions I think it was precisely because of her fear of commitment. I think my action and reaction to that did not make for a good mix or potential at the time to reconcile where we were.

Getting this right is pretty important.

[1stTimer]

Getting this right is pretty important.

True, but I can't speak for her or read her mind. Or are you saying that I am rejecting the truth of it and it was me. Her fear of commitment isn't something I made up or used as a crutch to explain away her running. This girl has desparately wanted a 'committed monogamous' relationship for years by her own admission. It is the very first thing she asked me for (before she really knew me even). She has sobbed in the park uncontrollably according to her because she thinks she'll never find someone to love her. She is in her mid-30s and hasn't had what she calls a relationship since her mid-20s which was quite brief. Since I've known her it is all she has wanted yet she doesn't have it and hasn't really ever had it. She told me how scared she was over dinner, was high-strung after we 'committed' (albeit in future bomb mode too) and ended it 18 hours later with the words "I'm not ready for a committed relationship".

Some added facts that might help; father abandoned family when she was a girl and recently returned. His name is mine so she won't call me by my first name. Apparently part of her very expensive weekly therapy is dealing with blackout drinking (when she first told me this she made it sounds like some recent drinking binge she was dealing with vs alcoholism). She's said multiple times 'there are things you need to know about my past' and "I suffer from shyness I'll explain why some day". She repeated on our final day 'there are things you need to know about me".

So I'm saying my initial reticence (not to mention my first name!), my emotional reactions to things I found out about her, her lack of belief in my sincerity or motivations in wanting her and, finally, my explosive (but understandable to anyone but her) reaction to her pushing me away after all that did not help and in fact hurt. As in hurt her.

But if I am to deal with her (if I get that opportunity) whilst I can and will address all of the things I did to hurt her (holding back, not acknowledging what she meant or her actions meant, not calmly discussing things) I can't not take into account that she is by admission and action a girl with very serious emotional issues, a past I can only guess at and incredible committment issues. I mean those are facts. I don't need to hit her on the head or accuse her or excuse or blame any of my behavior on those but they are facts.

I've had enough actual relationships in the past to know with any other woman I was with, when we got to keys/amazing sex/drawers/come-take-care-of-me-when-I'm'sick we'd be in a relationship now w/o likely having discussed it and w/o this insane maelstrom.  I've let people take their time when they weren't ready, people have done the same for me.

So getting it right has to encompass the whole truth even if when I get it right in person if I do I let her get to her own place on her own and just own my stuff and let her know I get how it let her down or hurt her.

As aside, despite her anger at my 'running' or lashing out, she has also been quite appreciate/surprise when we talk and I own my behavior. For instance when we had the talk that led to 'one and only' I started off asking her forgiveness for the tone of my letters and she was surprised I'd even do that. When we discussed her 'dabble date' I owned not having made clear how I felt or what I wanted and she was surprised as well. It is one reason she said yes ad she said "I never saw you acting like this and I never thought this conversation would go so well". Would that I had had the composure to do so on our 'last' day.

I am texting her today.  I can't think of anything to say but 'Hi' as an opener as even 'Hi, just checking in to see how you are" seems to much.

I know this is not a good barometer but I'm going to have to say if I STILL feel like this about her two months later, there was something real and serious there. Other than unrequited love that requires a real connection to have been in place.

I shall report back, hopefully some good news for a board that can use good news.

[Skip]

I am texting her today.  I can't think of anything to say but 'Hi' as an opener as even 'Hi, just checking in to see how you are" seems to much.

You might want make it more compelling and fun.
You: I have a question for you... .
Her: Hi. What's up
You: <something clever> I bought a large carrot cake and I can't eat it all. Can I drop some off at your house. (example only)
You: It's good... .very carrot-y. (example only)

Or are you saying that I am rejecting the truth of it and it was me. Her fear of commitment isn't something I made up or used as a crutch to explain away her running... .

I'm saying she is much more likely to be responsive if you attribute the situation to the you, and the preamble leading up to the "date", and you lashing out, rather than to attribute it to her shyness, personal issues, etc. If you put it on her, it will feel like you're not taking responsibility, there is little hope that things can change for the better, and invalidating her for not being as good a human as you. It will also validate the "you two see things differently" - not a good thing.

This is human nature.

More of the same is probably not the antidote here. But in any case, its a critical call - yours. And you have to believe what you say at some reasonable level. She knows how to read you and will know if you're faking it.

It's your call, of course. You can put it all off on her being scared and engulfed and inept at relationships and say "perhaps I could have handled it a little better".  

For today, I would keep it light.

[1stTimer]

You might want make it more compelling and fun.
You: I have a question for you... .
Her: Hi. What's up
You: <something clever> I bought a large carrot cake and I can't eat it all. Can I drop some off at your house. (example only)
You: It's good... .very carrot-y. (example only)

Not sure if I can pull that off. I could say more than one word e.g. "Hi. Was thinking of you just checking in to see how you are". But the light-heart seems like a step that would be hard to realistically get to (as if nothing ever happened).

I'm saying she is much more likely to be responsive if you attribute the situation to the you, and the preamble leading up to the "date", and you lashing out than to attribute it to her shyness, personal issues, etc. If you put it on her, it will feel like you're not taking responsibility, there is little hope that things can change for the better, and invalidating her for not being as good a human as you. It will also validate that "you two see things differently".

Yes that part (not sure if you saw my thank you skip epiphany from last night) I tootalllly get now. If we ever do get to talk I will take ownership of the breakdown, my reticine, etc. I won't cast a single word of blame or analyze her or blame my behavior on her in the slightest. I didn't do her the honor of letting her know how I felt or treating her as she deserved and my own fears are no excuse (maybe acknoweldge some of the things she did do I never did), that I did not react well or fairly and that I know she needed my understanding and strength that day.

I still think the 'differently' is not life-views but her trying to say she didn't push for a relationship I just thought so. But you know what? I'll drop whatever I think she meant by it.

IF we get to talk and IF we talk about this I will be the supportive, affirming, validating, calm, strong and caring man she liked in the first place. If she has anything to share about herself I'll listen without judgment. I can actually do this Skip and have as mentioned in past very loving relationships.

More of the same is probably not the antidote here. But in any case, its a critical call. And you have to believe what you say at some reasonable level. She knows how to read you and will know if you're faking it.

I'm actually believing it at a cellular level now.  If I could go back and find a way to be "me" and treat her the way I can and have treated other women I would and I believe would have made both of us very happy.  If I can't make an 'us' now at least maybe I can give her some of the appreciation she deserved now.

Anyway my possible texts if not hi are:

Walking around, beautiful day, it reminded me of you

or

In the park at the fountain we visited, I thought of you.

Not super light but carrot cake jokes and such are not my bag man and I do think (to me) it sort of asks to pretend nothing happened and we have been out of touch for 2 months (not counting mother's day exchange).

[1stTimer]

If you put it on her, it will feel like you're not taking responsibility, there is little hope that things can change for the better, and invalidating her for not being as good a human as you. It will also validate the "you two see things differently" - not a good thing.

Here is one thing I wanted to know on 'putting it on her'. One thing (if we get there) I'd like to say (in the right way) is to explain my reaction not in 'blaming her' but telling her that it is my fault she had no idea how much I cared about her and us, that I'd loved her vision of us that she had painted (king size bed, future, etc) more than she could have known mostly because I didn't share that with her and I was in real pain after embracing it fully to have it taken away.  That I misdirected my hurt at finding my way to her finally and losing her in the next breath and struck out at her unfairly and in the worst way and she did not deserve that.

Clearly I could work on it but is that something that gets taken as blame?

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi 1stT-
I'm sorry I haven't responded.  I had a medical emergency and spent some time in the ER on Friday/Friday night.  I tried to PM you but that function isn't working.  I'm trying to get some strength back.

I hope you're doing well.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Hi Gems, thanks for reaching out. Don't worry about my small problems here take care of your self, I am sure I speak for the board when I say get well soon!

Hi 1stT-
I'm sorry I haven't responded.  I had a medical emergency and spent some time in the ER on Friday/Friday night.  I tried to PM you but that function isn't working.  I'm trying to get some strength back.

I hope you're doing well.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes