Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 29, 2024, 03:10:15 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Survey: How do you compare?
Adult Children Sensitivity
67% are highly sensitive
Romantic Break-ups
73% have five or more recycles
Physical Hitting
66% of members were hit
Depression Test
61% of members are moderate-severe
108
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: I want to stop certain behaviours, yet I continue playing the same game.  (Read 1109 times)
snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« on: June 12, 2018, 10:39:26 AM »

This thread is the continuation of Function of the particular behaviour for pwBPD, which was locked due to reaching it's post limit.

Ok... I'm going to be direct and tell you "what it appears like" and then I'm going to make some educated guesses about "why" and "motivation"

So... .stay big picture with me... .


There are some people... when you look at their life... .time and time again they "rescue defeat from the jaws of victory"

You say you want to be independent... .have a degree... get your own job... so threats won't work anymore.  That's reasonable... that's a solid plan.  I and many other have agreed with that plan, the many times it has been proposed.

You had the classes... you had an "agreement" with your hubby to go back and do the course/exam... and then "poof"... .defeat was rescued from the jaws of victory.  My guess is that you could have gotten the four credits over the summer.  Now... .you likely have to wait for the fall... .and when something happens then, you can always wait until the spring.

I suspect this pattern has happened many times on this and other issues.

The part I would hope you reflect on, so we can all understand, is how or why on certain occasions you let victory happen.  You stand up and don't let him further hack your phone... .the threats go away... .his attitude changes... .and then you go back to "enabling" or whatever we call it.

"more often than not" you seem to "enable".  Yet sometimes you don't.  I'm not aware of a single instance where you stood up to him and he followed through on a threat (not talking about "in the moment stuff"

So... .what can we do to help you "find the person that stands up to him"?  What can you do to find that person?

4 credits... .and you dropped the course.  It's not my course and my life... but that's painful for me to write.

I said I would discuss motivation but I'm thinking I'm going to pass for now.  Why do you think you do it?  

I'm in your corner... .we all are.   I'm rooting for you!

FF

Thank you @Ff for your honesty, you pretty much repeated the same words that my best friend told me two weeks ago... .she tells me that my fear of loosing “what is”, is greater then seeing “what can be”. She calls it “self sabotage”, and I agree that on some way it is. Am I fearful that by going through I won’t be able to take care of myself? Not really. Wht I’m afraid is, by going through with completing the course and taking the time for me, he will find another enabler and I will not be able to provide the kids with same level of care and education they are accustomed to. I want to clearify, that although we always had issues of his trying to sabotage my education, when we lived in one place, I was able to do it, despite of stress. I was able to balance the time I spent with him and still attend to my studies when he was at work. It was my time, I used it wisely. In large, due to the fact that degree is in UMTS final stages, the university will still grant me the degree, even if the courses are completed elsewhere. I need to sit down and think deep, as well as speaking to academic adviser, how to do it in the shortest time possible, hopefully online.
Another thing, that you turned the mirror on to me, is enabling. Big, huge for our marriage. I’ve been bending backwards and crawling out of my skin to be “useful” to him. Otherwise he calls me, and his kids “useless”. He sends me to convenience store to buy him “smokes”, and I go... .if this isn’t enabling, I don’t know what is. I also desperately want to change our life situation, such as living in one place, yet I enable him to continue by coming along every time. I want to stop certain behaviours, yet I continue playing the same game. Before the New Year you have coached me on how to decrease verbal abuse towards me, and yes, it’s 90% better. The more he yells and insults me, the quieter my voice gets and I repeat “we don’t speak to each other in a rude, disrespectful manner, this way”. I leave when I can leave, if we are driving I keep on repeating it, and soften my features, so it doesn’t look defiant. He almost always self corrects. There isn’t any apology, but the behaviour does out. Not so easy with talking about getting a “Young p$&sy, looking for a barely legal girls to mess with and so on... .this one is hard to extinguish, it runs in the family. His uBPD dad is pushing 80 and is still putting g his mom down by yelling, calling stupid and good for nothing, telling her in front of all the extended family, I got to find you a younger replacement (uBPD mother in law is 13 years younger). Prior, all the conversation about this behaviour being inappropriate, hurtful and disruptive to our marriage ends with him saying :” if you don’t like something - here is the door, start walking”. I’m trying to square the verbal and mental abuse with the gains from this relationships, but I’m only human. It seems that he thrives the most, when I feel inadequate, broken and depressed. This is what makes him feel secure and in control.
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 11:41:57 AM »

  She calls it “self sabotage”, and I agree that on some way it is. 

Why hedge on this?

In what ways is this not "self sabotage"?

This is where I would get a cool drink... .take some time and "inventory" all the ways it is not self sabotage.

FF
Logged

Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2018, 01:11:34 PM »

I think this is explainable in terms of functional behavior. All living things continue with a behavior when there is a payoff. The dog pushes the button and gets a treat- he's going to keep pushing the button.

Some behaviors are not as easy to understand, but it helps to identify the payoff and the cost. A child might disrupt the class and get sent to the principal where he is punished. So why does he keep on doing it? Because the payoff ( getting out of classwork ) is to him greater than the cost of being punished. The behavior diminishes when the payoff is less than the cost. The teacher has to figure out the payoff  and the motivation behind it-and change that so he stops acting out in class.

Some behaviors- such as drug/alcohol addictions have a very high cost, but they also have a high payoff to the person doing them. Unless this changes, the behavior is likely to continue. This is why "hitting bottom" ( something like hospitalization or feeling awful after a drinking binge, or getting fired or divorced) is a time when an alcoholic is more motivated to change- the cost was worse than the payoff. If an addict is paired with an enabler ( who thinks they are being so supportive), they will not feel the cost of their behavior and it is likely to continue. In this sense the enabler is helping to keep the addict in their addiction.

The enabler is getting something out of their behavior too. It may appear that the cost of enabling is high, but they are also getting a payoff. The payoff can be many things- escaping their own issues by focusing on the addict's, or being in Rescue or helper mode feels good. The enabler is also motivated to change when they "hit bottom" often being emotionally exhausted or depressed.

In simple terms- you and your H are a behavioral pair, each of you engaging in behaviors that work for you. It seems the driving emotion for you is fear, fear of economic struggle should you not do what you are doing. Fear he will cheat with someone if you are not doing what you are doing. So the payoff for your behavior is relieving your fear- even if the cost is high, the relief from fear is greater.

But what is going on with your H? Behind his behaviors is also fear. Fear you will leave him, and so long as he knows where you are ( with him) and you are not taking steps to be able to financially support yourself- you can't leave him. But it probably isn't like him to express deep fears to you, and he may not even be aware of them himself so he acts in ways that control you. They work, so he keeps doing them.

What is the key to change? He is not going to change behaviors that work for him. He has you to take care of his messes, his feelings, his sexual needs. Why would he stop? You are the one who wants change. How can you address your fears so that your behavior can change? I think it is great you are working with a therapist who can help you do this.

Have you read Patricia Evans' Controlling People? It's a good explanation of the dynamics https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/controlling-people-patricia-evans/1017890486;jsessionid=A740811866CEDC4841B007CE8CADCFE8.prodny_store02-atgap06?ean=9781440501906#/
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 02:05:42 PM »

  He is not going to change behaviors that work for him. 


And they work for him... .because when he does what he does... .Snowglobe does what she does and H is "satisfied" (for the moment).

If Snowglobe doesn't do what she does... .he will have to find a "new way" to get what he wants.  Which is precisely why I implore Snowglobe to leave a "healthy pathway" open for him to get what he wants... .(asking nicely instead of threats... etc etc)

Notwendy... .this is an excellent summation.  Nice work!

FF
Logged

snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2018, 02:51:36 PM »

@NotWendy and @Formflier, your last  replies to me very very hard to read, but therapeutic too. I thank you. Shining the light on my own fear, helping me to face my fears and reasons for enabling is huge, what’s even bigger is the ration behind his control. For me, it’s the epiphany moment. Yes, of course he does what he does because he is scared of me leaving. Me being helpless financially, keeps me compliant and in check. That’s my fear of his “tightening” the screws is so great, because I know, without a doubt it will be the first lever he will pull to bring me to my senses, as he calls it. We enable each other due to many reasons, they are all complex. I have a lot of early trauma, which I own up to, he also had a lot in his formative years, but doesn’t admit. Wow, it’s a strange sensation for me, just to observe, and not try to judge him, or myself. I’m noticing how hard I’ve been fighting, and how much energy I spend on “keeping him”. I also notice how hard he tries to control and monitor me, my thoughts, my actions, my decisions. He is working out his emotional abandonment issues through keeping me at all costs.
Not Wendy, I will order this book from Amazone and read it, formflier, I think I’m ready to create a healthy plan of taking care of me and my needs. I need your help, I don’t have the skills yet. I think it’s healthier if he leaves to work alone, as opposed to me going back home alone, this might look premeditated and seen as an abandonment. I’ve grown a lot since I came here, to this board. I no longer yell, defend or explain, I don’t massage his feet when he tells me he hates me. I have you guys to mirror and help me understand my own behaviour and thought pattern. Where do I beggin?
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2018, 03:18:02 PM »

Baby steps... .one day at a time.

Several members have suggested finding a 12 step Alanon meeting. That's a great first step. A sponsor will help you get through the steps which also include looking at fears. I'd attend a couple of meetings first, and see who you think would be a good sponsor. Then ask them if they are willing to be your sponsor.

You will hear them use the term FEAR " False Evidence Appearing Real". Some fears are real. If a hungry bear is chasing you, you should feel fear. But fear of husband creating the situation your father did may or may not be. Get informed- what are the resources you would have if he cut you off? What social services, other things are available where you live. Also is he legally able to do that? I don't know the divorce laws and they vary from region to region. But some laws enforce child support and possibly some alimony. He could contest this, and you may get the minimum but what is the minimum? Knowing this will hopefully ease your fears. You may not be living at the standard you are now, but your children may get their basic needs met, and you can spend time with them.  You aren't able to be with them by doing what you are doing. Find out what the worst case scenario might be- it may not be what you fear.

Many areas have Women's support organizations that can help you gain this information. What is available near you? Calling a domestic violence hotline ( and verbal abuse is DV) may tell you who to contact to gain information.

Gaining information is not deciding to leave. It is letting you know what to do if he did cut you off. Work with your counselor to help you weight the pros and cons of your decisions with the facts that you know.

Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 03:28:28 PM »


OK... .you begin with a support structure.

bpdfamily is a wonderful thing... .and it has it's limitations as well.  it is what it is.

You need a solid T... .for in person meetings.  I hope you are still skyping and this can be transitioned to in person.

I'm also a big fan of you getting involved in Al Anon.  Very likely you will end up with a sponsor through them.

Why did I completely ignore going back to school... .or leaving or going to work with him. 

Well... .it's because it's obvious that without a solid, in person support structure... .in addition to bpdfamily... .well let's just say the likelihood of success of any plan is much lower.

Support structure first... then get a plan... .then do the plan.

FF
Logged

Radcliff
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3377


Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2018, 01:09:51 AM »

OK, I really like the way formflier just laid it out.  He reminds us of a very important point -- you must have a diverse array of support sources.  They should each be a little different.  As she was trying to build my strength to recover from an abusive situation, my therapist advised me to have at least five sources of strong support.  She counted as one of them.  Al-anon was another.  bpdfamily was my first.
 When I came to her, I was leaning very heavily on this board, but my in-person sources of support were almost nonexistent.  You understand the world of startups.  Think of it as staffing a startup.  That startup is you.  You need to fill key support roles with qualified resources.  I'm thrilled you have decided to give Al-anon a try.  I went to meetings at four different places, and the match with me ranged from terrible (a meeting that had very low attendance), to decent, to fantastic (what is now my home meeting, with a bunch of very warm, supportive folks).  The meetings you like somewhat in your initial survey can become your backup meetings if you need additional support or if your schedule fluctuates.

I've gotten two graduate degrees, one course at a time, while living with a pwBPD.  What you are doing is very tough, but definitely doable.  It takes a strong will, and lots of support.  At this point, you may as well look at yourself and your husband as active forces pushing against you to keep you from succeeding -- like a strong headwind working against a champion bicycle racer.  Build within yourself the fierce determination of a champion to finish those four courses.  Promise yourself not to quit another class.  You absolutely can do this, and there are a bunch of folks here who will be filled with joy when you do.

WW
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2018, 07:28:02 AM »

"High level" schooling while living in a house with a pwBPD is challenging... to say the least.

I'm halfway through an MBA program.  Frankly... I'm doing better than expected... my primary tool has been heavy boundaries.

Where I "wall myself off" from the family and focus on school.  My wife will try to peck at the boundary some but honestly... .I think she kinda enjoys it because it leaves her completely "in charge" of kids and stuff while I'm off studying.  Up until the point she declares me a lazy do nothing because of all the perceived undone things... that didn't get done while studying.

Unfortunately... I'm not seeing the same dynamic in your r/s since your hubby seems to want to "outsource" raising the kids.  (do you think I have this correct?)

When I do have family time, I'm much more deliberate about making it obvious that I'm available.  She often "rejects" it... .and I just move along and enjoy family time with those that have time.

So... .something I thought was interesting.  

A while back I had mentioned that my wife would benefit from a masters in teaching because her skills far outstrip her credentials.  (Her numbers improvement were tops in her school and drew interest from district... .lots of people calling asking how she did it)

Well... that was a plot to further "keep her out of the house".  So... .I'm in MBA program, oldest son in graduate program for computer engineering and oldest daughter in a graduate science program (taking organic chemistry now... uggg)... .so... .(you guys can predict this)

Guess what my wife says she wants to do now... .yep... .take some grad courses while she is working so she can get a masters.  (I guess the plot evaporated... .I so wanted to ask her about it)

Sigh... sorry for the short hijack... .my point was to illustrate this can be done but won't be easy.

FF
Logged

snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2018, 09:06:56 AM »

"High level" schooling while living in a house with a pwBPD is challenging... to say the least.

I think she kinda enjoys it because it leaves her completely "in charge" of kids and stuff while I'm off studying.  Up until the point she declares me a lazy do nothing because of all the perceived undone things... that didn't get done while studying.

Unfortunately... I'm not seeing the same dynamic in your r/s since your hubby seems to want to "outsource" raising the kids.  (do you think I have this correct?)

When I do have family time, I'm much more deliberate about making it obvious that I'm available.  She often "rejects" it... .and I just move along and enjoy family time with those that have time.


FF
Dear Formflier, thank you for illustrating the point, few things I want to elaborate on to further drive your point home.
Prior to the new business venture this had been my life too. I was studying, very successfully, without dropping courses or cutting corners. My uBPDh was rumbling, but drove kids to extracurricular, picked up dry cleaning and bbqed chicken... .those birthdays were the happiest for me, he wasn’t stressed, he cooked a modest first for my friends to come. He was never particularly interested in my field of study, but she didn’t interfere to the point that I wasn’t able to complete it. He was painted me black from time to time, but he also had his own life with hockey, 3 nights per week, which I strongly encouraged, as he is good at it. We both had our respective corners to rest upon.
I’m not sure how this transition happened, to be frank. When did his “business” became the only important aspect of his life. When did he start “outsourcing” our children, as you correctly pointed out. Yes, you are absolutely spot on. I try not to go deep into self pity, his feelings are not something I have control over. From my observations at home, when we come back, it’s me running after the kids, trying to overcompensate for the time I spend away from them, and him trying to invent some kind of urgent matter to attend to, which he wants me to do immediately. He says that the kids aren’t interested in him, or didn’t miss him, or don’t care about him, so he isn’t trying to connect. In reality, kids want and crave his attention, they just don’t know how to approach this grim looking, highly critical and always irritated man. I do my bed to facilitate their interactions for my children’s sake, I point him in a direction that they might like, remind him with mantra “you’re an adult, he/she is a child, it’s your job as a parent to find the way”. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. All I can describe is, at some point, preoccupation with money, success, business became the only goal and desire for him. People suddenly became disposable, friends insulted and put down, commitment devalued. I’m fairly certain that at some point it will become so bad for him, that a deep depression  will follow. I already lived through it. In 2007 he lost all of our savings in stock market crush. He was playing on margins and features. We needed up putting more money in, just to cover the shortage. Prior to that he spoke of himself as invincible. When it happened he “didn’t want to live or see anyone”.
I went into this “business” head first to keep our family intact. I saw it as a short term deal, him setting it up, and letting it run itself. I was mistaken. Whenever he does come back, he is in a foul mood, keeps on checking his stats and cameras, only talks about going back. As soon as he is on the road back, his mood brightens and he is cheerful, until the problems start piling up here too.
I want to finish my education, I need to finish my education, I want to live with my eyes open, feeling every moment, enjoying my family. The more I think and contemplate, the more my “wise mind” is telling me that I’m miserable because I’m not living according to my values. My children are my values, their well being is at the top of my priorities. I have a perverted way of showing it, due to my own personal fears of letting them down. Yet, by not raising them, I’m letting myself down, which creates a dissonance.
I want to start regular work outs, I want to feel good about myself, I want to practice mediation and mindfulness, I want to fill my life with other things, that doesn’t involve consoling him. My uBPDh completely depleted my resources during the last year. I’m no longer good to myself, him or the kids.
Goal’s for today:
Look after my body, eat right, walk, do something nice for me
Find and attend Alanon in the area, even though I know it’s temporary setting
Follow up on the list for individual DBT therapist on that wait list
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2018, 10:02:29 AM »


1.  Stop explaining to him how to be a parent  Is that your job?

2.  I would agree that money and success seem to be his center of gravity.  So... .quit fooling around at the margins.  (reference other thread)  He shows you success and submits billing or you will.

Either you are or aren't a partner.

You aren't an employee of his. 

He won't "give" you an equal voice... .you'll have to take it. 

He will think you are unreasonable.  Let him work through that.

FF
Logged

snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2018, 10:16:15 AM »

1.  Stop explaining to him how to be a parent  Is that your job?

2.  I would agree that money and success seem to be his center of gravity.  So... .quit fooling around at the margins.  (reference other thread)  He shows you success and submits billing or you will.

Either you are or aren't a partner.

You aren't an employee of his. 

He won't "give" you an equal voice... .you'll have to take it. 

He will think you are unreasonable.  Let him work through that.

FF
In another thread @notwendy also spoke about leaving. Now, the way I see it, either he gets paid, and I continue the support, depending on my decision. It may be phone support if I decide to stay home, or actual support, if I stay for the summer. Regardless, the school is almost out, so the kids will be with me. However, if the things get tangled and complicated, and the invoice doesn’t get filled, I leave. @notwendy suggested to make it about me. “Honey, I want to be with the kids”.
 Now the questions for FF and nw, how do I let him know that I want to be equal partner, my voice be heard and accountability from my uBPDh. Even in the form of salary?
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2018, 10:19:48 AM »

1.  Stop explaining to him how to be a parent  Is that your job?

2.  I would agree that money and success seem to be his center of gravity.  So... .quit fooling around at the margins.  (reference other thread)  He shows you success and submits billing or you will.

Either you are or aren't a partner.

You aren't an employee of his. 

He won't "give" you an equal voice... .you'll have to take it. 

He will think you are unreasonable.  Let him work through that.

FF
Please expand on each of your points
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2018, 10:44:24 AM »

Please expand on each of your points

Listen... .you just tell him succinctly.  1 or 2 sentences. 

If he wants to "invest" his earnings... vice share with family... .and you say no... .and he does it anyway... .you aren't a partner.  Honestly... .you aren't even an employee if money isn't coming your way.

Make it clear that you are NOT ok with this... .you do not agree... .and your actions will follow, should he decide to do something other than this...

Also... .let him know you are open to other ideas where hopefully you can BOTH AGREE... .that's called compromise.

He may not compromise... or he may.  You'll find out by standing up to him... .which is a fearful thing you will have to work through.

Or... .decide to accept whatever he hands out... .knowing that your voice matters little.

I hate to be this stark about it... .but without your agreement and signature... there would have been no business.  That was a benefit to him.  There is a cost to him... that you are his partner.

If he doesn't want that... .close down the business... pay back what you are owed and he can figure this out without you. 

FF
Logged

snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 11:23:07 AM »

Listen... .you just tell him succinctly.  1 or 2 sentences. 

If he wants to "invest" his earnings... vice share with family... .and you say no... .and he does it anyway... .you aren't a partner.  Honestly... .you aren't even an employee if money isn't coming your way.

Make it clear that you are NOT ok with this... .you do not agree... .and your actions will follow, should he decide to do something other than this...

Also... .let him know you are open to other ideas where hopefully you can BOTH AGREE... .that's called compromise.

He may not compromise... or he may.  You'll find out by standing up to him... .which is a fearful thing you will have to work through.

Or... .decide to accept whatever he hands out... .knowing that your voice matters little.

I hate to be this stark about it... .but without your agreement and signature... there would have been no business.  That was a benefit to him.  There is a cost to him... that you are his partner.

If he doesn't want that... .close down the business... pay back what you are owed and he can figure this out without you. 

FF
@Ff, he already paid back what he loaned, so now, he talks about this business as something he built single handily, sigh. I do have very little voice in this matter, and without financial benefits for the family (I always think of financial resources as means of better all of us as a unit, such as family vacations, paying off mortgage, son’s therapy and daighter’s Career, Ira not me indulging in self pampering or lavishing myself with unnecessary tangibles). I’m hurt and saddened by his most recent behaviours and choices, they have very little to do with us as a family unit.
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2018, 11:28:30 AM »


Ok... .he paid back the loan (the capital has been returned)... .and how much profit did you earn?

Perhaps I have misread and you now have plenty of money.

FF
Logged

snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2018, 11:43:25 AM »

Ok... .he paid back the loan (the capital has been returned)... .and how much profit did you earn?

Perhaps I have misread and you now have plenty of money.

FF
He repaid the loan, and previous loans he borrowed for other business start up, I have repaid all of the amount to the line of credit. Combined, I still have 40% of the outstanding mortgage on the house. No extra money left, he is holding on to the assets and shares
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2018, 11:44:35 AM »

Ok... .he paid back the loan (the capital has been returned)... .and how much profit did you earn?

Perhaps I have misread and you now have plenty of money.

FF
I didn’t make any profit, only got back what I took out during past 8 years. He had started other business ventures that crushed and burnt, so the amount was pretty substantial
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2018, 02:17:44 PM »

I didn’t make any profit, only got back what I took out during past 8 years. He had started other business ventures that crushed and burnt, so the amount was pretty substantial

So... .why not?

You are in business with him for what purpose?

FF
Logged

snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2018, 03:54:19 PM »

So... .why not?

You are in business with him for what purpose?

FF
I’m not sure how to respond to your question, really. I was so firm in my position as his rescuer, that every time a new and bright idea came along I was considering it my duty to help him achieve his dreams and visions. We have a different idea of marriage, in general, I guess. I see myself as his copilot, partner, who can step in and help him when and if needed. He sees me as useful or useless.
I am in business with him to help him with money management, risk management, damage control, second opinion just to name a few. I want to see him succeed and prosper, so my children can also rip the fruits of our joint effort. I never asked him to pay me back, the way I saw it, it is a mutual line of credit to our family home. Now that you ask this question, and I come to think of it, I always took out the loans for him, under mine name, as he was a bankrupt when we got married. He had an issue with money management, I had an issue with poverty, and fear of debt, so we worked out well. I never overindulged and he trusted me to make a sound decision. His partner is on the way home right now, likely to try and convince me to make my uBPDh take the deal.
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2018, 04:09:18 PM »


I am in business with him to help him with money management

Good... then help him with money management.  5 months pay is out there.  He get's it... or you get it.

FF
Logged

snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 07:20:32 PM »

Good... then help him with money management.  5 months pay is out there.  He get's it... or you get it.

FF
I was on my way to start walking to a meeting when the partner came home. As I predicted, he started talking me into taking the deal. I will have more info for you all tomorrow, I read the corresponding post. It’s interesting to see the dynamics between the 3 of us, when I cautiously pay attention
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Radcliff
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3377


Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 08:54:33 PM »

Snowglobe, you are right, you are not living according to your values.  I recall this coming up in one of your threads several months back as well.  This is hard.  But that's where you want to be headed -- actions and values aligned.

I'm fuzzy on what this new deal is, perhaps there are details in another thread?  I hope this is not a new deal where you take on more debt for him?  That needs to stop right away.  You are not speaking of him as a great investment, regarding his level of decision making and responsibility.  Also, if he is able to take someone else's money and does not feel the pain of losing it, there is no closed loop learning -- it is enabling bad performance with no incentive to improve.

WW
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 09:06:56 PM »


"I will consider a future deal after the 5 months billing has been submitted and paid."

Nothing further should be discussed... .nothing.

You are being played...

FF
Logged

snowglobe
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1097



« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2018, 07:53:20 AM »

"I will consider a future deal after the 5 months billing has been submitted and paid."

Nothing further should be discussed... .nothing.

You are being played...

FF
And here it goes,
His partner arrived and pressed the conversation with urgency. I wasn’t going to speak to either of them till the evening, especially since my uBPDh was still at work. Reluctantly I sat down to listen. He began with intimidation and questions: if my uBPDh or me have something better aligned for us not to agree to this deal. Or that regardless of my uBPDh’s decision he wasn’t gonna pass on it. I said that without the pay out of the previous contract I wasn’t ready to start discussing it. He was taken aback. We talked about the amounts, allegedly he only got invoices filled till April. I told him to start billing for May and June. He agreed on pay out within two weeks up to April, and in another two till June. That was done... .we talked about rotating schedule, my d15 is competing in our work city, so he needs to vacate the condo for my children to stay comfortably. There are some expenses I covered out of my pocket, so that’s being reimbursed as well. When uBPDh came home, he looked grim. He didn’t want to look or speak to me. I dropped the vall on communication, he looked wounded, not only it was a hard pill to swallow financially, I also chastised him. When we went to bed last night I spoke in a BIFF way with him. I said that I could have handled our exchange better, I didn’t find the right words. Sometimes you don’t... .and went to sleep. He is beginning to thaw, asking me for shirts and socks. I am fairly certain he will take this deal... .he doesn’t have anything better aligned and he still has other commitments here at work that he will need to fulfil. It will not be a huge contract, more of a bonus. I will get paid, but I will need to have a sit with myself and think of what’s next for me and the children to come in the upcoming year. I thank you for being my Life boat when I’m feeling lost not only in BPD, but also in life dilemma and decisions.
Logged

       “Aimer, ce n’est pas se regarder l’un l’autre, c’est regarder ensemble dans la même direction.” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2018, 08:21:05 AM »


When you get paid... .you'll be ready to discuss and/or take action on the next deal.

Up until YOU getting paid... .it's all just talk.

Leave the motivation up to him/them to get you paid.

It's not up to them to make sure YOU are not getting played... .it's up to YOU.

Solid work making it clear that kids aren't living there with him.  That is wise.  Once he moves out... .my advice is that YOU never again share a home or any type of lodging with him.

Going forward... if "business" is to continue, you must clarify that there will be boundaries for you... .there is a work life... and a home life.  If you are "approached" in your "HOME" about business... without your hubby present... .that in and of itself is proof that you need to avoid living with him.  Not to mention all the other lovely attributes he has.

And... perhaps he is a good "businessman"... .perhaps he can produce money... .by holding to your boundaries you will find out.


FF
Logged

Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2018, 06:11:12 AM »

You seem pretty good at holding the line when it comes to the business transactions: stating what you want to see happen. What you can't control is your husband and his business partner.

You are skilled in deciding your own boundaries about the business and your children's needs: competition needs, therapy for autism.

I found that for me, even though I had co-dependent tendencies- if something came up to an absolute boundary, I did hold my grounds. Our absolute boundaries are individual-we all may have different ones, so they are not a right or wrong thing but something that is a core value.

One of them for me was when my BPD mother began to enlist my children as emotional caretakers for her and manipulated them. However, I was naive when I did push back- not aware of the drama triangle. I don't regret standing up for what is important to me, but I know I would have done things differently if I was more aware of how my actions were perceived.

If we begin to feel in "Victim" mode, we push back aggressively. This can have initial results, but we become the persecutor on the triangle. The person with BPD is in victim mode- and they push back aggressively. It becomes a circular argument with each person reacting to the other.

When you chastise your H, he responds by curse words, insults and name calling. You either feel hurt or get more aggressive. I think it is important to hold your boundary, but finding another way to communicate and not become reactive to the responses helps keep us off the triangle and may be more effective. It isn't being soft, it's being firm but with some skill. The lessons on this board are helpful for that.

Your list of things you wish to do sounds great. When making changes though, it is hard to do everything at once. It would help to pick one thing, and when you feel more skilled at the one thing, then add another. Sometimes it is small. For me, it was cooking. That sounds strange. I actually like to cook and prefer to cook for the family (I'm a good cook) but I wasn't cooking out of a desire to be caring. I was cooking out of fear, of my H being angry. I was cooking to manage his feelings and I was feeling resentful. Strange to feel resentful for doing something I would ordinarily do anyway, but the motive- fear, rather than choice or willingness was behind that. One of the first things a MC told me was - if you are feeling resentment - don't cook dinner. I was scared- he would yell. She said - let him yell. ( there was no threat of physical abuse). Due to how I was raised, I am afraid of anger. I had to work on that. So while your list is great, the first step to overcome your fears might be something smaller. Do you enjoy cooking for him and his partner? If not and you resent it, take a small step and don't cook dinner one night. Go out by yourself- to get a bite to eat, take a walk, just get some peace. . Let him find his own socks. Yes, he might have a fit, and even threaten drugs/porn/sex somewhere- but you have no control over that and he may or may not do it. Letting go of providing the socks might be less scary than tackling the finance issues.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2018, 06:28:37 AM »


There is a big difference between "fight" and "firm". 

Perhaps consider "fight" and "reactive" as cousins or the same thing.  Seems like several times there have been comments about "I couldn't keep my mouth shut" or that you "had to" do or say things, based on the "outrageousness" of something your hubby did.


My recollection of those times it's likely there was legitimate stress being experienced by your husband as he grappled with the impact of information and struggled to approach a decision (such as changing market conditions)

What would your relationship be like if instead of "nuking" those times with your words, you were supportive and listened.

Something to think about.

FF

Logged

Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2018, 06:55:42 AM »

Reminds me of an often quoted line from the AA Big Book : “And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone – even alcohol” pg.84.


I had a hard time identifying with that one. I thought I was more of a doormat, letting people walk all over me. But I could also get verbally aggressive in defense if I felt pushed. There is a place for fighting- physical defense, but I was not really in physical danger. Maybe my fight was more about my own fears. Sometimes when we let go of things we can't control anyway, the outcome could be surprisingly OK, not as we feared, or it might not be OK. The thing is- we don't know, but we don't know as it is. We can't really control someone else.

By stopping "fighting" your H, you allow him to make some decisions.  What would he do if your D discussed the cost of her activities with him directly? He may say no, or he - faced with saying no to his daughter- might think about it. What if you left him to deal with his partner. For now, you play the "bad guy" in their triangle,  but if the partner walks all over your H, he may finally see the guy for who he is. There could be an initial loss in the beginning, to your D, to your finances but there could also be learning for your H in this. He sees the tears well up in her eyes, he sees his partner being a jerk. You think you know the outcome, and maybe you do, but we really can't know all the possibilities.

It's a bit like parenting. We protect our children from real dangers but sometimes experience is the best teacher. If a child forgets his coat, and his mother runs after him to the school bus with his coat, he won't know how it feels when he forgets it. If he forgets it, and experiences feeling cold without it, he is more likely to remember it next time.

If your husband doesn't wash his socks, then he has dirty socks. He won't learn to keep track of his own socks unless he sees what happens when he doesn't. If you do this for him, he has no reason to take care of his socks. He is a grown man and quite capable of making sure he has clean socks.
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!