"You are the dictator" - anyone heard that too?

[Tram]

Hi there,

I'm in a marriage with a significant other (SO), F, with considerable features of high functioning borderline style. There are our two under 15-kids at home.

It has taken me years to understand some basics, but for the last year especially, I have utilized assertiveness strategies, validation as well as strict limit setting in order to improve the life of my children (who are much lesser targeted, but exposed to 'fall-outs' and myself and there have been improvements - 'under sufficient magnification'.

My SO has, among other things, a years long history of demanding 'to talk about us', which used to be code for a 'Gish-gallop' of 'sheit-shoveling' for many years.
I understand, there are truly felt, not necessarily reality based, grievances and the common collection of perceived rejections that will typically serve as the preliminary to enter the 'Gish-gallop'.
The concepts of autonomy and consent don't seem to enter her mind and since _I_ have made requests to have conversations about topics (it's really only one) close to my heart, she has turned to completely ignoring any of my requests.

Whenever I refuse to comply with her demand, ie because the kid are around or I'm home after a 12.5hrs-plus night shift, I find myself accused of 'dictatorship', controlling her, telling her what to do. It looks like the typical "you are a bully because you stop me from bullying you"-kind of response and it is of course completely contraindicated to address that point directly.

My response so far has been to consequently - and if needed - physically disengaging (walk away), thereby triggering of course a further rant and not engage for a few hours, maybe half a day.

I was wondering whether others have similar experiences and what your strategy has been and how well it's worked for you.

Thanks in advance.

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[pearlsw]

Hi Tram,

Well, look at you! We look like twins!  

I'd say one way to enhance your strategy here is to let her know, when you exit a conversation, that you'll be back after a certain amount of time.

In my case, I've let my SO know he can come to me at any time, that I am never so angry he can't approach me. This helped a lot. He has strong abandonment issues and triggering them can lead to more drama. I can't always avoid his drama, but I can make it safe to discuss issues and that is what I do... .while still preserving my right to speak my mind.

Other members may have other ideas. I hope they will share them with us! We can all use help on this stuff!

with compassion, pearl.

[WileyCoyote]

Hi Tram,
  This is such a consistent thing for me it's almost humorous.
Any time I dare express a desire of my own and make a request I am told "Oh it ALWAYS has to be your way!". Lol

Sometimes my wife even says "Yes master, I almost  forgot my place!"

Kind of gives you insight in how she would really like ME to respond to her demands(definitely not requests).

This is classic gaslighting

It's an attempt to make you question reality and make you think ":)o I always have to have my way?" To make you doubt your own needs. To make you feel selfish.  When of course they are projecting their selfishness on to you.

For me,. I just say... ." Mind doing  it anyway?".  
Or if it is the yes master comment... .if she still does me the favor I am asking, I just say "thank you"

I address the actions, not the emotions as much as I can.

Any thoughts about her actions after reading that link?

[Tram]

Hi Tram,

Well, look at you! We look like twins!  

Yup - thought just the same a little while ago... . 

I'd say one way to enhance your strategy here is to let her know, when you exit a conversation, that you'll be back after a certain amount of time.

I have come across that strategy and it has - in theory - always made sense to me but I have not bee successful in practice since attempts to not engage are dismissed as delaying-tactics or attacked as avoidance.
These things tend to go down quickly and there is generally little time to respond.
While I'm writing this, formulating and re-formulating, I realize how much I still assume this to be a failure on my part.
Maybe I need to 'package' a response that I can 'plant out' on the spot when it happens like "I will take my leave for now and we can continue this conversation tomorrow, if you wish."

In my case, I've let my SO know he can come to me at any time, that I am never so angry he can't approach me. This helped a lot.

How exactly can you do that? My SO tends to heat up in an instant and will typically not allow you to speak a sentence uninterrupted.

Cheers

[Tram]

Hi Tram,
  This is such a consistent thing for me it's almost humorous.
Any time I dare express a desire of my own and make a request I am told "Oh it ALWAYS has to be your way!". Lol

Sometimes my wife even says "Yes master, I almost  forgot my place!"

Thanks for sharing, WileyCoyote.
I'd imagine this kind of sarcasm to be quite toxic. It seem quite an aggressive move in order to strip validity from your request.

This is classic gaslighting

It's an attempt to make you question reality and make you think ":)o I always have to have my way?" To make you doubt your own needs. To make you feel selfish.  When of course they are projecting their selfishness on to you.

For me,. I just say... ." Mind doing  it anyway?".  
Or if it is the yes master comment... .if she still does me the favor I am asking, I just say "thank you"

I address the actions, not the emotions as much as I can.

Any thoughts about her actions after reading that link?

I feel that my partner really has no concept of autonomy.
I have seen her run into difficulties at her workplace for having little sense for boundaries. It's usually tolerated due to her tremendous, almost self-sacrificial willingness to help and work-ethic.
The 'dark side' shows where she allows the underlying resentment to come out, which typically effects the family.
She has basically ruined it with all of them (the family is quite small) - and of course, it's all their 'fault'. In reality it's her choice - except with her brother, who seems to have decide to cut her lose.

The overwhelming doubt of ones own wrong-doings is a thing of the past for me. I have always been prone, even without that and I try to maintain a reality-based sense for my shortcomings, but guilt induction works much less nowadays.
So I feel that gaslighting may come in to it but does not play a main part.

Thanks for the thought!

Cheers

[WileyCoyote]

Yeah man.  Add on that my wife is black and I am white and then think  about how even more toxic that comment really is.  Geesh!


This may sound harsh, but I'll give you something to think about.  If it is a thing of the past,. Then being called a dictator shouldn't matter to you.    

What does it matter if she thinks you are a dictator.  It's not true right?  And you shouldn't have to try and prove it.

I don't know how many useless fact based rebuttals to similar accusations I had before I realized what I was doing. 

[Tram]

Yeah man.  Add on that my wife is black and I am white and then think  about how even more toxic that comment really is.  Geesh!

Oh dear. I don't know what to say... .

This may sound harsh, but I'll give you something to think about.  If it is a thing of the past,. Then being called a dictator shouldn't matter to you.    

What does it matter if she thinks you are a dictator.  It's not true right?  And you shouldn't have to try and prove it.

I don't know how many useless fact based rebuttals to similar accusations I had before I realized what I was doing. 

I agree. And I have long given up to reason with what is essentially un-reasoned.
Guilt-inducton is a thing of the past, not the accusations. I'm used to those, but I have learned they precede a shift to worse things and that it's time to 'get out of it' - or do something else that other people might have successfully tried.

[pearlsw]

Yup - thought just the same a little while ago... . 

I have come across that strategy and it has - in theory - always made sense to me but I have not bee successful in practice since attempts to not engage are dismissed as delaying-tactics or attacked as avoidance.
These things tend to go down quickly and there is generally little time to respond.
While I'm writing this, formulating and re-formulating, I realize how much I still assume this to be a failure on my part.
Maybe I need to 'package' a response that I can 'plant out' on the spot when it happens like "I will take my leave for now and we can continue this conversation tomorrow, if you wish."

How exactly can you do that? My SO tends to heat up in an instant and will typically not allow you to speak a sentence uninterrupted.

Cheers

Hi Tram,

That was something I had to establish during a white phase when he seemed open to healing and repair. He is also a bit more self aware than a lot of the partners I hear described on this site. He knows there is something going wrong in his brain, and he gets that his behaviors are too much - sometimes. He will also take all of this "understanding" away in an instant when it suits him.

But I try to hold his hand whenever possible, that can help a lot to calm discussions, but is not always possible. He's told me before that I can "get him back" by just going to him and putting my hand on his back. I have to admit I almost never do this though because if he is really upset he won't let me near me.

Usually though when things break down, he will inevitably come back to me and lay close to me silently, wanting to be touched and comforted. I do this for him. Even if I am upset and hurt. I try to see him as human and I set my ego aside about it.

There are times he is too upset, and this won't work - leaving and saying I'll come back. He will up the ante and do something destructive to keep me engaged if he can, wants to demand more attention, behave as a petulant child really. This is when some of the worst things happen. I find that validating can help a lot though. Letting him feel listened to makes difference.

Keep describing things here, there is a lot of wisdom here and people will offer insights. Nothing will always work, but I know I have cut down on the some of the trouble by keeping myself calm and trying to see clearly. The more you can at least slow down your reaction times, the more you have time to try to offer a better response.

take care, pearl.

[WileyCoyote]

Guilt-inducton is a thing of the past

Got it.  On to the next step then.  

I think you know what you need/want to do.  If I am hearing you correctly, you are asking, How do I start doing it?

I can only speak for me but I will share my approach.

You can always wait for a time of calm to try to bring up this new boundary. (I'm here to talk about anything, as long as we are talking.  No name calling, or personal attacks, or yelling, or violence)  But be realistic here, this conversation could cause dysregulation, so be prepared for this to be the first time you demonstrate this level of self respect as soon as you communicate it.

For me I say: "I think emotions are running too high.  If you would like to talk about this later I am willing.  Right now I am going to go xxxx.  I will be back in xxxx minutes/hours."   You MUST follow through here.  Remove yourself.  There will be things said as you walk away to try to suck you back in.   Things like "of course you don't want to talk.  you don't love me."  or worse.  But I think we all know there was no "talking" happening here.  So mentally prepare yourself for this.

Just say what you need to say.  Be genuine. and Exit.  Even while your SO talks over you.  Just say it and do it.  :)on't stop when the talking over happens.  Just say it.  And do it.  It is up to them to hear it.  You don't have to take more abuse to wait for pause to explain yourself.  Waiting for that pause is showing them respect while they are hosing you down with disrespect.   Show yourself the respect.  Remove yourself.

And make sure you really return when you said.  Show you mean what you say.  

Then try "would you like to talk now?"

Rinse and repeat... .but don't force the issue. If you return and your SO is now cheerful and appears to have moved on.  Or says something like, I don't care about that anymore.  Let it go.  Whatever skill they have used to self regulate has worked.  Let them have that success.  It's annoying, and feels unfair, but things aren't fair.  You are gaining something more important than "winning" an argument here.

Or, you can just start doing it and discuss it later when questioned about this new boundary.  Be prepared for the same intense backlash.

STAY CONSISTENT once you have demonstrated your newfound boundary of self respect.

It will most likely get worse before it gets better once you start.  But you can do this.

[WileyCoyote]

I'll also add.   If the talking over and yelling escalates as soon as they hear you communicate the new boundary just remember this.  You might not get that well formed statement out the first time.   i.e. "I think this conversation isn't constructive.  We should try and talk later when emotions aren't so high. sound good to you?"  LOL

You might only be able to get out.   "Let's talk later.  Be back in xxx"  :)on't beat yourself up about this.  You did it... .it's the first step.  You'll get better at it.

There is nothing wrong with keeping it simple.  My T tells me that in those moments of dysregulation. The simpler the message the better.

Also,  it has slowly been showing signs of being productive for me.  I am at a stage now where I can get a "please don't talk to me like that" in there sometimes.  And SOMETIMES that works!  when it doesn't I move on to the exit plan.  This has taken about 6 months.

[Tram]

Hi Tram,

That was something I had to establish during a white phase when he seemed open to healing and repair. [... .]

But I try to hold his hand whenever possible, [... .]

I find that validating can help a lot though. Letting him feel listened to makes difference.

Keep describing things here, there is a lot of wisdom here and people will offer insights. Nothing will always work, [... .]

take care, pearl.

Your thoughts are much appreciated - thanks for sharing!

I have come to completely avoid any physical contact for a long time even though I have a very soft spot for it. I don't do it and haven't done even a light touch in about two years.
This was in part due to the realization of her distortions relating to intimacy and I saw no other way of protecting myself from those.
 
At some time, she literally demanded intimacy, attacking me verbally for 'withholding' what she obviously perceived to be her right, while also making threats of to accuse in relation to past intimate encounters that made me pull all pins on that.

Our relationship had seriously broken down in my view and the disregard for my autonomy cautioned me. (Hence, my post was  intended for the ':)etaching from a Failed Relationship'-board and I must have made some mistake when posting and appears to have been moved here by an admin, I think.)

The only exception is when she has night mares and starts screaming in terror that I will come and stop those by physically shaking her to wake her up, which happens a few times every couple of weeks.

I see your point - no way works all the time - and I was mostly hoping to hear other peoples experiences and therefore: thank you for it.

Providing a listening experience hasn't been my strong side, but I do think I have - maybe I have too high expectations. The best outcome is for it to work one way - I'll be listening and that will, at times, be taken up on when she has stress with other people, but it seems to never have any effect on anything beyond that.

Cheers

[Tram]

[... .] I can only speak for me but I will share my approach.
[... .]
It will most likely get worse before it gets better once you start.  But you can do this.

Thanks a lot for sharing - that's what I'm looking for. I understand it's different for everybody but there are also a lot of similarities and I curious how others handle these situations.

Since I went through a phase of reading a lot on this board years ago and familiarized myself with some principles of assertiveness, I was able to practice some of it for about the last year. Overall, there has clearly been progress. The almost daily fits of screaming, even throwing things, brutal verbal insults, locking me in the backyard, slamming the door into my face, freezing-treatment (while absolutely lovely to friends etc... .) has been replaced by angry ignoring most of the time.
It's now possible I return to pick up a topic later but find I'm struggling to do that.
Even though she used to demand we 'talk about us' for years, she will ignore my (texted) requests to have a conversation. I depend on her consent, which she does not want to give while claiming to care for her children and my parents, to be able to travel overseas for my kids and elderly parents to meet, probably the last time.
I realize that I might not be able to achieve this goal but I'm willing to learn and improve on strategies.

[... .] If the talking over and yelling escalates as soon as they hear you communicate the new boundary just remember this. [... .] "Let's talk later.  Be back in xxx"  [... .]

There is nothing wrong with keeping it simple.  My T tells me that in those moments of dysregulation. The simpler the message the better.

Also,  it has slowly been showing signs of being productive for me.  I am at a stage now where I can get a "please don't talk to me like that" in there sometimes.  And SOMETIMES that works!  when it doesn't I move on to the exit plan.  This has taken about 6 months.

Congratulations!
I think I have made similar experiences except that I cannot return anything on the risk of escalation and that she - now - will not even engage in a conversation about 'consent to travel'.

Cheers