This isn't always easy to follow for me either I must admit! I'd like to take the temperature down a bit and ask a few more questions... .
Likely my fault for my rambling ways
I do appreciate the support as always, it just got a little ping-pongy with one person insisting I was dealing with BPD/Player who was likley coldly enjoying my discomfort and then another insisting I needed to man up and start courting this girl I wronged. I'm struggling with that balance as it is as they are two entirely different scenarios and choosing wrong can get me very hurt here.
Is this woman or her mom from a different culture from you or the same culture? And if not, is is possible they have their way and in the world and you yours and you can live and let be in terms of how they seeing courting vs. how you do?
Same culture. I don't object to courting Pearl, I like it. I like the whole man-woman thing (my asides aside) I just don't like in general how these days it HAS become one-sided as men are expected to still be men and treat women like women except when they shouldn't treat them like women and at no point should men expect to be treated like men. I only dated one woman who knew how to reciprocate and she, not surprisingly, was European.
Anyway it was not a difference in how we all saw courting. I'm trying to clarify that my ENTIRE issue with her was that from the start she did not respect or care what my limitations were (I've spelled out in my last spew just how horrid circumstances were in my life) it was just what she needed from me that mattered. "Courting" a man would include noticing where he is, who he is, what he needs no? That is what makes a man want to 'court' you; you bring something to his life. Not a body, not a face, not sex. You make him want to want you in his life and he then shows you he does. Simply formula. She just started with (literally) "I like you you should ask me out" or "I like you you need to court me". She ignored everything I said was ready for and where I came from to pursue what she wanted, and her mother/sister (according to her of course) pushed me to make the gestures she and they wanted to show her I wanted to give her what she wanted that I wasn't ready for. Make sense? It doesn't make a man feel wanted or known or noticed or cared for or WANT to court. Telling a man you know lost his last love because he lost his career/money and she left him 'are you going to buy us a house when you make it?' is not sensitive. Telling a man who has told you the horrors of the last ten years in NY and how he needs to move to get a fresh start and live in peace and joy without reminders of searching for his dad in the streets that he has to stay because your job is here and you haven't even slept with him is not caring about him it is caring about yourself. Telling him he needs to start courting you when he is telling you he is not ready to date yet is not caring about him.
Isn't it possible, in their eyes, the mom was looking out for the daughter? And even if you think they are horribly clueless and out to get you... .um... .that they are nevertheless approaching the world from their perspective and you yours? No need for giving a lot of energy to black hole if it's pointless, ya know?
Yes of course. They wanted me to want and court her because she wanted to be wanted and courted. I don't blame them for wanting to make sure I was treating her right and not just 'using her'. My position was since that is where I was and I was giving greatly anyway, that they might take the perspective that this man came along who treated their daughter/sister with the utmost respect, who did NOT take advantage of her sexually as most men would have, who took his time to listen to her w/o judgment, to contribute greatly to improving her financial situation and very life, that was attentive and caring in bed and out, that offered to take her to the emergency room when she was sick, etc. In other words, notice that you have a really good man in your life, fancy dinners aside. If I were her brother or father I'd have said 'don't listen to your mom, hold on to that man, men don't treat you like that unless they CARE for you and if you give him the space to open his heart he will and you'll get all the courting you can handle' There are plenty of other men who'd wine her and dine her and care not a whit for her and be nowhere to be found when she needed to be taken care of, listened to, supported and wouldn't care a whit about her pleasure or life.
In any event, this still gets boiled down to courting
which is not the issue between us. YES I needed to at some point acknowledge there was more, yes I needed to acknowledge the things she did as a woman for me, I get I dropped the ball there. But this whole debacle doesn't boil down to that.
Dating is what it is. It is unbalanced, unfair, there are competing traces of various historical/social eras simultaneously operating. It is what it is. It is a larger system and we are just operating inside it, sometimes we try to resist, sometimes we get burned, sometimes we fall right in line with the messages society gives us. It's a real mixed bag for all. I emphasize "all".
I don't know if that is quite true these days. I believe as I've said women have managed to implement 1/2 a paradigm or reject 1/2 a paradigm if you will. it makes dating horrendously confusing for men and in fact very unsatisfying.
I know I found dating in the US pretty confusing at times myself. You reminded me of a time when my older brother's friend had made some moves on me and my brother reacted by insisting this boy take me out. He did. My older bro would still step in, even with my SO, and set him straight. And so would my younger bro for that matter. It's just how it is in some cultures. Don't ask me why - too large a story to tell. History.
Got it. But you know what doesn't happen anymore? The sister doesn't jump in and tell the girl how she should treat the brother. Because that would be 'sexist' to expect a woman to act like a woman and treat a man they way a man deserves to be treated. In fact, just the opposite. I grew up with three sisters. If one of my girlfriends got up to get me a beer they'd SCREAM at her "You aren't his slave! He can get his own beer!". Naturally they'd also make sure I walked her home :| Imagine if I'd done that with their boyfriends? ":)on't walk her home you aren't her SLAVE!" ":)on't pay for her dinner let her pay for YOUR Dinner!". We have at least 2 generations of women raised just like this; hackles raised at the slightest suggestion there is any way for a woman to act and any way to treat a man who are yet somehow 100% clear on how men should act and treat ladies. Again it makes for a very unsatisying dating experience for men raised to treat women like women.
Let me boil this down a bit. What do you need now? Support? Encouragement? Ideas? A place to vent? What would get you through this tough time and keep things moving forward? Remember what Prince said, "“we’re all gathered here together to get through this thing called life" buddy, we're all family here.
I appreciate it pearl I just dont know. What I do need to do is step away from the 'I messed up I need to court her' because I/we forget just how hurtful/disturbing her behavior was. IF we get back to a place we can be together I can treat her the way I planned on treating her when we agreed to be together; with my arms down and embracing fully what we had and giving her all I had to give as a man, a partner and a friend.
I'm doubting she has done any of the work I have since we split. Where is her 'wow I treated you so bad I realized why can we try again?' I know I know I'm not supposed to even want to hear that or discuss it with her just let her know I understand and get her but where IS it? So where would that leave us? I'm really not sure on my next move, I'm really not sure why this has me so wrapped up. I do know the texts at first made my heart soar and then crash as they are almost a microscosm of the whole relationship. If I may put them in order/context so if we discuss this further (what are the odds? ), you can see why I am where I am:
Me (after two months of NC other than the 'nice' letter and expecting no reply, a much belated reply, or a piss-off loser):
Walking in the park
Beautiful day
it make me think of you
Hope all is wellHer (1/2 hour later):
Hi! Thank you I hope you are well too such a nice day. Talk to you later?Super happy, no delay, opening up dialog. I've texted the girl literally 1000 times over 2 years, I can read the emotion, my first reaction was 'she is in love'. In any event seemed very happy to hear from me as if she too has been crushed by this hoping for reconnection and w/o prompting opened up talking. In other words not just 'I'm fine thanks how are you?'
Me:
That would be niceNot wanting to read too much into the 'talk to you later?' but knowing full well it meant 'can we meet and talk?'
Her (next 11am!):
Would you like to meet at (the place me met) Soon?Means she thought about it all day, and first thing next morning reached out to meet me, at our place, rather than wait and see if I picked up on the 'talk later?'. In other words, the girl has been hoping I'd contact her and wants to see me more thatn she wants to play hard to get,protect herself, make me work for it, etc.
Me (1/2 hour later and confused if she means soon today since she asked mid-day or "soon"
Sure! Soon as is now/brunch or soon as in later this week?I asked because I was downtown and if she meant brunch which seemed possible given the mid-day request i needed to get uptown ASAP.
NO REPLY ALL DAY
Me (the next day to be more proactive and since clearly she did not mean brunch):
Annnd another great day. Does Thursday night work for you?NO REPLY ALL DAY
Her (midnight same day finally)
Hi. Lots happening. Can't make firm plans.Me (right after):
No worries. Reach out when you can or when you want, I am here.Now if you remember the whole sitch' this is almost a microcosm of what happened. Slammed over the head when I accept the come hither. Lucy/Charlie Brown/Football. Entire tone changed. Door closed AND ambiguously in fact it is a mirror of "I can't commit" after asking me to. The only difference is this time instead of saying "Goddamn screw you and your come hither go yonder I'm going yonder to date!" I tried to be calm, supportive, and let her know I'm here when she wants. The thing is the 'lots happening' comment is BS. I replied to her 20 minutes after she reached out to me Pearl. Nothing came up in that timeframe to make her suddenly unavailable to me. She just ran the other way. Or set me up. Which is where I exited last time right?
So point is this does not suggest or lead to 'courting' or 'being a man'. To me it screams CAUTION because this is why I LEFT. And I have no way back in really; ignore her 'can't make firm plans' and ask out? That is not respectful. Wait for her to contact me since I said 'reach out when you want?' That puts her back into chasing me which I gather could be the reason she backed off in the first place as she realized she was 'doing it again' (or Mom/Sis slapped her and said the same).
My issue Pearl or what I am looking for is how to traverse what are two entirely different paths here; dealing with full on BPD who is messing with me or at least going through idealize/devalue cycles on me whilst messing around with God knows who else or dealing with sweet but damaged girl whom I helped hurt through my own fears but with whom I have a real connection. Both seem possible. I'm still connected/hurting/pining after over two months to my utter shock. I go on barbecues or events and I can only think she should be at my side and the events become melancholy because of it. I got some indicaiton that she is just as hurt/connected/missing me by her texts and the speed at which she tried to reconnect. On the other hand the immediate pull back could be BPD. So which one do I assume? If I assume BPD and do NC and she is in fact hurt and scared girl with real connection I hurt her. I hurt me. I hurt US. If I assume hurt and scared girl and she is pwBPD I am walking myself into a nightmare. So you see my conundrum here. Two incompatible possibilities and if I choose wrong I hurt myself in both cases and her in one.
Now, I did draft a letter to her which I may send and send with flowers 'on her doorstep'. It is essentially a "mea culpa" and an "if you want to still see what we have I do too". Because otherwise I either sit and wait for her to make a/the move which she might be very unwilling to do a second time around or push her with texts trying to figure out exactly what to say or not to say and when and how to traverse in a text the ambiguous 'can't make firm plans' (ever?). it will end this or start this and I'd imagine would reveal which of the two I'm dealing with in any event without some protracted guessing game. I think wherever she is now I am on her mind, our past and the texts indicate that so I want to strike now or never.
I'd love if I could PM you that as the content itself is private and has nothing to do with the bettering per se, but I'd love to have a woman read it and one who understands the situation to boot. May I do that?
