The custody drama continues

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Short recap for those who aren't familiar with my story:  uBPDstbxw and I have been separated since the end of January.  She moved to another state to stay with a family member, and has since found a job and her own place.

There's a 12-month temporary custody order in place for S5.  I have primary custody, but she is allowed liberal visitation at my discretion.

Early in the process, I informally agreed to her getting him over 2 separate weeks during the spring, and then for the summer.  Nothing was ever put in writing.

As the school year was nearing its end (S5 was finishing Pre-K), I tried contacting my L to get his advice on how long he would recommend S5 stay with uBPDstbxw.

My case is pretty much in a holding pattern right now (even though uBPDstbxw is well beyond the time limit to officially file an answer to my petition for divorce, the judge wants to give her more time before a hearing is scheduled).  And since L has been busy with other clients, he never got back to me.

I was obviously getting frustrated at my calls and emails going unanswered.  I was hoping to have my question answered before I dropped S5 off with his mom, but it eventually was a couple weeks after.  I finally just decided to drive by his office and drop in.

He wasn't there the first time, but he was the second (this past Friday).  He apologized profusely and explained how busy he'd been.  We ended up having a pretty informative and productive meeting.

He recommended that I get S5 back ASAP, but also give uBPDstbxw a reasonable amount of notice.

While of course I can't wait to have S5 back, I have been enjoying the past few weeks of "me" time.  I'm a college professor on summer break.  I'm teaching an online class, but am otherwise free to go out an explore and really re-discover who I am after years of codependency.  I'd planned some activities (e.g., training for my first 5K in years) that wouldn't really work while also taking care of a 5-year-old.

Fortunately, I had an appointment scheduled with my T on Monday.  So I talked this over with him.  He thought the date I had decided on (July 7) was a good one.  It's after the 5K, and also lets uBPDstbxw spend July 4 (her favorite holiday) with her son.  And it gives me 3 solid weeks of summer time with S5 before he starts kindergarten.  (Orientation is July 31 -- isn't that crazy?)


So I sent uBPDstbxw an email with my request.  It was pleasant but firm.  I mentioned how I thought about her spending time with him on the 4th would be important.

Not surprisingly, her responses since then (a couple emails and a couple phone calls) have been pretty angry.  She claimed she had "proof" that we had agreed that she would have him until August.  (My only recollection of anything like this was when I looked up the first day of school, so we knew when he absolutely had to be back with me.)  She swore at me, she called me a monster, she changed the subject into how I had thrown her on the streets... .(I was actually the one sleeping in my office until she attempted suicide... .)  And she absolutely refused to honor my requested date.

I forwarded her emails to my L and left him a voicemail.  I haven't heard back, but he did tell me that he'd be out of town trying a case this week.

S5 and I video chat a few nights a week.  The first thing out of his mouth last night was, "I want to stay here."  I know those are his mom's words, but it still sucks to hear.


I have every legal right to go and get him right if I want to under the terms of the temporary custody order.  But what do I do if July 7 rolls around and she hasn't changed her mind?  It will be a small miracle if she agrees to drive to our usual halfway point, so I'm pretty much expecting that I'll need to drive all the way down there.  If I show up at her doorstep and she won't give him up, do I get local police involved?  Would they even care about an out-of-state court order?

[prof]

Short recap for those who aren't familiar with my story:  uBPDstbxw and I have been separated since the end of January.  She moved to another state to stay with a family member, and has since found a job and her own place.

There's a 12-month temporary custody order in place for S5.  I have primary custody, but she is allowed liberal visitation at my discretion.

Early in the process, I informally agreed to her getting him over 2 separate weeks during the spring, and then for the summer.  Nothing was ever put in writing.

As the school year was nearing its end (S5 was finishing Pre-K), I tried contacting my L to get his advice on how long he would recommend S5 stay with uBPDstbxw.

My case is pretty much in a holding pattern right now (even though uBPDstbxw is well beyond the time limit to officially file an answer to my petition for divorce, the judge wants to give her more time before a hearing is scheduled).  And since L has been busy with other clients, he never got back to me.

I was obviously getting frustrated at my calls and emails going unanswered.  I was hoping to have my question answered before I dropped S5 off with his mom, but it eventually was a couple weeks after.  I finally just decided to drive by his office and drop in.

He wasn't there the first time, but he was the second (this past Friday).  He apologized profusely and explained how busy he'd been.  We ended up having a pretty informative and productive meeting.

He recommended that I get S5 back ASAP, but also give uBPDstbxw a reasonable amount of notice.

While of course I can't wait to have S5 back, I have been enjoying the past few weeks of "me" time.  I'm a college professor on summer break.  I'm teaching an online class, but am otherwise free to go out an explore and really re-discover who I am after years of codependency.  I'd planned some activities (e.g., training for my first 5K in years) that wouldn't really work while also taking care of a 5-year-old.

Fortunately, I had an appointment scheduled with my T on Monday.  So I talked this over with him.  He thought the date I had decided on (July 7) was a good one.  It's after the 5K, and also lets uBPDstbxw spend July 4 (her favorite holiday) with her son.  And it gives me 3 solid weeks of summer time with S5 before he starts kindergarten.  (Orientation is July 31 -- isn't that crazy?)


So I sent uBPDstbxw an email with my request.  It was pleasant but firm.  I mentioned how I thought about her spending time with him on the 4th would be important.

Not surprisingly, her responses since then (a couple emails and a couple phone calls) have been pretty angry.  She claimed she had "proof" that we had agreed that she would have him until August.  (My only recollection of anything like this was when I looked up the first day of school, so we knew when he absolutely had to be back with me.)  She swore at me, she called me a monster, she changed the subject into how I had thrown her on the streets... .(I was actually the one sleeping in my office until she attempted suicide... .)  And she absolutely refused to honor my requested date.

I forwarded her emails to my L and left him a voicemail.  I haven't heard back, but he did tell me that he'd be out of town trying a case this week.

S5 and I video chat a few nights a week.  The first thing out of his mouth last night was, "I want to stay here."  I know those are his mom's words, but it still sucks to hear.


I have every legal right to go and get him right if I want to under the terms of the temporary custody order.  But what do I do if July 7 rolls around and she hasn't changed her mind?  It will be a small miracle if she agrees to drive to our usual halfway point, so I'm pretty much expecting that I'll need to drive all the way down there.  If I show up at her doorstep and she won't give him up, do I get local police involved?  Would they even care about an out-of-state court order?

[flourdust]

Hi, prof. Thanks for checking in!

It sounds like you've got the right to reclaim custody but you can't get her to agree to that in conversation (using the term "conversation" very loosely here!).

What if instead of trying to persuade her to agree with your point of view, you simply assert it? Keep messages BIFF. "Per our agreement, I will be picking son up at your place on 9 AM on July 7." Repeat without elaboration or argument if she sends long, emotional challenges. Then show up at that time and date.

IF she refuses handoff at that time, you can move on to involving third parties for enforcement. But cross that bridge when you come to it.

And in the future, as I'm sure you've learned, you ABSOLUTELY need to have all agreements with your ex in writing. Any writing will do -- texts, emails, post-it notes. But don't rely on her to honor oral agreements!

[ForeverDad]

Understand this well, you have a right to review and reconsider offers and terms.  The way you describe the order indicates you get to decide the terms.  Since the order states you get to decide, your verbal, tentative (I like that word) or conceptual ideas aren't written in stone.  Nor are they capricious or malicious.

You have since clarified the summer framework.  In addition, if vacation time is allowed, then you can remind her that she can view this summer as you each getting part of the summer for 'vacation' sort of time.  (Did either of you give notice for vacation time or is that even in the current order?  It sounds like this is temporary and you get discretion over how much time she gets and when... .)

Odds are that she will refuse to see things your way, down to the wire but then comply at the last minute.  Don't feel you have to cave in to demands, she will try to control things but I feel she may comply if you hold firm.  Her the irresistible force (demands and cajoling) and you the immovable wall (boundary).

If there is any risk of her claiming you're not to come to her residence after she didn't show up at the exchange location, then ask a police officer to come with you to ensure a 'peace visit' is ensured.  The last thing you want is her making allegations and trying to get you carted off to jail.

[formflier]

My guess is she caves at last second.  I would inform her of what is going to happen (not asking).  I also would not go back and forth much on this as that will add fuel to fire.

That may mean you don't answer some emails or answer them with "I've already answered this in my email of (date)."

The last thing you want is to dump fuel in fire and "push" her to do something crazy.

Why did lawyer want you to get him back asap? 

I'm concerned that you are loosing leverage to keep primary custody.  If she is fine keeping him for long periods... .then how do you claim she is not "fit" to make bigger decisions?


FF

[livednlearned]

If I show up at her doorstep and she won't give him up, do I get local police involved?  Would they even care about an out-of-state court order?

Laws might be different where you live, but in my state, police can't enforce custody orders (which are considered civil). Like FD said, police will do a well-child check or provide domestic assistance to make sure things don't get out of hand. But they won't come to the door with the order in their hand and enforce it. If S5 doesn't want to come out of the house, police where I live would not make him.

The parenting coordinator involved in my case told me involving law enforcement should be a last resort, it can be traumatizing for kids. It might be a good idea to do what others suggest first and then see if you can call her bluff. If not, then know how things will work if you do call law enforcement. What they can and can't do.

If she does create a problem for you that day, what do you think is the best long-term plan to make this easier for you?

What might you do different next time?

[formflier]

Do you have a parenting coordinator involved?

Are you regularly seeing a T?

Does your son have a T he sees?

Is there a family T you guys have been involved with?

Anyway, I would say that you have "professional advice" before you leave for the pickup about what to do if she won't "give up the kid".  And follow that advice.

She doesn't need to know that you have prof advice.  I'm trying to think strategically here... if your actions get called into question that you can say "look court... .I knew this would be a problem and I got advice about what to do that was in best interests of my kid or "least traumatizing"

My vibe is that your wife will fold, but you need to be prepared for other outcomes.

FF

[livednlearned]

A note on the folding.

My ex would threaten to keep our son.

But the realities are that it can be stressful to single parent.

Ex would fight for more time and make threats and then rarely did he follow through.

He fought for more custodial time in court but then, in day to day interactions, would give away his existing custodial time to me without asking for more time in return.

Actions, words. Different all the time... .

[prof]

My guess is she caves at last second.

This is my guess as well.  It wouldn't be the first time!

A couple months ago, I was going up to visit my dad the weekend after I picked S5 up from visiting uBPDstbxw.  She hates my dad and has on numerous occasions told me that she doesn't want him in S5's life.

A couple days before I was going to meet her to get him back, she informed me that she was going to keep S5 an extra week, until I returned from my dad's.  I reminded her of the terms of our custody order and that wasn't going to happen.

The day before we were originally going to meet, I asked her if she would be driving to the halfway point.  She was, but she wouldn't give me a straight answer!  "You know the answer to that," she said... .

Why did lawyer want you to get him back asap?  

I'm concerned that you are loosing leverage to keep primary custody.  If she is fine keeping him for long periods... .then how do you claim she is not "fit" to make bigger decisions?

You answered your own question with that comment -- L doesn't want her to appear too capable of taking care of him.

If she does create a problem for you that day, what do you think is the best long-term plan to make this easier for you?

What might you do different next time?

Certainly nailing down a return date before she gets him would be ideal.  That was what I was hoping to do, but I wanted my L's advice and he wasn't responding... .

Do you have a parenting coordinator involved?

No

Are you regularly seeing a T?

Yes

Does your son have a T he sees?

No.  I asked my T about this a few months ago.  He recommended to look for big changes in S5's behavior first.  I haven't seen any -- S5 has been handling things soo much better than his mom and I.

Is there a family T you guys have been involved with?

We saw 3 separate couples counselors in the couple years leading up to our separation.

My vibe is that your wife will fold, but you need to be prepared for other outcomes.

My thoughts exactly.

[formflier]

Courts love counseling. 

I would recommend you have your son go to a couple sessions to get familiar with someone, so if something comes up... .there is a relationship already built.

Perhaps you and he can do some "family t" geared towards "improvement"... even if there is nothing "broken" between you to be "fixed"

Seriously... courts will like you being proactive.

FF

[prof]

My L never got back to me about my options with uBPDstbxw refusing to honor my requested return date for S5.  (His lack of communication in regards to my custody-related questions has been frustrating.  But he has been on the ball when he needs to be from the standpoint of the court -- uBPDstbxw wrote some emails to the court a week or so ago and he pounced all over it.)

So one day, a couple weeks back, uBPDstbxw texted me that I should at least S5 stay through their planned trip to a particular amusement park.  It was two weeks later than my requested return date, but still a week before uBPDstbxw had originally said she was going to meet me.  So I got her to agree to meet the next day (a week from this coming Sunday).

My time with S5 over the summer will be way shorter than what my L wanted (he wanted me to have at least half, but I'm only getting 1.5 weeks of his summer break).  But I'll be happy to have him home!  And I have custody during the school year, so we'll have plenty of time together.

This evening, uBPDstbxw is sending me a novel's worth of texts going on and on about how horrible and unfair I'm being.  I've answered a couple specific questions.  ("No, I don't want to keep our son from you.  Here are the dates when he has vacation from school this fall."  But for the most part, I ignore it.

[david]

A few years ago I went to pick up our youngest son. Our court order is very detailed. It applies to both of us. I arrive at her place and call her cell. When the voicemail turns on I hang up. Son is supposed to come out in 5 minutes. Ex is not allowed out until my car  drives away.
I arrived, called, and waited 15 minutes. I called again and waited another 15 minutes. I then called the police. I remained in my car the entire time. The police arrived and told me this was a civil matter and they could not help. They said I needed to contact my attorney. I said I was concerned for their wellbeing since this was not usual. The two officers talked for a short amount of time. One started to walk towards exs' residence. As his foot hit the driveway , her door opened , and our son came out. He got in the car and we drove away.
Son asked why the police were there. I explained how I called twice and became worried that something happened to him and his mom. That made sense to him. She never tried that again.

[formflier]

Hey prof... .you understand that your L is likely not concerned about your opinion of it you have had enough time with him... right?

It's about the opinion of the court.


Has it talked through with you his reasoning?

FF

[livednlearned]

His lack of communication in regards to my custody-related questions has been frustrating.

I went to my L's office and asked to speak directly, or let staff know I hadn't heard from her when it happened.

I made it a point to be considerate and kind to staff, made myself a respectful client, and sent thank you's when they went above and beyond.

This is big stuff. It's bigger than when you got your phd. You probably had to go knock on advisor's doors to get them to respond and give you the time of day.

I used the same tactic with my L, and trained her to respond by email otherwise she would have to deal with the annoyance of having me show up in person  

[prof]

Hey prof... .you understand that your L is likely not concerned about your opinion of it you have had enough time with him... right?

It's about the opinion of the court.

Yes, of course.

Has it talked through with you his reasoning?

He doesn't want to paint a picture to the court that she's too capable of looking after S5.

[DivDad]

I divorced an uBPD with two children involved. Your uBPD is showing classic traits of creating unnecessary chaos and the beginning of parent alienation.

It’s going to be a bumpy ride, but you have to get some ducks in order to protect yourself and your son.   (1)  From what you wrote, your L is unresponsive. You have many more years to go to get things righted.  You need to find a more un-busy, and responsive L.  And you need to do it now, not later.  If your L is not there for you now, he/she is not going to be there when it comes crunch time. I assume your L is a divorce L.  (2)  A previous response mentioned to have everything in writing.  That advice needs to be screaming in bold type.  Never, ever, agree to anything verbally with a BPD.  Ever.  (2a)  If you do have something in writing from the BPD about an August return date, then that is the thing you need to hang your hat on. Ask your L if that is enough to enforce a pick up in August.  All other verbal dates are a “he said, she said” thing…and it will not hold up in court or with law enforcement. (3) I question your L for letting your son go out-of-state without something stipulated in writing.  That is unusual although your L might be thinking he/she is dealing with a ration/normal separation/divorce. You need to demand if he knows what your state laws are regarding a parent taking a child out of state on a verbal/email agreement.  State laws are different from state to state.  Regardless, is seems your L is not the person you want when dealing with a BPD in terms of being accessible and responsive. In the immediate and long term future, you are going to be dealing with emergency situations.  Trust me on that. Again, if your L is not there now for you, you need to ask yourself if he/she will  be there when you need him/her the most.  (4)  You need to get up to speed on what the divorce and custody laws are in the state your BPD now resides.  You need to be prepared if you are served an-out-state court petition from your stbx. Never underestimate a BPD.  The L in your own state can give you guidance.  If you are served, you will need to retain another L in that state. (5) Remember, BPD plan things out months and years in advance.  (6)  Before you travel to the state to pick up your son, you need to get up to speed on THAT state’s custody laws.   You can’t call the local police until you know what they can and can’t do.  (7) There is more, but you need to start looking at things from a legal standpoint to protect you and your son.  Remember, divorcing a BPD is not a normal process. (8)  In dealing with emails and texts from a BPD, my parent coordinator gave me very good advice.  Deal with ONE issue and ONE response per email/text. Try and separate the issues.  Try not to answer back with  multiple responses in the same email/text. If you get two high impact  issues in one email/text, address one in  a separate email…and then start a new one that addresses the other issue. ... .with something like, “oops, I forget to mention... .” etc.  Too, stick to issues that mainly impact your son.  And SAVE all emails and texts in chronological order. You will need them for your L.   
 Good luck!

[prof]

Some updates:

L has been unresponsive due to a medical issue.  I heard from him today and he's back to work.  His next goal is to finally get a hearing scheduled.

uBPDstbxw emailed me yesterday claiming car trouble that would prevent her from meeting at the halfway point.  She's played this card in the past.  She gave me an option of waiting an extra week or two until she can get the car fixed or driving the entire way and picking him up on the agreed date.

I told her I would be down there on Sunday (our agreed date).  She responded, "which Sunday?"  (It seemed completely clear in her original email that it was this Sunday she was talking about.)

When I responded that I would be there this Sunday, she replied that that was too soon and she won't let me pick him up.  She's followed this up with a bunch of drivel about how I've broken all these promises and that I'm a hypocrite and psychotic... .

I was tempted to threaten to withhold any future visitation unless she agreed to return him on Sunday.  My dad and L both discouraged me from doing that.

This morning I called the local police where she lives regarding my situation.  They said that they would back me up with a copy of the signed custody order, so that's very comforting.

So my current plan is to drive down there this weekend and get S5 back.  I hope she'll be reasonable when I arrive, but I'll call the police if not.

[prof]

DivDad -- I really appreciate your thoughts!

(1)  From what you wrote, your L is unresponsive. You have many more years to go to get things righted.  You need to find a more un-busy, and responsive L.  And you need to do it now, not later.  If your L is not there for you now, he/she is not going to be there when it comes crunch time. I assume your L is a divorce L.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I just learned that L has had a medical issue.  I'd like to give him a second chance, but the idea of moving to someone else has definitely crossed my mind as well.

(2)  A previous response mentioned to have everything in writing.  That advice needs to be screaming in bold type.  Never, ever, agree to anything verbally with a BPD.  Ever.  (2a)  If you do have something in writing from the BPD about an August return date, then that is the thing you need to hang your hat on. Ask your L if that is enough to enforce a pick up in August.  All other verbal dates are a “he said, she said” thing…and it will not hold up in court or with law enforcement.

I have definitely learned this after this summer's ordeal.  No more nebulous "you can have him this summer" statements!  Fortunately, I have texts backing up the July 22 date we eventually agreed on.

(3) I question your L for letting your son go out-of-state without something stipulated in writing.  That is unusual although your L might be thinking he/she is dealing with a ration/normal separation/divorce. You need to demand if he knows what your state laws are regarding a parent taking a child out of state on a verbal/email agreement.  State laws are different from state to state.  Regardless, is seems your L is not the person you want when dealing with a BPD in terms of being accessible and responsive. In the immediate and long term future, you are going to be dealing with emergency situations.  Trust me on that. Again, if your L is not there now for you, you need to ask yourself if he/she will  be there when you need him/her the most.

I would blame me rather than my L for this.  Early on in the separation, I was like, "Oh totally -- you can have him during school breaks!"  Basically continuing my usual behavior towards her and giving in to all her demands.  I'm slowly learning... .

(4)  You need to get up to speed on what the divorce and custody laws are in the state your BPD now resides.  You need to be prepared if you are served an-out-state court petition from your stbx. Never underestimate a BPD.  The L in your own state can give you guidance.  If you are served, you will need to retain another L in that state.

Fortunately, uBPDstbxw has not to my knowledge retained an attorney in either my state or hers.  A few weeks back, she did try emailing the court regarding her situation.  The court attorney forwarded everything to my L who forwarded it to me.  They shot her down with a ton of legal-ese.  I just learned today that that uBPDstbxw said some nasty things about the clerk in an email and the judge threatened to hold her in contempt if she contacted them again!

(5) Remember, BPD plan things out months and years in advance.  (6)  Before you travel to the state to pick up your son, you need to get up to speed on THAT state’s custody laws.   You can’t call the local police until you know what they can and can’t do.

As I said above, fortunately the police in her town confirmed that they will help me with a copy of the custody order, even though it's from out of state.

(7) There is more, but you need to start looking at things from a legal standpoint to protect you and your son.  Remember, divorcing a BPD is not a normal process. (8)  In dealing with emails and texts from a BPD, my parent coordinator gave me very good advice.  Deal with ONE issue and ONE response per email/text. Try and separate the issues.  Try not to answer back with  multiple responses in the same email/text. If you get two high impact  issues in one email/text, address one in  a separate email…and then start a new one that addresses the other issue. ... .with something like, “oops, I forget to mention... .” etc.  Too, stick to issues that mainly impact your son.  And SAVE all emails and texts in chronological order. You will need them for your L. 

I think I've been doing a decent job with these.

Good luck!

Thanks!


Another random thing I learned today... .

We had 4 cats together when we separated (not counting the fosters).  I kept them all initially, but she claimed to want 2 of them.

One of the two died suddenly and unexpectedly a couple months back.  But she still wanted the other one.  When she got an apartment of her own, she could only have our dog but no cats.  I told her I'd hang onto the cat for as long as she needs.  (He's an awesome cat -- I don't mind one bit.)

Well today, S5 told me while video chatting that she got a cat.  She's still in the same apartment.  She claimed that she can't afford the vet bills of the cat I'm keeping for her.  (I'm not really sure what she's talking about.  He had a urinary thing a few years back and eats special food.  He was also hospitalized for a blood infection this spring, but that's not some chronic condition.)  I haven't discussed it further with her, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the cat will be staying with me permanently... .

[Nope]

Keep us posted on how it goes when you get him. I suggest bringing a recorder with you to record any contact you have with her. If she tries to withhold him, and you call the police, the embarrassment could trigger false accusations.

[ForeverDad]

If she is playing dumb about the date, understand that this is her version of boundary pushing.  People with BPD behaviors don't respect others' boundaries.  If she can get away with it, then it will give her incentive to try even harder next time.

Frankly, she may never stop pushing your boundaries but at least keep your boundaries firm, long term it will make life less difficult for you.

[livednlearned]

Do you want any feedback from the peanut gallery about how to prepare for the exchange?

 

[prof]

Do you want any feedback from the peanut gallery about how to prepare for the exchange?

Of course!


For the past day or so, I've been waffling back and forth between going to pick up S5 and risking there being a big ordeal involving the police right in front of him, or giving in to uBPDstbxw and letting her keep him another week.

But this afternoon it became clear that even if I were to wait a week, she would very likely give me the same crap next weekend.

A little background -- I live in one county and work in another.  I would very much like to move to the county I work in at some point.  With my current financial situation, I'm in no position to buy a house.  And it's very difficult to find a rental that will allow the number of pets I have.  I looked this summer with no luck.

In the spring, I told uBPDstbxw that I would be looking for a place in the other county.  Now the schools in the other county start a full week later than the ones in the current county.  So now she's accused me of lying about what county S5 is registered to start kindergarten in, merely to get him a week earlier... .

So I'm heading down there to get him.

[formflier]

So I'm heading down there to get him.

Involving the police is on her... not you.  Don't buy into the thinking that you are responsible for that... if your son sees it.

I would also encourage you not to go "round and round with her" about the police or the pickup.

You get there... .is he gives him up, thank her and leave (no discussion about other topics).

You get there... .she doesn't give him up.  1 warning... then call.

I would think through how you will calmly do the warning.  I would also encourage you to take multiple copies of your custody order... and also make sure you have scanned pdf copies.

That way you can leave one with police... .she can grab one and throw it away... and life can happen, yet you still have the proof you need.

Prof... remember this for future exchanges.

Switching gears... .I though you were going to downsize pets?  Remember, focus on you and your son.  Let the rest of the world take a backseat.

I'm a landlord... .I've never said no to a goldfish... .

FF

[david]

I have a video camera with me whenever I pick or boys up at exs'. Our state does not allow it but it was the only way I could protect myself from false allegations. I was charged with assault by ex years ago. I never laid a hand on her but I had no proof. I was locked up for the weekend. Later, I was found guilty of disorderly conduct and jailed for two weeks. When I got out I purchased the video camera and I also purchased a small audio recorder.
Ex has brought up in court about my camera. I get yelled at and that is it. However, my attorney told me that the wrong j7udge may not take kindly to the recording so he suggested I stop. I thought about it and decided to post the camera at myself. I talked to my attorney and he said that was a good idea and arguable in court.
I would have never thought ex would do what she did. I no longer am surprised by anything she does.

[formflier]

A quick Google and an email to your L should help you understand if you are in a one party or two party consent state.

FF

[livednlearned]

For the past day or so, I've been waffling back and forth between going to pick up S5 and risking there being a big ordeal involving the police right in front of him

I admire you for thinking about him  It says a lot about you as a dad.

Some police departments have law enforcement with social work degrees, to help with exactly these kinds of situations. It might be worth asking to talk to one to see if there are best practices, and what to say to S5 after.

Because of the likelihood she will engage in parental alienation, it's probably not a good idea to give your ex a heads up at any point that you are calling the police. She will go straight to S5 and create a narrative in which you are the bad guy and she is the victim. And it will look exactly like that when the police come, with S5 wanting to stay with his mom.

She also might surprise you and have S5 ready for you at the agreed upon time. It's stressful to have a child full-time and even more stressful when you have a problem regulating emotions.

She knows that better than anyone. 

I hope all goes well for you tomorrow.

[formflier]

Some police departments have law enforcement with social work degrees, to help with exactly these kinds of situations. It might be worth asking to talk to one to see if there are best practices, and what to say to S5 after.

 

I love this idea/point.  Perhaps worth another phone call ahead of time to see if that is available.  I'm not suggesting that you call them to accompany you the first time you attempt pickup.

I do think you will feel better knowing exactly the resources at your disposal.

Much better to be over prepared than to be caught flat footed.

My well wishes for tomorrow as well.


FF

[DivDad]

"I suggest bringing a recorder with you to record any contact you have with her. If she tries to withhold him, and you call the police, the embarrassment could trigger false accusations."

Before you record anything... .you need to see what the laws are in the state about recording someone without their knowledge.  Very important.   The state that I live in... .it's illegal to do so.

[DivDad]

Regarding pick up suggestions... .make it nice, polite and short.  If there is a suggestion to have lunch or dinner, politely decline.  Your goal is to get your child out of the environment quickly. 

[livednlearned]

Hope things went well, prof.

It was Sunday that you planned to pick him up?

Before you record anything... .you need to see what the laws are in the state about recording someone without their knowledge.  Very important.   The state that I live in... .it's illegal to do so.

Good point.

prof, for your situation, in case you're in a situation where this comes up again, look online to see if your state is one-party consent or two-party consent. If it's one-party consent, it might be worth asking an L (in the state where your ex lives) if you can announce that you are recording.

Given the choice between recording and calling law enforcement, it might be better (if it's legal) to announce that you are recording -- she may be more likely to comply with the court order.

I live in a one-party consent state and even so, family law courts here do not like to hear about parents recording each other. But I did find it useful to hold up my phone with the recording light lit when it was necessary to prevent an interaction from getting worse.

[prof]

I live in a one-party state.  uBPDstbxw lives in a two-party state, but according to my L all that matters is which state's court we'll be appearing in (mine).

I had a recorder app running on my phone yesterday when I arrived to pick up S5.  There's the old saying that if you bring an umbrella, then it won't rain.  Well that's what happened -- the handoff was surprisingly pleasant and friendly.

It's a long drive, so S5 and I ended up staying in a hotel last night.  But we're back at my house now. 

Thanks everyone for your support!