One Year Later: She's mentioning dating other people, lot of push/pull

[jukeboxhero]

First time poster, I’ll try to condense things to make it readable. Long story short:
-   This time last year, began a romantic relationship with female friend
-   After getting closer to her, the BPD symptoms began showing themselves
-   She moved away for the past 8 months, moved back a couple months ago
-   Pushed me away countless times, broke up with me over text a few weeks ago
-   Currently NC, still grieving and healing from the breakup

According to my psychiatrist, I have AVPD, she has BPD. We originally started out as co-workers, then friends, then a romantic relationship. However, we never used the BF/GF labels, nor said “I love you”, although we’ve expressed the love and care we’ve had for each other.

About a year and a half ago, she had a separation and divorce, which was a shock to me. We were just friends, but started seeing each other romantically this time last year. I thought it was too soon for her at the time, but my T and her both said it was ok. I have very little relationship experience. Now I realize she was leaving one relationship for another, also triangulating between me and her ex. After their split, she immediately started applying for jobs back in her home state and began the process of selling the house.

She oscillated back and forth about what to do, but eventually moved back home. After deciding to leave she said, “If I stayed, I would just end up pushing you away anyway.” Ever since we started seeing each other romantically, she kept pushing me away and wanting to be just friends. Everytime she did this, I would agree to it. She pushed me away 4 times over the course of 2-3 months before moving.

She eventually moved back here a couple months ago. She had stayed back home for approximately 8 months. While there, she suffered a deep depression then due to her new job, family issues, weight gain, etc... .We would spend hours on the phone and video chat. She was gone for 8 months, but we only saw each other in person a handful of times. She would often flake on plans to meetup. She once came back here for an interview, without even telling me until she had gone back.

Each time after I agreed to be ‘just friends’, she would start things back up romantically with us. At a certain point, I decided to put my foot down, and not agree to it, the next time she wanted to go back to being ‘just friends’. Then, we had NC for exactly 1 month and 1 day, when she reached out to me. Things were more stable from then on.

Then, 2 weeks before her move back, she calls me up in a manic state, essentially expressing her fears of abandonment and engulfment. A couple days before the move, she reaches out again. The first week back, she freaks out, saying we couldn’t be together, she didn’t want that in her ‘new life’, she was sorry for hurting me… Then 2 weeks later, she stalks me at a local theater. She texted me that night, apologizing for her recent behavior. I tried to allow her to make amends, but she flaked again. Eventually, I managed to have her go out with me, even though it was an impulsive offer.

We then had a great week together, until she started devaluing me. She was genuinely lucid and honest a few times during this week. She said, “I’m having difficulty opening up my heart”, “I think the reason I keep coming back to you is that you accept me for how I’m feeling.” (validating her emotions) We talked about intimacy, and she said that in the past she was promiscuous, but had to “shutdown her emotions” to act that way.

By the end of that week, on the phone, since being back 1 month she admitted to having guys asking her out, but that she declined their offers, because of me. I initially thought she was just trying to make me jealous. Then the following day on the phone, I was asking her about her push/pull behavior, she acknowledged how erratic she is. She said she needed to get back into therapy, start journaling again, and heal. I asked if she needed space, and how long? She said she would call in a couple weeks.

The following day, my birthday, she sent a text. The day after, I invited her for lunch. We went out, but she gently pushed me away as I was kissing her hello. She said she thought we were going to cool it with that… So, we went to lunch, she was irritable, I tried talking to her about what happened on our last date, which was great all day, until she blewup at me.

On the drive back home, she was angry that we hadn’t gone ‘all the way’ yet. We both have intimacy issues. I told her that I was ready, but she yelled back, “I’m not ready now!” So, I told her to just let me know if and when she’s ready to continue dating. That evening, I decided to go back to my NAMI family support group.

NC for a few days, then out of the blue she texts me. “I need to let you know that I’m going to start dating. I don’t want you to be surprised or upset if you happen to see me out with someone. I appreciated all of your kindness and support over the past year.” I called her, left a voicemail that I wanted to speak in person or on the phone. She texted again, “I’m sorry you haven’t understood what I’ve been saying recently, I know it’s confusing. A romantic/dating relationship between us isn’t something I want in my future”. She apologized for “all the times she’s hurt me” and the “emotional turmoil” she’s caused.

This past year, she always attributed her pushing me away, to her not being ready for a relationship after her divorce, or dealing with stress from other sources like moving. Then after returning for little more than a month, she’s ready to continue dating?

I don’t know how she’s already getting dates only 1 month back… I think she’s reached out to guys she used to know from before she left. She hadn’t even started her new job yet. I know she's gone out with guys she wasn't attracted to, only for the attention.

I didn’t know what to do, she already wouldn’t answer my call, so I just didn’t respond initially. I asked a female friend, who said that I just should say I respect her wishes, but not to argue. I waited until my next NAMI meeting, they recommended not to respond either.

I was so angry, livid, that I knew I would say something I couldn’t take back, like telling her of BPD. I was ashamed because it felt like she used me for the past year, and upon moving back, starting lining up my replacements to discard me. I started having separation anxiety, waking up every night around 2-3, sometimes with nightmares. I started having headaches. I couldn’t concentrate at work or school.

After 2 weeks, I got to a place of forgiveness, due to compassion of how sick she is. I felt the anger melt away. I really love her a lot, I’ve known her for 5 years, she’s usually a kind woman, not callous. I messaged her back saying that I forgive her, and to let me know if she ever has a change of heart.

I’m still having difficulty concentrating and waking up every night, but I’m slowly getting better. The last time she pushed me away, it hurt, but I recovered in a couple days. The main difference between that time and this, is her mentioning dating other people, and not trying to get me to agree to be just friends.

Since she’s been back, she’s mentioned to me on 3 separate occasions her desire to get back into therapy. While moved away, she saw 2 therapists, the second was DBT. She told me she liked it, but “you don’t have to be borderline to use it.” So, I think she knows on some level that she’s BPD, but maybe not enough for genuine change.

So, I want her back, don’t know what I should do, if anything. It’s now been approximately 5 weeks since her last text and 3 weeks since my response. If and when she does reach out to me, I’m not sure how to proceed. I thought of telling her that if she wants to be in my life, she needs to be back in therapy. She’s emotionally abusive with the BPD patterns of behavior. However, both my psychiatrist and NAMI support group told me not to give her an ultimatum.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi jukeboxhero,



I agree. Ultimatums are not a good idea. She has to want to make changes, for personal changes to happen.

Focusing on yourself, the part you can control, is always a good idea.

Are you expecting to hear from her again, has she said she wants a friendship, if not the dating part?

with compassion, pearl.

[jukeboxhero]

Yes, but she has no motivation for change... .she's middle aged, but very attractive and outgoing. She's extremely high functioning. She can have a steady stream of guys to enable her. She's probably idealizing new love objects or recycling past relationships right now... .

I'm trying to heal, but I'm still having separation anxiety, waking up at night, sometimes nightmares.

I do expect to hear from her again, since she never offered any closure, and always comes back. She refused to speak in person, or on the phone, and said in text “there’s no reason to discuss it anymore”. Whenever she pushes me away, she refuses to communicate. I spoke with her about this the last time we were on good terms, didn’t make a difference though.

She hasn’t said she wants friendship or anything from me this time. The last few times she pushed me away, I stated that I only wanted a romantic relationship. She didn't try to convince me otherwise. Each time though, it has sounded “final” from her, but then she reaches out again.

I consider her my best friend, we’ve become so close over the past year. That’s part of the problem, she’s afraid of intimacy. I think her moving back, and the possibility for us to finally have a consistent, intimate relationship has triggered her fear of engulfment.

[pearlsw]

Hey jukeboxhero,

With your AVPD her push/pull must have been so incredibly painful!

Are you hoping there is a chance for you two? Do you do any other dating?

What are the nightmares about?

warmly, pearl.

[jukeboxhero]

It caused alot of heartache, the umpteen times she pushed me away. The pain usually lasted only a few days though... .This time, because she said she was "going to start dating" it's really hurt way worse. This has triggered alot of my trauma and abandonment issues from childhood. My mother was schizophrenic, I was her caretaker, she passed away a few years ago. My SO's ex husband's mother was bipolar. So, she goes for guys who are co-dependent.

I'm hoping she reaches out to me. When I'm extremely anxious or depressed, I consider breaking NC. We were so close, and we've often been a source of comfort for each other. Everything I've read on this site, and advice elsewhere, suggests to maintain NC though, to improve chances of her missing me and reaching out.

My dating experience before her is almost nonexistent, like most people with AVPD. She's the closest I've had to a real romantic relationship, as disordered as it's been. We started out as friends, and that underlying friendship makes the breakup hurt even more.

The nightmares vary, sometimes they're about past trauma, sometimes about simply running into my SO in public. I don't always have a dream, but I do still wake up with anxiety every night, going on 5 weeks now... .

[pearlsw]

Hi jukeboxhero,

Okay! I see! When you feel anxious or depressed talking about it here might help... .might help you from breaking the NC.

Are you considering trying to date again or still waiting to see where this goes or just not up for it at all?

Anxiety is so tough! How are you handling it? What strategies do you have for dealing with it?

with deep compassion, pearl. 

[jukeboxhero]

I've considered trying to date, and I need to, for my own mental health. It's possible I will never hear from her again... .Besides, risking rejection with romantic relationships is at the heart of AVPD. I do so much to try and work on my own mental health as it is.

To try and help with my anxiety and depression I take classes in martial arts, yoga, and different art/social groups. I've done NAMI peer and family support groups, started going back to those. I recently joined a 12-step program called Emotions Anonymous. (I couldn't find a co-dependant's anonymous nearby) I'm planning to start taking an improv class tomorrow.

Aside from all of that... .lots of Xanax. My T has tried several different anti-depressants, none work, he suggested I just try St. John's Wort. My depression has been a life long thing, the anxiety has really flared up because of the discard.

Thanks for replying, you're the only person who responded to my thread.

[pearlsw]

I've considered trying to date, and I need to, for my own mental health.

Thanks for replying, you're the only person who responded to my thread.

Wow jukeboxhero,

Sounds like you are doing some really great stuff! I'm impressed with the effort you make to be healthy - that is very commendable!

If you do try to date what route do you go? Online? Or via people you may meet doing some of your hobbies? What are you looking for in a partner at this point in your life if I may ask?

Ah, please don't mind, sometimes it takes awhile to find your groove here! I remember when I started I mostly posted on other people's threads. I was too shy to start my own, I have a touch of anxiety myself at times. I don't like being in the spotlight and it felt weird to have people I don't know talking about my personal business. In time though it became fascinating and was a great source of support through various crises I've endured in the past year or so. People here have an incredible amount of insights to offer - you'll be surprised if you stick with us and keep posting on other's threads and starting your own as well!

Wow! That's great that you do improv! Way to dive right in on life!

I've never heard of Emotions Anonymous - that sounds pretty interesting! I suppose a whole range of people might find that a useful space to find support!

with deep respect, pearl.

[Radcliff]

jukeboxhero,

First of all, your username totally rocks!  (no pun intended  )  Seriously, though it's a great name.

Ouch, with verbal abuse vs. AVPD, that must be a tough combination.  I'm sorry you've had to endure that.

I'm no expert, but what would you think about having a "just friends" relationship with her for a while?  Less pressure for you both, and kind of a training ground to see if you can get the relationship on steady footing before raising the stakes.  It also gives you both some valuable "friend" support.

I gave my BPDw an ultimatum to get therapy early in our relationship.  It was an awful miscalculation.  I wouldn't recommend it.  But what I didn't realize, was that I could have been compassionate to her and had the thought in my own head that I wasn't willing to proceed unless there was therapy, and detached with love if things weren't working out.  If a voice inside you is telling you that without therapy, the relationship is not safe for you, you need to pay attention to that voice.  I'm definitely not saying what you should do with the relationship, but you and that voice need to talk

Two thumbs up from me on getting more dating experience.  I had very little experience when I met my BPDw, and that put me at a disadvantage as far as knowing what I wanted out of a relationship, and what was possible.  That's another benefit of building a friendship with her -- you can get some more dating experience.  With more experience you'll actually be a stronger relationship partner for her if that is meant to be.

I was really impressed with how much work you're doing on yourself to build your confidence, grow, and learn.  Do you know how attractive that is to women?  Very.  Girls and younger women don't always have their priorities straight when it comes to the most important things to look for in a guy.  As time goes on, a guy who's improving himself all of a sudden gets notice by those gals who figure out what they're really looking for. 

I'm going to close with an idea that has nothing to do with BPD.  Flirting.  When I was young, I had no game with women.  Definitely not a natural.  Very late in life, like in my 40's, I figured out that flirting can be fun.  And it's not what I thought it was.  Basically, it's smiling and being friendly with almost everyone -- your boss' secretary, the checkout lady at the supermarket, etc.  Smiling and being friendly with folks you'd never ask out.  Those interactions are very low-stakes.  And you'll find -- they smile back!  You might just make that checkout lady happy that a guy smiled and was so nice.  You'll start to realize that people will respond to you.  It's a nice confidence builder.  Once you get comfortable with it, you'll find yourself able to do it even with women you might like to ask out.  And if you're just doing it to be friendly, still without firm intent to ask them out, it's still low stakes.  A guy who's friendly and relaxed and not clearly after something comes across as genuine.  He's attractive.  Smiling at the checkout lady is also safe even if you're in a committed relationship; it can improve your ability to work in the relationship by building your confidence.  OK, I'll climb down off my flirting soapbox.  Go smile at the checkout lady next time you're at the grocery store!  It works!

WW

[pearlsw]

jukeboxhero,

First of all, your username totally rocks!  (no pun intended  )  Seriously, though it's a great name.

Hey, I wanted to say this to ya too!   

[isilme]

Hi jukeboxhero.

Lemme put a quarter in and see if I can say anything helpful.

The whole whirlwind of a relationship you described is very much push-pull.  You've got that straight.  And likely, please believe me, much of what she is trying to blame on you, her feelings, her reactions, are NOT about you, not your fault, and would have happened to anyone.  At least you know the term BPD, and have a good amount of starting knowledge before joining BPD family.  A lot of us were so new to this idea we were a lot fo steps in catching up to where you are now.

Ultimatums - I discourage them.  Let me see if I can make a distinction between an ultimatum and a boundary, IMO.

So, H took forever in getting around to proposing.  A lot of people told me to issue an ultimatum - propose and let's get married or I leave.  But that was not a boundary.  It was meant as an attempt to control him, to push and threaten him into doing what I wanted, possibly against anything HE wanted.  A lot of people seem to think demands and threats are good as long as you get your way in the end.  I don't. 

Instead, I did a lot of soul searching - what did I really want?  Marriage?  Marriage to him?  Or just any warm body who was good "enough"?  How bad would it be to remain unmarried if he could stop the flirting and emotional cheating?  What WS my REAL last-straw?  How much did it hurt to stay versus hurt from possibly leaving?  I made a few decisions and let him know how I felt about marriage.  But for me, for it to mean ANYTHING, HE had to be the one to choose to do it, with as little prompting or input from me as possible. 

I made it clear if he could not stop flirting and stopping just shy of breaking up with me over the newest new girl he'd met, I was going because being alone would be better than that hurt.  That was not a threat.  it was a fact and a boundary I was preparing to enforce.  I let him know it made me sad and ashamed to go to over 15 weddings in a short period of time and have to make up reasons we weren't after 10+ years together that did not make him sound like an ass.  I made it clear that over and over I had chosen him, but he had yet to choose me.  That I would not go as long as I felt he was not disrespecting me anymore with what practically amounted to dating other IN FRONT of my very passive face. 

This was a nasty period and took about 6 months to fully get through, from about fall to spring.  I ended up on this site, partly due to healing needed from my BPD parents, but found the relationship board, too, and it kept me together.  And I found a place where I realized I'd be okay either way, with him, with him but still unmarried, or on my own, I'd be okay.  And that was a good place to be compared with the previous state.

I'd say date or not date, but not to stress over it either way.  I encourage finding ways that you can interact with new people that you can manage, not to seek out dates, but to simply increase your social circle organically.  You can likely find a person with whom you share interests just by being around other people.  Work on being friends with anyone frist, THEN worry about being closer if it looks agreeable.

Volunteer places you find interesting - I'm a fan of no-kill animal shelters, but there are lots of places that need helping hands, and having a task to do can help with any awkward feelings that purely social events can bring up.  Build houses with Habitat for Humanity.  Do a beach clean up.  Hell, even try out 5Ks or see if any churches have fundraisers and food drives. 

All in all, if she calls you, only do what YOU feel is good for you at this point.  If it's to politely decline any invintations, or accept, then do what YOU feel is good for you.

pwBPD can learn to be less erratic and to be able to better show they care  But it's a hard road and one that we often have to drag them to by working on us, making us stronger ourselves, all first.

[jukeboxhero]

If you do try to date what route do you go? Online? Or via people you may meet doing some of your hobbies? What are you looking for in a partner at this point in your life if I may ask?

I've never heard of Emotions Anonymous - that sounds pretty interesting! I suppose a whole range of people might find that a useful space to find support!

Both, online and in person. Last year when my SO and I were just friends, having dinner, talking about relationship stuff. I told her that I just want someone pretty and kind. I'm unsure how much she was acting or mirroring me this past year. Now, I just want someone stable with integrity and who is willing to communicate when they're upset. To be fair, I need to improve my communication skills as well. I've been going through the lessons on this site, and listening to the audiobook of "Stop Walking on Eggshells" repeatedly. Hopefully, I'll be better prepared if and when she reaches out.

Yeah, I hadn't heard of EA either, it's a 12 step for anyone with emotional issues. I prefer the NAMI family support group though. Many of the EA members also attend the NAMI peer support group.

[jukeboxhero]

I'm no expert, but what would you think about having a "just friends" relationship with her for a while?
 

Before she moved away last year, when she said she wanted to go back to being just friends, I agreed, but then she would escalate things with affection, or just plain asking me to kiss her. The push/pull was so confusing and hurtful.
I suppose I could try starting over as friends, but not when she’s actively dating other guys. The last communication we’ve had, is my text telling her to let me know if she has a change of heart. I can’t go back on my word now. She’s treated me with such disrespect, I need to at least have some self-respect. Also, it would be breaking NC. So I don’t know…

If a voice inside you is telling you that without therapy, the relationship is not safe for you, you need to pay attention to that voice.

She’s been in therapy off and on the past 25 years… She told me she’s had around 20 therapists over the years. My T said it’s because she fears intimacy. I was excited and hopeful when she started DBT, but she quit that too. She’s mentioned therapy 3 times since moving back. I could gently nudge her without giving an ultimatum.

Girls and younger women don't always have their priorities straight when it comes to the most important things to look for in a guy. 

Well, she’s 45, looks 25, and acts 5. The last time we saw each other, she got angry twice and clenched her fists like a child unable to express her anger.

I'm going to close with an idea that has nothing to do with BPD.  Flirting.

Yeah, that’s something I’ve been working on, the depression makes that difficult though.

Thanks for the advice!

[jukeboxhero]

And likely, please believe me, much of what she is trying to blame on you, her feelings, her reactions, are NOT about you, not your fault, and would have happened to anyone.  At least you know the term BPD, and have a good amount of starting knowledge before joining BPD family.  A lot of us were so new to this idea we were a lot fo steps in catching up to where you are now.

Thank you, that feels good to hear. She would often blame my lack of relationship experience on her behavior. The ironic thing is that I knew alot about BPD, because I tended to be attracted to low functioning BPD women. Her and I discussed it at length. We used to often talk about psychological stuff. The problem was, I didn't understand the difference between low functioning and high functioning. I also didn't know about the pattern of discarding and recycling. I had no idea she was BPD until several months after she moved.

Ultimatums - I discourage them.  Let me see if I can make a distinction between an ultimatum and a boundary, IMO.
I made it clear if he could not stop flirting and stopping just shy of breaking up with me over the newest new girl he'd met, I was going because being alone would be better than that hurt.  That was not a threat.  it was a fact and a boundary I was preparing to enforce.  I let him know it made me sad and ashamed to go to over 15 weddings in a short period of time and have to make up reasons we weren't after 10+ years together that did not make him sound like an ass.  I made it clear that over and over I had chosen him, but he had yet to choose me.  That I would not go as long as I felt he was not disrespecting me anymore with what practically amounted to dating other IN FRONT of my very passive face. 

Yeah, I was confused about the ultimatum/boundary distinction. It kills me though, I waited a year for her, and she lines up my replacement(s), breaks up with me, without even the decency to sit down and talk about it. I feel used and cheated on. Thinking about the course of the relationship, she was often very disrespectful, but I was too passive to call her on it.

I'd say date or not date, but not to stress over it either way.  I encourage finding ways that you can interact with new people that you can manage, not to seek out dates, but to simply increase your social circle organically.  You can likely find a person with whom you share interests just by being around other people.  Work on being friends with anyone frist, THEN worry about being closer if it looks agreeable.

Volunteer places you find interesting - I'm a fan of no-kill animal shelters, but there are lots of places that need helping hands, and having a task to do can help with any awkward feelings that purely social events can bring up.  Build houses with Habitat for Humanity.  Do a beach clean up.  Hell, even try out 5Ks or see if any churches have fundraisers and food drives.

Thanks for the advice! I stay busy, and thought about volunteering, but never really got into it.