Anyone staying to be the punching bag?

[sterlingblue]

Hello,

My uBPDw had another of her outbursts tonight after the kids went to bed.  We are supposed to travel to visit her parents in 8 days (to stay for three weeks), and she told me tonight she doesn't want me to come because of all the horrible, selfish things I've done, etc. etc... .typical stuff I've heard many times before.  I *think* she will change her mind and I will still end up going (we have two kids, s7 and s5, and it would be a lot for her to manage the kids there by herself for three weeks), but who knows?

Our relationship is not good, and it hasn't been for a while now.  Sometimes I think about leaving, but I fear that if I was not there to be her emotional regulator (i.e., punching bag), she would use the kids for this purpose.  Although her outbursts are painful for me, they could have long-term developmental implications for the kids.  Perhaps by staying, I can protect them from my wife's behavior, to some extent.

Does this line of thinking make sense?  Does anyone stay for the same reason? 

Sigh. It's hard to know what to do when you're on this emotional roller coaster and there are kids at stake.

Thanks for listening,
sterlingblue

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi sterlingblue and welcome!  

Sometimes I think about leaving, but I fear that if I was not there to be her emotional regulator (i.e., punching bag), she would use the kids for this purpose.  Although her outbursts are painful for me, they could have long-term developmental implications for the kids.  Perhaps by staying, I can protect them from my wife's behavior, to some extent.

It's obvious you care a lot about your kids and are a good parent. I am in a very similar situation and know the pain and stress of trying to keep a good environment for the kids. I know there are lots of members here struggling with the same.

If it was not for S5 and D2, it's highly likely I would have exited the relationship by now. It's still possible I might. For me it comes down to whether I can still manage to lead a happy life within the context of this marriage. I don't want to let my kids grow up with a deeply unhappy father since that might give them a very negative worldview.

How does the stress of your relationship with your wife effect your own interaction with the kids? Has their own behavior been effected as far as you can see?

Yrs,
~ROE

[sterlingblue]

Thanks for your reply!

For me it comes down to whether I can still manage to lead a happy life within the context of this marriage. I don't want to let my kids grow up with a deeply unhappy father since that might give them a very negative worldview.

This view makes a lot of sense to me and will help inform my own decision about whether to stay.  Thank you for sharing.

How does the stress of your relationship with your wife effect your own interaction with the kids? Has their own behavior been effected as far as you can see?

My oldest, S7, has started to notice that mommy gets in "moods" and is becoming hyper-attuned to it, which is somewhat sweet but mostly sad.  He has also remarked to both of us about how mommy just gets too mad sometimes.  I hoped that may give my wife some awareness of her behavior (I know she loves the kids), but it hasn't seemed to help.

[ILuvABorderline]

I have had similar thoughts. I actually discussed this with my counselor yesterday. I fear leaving, even if temporarily, because I don’t want our children to take a direct hit from the Borderline Beast. Our son, 9, is acutely aware of how his Daddy’s behavior effects me. He always says that he loves Daddy but hates OCD. (His catch all term for all of his dad’s struggles) I worry more about our daughter, 6, whom I feel is more vulnerable to feeling “responsible for her father’s happiness” than our son. Maybe because I struggle with the same issues and don’t want her to grow up like me. I worry that one day my husband’s rage will turn its ugly head towards our children with the cruel words. I fear at the very least, if I left him, he would turn them against me, especially our daughter. A slice of the Why I Stay pie is definitely related to the fact that I would rather take the abuse than the children and I do manage to keep much of it out of their view. Unfortunately it does take its toll. They end up bearing much of the brunt, unfairly, of my bad moods. I’ve gained 53lbs since things got really bad and I’ve aged so much in the past few years I’m barely recognizable. I firmly believe that after recent displays, Hubby would commit suicide if I left. A part of me feels like it’s better for the children to have a living dad than to grow up without one. I have enough of my own issues to know that I would never be able to not blame myself, if that makes sense.

[AskingWhy]

Each person has reasons for leaving or staying.  You are not alone in your thoughts.

Have you read, "Stop Walking On Eggshells," a guide for partners of pwBPD?

This might help you find answers.

Stay strong.

[Ltahoe]

I feel that many of us fear the same thing. I would word something longer but no need to repeat what you said. Only thing I would add is the less time I would have with my Childeren also is a  factor in my case.

[40days_in_desert]

I usually browse this board every once in a while but felt that maybe I can add some insight to this post. My ex and I have been apart three years and divorce will be final within a couple of weeks. Initially, it wasn't my choice to separate/divorce.

[40days_in_desert]

I accidentally hit post before I was done... .

As I said before, it wasn't my choice at first. She left and hooked up with another man then filed for divorce shortly after. A year and a half later, we mutually dismissed that case (logistical reasons as we both lived in another state). I ended up filing the second time even after several attempts by her to recycle the relationship. Quick fact: we were together 16.5 years and 5 children. After being apart and clear from always being off balance, I saw how toxic things were. The understanding that I came to was that our children needed at least one environment and one parent that could provide stability. I couldn't do anything about her but I can provide that stability for our children. I felt and feel what you feel about not seeing your children as much. Fortunately, my ex hasn't tried to keep our children from me so that is something that I haven't had to deal with. I live 5 minutes away and see them often during my non-custodial time. After three years, I can say that the time that I'm with them means much more and much less stressful because of obvious reasons that others are members of this site. Our oldest D has lived with me full time for two years and our second oldest recently asked to move in with me. I also will be going from 25% custody to 40% starting July 1st. All of this is related solely to my personal story and every person, BPD or not, is different. For me, it isn't about what's best for me. It's also what's best for our children.
If you feel that you want to try and make it work, that's what you should do. I was a place at one time where I desperately tried to find answers to what will happen next. The best advice I can give is to look back on the history of your relationship and see what has happened and you will see what will most likely continue to happen in the future. If you're ok with that, that's all that matters. You can work on you and possibly affect some change in your partner but ultimately do what they choose to do.
I wish you all the best and hope that it works out!

[defogging]

I haven't posted on here in awhile, but this thread hits home for me. 

I've lost all interest in my uBPDw.  I've gotten better at "handling" her, but it's so exhausting that I want to leave.  They always find another angle to attack you from.  After reading Eggshells and Stop Caretaking I've seen how much I need to stand up for myself and stop giving in to the crazy demands.  It's working, but it's rough and it won't ever be good.  She's made some overtures to
"talk" about things but I have no interest as I know it will lead to more irrational arguments that I have to end.

Anyways... .the three little kids (8,5,3) we have are the reason I stay.  I feel like I need to protect them from her craziness and I want to wait until they are older to move out.  They're too young to think independently so if I left it would really impact them.  I suppose I'll know when the time is right, just living day to day right now and looking out for the kids and my own well being.

At the end of Stop Caretaking there is a line that sticks with me.  Something like "Remember when you used to wake up and be really excited in the morning to go do something? "  I haven't felt that way in a long time, man do I miss that!

[sterlingblue]

OP here, thanks everyone for the great replies! 

Have you read, "Stop Walking On Eggshells," a guide for partners of pwBPD?

I've ordered it from Amazon and am waiting for it to arrive!

The best advice I can give is to look back on the history of your relationship and see what has happened and you will see what will most likely continue to happen in the future.

That makes a lot of sense and is very helpful.  Thank you!

just living day to day right now and looking out for the kids and my own well being

Yes! I used to be in a 12-step program (mom was an addict), and one of our mantras was to live Just For Today.  It helps makes things less overwhelming.  Thank you for the reminder.

Thanks everyone for the support, and take care this weekend.

[Radcliff]

sterlingblue, how has your weekend gone?  That's great that you've ordered "Eggshells."  Regardless of which way your relationship goes, spending some time with us learning the coping tools is important.  It may help you stay in the relationship successfully, or if you decide to leave, your work will help you know you did everything you could, and will help you to be a better co-parent.

40days_in_desert had some important thoughts to consider.  I'm about ten years ahead of you on my journey, with three teenagers.  One of the things I wish I'd appreciated ten years ago is the down sides of staying.  By bending like a pretzel to make everything work and sacrificing myself, I was not modeling a healthy relationship for my children.  I was also on an unsustainable course.  When the kids are young, they are much better able to handle a major reset, and you have many years to establish a new normal with a strong parenting role for yourself, where there is one home of complete safety for at least a large proportion of the time.  Within that safe space they can be nurtured and learn resilience and over time they will have the strength to understand which environment they want to replicate when they are grown.  I'm not telling you which direction to go in, but am encouraging you to understand you have choices, and choosing one healthy household much of the time over a single unhealthy household all of the time can be a viable choice.

Going back to your original post, let me try to be more succinct:  :)on't stay to protect your kids.  That's faulty logic.  My personal advice would be to invest yourself fully in doing everything within your control to make your marriage work for you, and if after giving it all the learning and effort you can give it things still aren't working out, then consider your options.

An outburst prior to travel is a very common story on this board.  It happened in my marriage before nearly every trip.  Stress makes BPD symptoms worse.  I found that being the steady one often worked.  There were day trips with the kids where my wife would be having a meltdown and insisting she wasn't going.  I would use soft words to her in passing, but continue getting ready for the trip.  I'd say that I really hoped that she'd go, that we'd miss her if she didn't go, but I didn't argue.  Quite a few times, after all the huffing and puffing, when the time came for us to pull out of the driveway, she got in the car and we went as a family after all.  :)on't pick a fight with her.  Just assume to yourself that you're going on the trip.  :)on't ask for permission to go.  :)on't let yourself get on an emotional roller coaster where you're wondering each day if you're going.  If she can have a rational discussion with you and you come to a mature conclusion together, that's a different story.
 Does that make sense?

When my wife was starting to have trouble, I'd sometimes recognize that the stress was making it worse, and could sometimes improve things by reducing her stress.  Sometimes it was directly -- by figuring out that she was upset about something and validating her emotions.  Sometimes it was indirectly -- by taking something stressful off of her plate or supporting her to reduce her stress in a way she found acceptable.  :)o you know what things are stressing your wife now?

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Don't stay to protect your kids.  That's faulty logic.  My personal advice would be to invest yourself fully in doing everything within your control to make your marriage work for you, and if after giving it all the learning and effort you can give it things still aren't working out, then consider your options.

sterlingblue I think Wentworth's advice is golden and touched me deep inside since I am struggling with the same problems as you. I realized some time ago that with the proper tools and therapy, it is conceivable that my marriage could become "tolerable" as opposed to the current state of intolerable, e.g., her getting drunk last night and trying to get D2 to pee on the floor so I have to clean it up. This is not a marriage, and a marriage should be far more than "tolerable". If she can get to a point where she can not only stop these things, but also recognize and validate my feelings, then it's possible I might stay. And I'm leaving the door open on that for a little while since she's made overtures towards getting help. But not forever.

If you haven't already, I suggest trying to visualize what a real relationship should look like, whether it's with her, someone you know, or someone you make up completely. It occurred to me today that many people actually look forward to going home and seeing their spouses and that their spouses can listen to them when they are upset about something in the relationship. When I imagine how those things would feel, it puts the essential wrongness of my marriage into context, wrongness I had normalized for too many years.

~ROE

[sterlingblue]

Wentworth,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.  My weekend has not been good.  My wife has been angry and changed her plan several times in the last few days.  I don't know if she will be going to visit her parents, and if so, whether I will be going with her.  I have no idea what will happen this week.

Something new happened today: We were out playing baseball with the kids (S7 and S5), and she kept complaining that they weren't swinging right and that if my oldest went out for fall baseball, "it would be a disaster".  I told her that wasn't a healthy thing to say in front of him; it could destroy his confidence.  Later I took the kids out myself and asked them if the things Mommy was saying were bothering them.  S5 said, "Mommy's temper has been really bad lately".  I think my wife overheard this and is upset that I talked to them about her behavior; she hasn't spoken to me since.  Should I have talked to them about her behavior? I'm not trying to turn them against her, but I want them to know they can talk to me when her behavior is bothering them.

Thank you for your thoughts about staying vs. leaving.  They make sense and will give me lots to think about.

I wish I could take the kids on trips independent of my wife, but she won't let me take them anywhere because she doesn't trust me to keep them safe.  I fear that if I ever did try to take them somewhere myself, she would call the police.

Finally, thank you for prompting me to think about her stress.  I do have some ideas of what may be stressing her out, and perhaps I can help with that.

Thanks again for responding and for caring about my situation; it really means a lot.

sterlingblue

[sterlingblue]

Thank you, ROE.  I am so sorry about what your wife did last night.  That is awful behavior.

You are right that the things we put up with are not what a relationship should be.  It's sad.

I hope you can find peace and have a good day tomorrow.  I'm so grateful for your support and that of the community here.

sterlingblue

[Radcliff]

You raise a good question about talking to your sons about her behavior.  It's perilous territory.  She can get upset.  She could accuse you of alienating them if she were ever to talk to someone else.  They might get confused or upset.

I'm sorry for what you're having to deal with.  Derogatory comments from one's fellow parent to a child are incredibly difficult to witness.  You can't control her actions, as much as you would like to.  Is this kind of behavior from her common, or only when she is under unusual stress?

The safest thing to do is to bolster them up when you have time with them, and make as good use as possible of time when she is out of earshot, so she does not try to undo your work.  For example, on the baseball thing, you'll want some time to talk to your son.  Probably several very short interactions over the summer.  Plus, you can practice with him.  If he has the potential to be good, reinforce that.  If he's not that athletic, reinforce how much you believe in him, and that sports are about participation and fun and improving your skills, not necessarily being the best kid on the team.  You get the idea.  Think about the negative messages she is sending, and make a mental note to send them the positive opposite messages.  Make sense?

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi sterlingblue,

I second WW 100% on this. It's all about the messaging.

In the past, I wouldn't say or do anything when my wife was up to no good because I thought parents had to show a united front. But I think united front goes out the window when one parent is borderline.

That said, the opposite message shouldn't be shared when the BPD parent is around. Until recently, I had taken to stepping between my wife and S5 when she would be verbally abusive to him (usually something like how she would send him to live with the nanny forever).  I told her she couldn't do that to him. These conflicts could escalate and sometimes even get a little physical and more scary for the kids.

It's heartbreaking for me to sit there and listen while she says things that hurt him emotionally, but (on Wentworth's sage advice) I decided it was better not to step in because she would redouble her efforts on him just to hurt me. When she's away or out of the house, I try to sit down with S5 and send the right messaging "Mommy and daddy love you, you will always be with us, we would never send you away".

Think this is doable?

~ROE

[sterlingblue]

Argh, I messed up tonight.  My sister, who has 6 kids, is in serious financial distress.  She has tax liens, wage garnishments, and may lose her house soon. My wife has been texting her, talking with my brother's wife about her situation, etc. I am and have been quite detached about this because I believe my sister brought this on herself and still refuses to accept responsibility or make the necessary changes to improve her situation.

While my wife was texting my family members all night, I put our kids to bed.  Then she starts criticizing me about how I am so cold and have serious emotional deficiencies because I don't care about my sister, she never should have married me, etc.  I said to her, "You don't care about my sister. You are only using her situation as a reason to criticize me".

Honestly, I believe my statement is about 40% true.  I do believe my wife cares about my sister and our nieces and nephews (60%), but also that she loves to criticize me (40%).  I know I shouldn't have said what I did, though.  I've already sent two emails  to her apologizing.

As you can imagine, this did not go over well.  She told me to be out of the house by the time she wakes up tomorrow, and she will take the kids to visit her parents (for who knows how long?) by herself.

I am angry with myself for being triggered into saying something nasty.  Now I may not see my kids (S7 and S5) for weeks, and I'm worried about how this may affect them.  They may think I'm abandoning them.  Any tips on how to improve this situation?

Thanks for listening,
sterlingblue

[Radcliff]

OK, just so we're all in agreement, you JADEing to your wife is not a sufficient reason for her to take them away from you for weeks.

Your best short term bet may be to ignore her threat, and just play it straight.  You overstepped and got snippy, and she deserves an apology.  We know you deserve an apology, too, but you can come here for empathy.  Ignore her sins of the night before and own up to yours.  I wouldn't gush at her.  Just be a confident, loving husband and give her the apology she deserves from you.  If there are helpful things you can do to brighten her mood, like get the kids ready for school, cook her breakfast, etc., do anything that you thing has a good chance of helping, but be aware of her mood.  If it looks like your presence is triggering her, head off to work with a bright smile on your face.  If she threatens you, don't storm off or fight back, say, "I hope you don't leave, I know I was a cad, but I'd sure miss you all, and particularly would miss you," with a warm smile, then head off to work.

Let us know how it goes.  If she does leave with the kids, give us the full scoop on what went down, and we'll talk about Plan B.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

sterlingblue,

Everything WW said. And I do not suggest leaving the house in any matter inconvenient to you. It is YOUR house as much as anyone's, you contribute to the (rent? mortgage?), you've cared for her and your children in it, it is your home and there is not a soul on this planet with the right to command you to leave it for any period of time.

If my advice is more emotional than practical on this point, its because I once allowed my wife to kick me out over nothing bigger than the argument you described. And transfer almost every drop of money I had to her and say goodbye to my son forever. That was four years ago. And even recently, I've still allowed her to make me feel ashamed to be in my house. No more. If anyone should feel ashamed, it's her. When I am home now, I hold my head with pride no matter what mood she is in.

My wife also took the kids away to a hotel once (wow we  could not afford this), but eventually she cooled down and asked me to come join them. Do you think your wife really has the steam to follow through on that threat? Please keep us updated on this so we can help you form an action plan.

~ROE

[sterlingblue]

WW and ROE,

Thanks for the responses after last night's situation.  I gave her a heartfelt apology, she accepted it and said, "I've said a lot of things I don't mean", and we are back on to go visit her parents together. 

She tends to behave better when we are at her parents' place, so I may get a nice break for a while.

I am so grateful to have found this community. I have been alienated from friends and family, and I suppose they wouldn't really understand anyway.  So THANK YOU all for helping me get through this latest episode.

Sincerely,
sterlingblue

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the update!  I'm glad the trip plan has been restored.

How is your wife's relationship with her family of origin?  Does visiting them stress her out?

One of the mistakes I made was to simply rest and gather my wits once a storm had subsided.  It's totally natural to want to do this, but the calm times are the best times to make progress on individual learning and on the relationship.  I know you're not going to want to rock the boat at all before the trip, but have you had a chance to look at the lessons in the right-hand sidebar?

WW