Marriage in crisis: I became depressed, she pulled away, I want more intimacy

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello,

My wife and I have been separated in our home - her choice - for about 6 months. We have twin boys that are six years old and are happy and healthy for the most part.

Last fall I took on a new job that was very stressful and began to become depressed.My wife seemed to become alarmed and unsupportive. In fact as I became more depressed, she pushed away more and more which I couldn't understand, till eventually we entered into this state. She has told me several times over the past few months that she doesn't want to be with me anymore. She told me she has looked for apartments, even suggesting at one point that we share time at an apartment, while our boys stay at home.I love my boys and do not want to spend time away from them.

She wrote me a letter this past weekend stating that she appreciates the peace I have brought to our lives the last few months - I have stopped fighting with her and have managed to not be provoked by her hostility, but she can't risk returning to the emotional abuse of the past ten years. She insists that I have been emotionally abusive to her.

Anyway, someone suggested I read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" recently, and it was a revelation. Our separation was provoked in part by a fight we had that ended with her attacking me, scratching my face and hitting me. Over the years I have definitely lost my temper at times, but I have never been physically abusive or threatening, though I have been accused of it many times. We have gone to counseling, but whenever we go, I always feel as though she backs out when we start to get somewhere. Our last marriage counselor focused on me and my depression, and did not hold her accountable. My wife tends to make promises in counseling that she fails to live up to, and when I try to hold her accountable, she gets hostile.

I love my boys and I love her. I have read a great deal about separation, and how to win your wife back. I have tried not to invalidate her feelings. I have tried to make her feel safe. It fees as though whenever she gets close to trusting me again, she pushes away by telling me she doesn't want to be with me. My counselor thinks I am on the right track, but there are no guarantees of course.

I am lonely and the physical distance is hard. I want more intimacy. Giving up and moving on from her would mean time away from my boys, which I don't want. Sometimes she is very hostile with them too, which I feel like I need to protect them from.

I am glad to have found this site and am looking for encouragement, and hopeful advice.

[k54]

Hello,

My wife and I have been separated in our home - her choice - for about 6 months. We have twin boys that are six years old and are happy and healthy for the most part.

Last fall I took on a new job that was very stressful and began to become depressed.My wife seemed to become alarmed and unsupportive. In fact as I became more depressed, she pushed away more and more which I couldn't understand, till eventually we entered into this state. She has told me several times over the past few months that she doesn't want to be with me anymore. She told me she has looked for apartments, even suggesting at one point that we share time at an apartment, while our boys stay at home.I love my boys and do not want to spend time away from them.

She wrote me a letter this past weekend stating that she appreciates the peace I have brought to our lives the last few months - I have stopped fighting with her and have managed to not be provoked by her hostility, but she can't risk returning to the emotional abuse of the past ten years. She insists that I have been emotionally abusive to her.

Anyway, someone suggested I read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" recently, and it was a revelation. Our separation was provoked in part by a fight we had that ended with her attacking me, scratching my face and hitting me. Over the years I have definitely lost my temper at times, but I have never been physically abusive or threatening, though I have been accused of it many times. We have gone to counseling, but whenever we go, I always feel as though she backs out when we start to get somewhere. Our last marriage counselor focused on me and my depression, and did not hold her accountable. My wife tends to make promises in counseling that she fails to live up to, and when I try to hold her accountable, she gets hostile.

I love my boys and I love her. I have read a great deal about separation, and how to win your wife back. I have tried not to invalidate her feelings. I have tried to make her feel safe. It fees as though whenever she gets close to trusting me again, she pushes away by telling me she doesn't want to be with me. My counselor thinks I am on the right track, but there are no guarantees of course.

I am lonely and the physical distance is hard. I want more intimacy. Giving up and moving on from her would mean time away from my boys, which I don't want. Sometimes she is very hostile with them too, which I feel like I need to protect them from.

I am glad to have found this site and am looking for encouragement, and hopeful advice.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi karl54,



This indeed sounds very stressful! Hopefully by updating your story and supporting others you can help build this up as a significant part of your support system! There is a lot of wisdom around here!

Are you treating your own depression? Why do you think trust is an issue? Did something happen that made her not trust you or is it just how she is in general?

Have you seen any of the lessons to the right of the board yet? 

wishing you peace, pearl.

[k54]

Thanks for your reply. I have been treating my own depression. I am doing much better. I have been regularly seeing a counselor, have many supportive friends and family, and am taking an antidepressant and I am much better.

I guess I feel like she doesn't trust me. In the past when she has been distant or rejecting of me sexually I have become irritated and pushed her to try to find solutions either in counseling or by direct discussion. I have invalidated her feelings as a regular course of action. They seemed so irrational to me that at times I have called her crazy, or been contemptuous of her. She has often times accused me of being controlling, although this has only been in the last year or so. I have given her as much space as possible.

I have seen the lessons and have started to work through them.

[zachira]

Your marriage is in crisis and you are feeling lost as there do not seem to be satisfactory solutions in sight. In the present moment, you have done nearly everything you can by getting your depression treated and going to marriage counseling. You have two young children whom you would not see as much if you got divorced. You are looking for encouragement and hopeful advice.
The most hopeful encouragement that I can give you is that you are doing nearly all you can to be the best person you can be in the moment and to becoming a stronger happy healthier person for the future. All that you are doing is going to help you to be less reactive to what happens and to spend less time upset about the difficult times you are going through. You are learning what you are made of, some of which includes: courage, the ability to face difficult and challenging circumstances, and moving in a forward direction. You are role modeling for your sons behaviors that will teach them to be the best people they can be.
There are many people on this site who have been in similar situations to yours, and have come out on the other side, happier than they have ever though possible. There are also many people on this site who are in the heat of the struggle in similar situations to yours. Do read other posts, and educational materials, as there is a lot of heartwarming caring understanding of how to make things better, and/or how to just get through the day when it all seems pretty hopeless. Take care and keep us posted. We are here to listen, and welcome feedback on how we can be the most helpful and understanding.

[k54]

I'll also add that she has told me that she is afraid to continue our relationship because she can't risk another 10 years of pain and misery. She says that the ten years with me were filled with her repressing her identity and feeling endlessly criticized.

The trust I am talking about is that she doesn't trust that we wont return to that dynamic. I have been completely self sacrificing in the last six months, and have not engaged in any arguments with her, even when she has been very hostile.  I have given her carte blanche - she goes out late at night regularly with little to no communication. The following days she is sometimes exhausted and irritable. She has been smoking pot habitually, sometimes at 8:00 in the morning on weekends. It amazes me how she just seems completely oblivious and unapologetic about her anger, and when it is projected on to our children, she has in the past tried to blame me for it. Other times she is kind and complementary to me."You are a great dad, these guys are so lucky to have you."

Through it all I have been supportive and almost passive. Some members in my family have encouraged me to leave, "she doesn't deserve you,"but like I said I'm not ready to do that.

[pearlsw]

Hi karl54,

It is one thing to stop having ugly, pointless arguments, but it not a good idea to completely let the other person run over you. Not sure how far this has gotten. If you are entirely trying to avoid conflict. I am not throwing stones here, there are days I hope one of us will fall asleep rather than have a problem. But I do try to have my say. When I can see I am not being listened to, for whatever reason, or his anger shows up, I can exit and not add fuel to things.

Okay. So it sounds like she does not want to fight either. Does she express any desire to improve things?

What do you think she meant by "repressing her identity" by being in a relationship with you?

What would you like to tell her about the nights out and pot smoking if you could be heard? Want to tell us instead for now?

take care, pearl.

[zachira]

I was once told by a therapist that if a person is smoking pot, it is impossible to motivate him/her to do anything. We are here to support you and understand that you are not ready to leave your marriage. We do not take a stand on whether to leave or stay because you know what is best for you and what your situation is. Keep in touch!

[k54]

I don't know what to say to her. I have been waiting for an opening I guess. A time when she has indicated she can trust me again.

Part of what precipitated this is my opposition to the nights out. She would often times, and still does, leave in the middle of a family activity.

She says she is a feminist and a dancer, a woman who is expressive and liberated. Since we have been married she has felt controlled and judged - just the way her mother made her feel when she was a teenager - she says her mother is also emotionally abusive. (her mother is pretty harsh at times) She has said she can't allow herself to feel that way anymore. She has made a lot of the mid-life crisis type claims too. Wants to devote more to her career, her friendships, she has lost a lot of weight. She has a single friend who is very self-indulgent that she spends a lot of time with too. Most of her oldest friends have families too and we rarely see them anymore.

I had been just trying to wait out her midlife crisis, but I think I now understand what has been going on long term better. I am starting to wonder if she will ever come back.

[pearlsw]

Hi karl54,

So in term of separation what are we talking here? Just more distance between you two? Was there a time frame for this? A plan of any kind? Is she seeing other people?

What would you say to her right now if you could do it without any fear of consequences?

warmly, pearl.

[k54]

We are not seeing other people, there is no time frame. We still have meals together nearly every night. The separation is no physical intimacy other than hugging. We sleep in different bed rooms for 6 months now, taking turns putting the boys to bed. She leaves and goes out most nights when I put them to bed.

I guess I would tell her that I love her, and I think we could be happy together - I have already told her this. I don't think there is anything I could tell her that would get her to seek help, or take responsibility for some of our relationship. But I would like her to. I have told her many times that she needs to take some responsibility, but that is what drives her away. She accused me in the past of accusing her of being crazy - which is a typical thing for a repressive male to say to an outspoken woman.

I have told her I don't want to fight with her anymore, and tried to show her this. I think she has noticed, and that is part of why she has stayed this long.

I wish she could see how she treats our boys some times. I wish she could see how much better their lives will be if we can resolve or improve our life. I know I can't tell her I think she has BPD, but I would love to get her to understand, I think it could ease some of her pain. She also drinks probably too much as well.

I wish I knew 10 years ago what I have learned in the last month or so. I could have showed her more patience, and when she trusted me I could have maybe helped her find help.

She fell in love with me immediately and in the beginning our sex was very passionate and exciting. When it started to slide, I became resentful and confused, I would get irritated she didn't want to try to improve things. There were a few aborted attempts at counseling. I wish I would have been more patient and loving and less entitled.

[k54]

One thing I think I'm trying to figure out is how to work to improve things. It was on Valentines day that in counseling she told me she did't want to work on things anymore. Since then we have been more ore less stalemated.  I can feel her at times wanting to be closer, but usually what follows is some intentional pushing away, or attempt to provoke me. So far I have not taken then bait.

When we were in counseling after our initial fight I made a concerted effort to follow the advice of the counselor, and do the work we were supposed to do, but she was resistant. Our counselor repeatedly would let her off the hook. I became very frustrated, at which point she would say I was being abusive.

There were a lot of promises she would make, but she would fail to keep them. Sometimes she would say she didn't even remember making the promise, which would leave me flabbergasted. Once our counselor said "I will hold her to it" only to not hold her to it.

I'm really at a loss. She refuses to go to counseling, which was a disaster anyway. She doesn't seem to be leaving, although insisted that she doesn't want to be married as recently as last weekend.

I would say one defining characteristic that she has is that the best way to make sure she doesn't do something, is to ask her to do it. So, as my counselor advises me, whatever she does, it has to be her idea. So I just have to keep doing my best to take care of our family, and hope she comes around at least a little bit. But its hard and lonely. I once told her that I was lonely - back in January - to which she replied "thats your problem, I don't get lonely."

[Radcliff]

There is so much in your situation that I can relate to.  I'm going to take some time to reply more fully.  With someone as committed as you are, I think there's substantial room for improvement, though I understand just how exhausting your situation is.

Am I hearing you right that you still hug each other?  That seems like a bright spot amidst a bunch of blight.  Can you tell me a bit more about that?  How often do you hug?  Who initiates?  When are hugs likely to happen?

Are there any other bright spots, good aspects about the relationship that are still surviving, embers to be rekindled?

WW

[k54]

Thanks for your reply. I am really piecemealing  this story out. We do hug almost everyday. Sometimes she initiates, sometimes I do. She occasionally gives me a kiss on the cheek. Sometimes the hugs are very earnest. Much of this began over the last year as she started going out to dance late at night. She was a raver in her youth, and had begun to go to middle age techno shows. There is one every Sunday night that she goes to. It starts about 6 pm and goes till 1100 or so.  She will also sometimes go to shows at 11:00 pm - 4:00am, but the original conflict was over the Sunday night shows. It started to interfere with our family life as she was planning around it all the time. Also, as I mentioned, our sex life has been a source of conflict. As I became depressed this fall I would ask her to stay home on Sundays, and she refused, saying I was trying to control her. We would fight, and ultimately we had the big blowout where she attacked me. There are many other conflicts of course, but I now realize much of this is besides the point.

[k54]

There are still many bright spots. We do a lot of things together. Yesterday we went to a protest march with our kids. We still live together. We have been doing a lot of work around our house, fixing it up. She made me breakfast in bed on Fathers day, saying "you are a great dad, these guys are so lucky to have you.

I myself was raised by abusive parents, my mother is a drug addict, my father had Huntingtons disease.In the past I was very invalidating of her fear and anxiety. I have acknowledged much of this over the past few months and she seems to appreciate that. But I know she is still afraid of me.

The hugs are usually at the end of the day, or when someone is leaving.

[Radcliff]

Wow, you really do seem to have some things to build on here.  I'm not invalidating any of the things you've said about the tough challenges, though -- I know how discouraging it can seem to be.

One of the tricks to these situations is that our pwBPD don't give us accurate feedback sometimes.  They can blow up at us even if we do something right, or appear to blow up about something when in fact it's something completely different they are upset about.  This can be discouraging and demotivating to a "non" partner who is desperate for accurate feedback about what to do and what not to do.  Part of the key to making things better is to rely less on immediate feedback from her that you're doing well, and rely more on your inner compass.  We can also give you feedback to help you stay grounded when you're doing well and need some backup.

Tell us more about the Sunday night shows.  Is this something that you could support and make happen for her, if it is a priority for her to get some "me" time?  If you could get a sitter would you and she enjoy it if you went with her?  If you had an evening a week dedicated to an activity outside the house, is there something you would enjoy doing?

WW

[juju2]

Glad you found us Karl.  I went thru separation, leading up to it was lack of intimacy, my depression, we were together ten years when we separated last year.
I thought we were doing a healing separation of sorts, on his way out the door he said we are broken up and he will be dating others... .after one month, i realized i made the biggest mistake of my life, a begged him to come back, told him it was the biggest mistake, and i was sorry.  I looked pathetic.
He said, its done.  He would hear none of it. 
Then he had to have surgery, there was no one to take him, i offered, then, i was to spend the nite at his house, because of the surgery.  He needed someone there... .he became a little bit more close to me, still cold.

Then, we went into six months of me taking us on trips, having fun, i was wooing him.  We took a trip w his dtr and two grandkids, and it was fun.

Then, there is a lot more, basically, he is really acting like mid life crisis. 

If i could re-do this whole thing, i would have never asked for us to separate. 

I would have done the things i ended up doing, losing weight, taking classes after work, developing my own life.  I could have done that w him and i still living together.  It looks that way now.  I didnt realize how much he meant to me, how much inner work i needed to do (for co dependency), i was always blaming him, in my head.  My attitude was horrible.
Hope you can gain wisdom and help here.  There are options.
j

[k54]

Thanks juju.

I have a pretty busy life. I am an elected official and spend usually at least one night, maybe two out. But I usually can get home by bedtime for my kids. My wife and I used to get babysitters for some events- she liked to go as she has been somewhat active politically too. We do talk about politics - she has said that she admires me as a public figure.

The hard thing for the dance parties has been all the changing targets. She originally said it would be every other week, and only during the summer, but then it became every week, or sometimes twice a week, and then it became permanent.

I made some big mistakes before I realized what was going on.

I gave her ultimatums about intimacy. Last summer I told her that she needed to decide if she wanted to be married or not. And if she wanted to be, then we needed to work on our sex life. For a while, that was great, but in the long run, she began to resent the obligation.

Then after we had our blowout, I tried to force her to seek counseling. She made a phone call one day, and that phone consultation has her convinced I was emotionally abusive. Shortly thereafter she had a panic attack. We went to counseling a few times after that, but she refused to do much of the stuff.

I was fortunate ultimately to find a helpful book about separation and dealing with a spouse in mid life crisis. I just wish I had understood earlier and could have been more supportive. As my counselor says "you only know what you know when you know it."

I wrote her letters where I took responsibility for probably too much, and now I am pretty sure I am devalued. She has many of the attractive traits folks mention in BPD. Very beautiful, charismatic, stylish, fun. Now I understand better why she has always been full of anxiety, such a perfectionist, and seemingly so much a stranger to herself. I know I could have done a better job of supporting her.

I know now better than to give ultimatums, for a while I guess I have been practicing radical acceptance. I guess one question I have is will she ever forgive me. In order for her to do that I think though, she will have to take some responsibility. As my sister says though, "she never takes responsibility for anything."

One crazy thing I never understood about her was how she was so quick to judge people and situations. I always felt at some point she might flip on me, and I don't know if that will ever flip back. Does that ever happen with BPD? Not saying I want idealization, but will she ever trust me again not to hurt her?

[Radcliff]

I know now better than to give ultimatums, for a while I guess I have been practicing radical acceptance. I guess one question I have is will she ever forgive me. In order for her to do that I think though, she will have to take some responsibility. As my sister says though, "she never takes responsibility for anything."

One crazy thing I never understood about her was how she was so quick to judge people and situations. I always felt at some point she might flip on me, and I don't know if that will ever flip back. Does that ever happen with BPD? Not saying I want idealization, but will she ever trust me again not to hurt her?

Being forgiven, her taking responsibility, and her re-valuing you -- those are all good things to manage your expectations on, as sad as it may be.  Some of my most painful experiences have been hoping for things I cannot control in my relationship.

It sounds like you've learned quite a bit in a short amount of time.  We all have regrets, wishing we'd known more sooner!

Regarding the dance parties, take a look at this link on setting boundaries.  You can't control her behavior.  But you can control what you offer support for.  You can be either implicit or explicit.  You could say something to yourself like, "I totally support her going to one dance party a week with advanced notice, and if she goes to more, I'm not supportive, but I'll let go of trying to change it."  Or you could say to her what you support, while acknowledging that she'll make the choice for herself and you can't control her.

Where do you think your relationship currently stands on boundaries?  Are there areas where you need to establish boundaries to protect yourself, and areas were you need to let go of things about her you can't control?

WW

[k54]

Hoping for things I can't control, that is definitely something I do too often. I don't know how I can be more apathetic though.

My kids are only going to be 6 years old once, and there is so much more joy they could be experiencing. I don't understand why she can't see that.

[zachira]

Sad as it is, you have hit the nail on the head by recognizing that your children's mother does not know how to enjoy her children the way an emotionally engaged parents does. I admire your courage in being there for your children and doing everything you can to be the best father you can be. You are making a big difference in your children's lives by being there for them. Keep us posted on how you are doing. We are here to support you.

[Radcliff]

You're getting some great support here from pearlsw, zachira, and juju2!

Hoping for things I can't control, that is definitely something I do too often. I don't know how I can be more apathetic though.

My kids are only going to be 6 years old once, and there is so much more joy they could be experiencing. I don't understand why she can't see that.

I can understand your frustration as a dad to feel that together you and your wife could help them experience more joy if you could get her to see things a little differently.  Can you give us some more detail on that?  Which of your wife's behaviors do you see as most impactful to your children?

The most important advice I can think of for you is to become a boundaries ninja.  We teach boundaries as a way to protect yourself from someone else's behaviors.  There is also a broader sense of boundaries that involves us understanding what we can control and can't control, and respecting others' autonomy, even when we don't agree with what they are doing.  There's a book, Boundaries, by Cloud and Townsend, that explains this well (it's heavy on Biblical references, and though that's not my style, I found it quite valuable).  Boundaries reduces the wear and tear on you, and reduce the frustration and resentment that can build up inside you.  Are you willing to put some effort into building the boundary skill?

WW

[k54]

Thanks for much great support. Someone asked what I would say To my wife if I could. Here is a letter I wrote to her last night. I think I may send it to her but I’m not sure:

“I love you _____I know that you don’t want to stay married to me because you are afraid that your future will be filled with pain arguing, and anxiety. You are afraid that I will continue to not listen to you.

Indeed I regret that I have not done more to support you aver the last eleven years to make your life more peaceful. At times I mocked you or put you down or minimized or even ignored your fears and desires. This I truly regret and I wish I hadn’t done. I wish I would have treated you better and listened better over the years as you tried to explain. I did not understand your pain. I wish I would have.

On one of our first dates, as we walked down the sidewalk you told me how hard it was for you simply to walk down the sidewalk with people looking at you. I didn’t get it. I made a joke about it. I wish I would have been more understanding. Probably it was your hope when we married that I could help make a lot of the anxiety you lived with go away. But i didn’t. Instead it got worse.

I also didn’t understand my own mental health and the impact it had on you. I also had hoped that the pain and fear I lived with would go away when we were married. I expected you to make it go away. But as I know now, you can not expect another person to make your pain go away. That is work you must do for yourself. You loved me the best way you knew how, and it probably seemed like that wasn’t good enough for me. I’m sorry. It was good enough. You are all I could hope for in a wife and partner and more.

Yet despite my failures there have many beautiful accomplishments in our time together. You have accomplished much in your career. As have I. We have a beautiful home and a great community surrounding us and supporting us. Both our families give us so much love and support. And of course we have two beautiful boys whose lives are full of love and support. These are things that we have done together, as a team.

Yet still you are afraid that the next ten years will continue to bring you pain. And they may. I cannot make your fear and anxiety go away, you had it before you met me, you have it now, and it will continue to be a daily challenge for you. But it can get better. I can do a better job supporting you.

it will probably continue to be a struggle for you to walk down the sidewalk, but I will do my best to remember to walk down the sidewalk with you, on the side away from the street to protect you from the splashing puddles. I know I can’t protect you from everything, but I promise to do better.

I write this to you knowing that it may not make a difference. That as you said, you can’t risk another ten years of pain. But I know that you still love me. And I have hope that our future together will be brighter. Yes I am afraid that things won’t work out, or that bad things may happen if we stay together. But as you know, I am an optimist. I believe it is better to make decisions based on hope and love, rather than fear and anxiety.

 Please don’t make this decision based on fear and anxiety, make it based on hope and love. I ask you to open your heart to me again. I promise to treat it like the big, beautiful, precious thing that it is.
Thank you so much for the last 12+ years together.

I love you with all my heart.”



I am interested to hear thoughts

[Radcliff]

That is a powerful letter, full of genuine, important emotions.

I am by no means the last word on this, so I'm hoping that other members will contribute their perspective, but I think rather than sending that letter it might be better to use it as inspiration to have several shorter conversations with her.  You might even keep a journal as you address each of the sentiments, and record what happened.

There is so much important stuff there, I'm thinking several things -- she might not be able to absorb it all at once, the more things there are the greater the chance that one of them will rub her the wrong way, and any admissions you make, she may pull out of context and use against you later, forgetting the good parts.  Again, I'd appreciate hearing more from others, but am thinking that putting that much in writing has more liabilities than benefits.  The only things I'm willing to write down are short, positive sentiments like you'd put in a nice note for someone.

Any one of the things in your letter could be a great conversation starter.  Especially the ones that validate her.  For example, the one about the comment she made about walking down the street.  Even that could go wrong -- I wouldn't mention the joke, since that could trigger her to think how horrible you are -- but to say that you didn't understand certain things early on, but now do, could be good.  Perhaps even lead it into a conversation about how you can better support her now, if things seem constructive.

WW

[k54]

I have written two letters to her over the past six months.

The first one I took responsibility for putting too much pressure on her to have more sex. She told me it was such a nice letter but got mad at me because of the timing - she said i was trying to manipulate her.

The second one I took responsibility for all our fighting. Including being emotionally abusive to her. That time she got mad at me because I included in the letter an invitation for her to tell me anything she wants to with a promise to listen. She has insisted on no discussions about our relationship.

Obviously I didn't anticipate either of those things. So I could see her getting angry about something I don't anticipate this time too.

I wish I could find some way to break this stalemate though. It's killing me. I feel so used some times.

[pearlsw]

Hi karl54,

I liked the ideas that WW suggested, but I can see how that might not work given that she has essentially erected a form of silent treatment with you around the relationship - won't let you make efforts to resolve it.

Silent treatment is a very serious stage of a relationship. It really can't recover without communication. I can understand your need and desire to write this letter. I think although it has not been received 100% enthusiastically in the past, well, at least it was not outright rejected. Sounds like she did find some value in it.

I think that for your own sanity, you may need to just say what you can to her in this form. It isn't perfect, but it may be the only way to pry her open a bit. I don't see how long she thinks she can go on in this cold war state with you.

Has she ever expressed a long term plan? Is she determined just to stick around for the kids or is there any part of her that is open to you?

Does she want an entirely separate social life from you? Do you do things in common (just you and her, kids with a baby sittter) that could help bring you closer again?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[k54]

Her long term plan is to move out at some point. In March she told me she had been looking for apartments.

A couple of weeks ago she wrote me a. It’s that said she didn’t want to be married to me or be my lover.

As far as I know she hasn’t t done anything though. She is not one to show a lot of follow through. I’m pretty sure she is afraid to be on her own. Heck she doesn’t even know how to look up our checking account balance.

I have been playing the waiting game. Giving her as much space as possible. There has been almost no time for us together without the kids since February. I know she has three appointments scheduled with her counselor in the next few weeks.

This past weekend my cousin and his girlfriend got married. I know she really liked both of them but she wouldn’t go up to the wedding because she said she has too much anxiety about us fighting. Then she gave me a FaceTime call yesterday  because she says she missed the boys. Then when we drove home from the wedding, she had already left to go out dancing. When she came home the boys were in bed and she went in and slept with them. She didn’t even ask me about the wedding.

I don’t know what to do.

[Radcliff]

A couple of things you said really resonated with my personal experience in a long marriage.  That she won't talk about the relationship, and that she talks about being alone enough to harm the relationship but appears scared to do anything about it.  It makes total sense that you would feel used when she continues to benefit from your caretaking but is not meeting your needs or even talking about having a better relationship.

You could go on like this for another ten years.  I did.  I don't recommend it.  If I could go back 10 years with what I know now, I'd become a ninja with all of the tools we teach here, work with the help of a therapist, and also do a much better job of self-care, looking out for my own needs, and boundaries.  The next 10 years are critical for you and your boys.  You deserve a good decade, and they should see their dad behaving in healthy ways and in a healthy situation.  Sorry, I got up on a bit of a soap box there -- I know since you're here that you're already doing better than I was 10 years ago.

OK, that not talking about the relationship issue is pretty darn frustrating.  It's the go-to tool for the rest of the world!  But I think it's pretty common that our pwBPD have a hard time talking about the relationship.  Let me see if an example works -- when folks talk about managing problems with employees, customers, or kids, they can take an "intellectual" approach, basically reasoning with the person, or they can take a "behavioral" approach, with limits, rewards, and consequences for example.  In a higher-functioning situation, you use intellectual methods, and in a lower functioning one, you use behavioral.

I'm thinking you're going to need to give up talking about the relationship.  Maybe someday you'll get to do a bit of it, but certainly for now, no sit-down deep discussions.  You'll need to guide a relationship "discussion" that's really a set of life experiences.  Think about your boys -- you aren't having long discussions with them, are you?  But you are teaching them about caring attachment, respect, and all those other good things by example.

Just to keep things interesting, I'm going to have to disagree with pearl on the letter.  Take the letter as inspiration.  Look at all the messages you want to send to her.  Some of them you can show through actions, repeatedly.  Some you could do with words about a single message, at an appropriate opportunity, as a quick thing, not a discussion that burdens her with responding.  You can also repeat those verbal messages every so often.  Think of every time she gets upset about something as a gift of information -- look to identify the inner fear that it represents, and look for ways to send reassuring messages.  

Remember, you could do everything right, be a total hero, and your relationship still may not get to where you want/need it to be.  Step up and give it your all, doing everything you can, but don't place an expectation on yourself that you bear sole responsibility for the success or failure of the relationship.

So now that we've talked about everything you're doing for her, let's talk about you.  How is the depression going?  Any better?  How is work?  Is the job still very stressful?

WW

[k54]

Thanks Pearl and WW for great feedback.

I do want to break the silence,  but probably the most progress has been made through action. I have been using the times she gets upset as opportunities. I think probably I could continue to work towards that. It seems to me that whenever she starts to feel vulnerable she pushes away. She has to prove to herself that she doesn’t need me or something. But enough about her.

I am doing better. Depression has been managed and I have a much less stressful job for the next two months. But it will get harder in a couple of months. I think I’ll be ready for it by then.

I am just pretty sad that I can’t share an intimate connection with skmeone.  I give myself fully to her. I made myself totally vulnerable. And I feel pretty rejected. I guess understanding that she may have BPD helps me to make sense of things. But at the same time it’s daunting and makes me wonder what hope I have.

[Radcliff]

Glad to hear that the depression is better, and your job is less stressful for a while.  I would guess that both the depression and the job stress may fuel abandonment fears in her.  She needs you to be healthy and available for her to feel secure.  Does that sound on target?

I am just pretty sad that I can’t share an intimate connection with skmeone.  I give myself fully to her. I made myself totally vulnerable. And I feel pretty rejected. I guess understanding that she may have BPD helps me to make sense of things. But at the same time it’s daunting and makes me wonder what hope I have.

I totally hear you.  It's very sad, and can be daunting.  But you're learning a lot.  And you're reaching out for support.  I busted my tail in isolation for years and years.  The support from outsiders, particularly bpdfamily helps you stay grounded to reality and encourages you to balance pushing yourself to work the tools with taking care of yourself.  Hang in there!

Besides the lack of intimacy (don't let us forget about that, though), what's another major concern with your current situation that you'd like to address to make things better?

WW

[k54]

Things became much worse last fall when I became depressed about my new job. I didn't see a way out, and when I leaned on her for support she pushed away. I asked her several times to stay home Sundays because that was the worst night for my depression, and she would refuse. We would argue. I would call her selfish, and they would end up pretty bad.

In counseling we made deals. She promised to text me when she went out, to reassure me. But she didn't follow through. I would have to leave for work very early and I got in the habit of crawling into bed with her for a few minutes just before I left. She asked me not to wake her up. Again in counseling, she promised to text me in the morning, but she never did. Then when I brought up these failed promises in counseling she said she didnt remember making them. I was so confused it made me feel so insignificant. When she made the promises our counselor said she would hold her to them, but the counselor never did.

There was a book we had agreed to listen to together, "The New Rules of Marriage" which I thought was very helpful, but she dismissed as sexist. Eventually, on Valentines day, she told me she didn't want to work on things anymore. She wanted a separation. I became distraught. But I found some help from some books on dealing with separation and a wife going through a midlife crisis, and now I have found this group, and so I have been able to manage things better.

I would say that initially it was the depression, and my desperation that pushed her away. I have noticed in the past when I am unstable, she becomes very irrational. Its weird because it feels like things should be the opposite. She ought to be more supportive, so that has fueled my side of our arguments. But I understand that now, and no longer expect her to be there for me when I am in crisis. I lean on family and other friends. I guess the question now is, what am I getting out of this? Pretty much nothing. I am just hoping for her to come back to me.

My kids are really missing out too. Instead of family trips, and fun times with friends an neighbors, they really only get to do things with me. She is steadfast that they nit be "over scheduled." She doesn't want them to have to do too much, as though one or two scheduled activity for them: Soccer, Karate, Music lessons, is somehow too much. She however manages to make time for herself usually three nights a week. I have decided to take them to stuff by myself to pick up the slack, but it'd be more fun for them if she went too.