Marriage in crisis: I became depressed, she pulled away, I want more intimacy

[pearlsw]

My kids are really missing out too. Instead of family trips, and fun times with friends an neighbors, they really only get to do things with me. She is steadfast that they nit be "over scheduled." She doesn't want them to have to do too much, as though one or two scheduled activity for them: Soccer, Karate, Music lessons, is somehow too much. She however manages to make time for herself usually three nights a week. I have decided to take them to stuff by myself to pick up the slack, but it'd be more fun for them if she went too.

Hi k54,

This reminds me a bit of a certain part of my childhood. My mom lived with us, but she was pretty checked out. She started spending less and less time at home. Later I realized she was seeing someone who was not my dad, who was dying of cancer. Not good family times.

I guess what I want to zero in on here is this “midlife crisis” you mention, these nights out at raves, her trying to get back to another, well era, or age in life with less responsibility. Let me be direct: do you think she is involved with other men? How checked out is she? Would she include you in any of these activities? Is your living situation just housing for her at this point? Is she pretty checked out with the kids too? My mom was.

I am in a situation where things have broken down between my SO and I. If he could be more calm, not argue so much, well, at all, but instead communicate and problem-solve, plan more activities with me, I think I could find my way back to having enough feelings to continue with him. If he could go a really long time with no drama I might be able to love him and emotionally trust him. (I have no idea what is possible.)

Do you have any idea what is missing for her? At some point did she check out because she didn’t feel heard, that her wishes for things to be a certain way weren’t being fulfilled? What were her complaints exactly?

I want to circle back to WW’s advice and again say I see his point. I think we each bring a totally different set of perspectives here, and that’s good I think, but…I still think at some point you do need to get out what you have to say to her in a way that is also true to you. You bottling up and silencing yourself is not healthy I think.

I see his point on behavior vs. being verbal, but I also don’t want you to explode. I wonder if there is a way to combine both methods? Perhaps you follow his behavioral suggestions, but you also just get off your chest what you need to - verbally or in writing if safer.

It must feel horrible to live in a household where the light has completely gone off, on her side of things, and you still feel something and want to say something. I think it can make a difference, to SAY SOMETHING. Let’s see what WW has to say. He is very wise. 

Also, to circle back around…in your discussions with her were you doing enough validating, or was there a lot of blaming (perhaps not your intention but built in there) in your sentence structure?

She may become more unstable when you are not stable because she counts on you to be the stable one. Sounds like she still is all in all - in fact it sounds like nearly all has been left on your shoulders.

Would you say you always had differing views all in all about what roles you each have in the household and how you want to raise the kids? Or did that come later?

take care, pearl.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[k54]

I did do a lot of blaming. We both did. That was what our first counselor focused on. When one person doesn't take responsibility for much, I think it is kind of a trap. I know better now but at first yeah, I blamed her a lot.

Her complaints were that I was trying to control her, and she wasn't having any fun. She has also told me she wants to be free. She said she didn't want to work on it, because it has been too much work. Ironically, she has said that she was always "walking on eggshells" because she was afraid of doing the wrong thing. That I was emotionally abusive to her. She just wants to feel good about herself.

She has a single friend who is very self indulgent that she spends most of her time out with.

We haven't been too far apart on the kids. I think right now she is just taking it to the extreme. She still wants us to do things together as a family, she thinks I'm a good father and person. She just doesn't want to have a personal relationship with me. As I said before, we eat dinner together every night, that hasn't changed.

I have asked her twice, most recently a couple of weeks ago if she was seeing someone else, she said no both times. Last time she told me that she was a mess, how could she? Then she corrected herself and said she was fine, and asked me if I was seeing someone else. Which I thought was pretty weird.

A lot of this led me to believe that she may have BPD.

[k54]

Yesterday she brought up leaving again. She asked me if I would make an appointment with someone to mediate the terms of our separation. I made a vague reply and she suggested we need to have a conversation about it.

I don’t want to separate. In the book I read about seperation they suggest that I not make it easy for her. Don’t force her to stay, but also don’t facilitate it. It makes me sick to think of handing off the kids and being away from them half the time. Also it is hard for me to sleep as I wrote this.

[zachira]

It is so disheartening to know that your wife has given up on your marriage and wants to go straight to mediation. You might ask her to agree to go to see a marriage counselor first so you can resolve the hurt between you so things will be easier for both you and the children in the coming years. When some of the hurt between you is healed, who knows what will happen.
I hope you don't mind my sharing with you something that I recently learned about the differences between men and women, that may or may not be helpful. If it is not helpful, I am not offended. Women have a larger area of their brain devoted to emotional memories. Women tend to remember many things from the past and how they felt. Indeed a woman friend of mine and I talked about how we wish we could turn off the tape of how we vividly remember being hurt in the past. Men often see a problem as solved and move on, and oftentimes do not even remember the painful events that a female partner is talking about. This explains why men seem to get a laundry list of complaints from their female partner about hurtful events, sometimes way in the past, and that the male partner can sometimes not even remember many of the things happening that she is talking about. So possibly a way to repairing many of the hurts in your relationship is to try to heal many of these past hurts, which does not mean that her point of view has more value than yours.
I hope you don't mind if I suggest one more thing. If you do get your wife to agree to go to marriage counseling, you might seek a therapist trained in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) which is currently the most evidence based therapy that has the highest success rates in helping couples to heal their wounds and form an intimate caring relationship.
I keep thinking of your children and how much it means to them to have you in their lives. It is such a big challenge to keep your children feeling safe and happy, when the parents' relationship is not doing well. I admire how you are being the best father you can be under the most difficult of circumstances, and how you are doing everything you can to repair the hurts with your wife. Let us know how you are doing and how to best respond.  

[pearlsw]

Yesterday she brought up leaving again. She asked me if I would make an appointment with someone to mediate the terms of our separation. I made a vague reply and she suggested we need to have a conversation about it.

I don’t want to separate. In the book I read about seperation they suggest that I not make it easy for her. Don’t force her to stay, but also don’t facilitate it. It makes me sick to think of handing off the kids and being away from them half the time. Also it is hard for me to sleep as I wrote this.

I tried many strategies on this. My husband threatened divorce a lot. He filled out and threw divorce papers at me at least two times. He drove me to lawyers maybe 4-5 times over the last couple years. He constantly threatened this and put a lot of pressure on me. I don't know I managed with his constant barrage.

Now he says he does not want this at all. Ever. (He has been on anti-depressants for a few months and has changed a lot, perhaps... .?)

If these are threats, yes, I'd let her follow through on them. On the other hand, you don't want to be caught off guard so it is good to go and get yourself ready on this front as well, as time-consuming and emotionally painful as it is.

I think it is good idea that you have set up a conversation about it with her before next steps are taken. This is a good chance to be positive, upbeat, but firm. I am not saying I did the "right" thing, or even recommending this for you per se, but when I had your frame of mind I gave a lot of "rescue speeches" and would win him over, but it was always only temporary as his mind would melt down again and again. He was in a lot of emotional pain. I imagine your partner is as well, for whatever reasons. Is there any way to sell her on a fresh start, for you and the kids, based upon something, anything, shared between you on the vision you started out with? I would advise against any kind of begging or anything that degrades yourself, but rather offering a positive vision that you might have a chance to get buy in on. Avoid blame!

wishing you the best, pearl.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for giving us more detail about your situation.  It helps us to understand.  I'm really sorry for the incredible stress you're under, and the weight on your soul.  I have walked in your shoes.  It is hard for folks to understand unless they've been there, and it's tough to walk around all day surrounded by people who we think can't understand, while we try to pretend we're doing OK.

You're getting great advice here from pearlsw and zachira.  Regarding the note thing, I also think pearlsw is wise, and see her point about having everything bottled up inside.  You definitely need to do what you need to do to stay healthy.  Integrating what we've both said, perhaps just be clear on what your main objective is, and set yourself up for success.  For example, if you write a letter, and your main objective is to be authentic and have a voice, then you'll win by writing the letter, and any disappointment from her will be a drawback, but not take away from the fact that you successfully did something for yourself.

When my wife was threatening divorce, which she did at regular intervals, it felt awful.  One of the things I did to make myself feel less panicked was to think out how a divorce would go, and tell myself that it would be survivable and I could get to a better place with my kids.  I read books like Splitting, by Bill Eddy, about divorcing someone with BPD.  I thought about budgeting, finding an apartment, etc.  I was still very much oriented towards saving the relationship, but I needed to know that divorce wasn't like the unknown territory on the edges of ancient maps where the cartographers noted, "fire and dragons lay here."  Knowing I could survive made her threats less threatening, and I was able to stay calmer and work with her better.

I totally agree with the advice not to make separation easy on her.  Our pwBPD need to own their own stuff, and not have us jump to do for them things they should own.  If they emotionally want to do something like set up an appointment with a mediator, and we do it for them, then it has no cost to them, and they are literally free to swing wildly because we do all the work.  If they have think, ":)o I really want to do this," and follow through to set up an appointment, it acts as a settling influence.  Just calmly say, "That's not where my heart is, I believe in us and want to rebuild our love, but it might not hurt to talk to someone and learn a bit more, go ahead and set up an appointment if you want to."

WW

[k54]

I had an appointment with my counselor last night, and he agrees its a good idea for me to stay my current course. I think the letter has been helpful for me to clarify where I stand, but the risk of it freaking her out outweighs potential gains. She is more or less in a position where it would be hard for her to blame me if she decides to leave. I have been a stable, consistent rock for some time now. She knows that and appreciates it. At this point there is no time lime really. My priority is my children, and the more I can do to keep us together at this point, I believe the better it is for them.

Having this place to share my feelings, and hear your feedback has been invaluable though. The last few days her friend has been out of town, and she has been home more. It has almost felt normal. I can tell she wants to spend more time with our kids too. She also has three appointments scheduled with her counselor the next few weeks.

I am trying to control my expectations, but things have been pretty good for most of the week. I don't want to get too comfortable though, because this is when she usually will try to push me away and provoke me.

Anyway, thanks for the tips. It is indeed hard to be out in the world pretending I am ok. I have a lot of responsibility in my elected position, and people like to ask how my family is. It is hard for me to lie.

[k54]

She brought up mediation today, saying she has to move forward. She gave me a slew of complaints. I don't understand, I don't listen to her, I always blame her. She never could want to have sex with me again. I am devastated right now. My sister is coming over to my house. Kids are out.

[Radcliff]

She brought up mediation today, saying she has to move forward. She gave me a slew of complaints. I don't understand, I don't listen to her, I always blame her. She never could want to have sex with me again. I am devastated right now. My sister is coming over to my house. Kids are out.

I'm sorry for the tough turn of events, but am glad that you have the support of your sister.  How did her visit go, and how have things been for the last day?

WW

[k54]

My sister and brother in law came over and I cried to them for a while. They are both attorneys. My sister is always in the mode of protecting me. She is critical of my wife and has had enough. But she is learning to be more supportive of my desire to stay.

I talked to my neighbors next door too. They are also very helpful, and have been supportive with my children especially. And then a divorced friend came by and was good to talk to. He was in counseling for a year with his wife before  relatively amicable split. Maybe I should agree to mediation after going to counseling for a while.

My wife came home at about 11:30 that same night and was throwing up in the bathroom for about a half an hour because she was drunk. The next day I went out in the morning and she texted me that she accidentally got drunk and would need help picking up the car. I went and got it with my bike and ran some errands. She was home all day with a hangover.

I sent her the letter. She hasn't said anything about it.

I think I'm starting to realize the way she controls me is by denying me, or threatening to deny me the things which I want: sex and my children. After all isn't that the power of threatening separation, that I will be without my children.

She was pretty nice to me while she was hungover, but today she is back to being kind of mean and impatient. I gave her a hug and told her I love her this morning, and she seemed uncomfortable.

We are taking the kids to the beach this afternoon.

[Radcliff]

I think I'm starting to realize the way she controls me is by denying me, or threatening to deny me the things which I want: sex and my children. After all isn't that the power of threatening separation, that I will be without my children.

Absolutely.  Even if you are still committed to saving the relationship, you can see how this power play puts you at a disadvantage in your ability to advocate for your family.  For example, if she has you convinced (or you have yourself convinced) that you'd get the Disney Dad plan (alternate weekends), you may be hesitant to take any risks or enforce any boundaries in the relationship for fear of losing your children.  You need an accurate idea of what kind of parenting plan might be realistic if you split.  Consulting an attorney and having an accurate idea of what you could actually get (hopefully a large proportion of parenting time) could actually empower you to be more assertive within the relationship while you're still in Bettering mode.  Not consulting an attorney leaves you exposed on the most important issue in your life -- parenting your kids.

What do you think about consulting a family law attorney?

WW

[k54]

So things have been pretty turbulent emotionally, but nothing has really happened. There are lots of threats, strange confrontations. I have learned a lot from the books: "Eggshells... .Loving Someone... and Stop Care Taking... ." I am afraid to advocate for myself for sure, but the more time passes, the more I realize that this is no way to live.

I don't want to get into too many details. From reading the board and the books, I realize how typical so much of this behavior is.

The one area I have been pretty steadfast with is the kids. I keep their well being in the forefront of my mind, and that helps to guide me. A couple of days ago my wife said that she feels like It's not fair that I get to spend so much time with the kids and she doesn't. She wants me to leave when she is at home some times so she can have them alone. Because she wants to go out some times, i should too. I understand that she is projecting her guilt onto me now, and that is helpful, but it still hurts, and it still creates conflict. But I go out plenty, she used to complain I was gone too much in fact. I don't twist myself around so much internalizing what she says thanks to what I have learned. I stand fast and maintain my desire to be here for my kids. But her power over me is strong. I really don't want to lose them.

I know lots of lawyers and talked to one today and that was reassuring.

I think we may go back to counseling, but after reading on here the experience of folks, it makes me nervous.

She has been going to counseling, sometimes I wonder what she is focusing on. It seems like she is trying to deal with her anger at the kids, which is good. Her counselor is in the same office as my counselor. My counselor thinks its likely she has BPD. I wonder, do they talk? I wonder, can I tell her counselor my suspicions? Can I tell her? Will it matter? It feels like it might. She has acknowledged that she has anxiety.

Under what circumstances should I tell her?

[Radcliff]

It sounds like you are doing a great job of getting oriented and understanding the dynamics.  Knowledge is power.  The issue of the kids is a tough one; you won't figure it out overnight -- but the fact that you are actively working on it is huge.

Technically, your counselors would have to have releases signed by each of you in order for them to talk about you to each other.  This could be a very good idea.  You'd have to sign a release for your counselor, and your wife would have to sign a release for hers.  You could ask your wife, it would be a reasonable thing to ask in the interest of helping the marriage.  But you might have better luck by you signing one for your counselor first, then having them talk to your wife's counselor, and have your wife's counselor suggest that it's a good idea.

Your wife's counselor can't tell you anything about your wife without authorization from her, but you can tell your wife's counselor anything you want.  Of course, the counselor would have to be wiling to meet you and would almost certainly tell your wife.  A better way to go might be to suggest to your wife that you "swap" counselors for a session -- that you go to hers and she goes to yours.  She may jump at the chance to tell your counselor everything that's wrong with you    A swap like that could lead to some good insights for the counselors.

I would not discuss BPD with your wife.  That almost certainly wouldn't go well.

WW