Is this narcissism?

[Pina colada]

Upon reflecting on my sister and her behavior that brought me here, a lightbulb has just gone off.  As I have written before, my BPD sister writes on a conduct disorders chat forum.  She has been on that board a long time, over ten years.  She told me about board and what her screen name is. She would make fun of desperate parents posting sad stories of children with issues.  She encouraged me to read there which I did.  Well I got big surprise when I saw she posted about our mom, dad, brother, her kids... .and myself of course.  She actually wrote horrible things about her children... .Well after our mom died I became her scapegoat and bully.  She abused me horribly as a child, she is much older... .While I am in a very good place and have not read her cr*p for many months, something came to me.  I continue to read about personality disorders and in reading about narcissism it hit me, my sister monopolized that chat forum when I used to read.  She started thread after thread after thread.  A lot was lies about our FOO and more recently half truths and lies about me.  But she has had a legion of followers on that chat forum.  Folks would agree with her, say how horrible myself, mom, dad, brother, uncle, her kids, whomever she picked on that day... .She seemed to make stuff up for drama or boredom and folks seemed to worship her and her lies which they have no idea what my sister is.  I also noticed as time went on, the folks that followed and worshipped her went away from posting and a new group of followers started worshipping her toxic BS and then they would leave etc.  Is this a form a narcissism posting drama and lies on chat forums to a legion of adoring fans?  Again, I can not prove she is still posting her nonsense there as I don't go there anymore as it  a waste of time.  Just wondering if perhaps she has many more NPD traits than I first thought... .I am no doctor but her behavior suggests alot of NPD... .TY

[Learning2Thrive]

Hi there. Of course it’s hard to know her motives and we obviously can’t diagnose. People do all kinds of outrageous things via internet and social media. Could be narcissistic traits... .could be any number of things.

Has something happened recently that triggered you into ruminating over her past behaviors?

[AoiKoutei]

Hi Pina Colada !

BPD and NPD can look a lot alike. For instance, when I was trying to figure out what my mother could suffer from, I first thought it was NPD. In reality, after a lot of research, I discovered it was BPD.
But thinking in a first place about NPD was not illogical. In my case, my mother can send my family more than 100 messages a day to tell us her whole life story, criticizing everyone she meets etc. She thinks she is the center of the universe and we had to reply to every single message, or she would get furious.

In your case, even if her behaviour looks very narcissistic, it can still be part of BPD. Since she has an extremly low self-esteem, she needs to get validation. She is always looking for sympathy. And this feeling quickly becomes an addiction. In the very begining, she may have written true things. But she discovered that she didn't have to write true things to be validated. She could keep a false story and receive even more attention. So the more she writes horrible things about everyone - even false things - the more she gets this feeling of being important. It's a vicious circle.

The major difference between NPD and BPD is the motivation behind the behaviour. With NPD, it is the certitude that your needs are more important than those of others. With BPD, it is the certitude that nobody loves you, that you will be abandonned. So you need permanent validation to compensate this lack of self-esteem.

Do you recognize your sister in one of these two motivations ?

[Highlander]

Hi Pina Colada,

My experiences are that people can have multiple personality disorders ie: both BPD and NPD.  I'm here because:

H = BPD (officially diagnosed in 2011but now in recovery)
MIL = BPD & NPD
FIL = NPD.  

Neither MIL, nor FIL have been officially diagnosed but after years of therapy,  H's T's have no doubt  and for me, it was rather fascinating watching all 3 members of this family I married into behave.

Basically, outside of H's BPD rages, my H was not a liar, nor a manipulator and he was actually always remorseful and at times and when he escaped his own head, he could even be sincerely empathetic.  Apologies for talking in past tense - I am still with my loving beautiful H, I'm just not living with his BPD anymore.

I believe that this was why my H's T's believed he could recover, (because he didn't have NPD too) and H welcomed the diagnosis.  :)uring diagnosis, I was interviewed separately from him and now, looking back, I believe the assessors were trying to distinguish if he had NPD too.  But our stories matched and as a result, they concluded he only had BPD and we were told he had a great chance of recovery.

My MIL has enough BPD traits for a full BPD diagnosis but also, like my FIL, neither of them are ever wrong, never apologise, are compulsive liars and manipulate people around them to believe in their lies.  If they ever get caught out, they lie on top of their lies.  

For his mother, I'm convinced she is aware she's doing it and she thinks everyone in life does it too!.  

For Instance, one evening, I witnessed MIL  tell my H, that she loved his dead sister more than him and not once but twice!  Over the coming days, my H became troubled by it and when my MIL asked me what was wrong with him, I told her the truth.  Her response:

“I never said that.  You must have implanted it into his brain”.

My response?  Well I was speechless!

She later apologised to her son, using the excuse that she was drunk but do you think she was ever going to apologise to me for such a strange accusation... .NEVER!  But it just goes to show that's how her brain works.

Once she disowned her son for 1½ years for no reason other than what BPD mothers do.  Years later, it was raised with her and she told her son “You have apologised for that”.  Even though, this never happened!  Was this a conscious attempt to 'implant into his mind' an event that never occurred?  I would say so and I have so many other examples.

I guess what I am saying is that in my experience, my beautiful H was officially diagnosed with BPD, had all nine traits at one stage (old classification system) but making up lies and manipulating people around him to believe these lies was never one of his behaviours.  

My H became troubled over his T's telling him his mother has BPD too.   "How can they place her in the same box me" he said!  It wasn't until he began to understand that she also has NPD that he became at peace with it.  

The following website describes studies of pw BPD/NPD.  When referring to “How often do BPD and NPD co-occur” title, in my experience and after reading so many stories on this website, I am inclined to believe that the study that assessed the general population which concluded that 39% of BPD sufferers also have NPD.  Because of my MIL's NPD traits, unlike my BPD H, my MIL will never admit she has a problem, thus she will never present herself for treatment, nor be a part of a BPD treatment study which concluded that 16% of all treatment patients also have NPD.

https://www.verywellmind.com/narcissistic-personality-disorder-425426

And there are plenty of other websites out there that discuss the co-occurrence of BPD and NPD.  

[Pina colada]

Highlander thank you for your insight and your story.  I definitely will go onto the website in your post and let you know what I can discover.  Aoikoutei thank you for replying.  I believe, although my sister has since denied , but after being hospitalized in the psyche until at age 23 (I believe, no one in our family was aloud to tell me at that time) she has been in hospitals and treatment having told me she was finally diagnosed with BPD somewhere around 2012.  She has not been kind to most in our immediate family and I have written about much but am focusing on more positive things now as my life is good.  I do think your clarification of BPD fits her better but having been NC (she cut me out when in December, I was at a grocery store and she asked me why I went NC with her which I did, again a long story I would share in a private message and why I was unable to go NC with a boyfriend whom was treating me well.  I tried to explain that I was shopping and it was different etc. but next thing I knew she texted me many texts and cut me off). I still have the texts.  I do think she exhibits MOD traits too but actually your explanation is very insightful! Learning2Thrive I am doing very well in all aspects of my life but once in a while my mind has me thinking of better times with my sister and I must remind myself of the awful things she has done to me and my family and the horrible half truths and lies mixed in with some truth she used to write on that forum.  I am guessing she is still there a lot but I stay away from that stuff as I realized her cut off was a blessing in disguise.  I believe god intervened and wants me going down a healthier path which I am and my sister has just been evil.  I will write more after I read the website!

[Learning2Thrive]

life but once in a while my mind has me thinking of better times with my sister and I must remind myself of the awful things she has done to me and my family and the horrible half truths and lies mixed in with some truth she used to write on that forum.  I am guessing she is still there a lot but I stay away from that stuff as I realized her cut off was a blessing in disguise.  I believe god intervened and wants me going down a healthier path which I am and my sister has just been evil.  I will write more after I read the website!

I understand, witness your pain and desire for a healthier future. Take good care of yourself Pina Colada.

[Pilpel]

Pina Colada, that's interesting about your sister.  What do you think about the fact that she encouraged you to read the online board, knowing that you would read these things that she was writing about you and your family?  Do you think she believes the things she's writing? 

What she's doing online reminds me of catfishing.  She's creating an online persona and wring things that are lies to get attention --there just isn't a romantic aspect to it like catfishing. And even though people lose interest and end up leaving the board, it sounds like she's skilled at getting what she wants from it. But just like with catfishing, you have to wonder about the people who "get caught" and waste their time on other people's drama. 

Whether or not your sister is NPD --- I tend to think that anyone who is immature and dysfunctional has some narcissistic traits. But they may not be fully NPD. I think there is a lot of crossover between disorders.  When I was in high school I knew a girl who was a compulsive liar.  She lied about having exciting life-threatening experiences as a high school police cadet.  And then she lied about having cancer.  I believe my SIL is NPD.  And there have been times when I've recognized that how I feel around the NPD is very similar to how I felt around the compulsive liar.  Only the type of lie is different.  My SIL is very religious, and she doesn't just make up wild lies like a compulsive liar.  Instead she has an idea of how reality is or how reality should be.  And in that reality, what she wants and needs is at the center.  And if you don't conform to that reality, you're walking on eggshells. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Pina Colada,

Have you ever read the book Understanding the Borderline Mother? I know this is your sister we are talking about, but I was able to glean a lot of insight into the particular traits of a BPD through the detailed descriptions listed in the pages when I read it. Also as others have mentioned, NPD is often a part of BPD.

I sense that you are trying to understand and make sense of this craziness you see in your sibling. I'm sorry it has been so tough and so wounding for you.

 
Wools

[Pina colada]

Highlander I read the article and found the description of how an overlap of NPD and BPD causes certain horrible behaviors pretty accurate in my situation.  I know my sister loves her kids so she has empathy but for me, my parents, family she truly is almost sociopathic in her lack of concern of how her behavior affects others.  I admit I am not perfect and have made mistakes with her to which I apologized.  I have also defensively tried to get back at her to no avail as I am not in that league of evil.  I know she has taken jabs at my kids too in the past but as I stated I do not read her cr*p any more and won't.  Pilpel my sister once told me, this is almost verbatim"My reality is what I believe"... .which I do understand but when she writes that our parents threw her out of our house when she was 18 well it just did not happen.  She lived at our family home, teasing me until October 23, 1973 when she married at 19!  Oh happy day for me!  Yes I think she can not face her part in the abuse so she makes things up and tried to convince herself that she is a victim.  Our therapists are only as good as what we tell them, right?  I am in psychotherapy and learning so much.  I understand and accept my role in the dysfunction with sis, but, it started with her teasing me, her younger sister horribly my entire childhood so I was not able to attach to her in a healthy way.  I just found this out so when she asked me why I was able to cut her off after a horrible incident in 1990 where she totally abused my trust it is because I never attached to her the way sisters do.  I tried to be close to my brother as a kid but he went along with sis and was very sick.  In my teens my sister befriended me and encouraged me to hate my brother.  She said horrible things about him and constantly said things about how he looked (he was so sick) and I am ashamed to say I went along with my sister as I just wanted her approval.  The full story is longer but it culminated in my not inviting him my wedding (with my sister encouraging me to do this) but I made the decision myself to which I am ashamed.  Fast forward to now my brother and I are great friends!  He just visited and saw my kids and friends and will definitely be at my next wedding... .Woolspinner I am going to get that book as I am always trying to understand the messed up dynamics going on but actually I feel very enlightened and doing very well without sis!

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi PinaColada, 

Another little tidbit I gleaned came from the book I Hate You Don't Leave Me.
There is a great chart in the book that shows the other diagnosis that run alongside the 'borders' or edges of a Borderline. I think that can also be a great resource for you.

How are you doing today? Any more settled?

 
Wools

[Pina colada]

Woolspinner2000 my curiosity is high now.  I must put that book on my list and see what it is you are referring too.  Thanks!  I am doing quite well now.  I work in a school so off for another 6 weeks.  I am busy doing nothing .  I wake up, go to yoga or run, I go to the pools, nights are with my awesome kids, brother, aunts, family!  I also have an awesome guy in my life and see him a lot so I really feel I am doing well.  Therapy helps.  There are times I feel bad about my role in my mess with my sister but I am slowly learning to let go.  I can only control myself.  One day soon I will stop writing about her as I feel a bit bad trashing her.  I will say what I have shared can not even come close to all she has written about me and family but I am a bigger person than her.  The lack of attachment was a big insight and makes sense!  How are you doing Woolspinner2000?