Clarity too Late: I'm a Fool, but is a Future possible for us?

[munkeynoodle]

I met my girlfriend at work. She was bright, intelligent, sweet, eager, talented, and nothing got her down. I was a professional and thought little more than how wonderful she was as an employee. When I resigned, she friended me on Facebook, then I started a Snapchat knowing she would talk to me. And we talked about everything. Then we started hanging out.

We were in a hanging out phase for about four months before she abruptly left, and then I found out she was with another guy the entire time that we were. She said she couldn't believe someone like me could really love her, that she thought I wanted her to leave. She didn't think I would care what she was doing with that other guy. I told her she must have known I would care, or she would not have kept it a secret.

The guy she was seeing shared the same dysfunctions as her and was the opposite of me at the same time. I knew that was the attraction: someone who could relate better and did not make her feel as comparatively small. I told her it was partially my fault for not telling her what I wanted, but what she did was not acceptable. I gave her the choice of us working it out or me walking away, pointing out that her relationship with him would not go well due to their mutual dysfunctions.

She chose me, and I made her promise never to cut herself while we were together, or we could not be together, and to be honest and forthcoming with me so we can avoid ever being in that situation again.

I told her I would never tell her who she can and cannot talk to, even her ex, who she left two weeks before we began our relationship physically. I encouraged her to see friends and family because our relationship could not define her, she has to do that. She was still talking to a man who she had an abusive and sexual online relationship with since she was a minor. I told her how that made me feel and asked how she would feel if her sister was doing what she did. That got through to her, and she stopped.

She was so happy throughout our relationship. There were bouts of anxiety that were intense, causing her to rage against herself, crying, screaming that she was worthless as she hit her own head. Sometimes simply finding the right outfit would spark the rage, or not being able to get her eyeliner just right. I stood by her, not understanding, but being patient. I held her and told her she is not allowed to hit herself, because she can't hurt someone I love, even thought she resented it.

Still, when the bouts were over, she was happy. She would squeeze me tightly as possible some nights, crying into my chest exclaiming that I cannot possible love her as much as she loves me. Then she would accuse me of not loving her at all if I was to do my schoolwork.

These bad moments were just moments in two years of a happy relationship filled with love. We got a dog, a symbol of our love and commitment, who I imagined our children would at least vaguely recall. We had an apartment which we loved, with two cats we adored. We had a life together. We had love. We had a family. We had happiness.

I noticed that she was becoming more distant, but she does that sometimes. I felt that there was something wrong, but she stopped talking to me about such things. It was hard to get her to open up to me. The closer we became, the less she said.

One day she asked me if I was happy. I said of course I am. She said that she was not. I asked her if she was unhappy with us, or just unhappy. I knew that there was a difference, and I never knew how to ask her to seek help for what I thought was depression and anxiety disorder. I wanted to show her that a relationship can be wonderful and she can still feel empty and sad. That those emotions aren't a reflection of us, but something we can work on with her. Then she said she did not know how to talk to me about it. I asked her to write it down, or type it, as we have in the past because she had difficulty communicating face-to-face. But she didn't bring it up again, and I did not want to pressure her and push her farther away.

Then we went to NYC, one of the most magical times of my life. I could not believe I was living a childhood dream with a wonderful woman that I love. I was sure the train we took was going to derail and kill only me, because this could not be true. The next week we went to Oregon for my sister's wedding. She met my whole family, who loved her. She is in the wedding pictures. It was a wonderful time.

A week later she kisses me goodbye on a Friday morning, then texts me that she is meeting a friend and will be staying at her mothers because she has to open the restaurant the next couple of mornings and her mother is much closer. I said alright.

Sunday night she came home and told me her "friend" and her had a hotel room for the weekend. She said she had been talking to him online for four months and she thought it was important to meet him. She said she had considered him to be her best friend for months, and the first time she told him she loved him was after we got home from NYC. She said it was real.

The next day I told her I was moving out. I had everything packed, but it was a holiday and I did not have a way to store everything I owned while I stayed in an airbnb. She said she would rather move and be closer to work. As she was packing her things she didn't say a thing. I was weeping. Then we talked, I asked her more about her actions which she could not explain, and her thoughts which she could not explain. She can only speak in terms of emotion. I asked what her plans were with her new relationship. She said she was not in a relationship. She does this: she warps the definition of things to suite her feelings. She cannot rectify facts against this. I told her how naive she was and how her actions are detrimental to herself and us.

Then she ran into the closet with some blades.

I saw the signs, and I gave chase and wrestled the blades from her. I held her down on the bed and called the police as she screamed for me to let her go, as she screamed that I did not love her.

She called and called, left texts and voicemails expressing her regret and explaining herself, how she thought I did  not love her, how tiny things made her think I hated her, how she thought I only wanted a relationship, not really a relationship with her. All things that facts contradict, but she cannot see past her emotions.

We sat down the next day and she begged me again to let her come home. She said I was the only one that she loved, if she could go back in time she would change what she did, that she will never talk to him again.

I said no.

She needs to learn to be alone, to get counseling, and to learn to love herself. Until she learns to love herself and find out who she is then we cannot be in a healthy relationship.

That Saturday we had one last date night. It was wonderful. The next morning I flew off on a business trip and I got sick in the hotel room. As soon as I walked in the thought of her with him and the betrayal made me vomit and sent me into a raging panic attack.

I had the urge to check her tumblr blog. I always hated that thing, because she uses it to validate her own pain with reblogs of wanting death and empty feelings, but it was hers and I left it for her.

It was like she was living a second life. I did not know all the things that she was feeling. I did not know she was so blatantly speaking to this guy. There was a post from that morning of her saying how regretful she was that she took me for granted, and how the only thing she could think about was getting her family back.

The next post was "someone needs to take my phone from me"

She wasn't texting or calling me.

The next day she posted a picture of her and her internet guy from the weekend they had which ripped her family apart and prompted her to attempt suicide. "I can't believe I haven't posted these yet, but I finally got to meet my best friend. Thanks for driving 400 miles to spend the weekend with me. I'll never forget the memories we made."

I was sick again. I went into a screaming fit of agony. How can she regret something and be so happy about it?

I saw her when I got home that Friday. I confronted her about the picture and she was speechless, but started crying. I asked if she was really regretful about what she did, or just regretful about how I feel about it. Again, just tears.

I told her that she cannot have both of us in her life. I told her I was blocking her on everything. And she left.

I could not hold out. We had too much. I asked her to meet me and talk. I still could not get any answers. I asked her why she chose him. She said she didn't choose him, she just wants to be alone and focus on herself. I asked her about her relationship with him, but she said she was not in a relationship. I asked her to give us a chance. We could both go to counseling, and we could go to couples counselling as well. It could work, and it's worth it.

She said she couldn't decide.

Decide between what? I thought she was not in a relationship. I though she was not choosing him.

She said she just needs to be alone and work on herself. There's no chance for us yet.

The next say she drove out to Ohio -we live in NY- to meet her internet guy -from Mchigan- with whom she is not in a relationship. They posted pictures of them driving, and holding each other in the cheap hotel room. #love #best friend #I got sick and threw up again.

I am convinced this is her sickness. She is not well. She is confused.

I ask her again, I beg her to give us a chance. We can work through this pain. We have too much to lose. And what does she have to gain with this guy? She said she is not choosing him. She is not in a relationship with him. I confront her about my knowledge of their most recent excursion. She still denies that they are in a relationship.

She said okay. At 1:30 pm she said okay, she will give us a shot. We were going to meet at our apartment, at our home at 4:00 pm. She didn't show up. She left a note in my car later that night. How cowardly?

I knew what the note said without reading it.

I frantically called and called and called, and she finally answered. She said I need to stop and just let her go. But I needed explanations. She agreed to see me again. But I still didn't get any explanations. She still denied they were in a relationship. She denied that he had anything to do with her abrupt change in mind. Her change in heart.

I told her block me on everything so I could not attempt to contact her. I asked if she was really prepared to never see me again. I forget what she said. But she didn't need to say it. And I ran away.

And the next day I was blocked. And that weekend she saw him again.

Now they are a couple.


I am now reading everything I can about borderline personality disorder, in addition to dependent personality disorder. Finding out this information has been illuminating. It's like everything is written about her personally. I see what went wrong and where, and when. I cannot believe I did not examine her issues more.

I am absolutely broken. I am on several depression and anxiety medications, but I still can't sleep. I can't eat. I can't focus. Every moment of every day seems like agony, and I do not know how I am going to get through it, and I am terrified of the next moment.

I am not me.

I have always been sturdy, and stoic, through every one of life's hardships.

I feel guilty that even my uncles death -who was like a brother to me- did not feel this agonizing.

I have never depended on or needed anyone. I have been independent my entire life.

Why does this hurt so bad?

Why am I so concerned about this persons well being?

I am terrified that she may never see how destructive she has been. That she will continue her cycles of pain indefinitely.

I am terrified that she may never remember our love again.

I am terrified that everything we had is being burned by a new flame.

I am terrified that I will never see her again.

I am terrified.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

Hi munkeynoodle

welcome to the family

Thanks for joining with us and sharing your story.    I know exactly what a good decision that was because I did it too, once,  a while back.    I remember how torn up and utterly confused I was.   This website has been part of my healing, my learning and me getting better.

I am absolutely broken. I am on several depression and anxiety medications, but I still can't sleep. I can't eat. I can't focus. Every moment of every day seems like agony, and I do not know how I am going to get through it, and I am terrified of the next moment.


Why does this hurt so bad?

I can relate, at one point in the saga of my BPD relationship, I lost 15 pounds, and had to be medicated before I could fall asleep.   For me that was the toughest phase.

In my experience it hurts so bad for a couple of reasons;   First because we have been living in close proximity to a serious mental illness without the tools and skills to protect ourselves or understand what was happening.      I know I lived with incredible levels of stress and covert abuse for years and it took it's toll.  it was like I was programmed to expect impending doom.

Second, I believe we develop some level of trauma bonding or stockholm syndrome,  where we become overly conditioned to the idea that some one else can make us feel good, loved, safe or happy.   we become so conditioned to matching our moods to our more dramatic partner that when they leave we feel bereft.

Third,  we poured 110% of our energy, attention, love and care into the relationship.   I did.   I put more effort into my BPD relationship than any I have ever had.   When my relationship failed I felt empty.

and fourth,   because these relationships are the very best of times and the very worst of times all at the same time.    That weird  It's Great / It's Horrible back and forth minutes aparts wrecks havoc with our mental strength.    Nothing is actually as it seems.

Can I ask how you found out about BPD?    and what made you look into dependent personality disorder?

How long has it been since the relationship ended?

I want to suggest you keep writing and posting here.    While getting some of this out can be gut wenching,  it helps.   the very act of organizing our thoughts enough to put them down helps process them... .helps us.

'ducks

[munkeynoodle]

Thank you kindly for your response. Reading all of these posts makes me feel normal.

My girlfriend wasn't really manipulative, but she was secretive and dishonest. And her rage was always internalized. Everything, she thinks, is her fault and a result of her perceived worthlessness. No one would care if I were gone, she would say, except for a moment, but they would move on quickly.

It was stressful, because I was aware of her triggers and it was difficult to address some issues, primarily her lack of responsibility and motivation, causing me to take care of the house while also working 50-60 hours a week and going to school part time. I knew that there was something wrong, but I had not learned of BPD and DPD until after she split me out of her life, and now I feel foolish for not having endeavored to understand her better until now.

I did pour a lot of energy into our relationship, but I always worked on myself -my career and school are very important to me- and I encouraged her to work on herself and try to remain close to her friends and family. Unfortunately, I know now, she felt this was abandonment and that I hated her, so she sought someone who wants to posses her, it seems.

I forget why I looked up BPD. I heard it after everything happend, and I typed it into google and was amazed at what I saw. I saw her in a checklist. Then I saw Dependent Personality Disorder in a list of the disorders and it was her all over again. Then I read an article about how the two disorders can often occur simultaneously in an individual. I feel enlightened, but still shattered and hopeless: I can do nothing to help her, or us, with this information now.

Our relationship ended officially on June 27th, when she told me what she did. She was amazed that I cared, and that there were consequences. She still cannot draw the lines between her actions and what has happened -she does not see that her relationship with this guy on the internet and spending a weekend with him in a hotel has ruined the life that she knew, shattered her family and prompted her to attempt suicide- so she went right back to him in a relationship I think is fueled by mutual dysfunction -another thing I have read about.

I am terrified that she is lost forever. I have been speaking to her mother about getting her into counselling, though I know it is worthless unless she is aware that she has solvable issues, and I don't think that she does.

I am terrified that I am being buried away forever.

Is it hopeless? Are there any stories of recovery?

I am not ready to let go of her yet, though I know that I should.

There is a substantial disconnect between my thoughts and emotions, where I have always been strong and stoic, I am now spinning out of control. I don't know who I am right now. This is not me.

How do I get over the obsession with her and this new guy? I cannot stop checking her blog. I cannot stop it. I keep thinking there will be a clue that will lead me to understanding what happened, or let me know how she is, or if she misses me, or if she still loves me, but it is only pictures and posts of her and her new boyfriend -although she complains of still being in pain.

I know I am a fool for even asking. But is a future for us possible?

[babyducks]

Hi munkeynoodle,

June 27th is not that long ago.   I am sorry for what you are going through.   I know it's hard.

Are there any stories of recovery?

That's a question that gets discussed a lot around here.     I guess it matter's how you define recovery.     For a lot of people 'recovery' means returning to the idealization or honeymoon phase.    For some people 'recovery' means stabilizing the relationship, as much as possible and minimizing conflict.    There is no simple answer unfortunately.    BPD exists on a spectrum,   some people would not be diagnosable but have traits of the disorder.    Some people would be considered lower functioning and diagnosable.     It's a very complex and complicated.     If you had to describe recovery for you and girlfriend what would it look like?     

There are many reasons to continue in a relationship with some one with this disorder.    But it is important to be honest about what it takes to continue.     To get a full and unflinching understanding.   You can do that here.

One of my favorite quotes from this website is this one:

It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.  If you chose this path, you've got to be very strong and very balanced.

It's important to have support for yourself,  people with whom you can speak freely and who understand the realities that you are dealing with.    A therapist is a great idea.

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

Realistic expectations.  Being in a relationship with a person with a mental illness comes with unique and difficult challenges.    You can learn more about it here:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

I think you are right,   it's not a good idea to obsessively check her blog.   I think we have all done some form of it,   facebook pages,  instagram accounts... .whatever.    There is something addictive about trying to puzzle out hidden messages in social media.    It doesn't help with being balanced,   it does fuel the fire of speculation and drama.    When you want to check the blog, substitute something else.     Come here and post.    Go for a run.   Or a walk.    Clean something.   Find a way to turn your thinking from her, back to you.    Ever hear of ruminations?   Yeah me neither until I came here and found out I was doing it.   

Rumination is the compulsively focused attention on the symptoms of one's distress, and on its possible causes and consequences, as opposed to its solutions. Rumination is similar to worry except rumination focuses on bad feelings and experiences from the past, whereas worry is concerned with potential bad events in the future.

if you google how to stop ruminating you'll get a bunch of different suggestions.    I exercise because that helps break the cycle for me.   and every time I can break the cycle it gets easier for the next time.    make sense?

has you girlfriend ever sought professional help?   you said you were speaking to her mother but you didn't think she had awareness.   has her mother been receptive to the conversation?    I am going to suggest you carefully think through how much you disclose to her mother.    Family members can be helpful in these situations but they can also be very reactive.    Very sensitive to implied criticisms.     

what are you doing to keep yourself busy?

'ducks

[livednlearned]

munkeynoodle,

What you're going through sounds like an abandonment cycle, friend.

Abandonment depression has been compared to heroin withdrawal, it hits the same part circuits as physical pain and intense craving.

10 days in, no wonder you are in so much agony. It's still fresh.

Does she communicate with you still?

Checking her blog is going to make it harder to get the emotional strength you need if she comes back. Do you think that's a first step you can take?

Probably a good idea to take a break from talking to her mom, too, for now.

Just until this wave of abandonment rolls through, the worst part of it at least.

She needs to remember who she fell in love with, you have to become that guy again.

If you reflect back the pain and agony she caused you, she will not stick around to learn more about the ways she hurt you. She doesn't have a strong enough self to abide that kind of painful truth. 

We're here to walk with you. This is really hard, working through the emotional pain.

[munkeynoodle]

Correction: I meant May 27th.

Recovery for me would be her recognizing her actions and how they affected her family -me, our dog, us- and mostly how destructive they have been to herself. Right now she seems to lack empathy for me, and herself, and she is burying her pain -which she doesn't understand is likely the result of her behaviors- in her new relationship. Recovery would be her recognizing and reconciling with this and with us. She seems blinded by her emotional lens, and she was saying things that I know are not her own words: she is absorbing the thoughts and opinions of her new boyfriend, because she has trouble defining those things herself, because she does not know herself.

I did have a therapist, but he was not right for me, and I am searching for another. I am in close contact with my primary care physician who has me on a couple of prescriptions to help me manage my massive depression and anxiety. It has helped with the fits of agony I would fall into regularly, though they still occur with some frequency.

Her mother and I have been speaking regularly. She has been through a divorce, so she empathizes with me and is helping me in whatever ways she can. She has been very receptive to the information I have given her. Her daughter had a counselling session after she tried to kill herself, but she said she did not want to return, because it is too expensive and she does not want to share so much with a stranger. I know it was not the best thing to do, but I gave her mother enough money for five more sessions and told her not to say where it came from. She has been speaking with her daughter more and has her going back to counselling.

I am trying to keep my mind off of her, but I am failing. Everything makes me think of her -she was woven into the fabric of my life- and the things I do which are different -like finding a new running route, or a new park to take the dog- just remind me that I have to do it to forget about her, which makes me think about her. I have been reading everything I can about this disorder, what it is, how it is, how to manage a relationship with someone who has the condition. It keeps my mind busy, and I feel purposeful and focused, and the pain and anxiety is relieved for a time, but I also know that it is bad, because it is still a focus on her, and it seems so unlikely that she will ever return. She is so enamored and absorbed in her new relationship, and every day I drift farther away from her mind, and her heart.

I told her to block me on all social media and on her cell phone. I have not spoken to her in a couple of weeks. It is so hard to deal with not speaking to someone who I spoke to every day for the past two-and-a-half years. How is it so easy for her? I want to speak to her so badly. I keep checking my cell phone, waiting for the text I know will never come. I get a buzz in my pocket, and I hope, but it is never her, and it likely never will be again. I get angry now whenever someone texts me, because I have hope, and them I am crushed, and I know how stupid it is to hang onto that hope right now.

I am trying to be the person I was before. I don't know who I am right now. I have always been so steady. My friends and family looked to me like a pillar, and I was. But I am shattered, and I cannot place the pieces back together yet. I am still consumed by my thoughts, my obsession with what happened, why, and what will happen. I am consumed by this pain, this agony that sits in the pit of my stomach waiting to consume me, and then it does.

I am worried that now that she has seen me in this state, now that she has heard me beg and seen me cry, she may not ever see the man she fell in love with again. I am terrified that I have disappeared from her for forever. I think I have disappeared from myself.

I am trying to stop looking at her blog. It's a compulsion that I cannot seem to shake. There has to be clues there, and there have been. I am searching for reasons. I am searching for her thoughts and feelings. I am searching for her. I am searching for me. I must still be with her in some way. I must be. How can someone just shut it off like that?

I want to improve and become a better me right now, though I lack the motivation and focus. I know that it is foolish, perhaps selfish, but I am afraid that if she knows I am doing well then it will simply make it easier for her to continue moving on and forget about me. "He's doing well without me, so what I did was not that bad. He is doing better without me, so I did the right thing." I am not choosing to remain in this state, and it is not fair that she gets to be happy and content while I am in agony.

How is this so easy for her?

[livednlearned]

Correction: I meant May 27th

Still pretty fresh.  

How is it so easy for her?

Easy is not a word I would associate with someone who has BPD.

I know that it is foolish, perhaps selfish, but I am afraid that if she knows I am doing well then it will simply make it easier for her to continue moving on and forget about me.

It is probably the opposite, tbh. She is likely consumed with managing her own emotions most of the time, so knowing you have a lot of unprocessed anguish might be too much to handle in addition to her own challenges.

It's a different emotional logic for someone with BPD than it is for non-BPD.

How would you feel about slowly winding down the visits to her blog? If you are looking at it 20 times a day, how about aim for 18. Then 15. Then 12. Going cold turkey might fire up your protest behaviors to level that feels unbearable.

It's really kind that you are sending money to her mom for counseling.

Wise that you reached out to a counselor, and that you knew it wasn't a good fit. Was it anything it particular? I know it took me a few tries to find someone that I connected with.

I don't know how anyone makes it through a BPD relationship without a counselor. The more time focusing on you right now, the better the chance you will be in a state ready for her, if she reaches out to you again. 

Her relationship with this new guy will probably play out the same way every relationship does for her -- she isn't likely to figure things out if she keeps repeating the same pattern. Does she have a pattern of "recycling" past relationships?

What you want is to be ready for a BPD relationship if and when she sends a signal. The communication and relationship skills to be in a BPD partnership are not intuitive and must be learned. Now is a good time to focus on those (starting with self care -- that one is non-negotiable).

Have you walked back your earlier message to her that you don't want to speak to her ever again? I apologize if I got that wrong -- you mentioned earlier that you told her to block you. I wasn't sure if she took that to heart or not, and whether that was the last time you communicated with her. 

[munkeynoodle]

Not speaking to her is one of the most difficult parts of every moment. It is so hard not to reach out. But she is in control of it. If she felt even a spec of the desire to speak as I do I would have heard from her. That's what makes it seem easy. That she is able to do it at all.

It makes sense that I might be too much for her in the state that I am in. When placed in that logic I understand it.

Winding down seems reasonable, but also impossible. I suppose the most tempting aspect is the phone app, which I can just turn my phone on and refresh her page. Whenever I have a moment, and I have many moments, I refresh it. Perhaps I should delete the app, and only check her blog on the laptop on occasion. But I am also afraid of what I may see: if she posts more pictures of a recent escapade with him. I know I am setting myself up for pain, and I am prepared for it every time, but I still need the clues, I need answers. I need to see myself somewhere in her. But I need to stop because I know it will only hurt me.

My counselor was presumptuous and tried leading me into his pre-conceived conclusions about me, her, and us, which I found bothersome. The first reading he sent me home with was about the knights of the round table and Merlin the wizard, a lesson about how love is a "universal force" and a story riddled with words like "being" and "essence", which of course were never defined. It was hippy-ish and contrived, and I am not that kind of person.

She has yet to recycle anyone yet. Her first "relationships" were online when she was a teenager, then she had a real relationship, and then another, and then me, and now him, and with little -and in my case no- gap between them. She moves onto the next, and forgets about the one before, it seems.

But I don't want to be forgotten.

How can I be remembered? Will she ever remember the love she felt? Is it really gone?

She told me that I need to stop contacting her. That we need to move on from each other. I told her that I cannot do that, that I cannot stop myself, so she needs to block me on everything, and asked if she was really ready to never see me again. She didn't answer, except that she blocked me the next day.

For some reason, I was hoping she would not. I was hoping she would realize what it meant. I was hoping she would choose me, just once, because we had so much.

But she didn't.

She blocked me.

And I haven't heard from her since.

I want her to get better, more than anything, even if I never see her again, however that frightens me, but I also worry that I am supporting her healing while she's in another relationship. What if she heals and associates the process with her new relationship? What if I help her get better for him? What if she stops her cycle of pain at the person she is with now? Am I ruining the hope I shouldn't have to begin with?

[livednlearned]

If she felt even a spec of the desire to speak as I do I would have heard from her. That's what makes it seem easy. That she is able to do it at all.

She may be neutralizing painful feelings by diving into the idealization phase of the new relationship (doesn't last).

I suppose the most tempting aspect is the phone app, which I can just turn my phone on and refresh her page. Whenever I have a moment, and I have many moments, I refresh it. Perhaps I should delete the app, and only check her blog on the laptop on occasion.

That would be my recommendation, altho I know it can be hard to do that when you are trying to manage intense pain.

It feels like being erased when someone we love no longer communicates. Is there a precedent for feeling this way for you?

Often, these deep circuits get activated when an intimate relationship goes dark, especially when it's abrupt (no process exists to resolve things mutually).

I don't want to create hope because no one knows what she will do, least of all people who don't know her. I can only say that the best strategy for rekindling a BPD relationship is to be the person she fell in love with, not the guy she left.

The abandonment you feel is not one she can help you through. She is most likely at a total loss herself for how to manage it.

I want her to get better, more than anything, even if I never see her again, however that frightens me, but I also worry that I am supporting her healing while she's in another relationship. What if she heals and associates the process with her new relationship? What if I help her get better for him? What if she stops her cycle of pain at the person she is with now? Am I ruining the hope I shouldn't have to begin with?

Healing BPD is a long term and fairly intensive process, some equate it to reparenting... .not a quick process. And she has to be the one who decides she needs help. It doesn't sound like she has a lot of faith nor interest in counseling from past history.

Do you have any way to know if she is using the money for counseling?

[munkeynoodle]

That was my assumption, that she is consuming herself in this new relationship in an attempt to fill the void inside her and mask her pain and confusion. It's painful for me that I am not the one she values to help her through her issues. Or that she is not aware that she has manageable troubles.

There have not been any incidents of loved ones turning me off, other than a death in the family.

I am trying to be the guy she fell in love with. It is hard with all of this pain, and this obsession. But I am trying, and talking through this is especially helpful.

Her lack of interest in getting help concerns me. I think that at some level she thinks that her issues are simply an innate worthlessness which cannot be changed. She acknowledges some of her behavior patterns -like constantly leaving and beginning relationships- and continuously exhibits intense anxiety and depression, but I do not think she sees them as solvable issues, and -ironically- the thought of change drives her anxiety up and makes her reluctant to take the efforts.

The only way I have to know if she is using the money for counseling is by speaking to her mother. I knew it may have been money wasted considering her lack of interest in counseling, but I do not regret it: I want her to get better, and it is worth the chance.

I am worried that if I do not see her, or if she does not see me, that I will continue to be devalued indefinitely and completely purged from her memory and heart. Should I ask her mother if I can join the family for dinner? Or do I continue being shut off? What are the risks?

I am meeting with her mother again next week and have more information to give her and which I would like her to give to her daughter to read. She is blind right now, I want her mother to try and illuminate things for her. There were occasions when I was able to get her to see how destructive her actions were, but she needs to be guided through it.

Am I crazy for still hanging onto hope? Is this foolish?

[babyducks]

hi munkeynoodle,

Livednlearned packed a great deal of wisdom into her posts.  I echo everything she said.

Her lack of interest in getting help concerns me. I think that at some level she thinks that her issues are simply an innate worthlessness which cannot be changed. She acknowledges some of her behavior patterns -like constantly leaving and beginning relationships- and continuously exhibits intense anxiety and depression, but I do not think she sees them as solvable issues, and -ironically- the thought of change drives her anxiety up and makes her reluctant to take the efforts.

It's very difficult to accept that you might have a mental illness or the traits of one.    With a disorder that is embedded into the personality... .the assumption often is there is nothing wrong, or that changing is not either possible or worthwhile.     At it's very core BPD (and NPD) is a disorder of shame.   So accepting that a illness exists often exacerbates the condition.   In addition,  in the mental health world,  BPD has a stigma attached.    There is a lot of negativity attached to the label.   I would strongly recommend you use it cautiously.

Healing BPD is a long term and fairly intensive process, some equate it to reparenting... .not a quick process. And she has to be the one who decides she needs help. It doesn't sound like she has a lot of faith nor interest in counseling from past history.

livednlearned is absolutely correct.   Long term and intensive.   Often when we arrive here, after having an eureka moment of "Oh I figured it out"   we feel if we share the information it will be received warmly and with gratitude.    That is often not the case.   Many times, I would say most times,  it is used to fuel the conflict that already exists and drives the person farther away from help.

I am not saying it can't be done.  I am saying you want to be very careful how you approach this.    My advice would be to have your therapist or counselor in place and walk through this process with him/her.   To carefully craft your message with some one who is familiar with her and with you and with the complexities of the illness.   Does that make sense?

She seems blinded by her emotional lens,

Yes munkeynoodle, it does look this way.    pwBPD (people with BPD) process life in ways different than you and I.    they have intense emotions that change rapidly.  and for them feelings equal facts.     we tend to assume if we explain thing just the right way, use just the right set of words,  display all the logic then the lightbulb will come on and they will see our point.     pwBPD will process from emotions first.     logic, explaining,... almost always fails because it creates more negative feelings,  feelings of confusion, being wrong,  being called defective or deficient.    pwBPD have significant trouble managing their intense and changeable emotions.   those emotions are difficult for them to 'hold', to sit with.   she just can't turn them off.

how would you feel about slowing this down,  by a week or so, until you are in a better shape and you have a support system that can help you?   

'ducks

[munkeynoodle]

The information which I am giving her mother doesn't say borderline personality disorder or even disorder. I retyped a lot of information from Stop Walking on Eggshells and other excerpts from online in a way that doesn't state an illness or dysfunction is present. My thoughts were that she could read it -after her mother does and approves- and simply relate to it and perhaps consider it. Instead of saying BPD people, I say "some people". Instead of saying disorder, I say "troubles".

I don't want to tell her she has a mental health issue -I have stated such in the past and she resented it- I just want her to see that what she is going through is not unique, that she is not innately broken, and give her something she can relate to, which perhaps could validate how she feels and what she is doing.

The real help and diagnosis will come from her counselor, if she is open to being helped.

I see her mother next week to discuss this, and I am the one who knows her and her troubles and patterns the best. I am hoping we can come to some idea on how to approach this well. Yes, I have been hoping for an "Ah ha" from her, though I know it is out of reach and unlikely.

I really do not want to to remain devalued to her. I read that absence does not make the heart grow fonder for a person with BPD: it makes people disappear, erasing them and their memories. Is this accurate? Should I try to have dinner with her and the family, just try to have some contact and not be forgotten?

I know that it is naive of me, but this idea -of her at least identifying with the information- has given me a lot of hope and quelled much of my anxiety and pain. I feel confident and powerful, like the real me.

[babyducks]

Hi MN,

it's good that you are willing to look at this from all angles.   that's a positive thing.   let's kick around a couple of other ideas.

let's say the material you worked so hard to create is effective for her, that it makes some kind of connection.   at the moment you are not in the best of positions to support her should she decide to pursue it further (which she may not).   your position is awkward at best for two reasons; first you are not currently in communication, and second you describe yourself as pretty spent, emotionally empty and struggling with your own feelings of hurt and grief.    we talk a lot here about the karpman drama triangle.    it's worth a read.    if you haven't already visited the lessons over in the right hand bar     I would encourage you to wander through.   

there are three positions on the karpman drama triangle, persecutor, rescuer and victim.   In a drama people move around the triangle taking various roles in a dysfunctional way.   if you are in the position of rescuer, and she reacts in a maladaptive way, which she might, where do you think she will end up on the triangle?    more attached to the victim role?   "munkeynoodle is just calling me names because we broke up so badly, he just wants to hurt me again"   or in the persecutor role "it's not me that has these troubles it's munkeynoodle, he was so controlling and abusive while we were together"?

Phew that's a lot to digest.   Still with me?   LnL said it really well, the emotional logic of a BPD is NOT the same as the emotional logic of a nonBPD.

I don't want to tell her she has a mental health issue -I have stated such in the past and she resented it-

you have history to over come, first there is the fact she resented you past attempts to communicate with her on this topic.   I assume you don't want a repeat of these conversations right?  You want to carefully organize your message so it creates no more resentment.

and then there is this:

she had a counselling session after she tried to kill herself, but she said she did not want to return, because it is too expensive and she does not want to share so much with a stranger.

the best I can tell her suicide attempt was about 6 weeks ago.    that's not a long time to recover from the trauma of it all (for either of you).   you girlfriend still has to be reactive to that event, and you do not want to do anything that would inadvertently put her back into that head space.   

I'm going to suggest you prioritize counselling for you, to get your stronger, to help deal with your hurt and grief and then consider how to approach either her mother or her.    at a bare minimum please keep working out how you want to deliver this message with us here.     

it often seems unfair that we turn our attention on to the people who post here,   and encourge them to work on themselves.      there is a reason for that.    It's that you are open for help, willing to look at hard issues,  and are more able to deal with the emotional pain.    in whatever direction you go, you will want to be as livednlearned suggested, be able to weather it yourself.

what do you think?

'ducks

[munkeynoodle]

I am trying to look at this in other angles and working with her mother to get the message across the best way possible. I have looked up counselors I think she might like, and think I found one which may be perfect for her, and am hopeful she may be more receptive and open with her, and that maybe she won't find the process too intimidating or pointless. I am giving her mother her information when I speak to her, and am willing to sit down with the counselor as well should she want.

I am working diligently to improve myself and put my pieces back together so that I am whole again. I have been writing and making music more, I just started to go to the gym and have been playing with the dog -I thought about surrendering him because I was unable to take care of him in the state I was in and he was a painful reminder of her- and I am looking into singing lessons and picking back up on my studies of Japanese. The support I have received here, and from my family -particularly my mother who I had move in with me last month to help me take care of myself- and my friends has been wonderful.

I mourned my loss of her the other night. It was like when my uncle died and I finally accepted it.

I am starting to feel like me again. Perhaps the medication is beginning to work earlier than expected, but I am sure it had been the support and rebuilding myself. I am still searching for a better counselor for myself who is in my network, and I am confident that such will help as well.

I am trying to focus more on me than on her or us. I am also cautious that how I feel right now might be tied to the hope that I have for her to recover.

I accept the fact that she may never come home, but I am preparing just in case. I am being stronger and better, because I need to be, and we will both need it if she ever exits the intense fog she is in and remembers her love for me and the happiness we made.

I am reading more books, right now Beyond Borderline, true stories of recovery, and I will be getting I Am Not Sick, I Don't Need Help tomorrow, as well as many others and want to share the information with her mother in trying to find the best ways to reach her. Of course, her counselor will be the best bet, and I am very confident that she may like the one I found. What are good ways to craft a message to such a person?

Still, these questions concern me:

I really do not want to to remain devalued to her. I read that absence does not make the heart grow fonder for a person with BPD: it makes people disappear, erasing them and their memories. Is this accurate? Should I try to have dinner with her and the family, just try to have some contact and not be forgotten?

Am I at risk of disappearing? How long before I should ask her mother if she would be willing to let me have dinner with them?

[babyducks]

I understand object consistency differently.   I don't see it as forgetting, loosing the memory or forgetting.   I  would say that lack of object consistency is again about feelings predominantly.

So when the object of affection is away from the pwBPD,   the feeling is the love, affection, attention is gone, never to return.

People with BPD can not self soothe.    They have difficulty believing that an absence, for work,  for a trip, to go study doesn't mean the feeling is gone forever.

[munkeynoodle]

So is the love she had for me irrevocably lost?

[livednlearned]

So is the love she had for me irrevocably lost?

What does her mom think or say?

[munkeynoodle]

Her mother tries not to say too much about her, except in vagueness, such as assuring me she is going to counselling, that they are speaking more to each other and such. Her focus has been on me and trying to help me through this in the best way that she can while respecting her daughter and the fact that we are no longer together. We talk about the issues she has and how to go about addressing them from a family perspective and I have been trying to give her as much information and support as I am able. She says that she will not say "if they are or are not seeing each other" -which is polite for saying that they are, of which I am aware, but also says that she doesn't think it will last because the relationship is untenable -they live hundreds of miles apart- and because it started out in an unwholesome manner -cheating.

But she is not like an emotionally fit person, who may recall and feel that old flame. Having BPD, is the flame lost forever? Do they recover that emotional memory? Am I lost forever?

[livednlearned]

Having BPD, is the flame lost forever? Do they recover that emotional memory? Am I lost forever?

I recognize the unbearable pain in this question -- it is excruciating to feel the loss of love from someone who has a personality disorder, a confusing mental illness if ever there was one. It can feel like the disorder explains everything, including whether you two will ever be together again.



I don't believe that BPD symptoms explain something as complex as what you're asking.

She may be high functioning, and have more self-awareness than someone else with her symptoms. She might have a PD-NOS (personality disorder not otherwise specified) where she has some criteria from some PDs, but not enough of the criteria for any one PD.

If a psychiatrist did diagnose her with BPD, only 5 criteria are needed out of 9. And in my experience, psychiatrists tend to start with a bipolar diagnosis, or other diagnosis, before BPD. I can't remember how many combinations you can get if you mix the possible 5, but I believe it's in the thousands? You point out that she may be comorbid with dependent personality disorder, which makes it that much more difficult to predict.

It is likely that her BPD symptoms are probably uniquely hers.

What is more assuring is that her mom, who knows her well, thinks the new relationship is tenuous.

And statistically, it's much more common for people to return to main relationship after the new one spins out.

[munkeynoodle]

She told her mother I threatened to kill her.

Is this a part of splitting? Is she making up memories to validate her actions? What the heck?

This hurts so much.

And she posted a picture of her new boyfriend with the caption "Here's the official -him- appreciation post. Thank you for your kindness, your support, your guidance, your patience, your compassion, your hugs, your love, and of course your gooberish ways. These past few months have been hell but you always have had my back every step of the way. You are such an amazing person, i see it more and more in you each day. Thank you for being my best friend and partner in crime"

Is she thanking him for helping her through the hell that was created by her relationship with him? Is she thanking him for helping her through her suicide attempt which was the result of her breaking her family apart because of her relationship with him? Is she thanking him for helping her get over the pain she is causing me, and herself, because of her relationship with him?

I am so lost. I am so confused. I am so broken.

This seems so hopeless.

Am I forever split?

[babyducks]

That had to be very difficult to hear.  Can you put it in context for us?  How did it come up?   What was your response?    How did her mother respond?

[munkeynoodle]

I was suppose to visit her mother yesterday, and I texted her to ask when I should come over, but she said she might not want to because I threatened to kill her daughter. Fortunately, she has also been reading a lot about BPD and recognized that it might be a lie to justify her actions or her splitting making me as negative in her mind as possible, so she still let me talk to her.

I called her, crying like scared child, assuring her I would never say anything like that to her daughter. I would never hurt her. I have been trying so hard to help her, which her mother knows.

The stuff about her new boyfriend she posted online. I don't understand it. It's driving me insane.

Why is this happening? Is she confused? Is she insane? Are there any reasonable explanations?

[childhoodgone]

She told her mother I threatened to kill her.

Is this a part of splitting? Is she making up memories to validate her actions? What the heck?

This hurts so much.

And she posted a picture of her new boyfriend with the caption "Here's the official -him- appreciation post. Thank you for your kindness, your support, your guidance, your patience, your compassion, your hugs, your love, and of course your gooberish ways. These past few months have been hell but you always have had my back every step of the way. You are such an amazing person, i see it more and more in you each day. Thank you for being my best friend and partner in crime"

Is she thanking him for helping her through the hell that was created by her relationship with him? Is she thanking him for helping her through her suicide attempt which was the result of her breaking her family apart because of her relationship with him? Is she thanking him for helping her get over the pain she is causing me, and herself, because of her relationship with him?

I am so lost. I am so confused. I am so broken.

This seems so hopeless.

Am I forever split?

Yes, she makes up memories to validate her actions.

My BPD gf hit me over my face with four knives, but later remembered it as "I forgot that it was anything in the bag, and you were disrespectful to me"

But she accused me repeteadly of "keeping her prisoner locked in the basement" and told this to many others to get their attention and care,

making it sound like she was kept like 1 year in a basement locked (she doesn't mention how long never)

while in reality, we were just not finding the keys from the garden for 1-2 minutes, and we were both in the garrage + under the sky garden.

But this fantasy in which she paints me as some monster

"he kept me locked in the basement"

sounds more interesting and tragic to her listeners than the simple straight facts from reality

[livednlearned]

Oof. That is painful, munkeynoodle. What a shock to hear something like that when the complete opposite is true, that you want nothing more than for her to be ok.

Have you come across triangulation in BPD reading?

Having a weak/no sense of self often means it is more familiar, more comfortable to be the victim (people will take care of me, find me worthy, help me). It sounds like she is using her relationship with you to create a sense of victimization that is plausible for the new guy. That way he can be a white knight (rescuer) and protect her (victim), with you as threat (persecutor).

Did she do a version of this when she started to date you? Mention someone who had done terrible things to her?

It could just as easily have been her mom in the persecutor role.

I don't know if it's insane.

Right now you feel tremendous emotional pain and are doing things to try and alleviate that pain, like reaching out to her mom and looking at social media, knowing on some level this is a way to bargain with the pain. These actions might pay off, but in the meantime they expose you to a lot of hurt and grief (made tolerable by the presence of hope).  

In some ways, it's the same way with BPD, but maybe more intense if that can be imagined. She has tremendous emotional pain and is trying to alleviate it by doing things that are helping in the moment, but aren't doing a whole lot of good to deal with the core pain. Some of her actions seem to be making things worse, but she does them because the payoff appears worth it (fantasy of idealized love).  

how do you feel about your relationship with her mom at this point?

[munkeynoodle]

I suppose she may be playing that role with her new boyfriend, but it seems that in this case she was playing it with her mom.

When she describes things to be she is usually the persecutor and the world is the victim. She says sometimes that she is just a drain on the world and everything is her fault. She generally takes the blame for everything and does not think that she can be rescued or that she is worthy of such.

I am tiered of letting myself feel hope in this hopeless situation. I know she is not coming back. I know she is gone for good. But I cannot stop hoping, and then I am crushed when I remember that this is real, that she is gone, that she left and does not want to come back. She is not coming back.

Her mother and I seem to have a positive relationship right now. She is helping me through a lot, and is grateful for the insight I have given her and care I am extending to help her daughter.

But I know I should not be helping. I know I should not be trying. I know that it is damaging me, and that I should not care for someone who cares so little for me. But I cannot stop.

How do I stop?

[babyducks]

hello munkeynoodle,

what you are going through is very exhausting, very tiring.   it wears a body out emotionally to be on this roller coaster ride of up/down, hope/despair, bad news,  and new information to try and understand.    that's a lot to process for anyone.    how are you feeling today?   

She says sometimes that she is just a drain on the world and everything is her fault. She generally takes the blame for everything and does not think that she can be rescued or that she is worthy of such.

I see that as the victim role, MN.   A victim is helpless,  and feels hopeless, ashamed, guilty and powerless.   A victim seeks others to solve problems and give them validation.    A victim refuses to make decisions, solve problems or seek professional help.   A victim is dependent on a rescuer.  A white knight to save the day.   A person in the victim role would express as 'my previous relationship was very bad but then I found some one to save me, protect me, and make it all perfect."   A victim takes no ownership of their situation.    It's on some one else to fix, and it's someone else's fault.

None of that is actually true of course.    The victim isn't really powerless or helpless.   and the rescuer, the white knight, the person who gains self esteem by "helping" others, who tries to be considerate and selfless, who feels the need to fix problems and often feels like a failure when the other person complains?    well they aren't really helping either.   

staying in the drama, participating in the drama, fuels the drama.

But I know I should not be helping. I know I should not be trying. I know that it is damaging me, and that I should not care for someone who cares so little for me. But I cannot stop.

How do I stop?

babysteps.   babysteps.    it doesn't usually feel like we've made any progress until we look back at where we were a couple of months ago.    I know when things have felt very bad for me I wanted to fix everything all at once.    and then I got mad when it didn't work that way.    stupidly it really was babysteps. 

if you cannot stop, everything, immediately, completely today, try and slow it down.   set simple, managable easy to achieve goals.   I won't check social media for the next hour.     I will do some positive self care for me today by ______________(fill in the blank).    I will take a break from thinking about her, and our relationship for a half an hour by doing ___________(fill in the blank).   I've found swimming to be helpful in giving myself a mental break, a mental time out.   Bike riding too.    An engrossing movie or tv show.   it's doing something that pushes back against the obession.

hang in there.    it does get better.    you've got some work ahead of you, but you definetly can do it and you can feel better.

'ducks

[munkeynoodle]

I am feeling alright today, though still exhausted, and I still cannot stop these thoughts.

I try setting goals and taking baby steps like setting time limits on when I can do things, but then my anxiety begins to build as I wait for the time I am allowed to check my phone, and I cannot stop checking the clock, and time seems to go by so slowly, and then I check the clock, and then my anxiety builds, and then it seems like forever, and I check the clock, but it has only been six minutes, and I feel an attack coming, and I take my medication, but it's too late, and the attack is near, and I check the clock, and it is not time yet, but I cannot take it and I check my phone, but she hasn't texted -because she never will again- and it's painful to realize, and I check her blog, and her instagram, and refresh them, and reread them, and look for clues, for answers, and the attack hits when I know it doesn't matter, that she doesn't care and she is gone forever and there is nothing I can do.

I am trying baby steps.

I have been working on myself. I joined a gym and got a personal trainer: something I have been meaning to do for myself for a long time now. I am writing more, and making more music. I reached out to my doctor about sleep medication, because I wake up too early every night -and was up for over 24 hours yesterday- in a panic thinking about her, what happened, and how none of it can be real. I cannot stop it, it just happens. She is even in my dreams: and even there she refuses me. I am trying to watch movies and focus on them, but my mind just wanders. When I work out, when I run, when I do anything my mind wanders to her. There is no quieting my mind: there never has been a way.

Yesterday I went into one of my fits of anguish -which had diminished in frequency when I felt hope, and before I was told she said I was going to kill her- where I scream and plead and apologize, my chest squeezes and I can't breath, my heart bursts, and it is so painful and I am never sure how I am going to get through those moments. I think of everything that happened, what she did, what she is doing, wondering why, feeling the hopelessness, and it can't be real. I just had her a moment ago. It can't be real. But it is. Somehow, it is real.

Then I recovered and went to the gym. I worked out hard, for myself, because I have wanted to for so long, but I could not stop thinking about how impresses she would be the next time I saw her. Losing my stomach -i've lost 20lbs since she left- getting toned, and tanning evenly. I mostly felt great about the progress I am making for myself, but there is always a piece of her in everything I do.

As soon as I got into the car I had another fit. It can't be real. How could she just be gone? How could she choose him over me? Why do I care so much about someone who is so hurtful, and mean, and uncaring? How can she do this? Is there really nothing I can do? Is there nothing anyone can do? It is so hopeless. I feel so hopeless.

How does one exit the victim role, and is there a way for someone to point out their role? How and when do they come to see their actions and how they affect the ones they love and themselves?

How do I stop letting hope in?

How do I quiet such a loud and unruly mind?

[babyducks]

Hello munkeynoodle,

thanks for you long post.  it really helps to pour details out here.   I always found when writing a post, the simple act of organizing my thoughts, helped me gain clarity.    and when reading a post, I find it increases understanding to have some of the significant details.

you are doing all the right things.         trying to slow down reaction times,  going to the gym, attempting to turn the focus away from her as best you can.    you are doing the right things.     you are asking good questions.    trying to absorb all you have coming at you right now is like drinking from a fire hose.   what you are doing will produce results, it will not be instantaneous, but it will change.

like livednlearned, I can feel the emotional turmoil you are experiencing, it comes through in what you write.    that's a good thing.   get it all out here.    we understand.     I can tell how much you care.    what I think is having 'hope' is a good thing.  Hope is a postive personality characteristic.    matching hope to the new pracitcal reality is going to be a touch tricky.    what's  a realistic hope?   and what's an unrealistic hope?   (not rhetorical questions)

You've been badly hurt by what's happened.   It's understandable.    I would be too.   I was actually.    Even if she texts you today, or tomorrow, returning the relationship to what it was before is not possible.   It's not tenable.   there has been too much water over that bridge.   please understand I am not saying that everything is doomed.    what I am saying is that if she reaches out to you, or if you reach out to her,  you want to do it from a place of "wisemind"

https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

what do you think?

'ducks

P.S.  please keep posting... .   

[livednlearned]

munkeynoodle,

I really admire you for taking care of yourself while you're going through this. Other than the death of a loved one, the end of a long-term relationship is one of the most severe emotional blows we experience. It's genuine emotional trauma

I remember reading that a breakup can feel like heroin withdrawal, that it physiologically hits the same pain receptors, and manifests as physical pain.

Which is why it's all the more admirable that you are expressing what you're going through here. A lot of times people do the opposite -- they avoid talking about it. That only makes it worse in the long run. You are able to get yourself to the gym and take care of yourself, and are reaching out to your doctor for help sleeping. Are you able to stay in touch with people socially, to be around people who know you and care about you?

[munkeynoodle]

I am staying in touch with my friends and spending as much time with them as possible, though my drive to do anything is diminished, and most of my friends drink, which I am trying to avoid. I speak to my family a lot on the phone, and I had my mother move in with me shortly after the split to help me take care of myself and the dog. This forum is a huge help, and I am still in the market for a better therapist.

My unrealistic hope is that she will exit this emotional fog she is in, either herself or as she continues therapy, and as that happens she will realize how the mistakes she made were hurtful to the family she made and herself, and maybe that flame she had for me which she is burying with her new infatuation will begin to spark again.

My realistic hope is that I find a way to abolish my unrealistic hope and be as stoic and steady as I was before I was shattered.

I know that our relationship is gone forever, and nothing can bring it back. She said it wouldn't be the same if she came back, and I agreed: I said it would be different, and it could be better. It would be a completely different relationship with different expectations and understandings.

I think about her coming home, or me seeing her, and I know that it would not contain a powerful connection, because I am still in pain, and she is still unremorseful. I think about holding her, and I have to pull away. I think about kissing her, and I have to turn away. I think about making love, and I need to run. She shattered me and gave it all to him.

But I also know that it is not impossible. I have a pair of best friends who overcame a similar situation, and they have one of the best marriages anyone could look at. And my aunt and uncle -who I always thought were the picture perfect christian marriage- suffered the same at the beginning of their relationship. With support, and therapy, and love, I can get past my pain. And with perspective, and therapy, and true remorse it is possible for her to be worthy of the effort.

But I fear that it is all too much, that it is not worth the effort for her.

On these forums I get mixed messages:

        When she splits, finds someone else and goes no-contact, you are done, and there is nothing you can do.

        Let her know you are fine with being finished and not having her in your life and continue no-contact, that is the only way
        to draw a BPD person back to you.

        :)o not continue no-contact, because absence makes a BPD heart grow colder and you will continue to be devalued and
        fade away.

I told her that her new new boyfriend and I cannot co-exist in her life, because their relationship has cause us and me too much pain, so she chose to cut me out. I haven't heard from her in three weeks.

I am struggling right now with whether or not to reach out and try not to fade away from her. But doing so might make me seem clingy and weak, not like the man she fell in love with. Or if I continue no-contact, I will continue to fade and she will never contact me, because she does not care.

I asked her mother to talk to her and see how she might feel or think about seeing me, but I am not sure if I should, or what would be best for me, or for her, or for a potential us in the future.

Should I continue no-contact, and why?

Should I reach out, and why?

It feels like I will be wrong no matter what I choose.