Advice request - Dating(?) someone with kids

[BeagleGirl]

So I'm considering dating someone and already anticipating everything that could go wrong and trying to mitigate the risks.  (And here I thought I had locked up my inner control freak.)  I'd really appreciate any thoughts/experience you can share.

I'm very recently divorced (it was final May 25th) about 18 months after separating from my dBPDxh.  I'm definitely not in "second husband search" mode.  I'm looking for non-exclusive friendship/companionship, dipping my toes back in the water, and enjoying a bit of male attention, but was thinking I'd wait until November/December before looking for a date. 

Along comes "Neighbor B".  He's a nice guy who lives about a quarter mile away on my cul de sac.  He's been divorced 4 years and has two kids, D11 and S9.  We've chatted when we run into each other on neighborhood walks (we both have dogs that enjoy an evening walk) and have recently started texting.  I've borrowed his ladder and his kids always know to hit me up when they are doing fund raisers. 

Before my divorce was final we were talking about movies and he made the comment that we should see a movie together some time, and I really wasn't sure if it was just a "two neighbors who have free time seeing a movie" suggestion or a "you're nearly single and I'd like to get to know you better" invite, so I didn't really respond (it was phrased in a way that didn't seem to require a response).  He's checked in with me on how things were going periodically, so he knows my divorce is final and we've talked some about how he handled his ex introducing her new boyfriend (now husband) to his kids so soon after their divorce, since my ex just did the same with my boys.  I'll admit that my walks take me by his house more frequently, and he seems to be weeding or out walking his dog with a proportionate increase in frequency.  On at least two occasions he has suggested dinner together.  The first time was during a neighborhood power outage and I wasn't quite ready to decide if I wanted to go out with him and risk it being a date, so I declined.  The second was a response to me saying he should tell about his job some time (he had his kids with him and it wasn't a great time to have a long conversation) where he said - "Yeah.  We should grab dinner some time and talk".

He's shared with me how tiring it can be with his custody schedule - he has the kids every week from Friday evening to Tuesday morning and works a standard work week.  I love kids and mine (S19 and S15) don't need me as much even when I have custody (every other week), so I offered to babysit when I don't have my boys so he can get some free time.  His kids came over yesterday for a few hours and we had a blast. 

So now I feel like I have a dilemma.  I really like his kids and would love to spend time with them.  I've got the next 2-3 "play dates" already in mind.  I feel like I could handle doing things as a foursome occasionally if I knew we adults were just friends and that's all there would ever be.  The kids have already suggested a foursome activity and he's hinted at joining the next activity I have planned with the kids.  What I DON'T want is to start "dating" the three of them.  I feel pretty strongly that kids should be kept out of a dating relationship until it's pretty serious, and I'm not anywhere near serious.  I also want to be wooed properly, not as a nanny with potential for benefits. 

I think there's at least potential that he'd be interested in dating me and I wouldn't mind getting to know him better.  I'd like to preserve the option to enjoy time with his kids regardless of what happens (or doesn't happen) between the adults and feel like that would mean keeping a strict separation between the two worlds.  I tend to be a pretty up-front person, and my first instinct is to have a conversation with him that would clear up his intentions and my boundaries, but I don't want to seem presumptuous or like I'm asking for a date.

And in the background I'm watching myself try to take care of everyone and everyone's feelings... .  Sigh.  I don't have any reason to believe that he's disordered, but I know I will always struggle to know where the line is between healthy and joyous giving of my time and energy and unhealthy codependent behaviors.

BG

[Insom]

Hi, BeagleGirl!

It sounds like you've enjoyed flirting with "Neighbor B!"  Flirting is fun and I bet the attention feels great even if you're not sure where you want this to go. 

So now I feel like I have a dilemma.  I really like his kids and would love to spend time with them.  I've got the next 2-3 "play dates" already in mind.  I feel like I could handle doing things as a foursome occasionally if I knew we adults were just friends and that's all there would ever be.  The kids have already suggested a foursome activity and he's hinted at joining the next activity I have planned with the kids.  What I DON'T want is to start "dating" the three of them.  I feel pretty strongly that kids should be kept out of a dating relationship until it's pretty serious, and I'm not anywhere near serious.  I also want to be wooed properly, not as a nanny with potential for benefits.

OK, so you've made a clear statement about how you DON'T want this to evolve.  Can you envision a positive dating outcome with this guy?  If so, what does it look/feel like?

I tend to be a pretty up-front person, and my first instinct is to have a conversation with him that would clear up his intentions and my boundaries, but I don't want to seem presumptuous or like I'm asking for a date.

How do you feel about waiting to act on this?  Can you make a conscious decision to sit with it 'til you feel more clear?

[BeagleGirl]

Hi, BeagleGirl!

It sounds like you've enjoyed flirting with "Neighbor B!"  Flirting is fun and I bet the attention feels great even if you're not sure where you want this to go.  

OK, so you've made a clear statement about how you DON'T want this to evolve.  Can you envision a positive dating outcome with this guy?  If so, what does it look/feel like?

How do you feel about waiting to act on this?  Can you make a conscious decision to sit with it 'til you feel more clear?

Yep.  The flirting has been fun.    And it does feel good to be noticed.

I can see a number of potential positive outcomes:
-Completely platonic friendship.  I think we share enough interests to have good conversation.  He "gets" what it's like to go through a divorce, which is not something my current circle of friends "gets".  In this scenario I would feel comfortable doing foursome activities and I would love to spend time with his kids while he goes on dates and eventually step back if/when he or I find someone to get serious with.
-Flirty acquaintances.  I don't know that this one would be sustainable, but I would say this is kinda what we've got going on now.  When the kids are around my focus is on them with asides to him and I keep it brief and light.  When the kids aren't around we can have more lengthy conversations and there's the hint of attraction under the surface.  I don't think this is sustainable because I'm a "relationship" kind of gal, whether friendship or otherwise and I'm wanting to get to know him better.
-Ice breaker dating relationship followed by friendship.  I'm completely inexperienced with dating, so I don't know if this is possible... .but I'd like to think that we could date a bit, figure out we're not well suited for anything more than completely platonic friendship, and transition to that.  This is the one that I'm most concerned with keeping the kids out of and think it would be difficult to be successful with if we did foursome activities.
-Neighbor B patiently auditions for "second husband" role.  I married the first guy who asked me to be his girlfriend.  We didn't really date because I was 14 and he was 15 and I wasn't allowed to date until I was 16.  We "went steady", got engaged, got married, had kids, and ... .well, I ended up here.  Nothing against Neighbor B, but I REALLY don't want to "settle" this time.  I want to be picky.  So Neighbor B has a huge strike against him in being the first guy to pay any attention to me.  That said, I don't know yet if Neighbor B might be "the one".  Nor do I know if he'd be willing to wait around long enough for me to figure that out.  In my "ideal timeline" I would rather not be considering marriage for another 3 years and I'd like to do a decent amount of dating so I feel like I'm not "settling".  In this scenario, I definitely want to keep the kids isolated from any dating drama unless/until I feel like Neighbor B would be leading the pack for marriage material.  I'd love to think that I could hang out with him and his kids separately while I figure things out, but I don't know if that would be too hard on any/all of us.

Nightmare scenario - we date and the kids know and one of us falls hard for the other but the other just doesn't feel the same and everyone gets hurt and one of us has to move or choke down the tears every time we pass the other's house.

Did I mention I'm an overthinker?  

[Fie]

Hello BeagleGirl  

Did I mention I'm an overthinker?

You didn't have to  :-P

How about bringing up your concerns with your neighbor ? I don't mean to have a heavy conversation about this... .Just, maybe a small remark, like 'hey, remember you asking me out on a date ? I think I kinda like that idea ... .but where does this leave me and your kids ?'

Or you could wait to talk to him about this until you've had one or some dates with him ?

I'd say, go out and enjoy yourself. Don't make this a very big thing until you know more. You are mentioning your nightmare scenario, but don't you think the chances are bigger that another scenario would play ? Like, you go out a few times and become great friends. You keep on seeing him and his kids, separately or together (or both). Or, you both develop feelings for each other and something beautiful comes from it. Or, you both decide that, while being great neighbors, there is nothing really more than that between you.

No need to think about marriage scenarios at this stage I think. What do you think ?

[BeagleGirl]

So I decided to move forward with asking Neighbor B’s permission to take his kids to a drive-in. I found out on our last “play date” that they’ve never been and I have very fond memories of going with my kids when they were younger. Neighbor B is fine with the plan and said he’d “be interested as well!”  (Yes, I’m totally over analyzing that exclamation point). I let him know he’s welcome to come, but I insist on paying for his kids (a bit of a joke because their admission is free).

I think I’ve decided to just see how the movie outing goes. I feel like I need to let go of trying to know/control everything and get a bit more comfortable with letting things unfold. Hopefully it will become apparent whether he’s interested in anything more than friendship pretty quickly and we can discuss boundaries between kid and adult relationships before slipping into a pattern of foursome activities.

In fact, I’m thinking that if he doesn’t move forward with planning that “just the two of us” dinner he proposed, that’s my answer. Even if he seems interested in something more, I’m not interested in dating a guy who feels it’s okay to bring kids along on “dates”.

[Skip]

He's shared with me how tiring it can be with his custody schedule - he has the kids every week from Friday evening to Tuesday morning and works a standard work week.  I love kids and mine (S19 and S15) don't need me as much even when I have custody (every other week), so I offered to babysit when I don't have my boys so he can get some free time.  His kids came over yesterday for a few hours and we had a blast.  

So now I feel like I have a dilemma.

I might think that entering a potential relationship, kids first, as a first post divorce excursion into the single world is something to think twice about. All things equal, it's not something I would encourage.

1. I think it is best to do some easy dating... .where you can get in and out easily. Coffee dates, meet at a public event, etc. (no family involvement). I think you will find dating has changed and it takes a little experience to learn to navigate it productively. You have to kiss some frogs.

2. Try not to enter children's lives causally when dating. It's complicated for them.

If you are interested in him, I'd get to know him for a few months one-on-one.

I have some biases here. I know my ex was really hurt by mom bringing men in and out of her life. It wasn't excessive, but it was hard on her. I also found exiting my relationship with her to be very complicated for me because I was a father figure to her boys and loved them. It took me years to grieve the loss of them in my life.

My current partner took 4 months before introducing me to her kids. They are all 30+. I remember dining one-on-one with her eldest and she was telling me how hard it was on her sisters. They still struggled with their mom and dad's divorce (5 years prior). This is after 2 years of me dating her mom.

One perspective to consider... .

[BeagleGirl]

Skip,
Thanks for sharing your experience and cautions.  I've definitely thought a lot about the cons and potential cons.  I'm just not sure whether to nip things in the bud or proceed with caution.  I'm hoping that going slow and having some open conversations early on will help me to decide, but this is all new to me.  I'll definitely think more on what you've said.
BG

[BeagleGirl]

Here's an update.  I'm posting here because I'd love to get my thoughts out in the open so they can be examined a bit more easily.  Feel free to comment/ask questions.

He's definitely joining the outing to the movies.  We've texted about it and all the logistics have been settled, other than the kid's admission, which he's arguing he should pay and thereby playing right into my scheme of "fighting" over up to the moment when he learns that the kids are free.   

We moved from logistical texts to some more "getting to know a bit about you" texts.  I would say that I tend to lead the way with sharing and he seems to respond with comments that could be interpreted as inviting future interaction, but very vague.  Like:

Me - "I think I would do really well on the show Chopped.  Our cupboard was frequently bare, so making a meal from what was there was a skill I picked up." (I had previously told him that I started cooking for a family of 5 when I was 12 because my mom went back to school, but I never saw it as a chore.)

Neighbor B - "I'll remember that when my cupboard is bare.  You can show me what to make."

Oh the fodder for over analyzing in that! 

So I took the step of asking whether he played Words With Friends.  Unbeknownst to him, the ability to beat me at WWF, at least occasionally, is on my list of requirements for future partner.  (My friends keep encouraging me to move that to "Like to Have", but I consider it essential).  He was thrilled to hear I enjoy WWF and we started a game.  We played and chatted until well after midnight, mostly about other games we like to play in general and with our kids.  He ended with a promise to play more the next day and a "good night".  There were no more plays or chats until late the next night, when he played and left a message telling me what he had been busy with that evening. 

So that's where it stands.  Now for my feelings/thoughts.

If this is just a friendship, I have no qualms about initiating conversations and leading in "getting to know you".  If it might be something more, I feel I should take a more passive role.  I feel like I took the lead role in my relationship with dBPDxh and that allowed him to be passive.  I don't want to continue in my pattern of working to earn/be worthy of someone's interest/regard/love and allowing them to take advantage of my eagerness to please and put in minimal effort.  I want to know that I am seen and valued for who I am.  I want to be pursued as something that is worth the effort. 

BUT I am also much more comfortable in the driver's seat.  It's what I lived out in my marriage.  I was the one to say I wanted more than friendship.  I was the one to suggest getting engaged.  I was the one that decided we should move up the wedding date.  I was the one who said "I'm ready to have kids".  I feel like I led the way on all major decisions, and so I want my next partner to actually be a partner.  I want them to have strong opinions on where things should go, what they want, what they need.  So I feel like I need to get out of the driver's seat and if he's willing to take the wheel.  But leaving space for that to happen feels like a giant gaping void of uncertainty that must be filled... .immediately! 

The other thing I've been thinking about is this concept that I can choose.  Even if he's interested in more than friendship, I can choose to say "nope".  I can decide that the risk of the complications I mentioned in my first post are not worth it and wait for something else to come along.  I am pretty sure that feels more difficult to do because I'm still not convinced that something else will come along.  I want to be very sure that I'm not settling for "Mr. Here" when I should be holding out for "Mr. Right". 

And then there's the thought that I should be able to just relax and enjoy the unfolding of... .whatever this is, and put up boundaries or end things if/when they aren't what I want.  If only I could find that switch to turn off my overthinking.  For now I'm just trying to manage it. 

[Insom]

If this is just a friendship, I have no qualms about initiating conversations and leading in "getting to know you".  If it might be something more, I feel I should take a more passive role.

What do you want it to be?

[Skip]

... .but very vague.

This sounds like standard "male|female" safe testing (minimum vulnerability) of the other persons interests.

If you want this to be a friendship, you should declare that. If one of you is tracking for a romance and the other is tracking for a "friendship or whatever might develop", feelings can get hurt or it can appear that you are playing with him. There i a lot of game playing going on in the dating world with the Internet. You don't want to trip that trigger.

If you are not sure, you should express (when he probes it) that you are not looking for a serious relationship right now. That cools things/slows them down, and changes the expectations, but leave the door open.

Just some thoughts.

[BeagleGirl]

What do you want it to be?

Great question.  For the time being, I'd like it to be friendship with kissing {blush} and openness to figuring out if we would want anything more serious and longer term, but not too quickly.

I think I mentioned before that I married the first guy who expressed interest in me.  I would say that my tendency would be to find someone I could "make it work" with and focus on making it work rather than looking elsewhere.  For that reason, I want to avoid making anything exclusive until I've had the opportunity to date more than one guy, but I'm not exactly sure how to go about finding those other guys to date.    I don't think I'm ready to dive into online dating, and my normal life activities don't seem to bring me into contact with single, eligible guys that often.  

I think Neighbor B is a pretty nice guy, but we haven't really had enough conversation for me to know much about who he is.  I think that dating him could feel a bit safer than starting with a complete stranger, but I do also recognize the potential downsides if things go south.  I think I'm holding onto the optimistic(?) view that we're both adults and capable of managing our feelings.  I'd like to think that we could date and walk away hoping the best for the other if we're not well suited (or find someone else), or even have a decent friendship at the end of it.  

Of course (as an overthinker) I've thought about what it would be like to figure out that Neighbor B is "the one".  I know that his kids would be a bonus and our age difference (he's 10.5 years older than me) seems manageable, if not ideal.  He seems financially secure and we (so far) share similar interests and viewpoints.  The biggest questions I currently have is whether he wants and is capable of relationship - friendship or otherwise.  I'm a bit impatient at the moment because I like to dive right in and the pace feels a bit slow to me.  I've considered that he may be purposefully be keeping things slow because he knows how recently my divorce was final, but I definitely don't like acting on assumptions about what someone else is thinking/feeling.    

I just want the guy to ask me out so I can start to get to know him!  

[BeagleGirl]

If you are not sure, you should express (when he probes it) that you are not looking for a serious relationship right now. That cools things/slows them down, and changes the expectations, but leave the door open.

So would you advise waiting for him to probe?  This is the question I keep asking myself.  Do I initiate that conversation or wait for him to create an opening?  I'm doing what I can to indicate some level of interest in something, but don't want to scare him off or speed things up prematurely... .  I feel like I'm in junior high again and should pass him a note with "Check the the appropriate box: You don't like me.  You like me.  You like like me.  You want to be my boyfriend."

Sigh.  I'm now going to distract myself by trying to figure out what to wear on Saturday. 

[Notwendy]

Hi BG- I don't usually wander over to this section but I have read your story and am glad the divorce is settled for you.

Sometimes we see ourselves in someone's story, so forgive me if I am off base here, but I wanted to address your current situation.

You are a very strong person and you came from a marriage where you did a lot of fixing of your H's dilemmas. I came from a FOO with BPD mother and so I too have these tendencies to help others with their own dilemmas. It's such second nature to me to do this that I can jump in to help before recognizing that what I am doing is likely going to lead to resentment on my part.

When dealing with my own marital issues, I had to look back at the beginning- dating. My H had a busy schedule and I started by helping by taking on domestic tasks. But what I really wanted was romance and he was too busy for that, so I accepted the little time he had for me- and still did the tasks. I wanted romance and got dishes and laundry instead. However, I can't blame him for taking me up on what I set up in the first place- without being clear about what I wanted. It was actually dishonesty on my part to do this.

Here is the part that concerns me: Your neighbor mentioned that it is difficult sometimes to have the kids during his custody time. That's his problem to solve, and he has the capacity to hire a sitter, or trade play dates with another parent, or other possible solutions. You offered to watch the kids sometime- but also you do want to get to know him better. It's fine to watch the kids if there was no other feelings on your part, and if the relationship were to only stay as friendly neighbors, and also if it were reciprocal because over time you would probably feel resentful if it were not. But you do have "feelings"... .I think there are sparks between the two of you - whether or not you want to go down that path. But if you want sparks don't be the nanny. You said it yourself:

What I DON'T want is to start "dating" the three of them.  I feel pretty strongly that kids should be kept out of a dating relationship until it's pretty serious, and I'm not anywhere near serious.  I also want to be wooed properly, not as a nanny with potential for benefits.  


So, IMHO- if you don't want to be the nanny- don't start the relationship by being the nanny. You are not being clear about what you really want and this is setting a precedence that you will likely resent over time.  

I realize that long term relationships do involve domestic duties, jobs, laundry, child care and all kinds of necessary tasks. This is a new one and who knows where it will lead, but if you want to be wooed, and have a nice one on one date, go for the one on one date next time after this movie one.

And, enjoy the friendship    I hope it all works out well for you.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like he's being respectful of your newly single status and not pushing things to move more quickly.

I agree with Notwendy that you shouldn't put a lot of time into being the nanny. However, it's a plus for him that his kids like you so much. But definitely make yourself busy with other things so you're not tempted to volunteer childcare very often.

And take a deep breath and get to know him as a friend. See if romantic feelings develop on both sides. Learn more about him and what he likes to do when he doesn't have the kids.

I wouldn't worry that he's the first guy you've thought about dating. You can keep it light and friendly and if he's interested in a relationship, he'll pursue you. In the meantime, volunteer for community events, get involved with classes that interest you, join some groups like MeetUp, do things you didn't do when you were married and likely you'll cross paths with other single men. Have fun!

Cat