Selfish or Survival

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

EnablerW - So I've been meaning to talk to you about me going for a run at 6:30 in the morning.

Enabler - What, leaving the kids at home on their own? (Kids are 9 / 8 / 5)

EnablerW - Yes

Enabler - Hmmm (think of something really really quickly which isn't "are you smoking rock", well I understand that I doubt anything bad would happen and the kids are perfectly capable of looking after themselves, but the way I think about it is that what if something bad did happen, what would the police say and how would you live with the guilt?

EnablerW - I just don't get any other chance to exercise now, M (another Mum) leaves S with O on his own and all the other mums get to go out early morning for a run.

Enabler - But O is 14-15, D9 not old enough to be in charge of herself let alone Heidi. If D9 was 13 or so I'd have less of a problem. Ultimately though it's your decision.

EnablerW... .leave room


I believe that uBPDw self medicates with exercise. Due to her choices she is less able to exercise. Couple this with her tumbling emotional state due to divorce (she wants), affair, religious turmoil, invalidating children leaving her emotions are high, depression getting deeper and she's now clawing like a drowning cat for her survival... .that survival mechanism is seen in running it out... .surviving might mean running over the kids as she bolts for the lake to put out the flames.

She knows this is wrong and would be the first to condemn and parent on the news who was convicted of doing a similar thing yet her need is compelling her to at least consider it as an option. 

[Enabler]

EnablerW - So I've been meaning to talk to you about me going for a run at 6:30 in the morning.

Enabler - What, leaving the kids at home on their own? (Kids are 9 / 8 / 5)

EnablerW - Yes

Enabler - Hmmm (think of something really really quickly which isn't "are you smoking rock", well I understand that I doubt anything bad would happen and the kids are perfectly capable of looking after themselves, but the way I think about it is that what if something bad did happen, what would the police say and how would you live with the guilt?

EnablerW - I just don't get any other chance to exercise now, M (another Mum) leaves S with O on his own and all the other mums get to go out early morning for a run.

Enabler - But O is 14-15, D9 not old enough to be in charge of herself let alone Heidi. If D9 was 13 or so I'd have less of a problem. Ultimately though it's your decision.

EnablerW... .leave room


I believe that uBPDw self medicates with exercise. Due to her choices she is less able to exercise. Couple this with her tumbling emotional state due to divorce (she wants), affair, religious turmoil, invalidating children leaving her emotions are high, depression getting deeper and she's now clawing like a drowning cat for her survival... .that survival mechanism is seen in running it out... .surviving might mean running over the kids as she bolts for the lake to put out the flames.

She knows this is wrong and would be the first to condemn and parent on the news who was convicted of doing a similar thing yet her need is compelling her to at least consider it as an option. 

[Notwendy]

Can you hire a sitter so she can exercise? I don't know how many are available that time but if there is another time during the day , is it possible?

I'm not thinking about a large amount of money- maybe a high school student or college student who can come over for a little while so W can exercise.

There are a lot worse things to self medicate with, and it could be win- win all around if you can afford the expense. Kids usually like a "big kid" to hang out with for a while, the student gets some pocket money, and your wife is in a better state of mind.

[Notwendy]

This kind of thinking reminds me of teen agers " but all the other mums let their kids do that" . Well, I'm not their mum"

There is either a solution- like the sitter, or she is left with the decision. She's basically asked you for "permission" to endanger the kids.

How would this look with validation/boundary of the law?

EnablerW - So I've been meaning to talk to you about me going for a run at 6:30 in the morning.

Enabler - What, leaving the kids at home on their own? (Kids are 9 / 8 / 5)

EnablerW - Yes

Enabler - I understand that you want to run, and I think it is a good thing to do but the legal age to leave a child home alone is 12.

EnablerW - I just don't get any other chance to exercise now, M (another Mum) leaves S with O on his own and all the other mums get to go out early morning for a run.

Enabler - But O is 14-15. Our kids are under 12 and it is against the law.

[Enabler]

Yes, I agree she was asking for permission, knowing full well that it was a woefully bad thought. However, it's not for me to come up with solutions for her, plus I'm not sure how it sits validating the her delusion that she does not get a chance to exercise. She exercises most days and considerably more than most people who live normal lives (I'd say min 5x a week). By validating her feeling that she doesn't get an opportunity to exercise and therefore needs the 6:30 run facilitated I'm validating the invalid. Similarly validating that it's okay to leave the kids on their own is also foolish and validating the invalid.

I stopped short of pointing out that she was suggesting she break the law as I thought it would trigger a shame response. Plus I thought showing her how I would think about the decision rather actually telling her what my rule would be would be more helpful.

I doubt I have heard the end of this and wouldn't be surprised if I hear from the kids that Mummy has gone for a run at 6:30am leaving them on their own.

I do like the suggestion of low cost solution, however, I would like her to bare the burden of this cost and for her to make choices and sacrifices elsewhere in her life if this is something she chooses to do... .irrespective of how beneficial this is for us as a whole family. Now is not the time given divorce to be showing that she gets everything she feels she wants. She needs to see my 'Tough Love'.

[Notwendy]

I agree with the tough love.

I was taking the perspective that she didn't get time to exercise, but it seems she does have that opportunity at other times.

So I agree with how you are handling it.

[Ltahoe]

I know my opinion might not be popular, I understand most of us are “caretakers” all to different degrees. I am too but apparently not as caretaking as others here. So I’m going to throw out my opinion bluntly the way I think about it. You’re wife knows that her decision is not a good one you’ve actually confirmed this by knowing she would criticize others that would do the same. You know it’s a bad decision too. You have to set limits and risking the safety of childeren should definitely be crossing a limit. It seems like your wife already has time to exercise 5x a week so what’s the need all the sudden for additional exercise? If she still does need it You would think there’s a time or way to make it work at a different time or other alternatives. I may think more reasonable with pwBPD I also love to exercise and with a family I have found ways to fit that in around a schedule that works. Perhaps if your wife is interested in running perhaps she can get a treadmill or if it’s cardio she’s after and not a specific form maybe an exercise bike would work too. I know running or biking inside isn’t usually preferred to outdoors but it’s the compromise that would allow her to be home with the kids while getting in some morning cardio. These are compromises any logical person would make, Ive had to take the majority of my cardio indoors because of the same exact situation, kids that need supervision.

I’d bring up some of the alternatives such as times, indoor options etc. if she’s still rigid in the time I’d start to get curious why. Maybe I’m being a little cynical or pessimistic by stating this, but you’ve mentioned affairs and wanting divorce. if someone is that inflexible about the time and the other available options it would kind of make me curious why someone is stuck on a particular time that just doesn’t work for the family. Of course pwBPD do things that make no logical sense sometimes and just hate to alter from their initial idea since they feel like they were wrong by having to change, so that may just be the case here too, she’s set on an idea and inflexible about it as of now.

So now how would I go about this if I was in this situation?  I’d probably say W I know you want to get some extra cardio in by running. Is there a reason you want to run over other forms of cardio? If so do you think we can come up with better times, so what other times do you think might work? And bring up alternative ideas that work and let her come up with some too but let her ultimately decide on reasonable alternatives.

[Enabler]

Thanks Ltahow,

TBH I'm not sure the actual proposition has anything to do with her actual real ability to exercise. She does get to exercise 5x+ a week and has the opportunity to exercise in the evenings etc etc. I do think there's an element of preferring to exercise in the mornings and to an extent self medicating by exercising to improve her moods... .BUT... .and it's a big BUT... .it's also yet more gnawing at the metaphorical bars that she perceives contain her in a terrible existence. Like you say she knows that her proposition was ludicrous and she also knows there's very little in the way of solutions I can come up with to rectify that for her... .other than Notwendy's suggestion of hired help. I think a couple of things have kicked off this addition (by her) of bars to her metaphorical life cage, firstly she went to see her friend on the weekend (the friend was sexually by her Dad, several long term relationships which she acrimoniously blew up, married, blew that up having an affair with current man who's very rich, has a couple of kids but has hired help to help her, in my view very BPD), she now feels she needs hired help like her friend. Also guessing she has spoken to her friend in the village who gets her older son to look after younger son so she can run in the mornings. Add both sets of data together and you get a new entitlement.

W will use this as a basis for increasing her victim status and reinforcing the "fact" that I am not meeting her NEEDS that she is ENTITLED to. However delusional and ignorant of 'them vs us' economic or practical situations.

She loves doing this.

[Red5]

Good morning Enabler,

I agree with Ltahoe, .W can use a treadmill.

A few bullet facts, as I am understanding... .
*its about what is "legal", .I am sure it is not within the law to leave kids (9 / 8 / 5) home alone.
*safety issues... .which in that lite makes it a "non-starter" to begin with.
*I agree with the entitlement comments, "keeping up with the girls" (Jones's)... .seems to be that you're W is being quite selfish.
*I think, that within the steep precipice of BPD & npd thinking... .in their mind, its all about them, you're W is actually asking you're permission to cast caution to the wind, and leave your little ones at home, while she goes out for a run a zero six thirty in the AM... .me, being a thinker, what if, God forbid, something was too happened to her while she was out on her run, then how much longer would little ones (9 / 8 / 5) be home alone.

I am not sure of you're current living arrangements, but I think you have told us that you commute in the very early hours of the morning, and that you are already gone at the time she asking to go for her run?

My first W was like this in her thinking, very selfish... .no adherence to caution,

I have come to understand that npd/BPD will try to "justify" at all costs to get what they perceive that they want... .in this case, leaving 9 / 8 / 5 home alone, .

Yes, offer to get her a tread mill... .not a popular alternative, but one that would work... .I am sure she would turn her nose up at it?

Red5

[Enabler]

I'm out the house somewhere between 5:15 and 6. Treadmill is a possibility (which like you say will be rejected, because she doesn't actually want a solution) and I'm currently mulling over the idea of whether to sound keen to come to a solution for her perceived problem, or to stay quiet and wait for more questions on the matter. The problem isn't real unless that is she actually needs this exercise to self medicate moods... .in which case the solution isn't actually exercise it's DBT therapy... .but I'll not be stepping on that grenade.

I think I answered my own question above. She doesn't actually want a solution to the problem, she wants to feel more of a victim, she wants to put more bars on her metaphorical cage. Helping her come to a solution on this problem will just mean she rolls onto the next 'problem'.

[Red5]

I'm out the house somewhere between 5:15 and 6. Treadmill is a possibility (which like you say will be rejected, because she doesn't actually want a solution)... .

The mischievous boy child in me... .ie' troublemaker might say to her... .well dear W, .I depart the pattern at zero six local for the train to work, so if you get up at say... .zero four forty five, stretch, turn on the coffee pot for me, .then go for your run, and then recover back here to home plate by say... .zero five fifty, so that you can pour my travel mug with hot coffee and give me a peck on the check before I go, .then I will allow you to go running ... .

A sandwich in a brown paper bag may a bridge too far though... . !

No Enabler, don't do that, .bad advice !... .just being humorously sarcastic here... .

In all seriousness Brother... .hang in there !

Red5

[Enabler]

Can we make it zero five forty five and get some over easy eggs done there as well?

Humour is good, humour is my life blood at the moment and fortunately my W is providing me with a lot of fodder with which to internally chuckle about. There reaches a point where all you can do is laugh at the absurdity of a comment or situation since it is so dang bizarre.

I might suggest that before she goes for her run at 4:30 she milk tears from the unicorn that's grazing on our front lawn so we can sell them on eBay.

[Red5]

Can we make it zero five forty five and get some over easy eggs done there as well?

Humour is good, humour is my life blood at the moment and fortunately my W is providing me with a lot of fodder with which to internally chuckle about. There reaches a point where all you can do is laugh at the absurdity of a comment or situation since it is so dang bizarre.

I might suggest that before she goes for her run at 4:30 she milk tears from the unicorn that's grazing on our front lawn so we can sell them on eBay.

I hear them unicorns is good eatin !

Never mind your run!... .now go and fetch my shootin iron woman !

Keep on laughing Enabler, its great for the soul ! 

Red5

[Ltahoe]

Will your wife eventually come to her senses? I know mine would. Ya she’d resent me later because she’d feel like I was right and she was wrong. When it was never about that, it was about being realistic. Idk why these things can’t just be problem solved over a discussion, has to be some mega argument where there’s going to be a winner and loser like someone’s keeping score(I’m not but I literally think she does). Really all it needs is a talkable solution, and any two normal human beings would figure that out with peace.

Sometimes I swear it’s not even about what it’s about, it’s some kind of test.  It’s also kind of BS they’re influenced by their friends so easy. I remember my wife’s friend started a business and was doing fairly successful to the point where she hired a personal assistant. So my wife wanted a personal assistant and it’s like seriously get a profitable business going that will cover that expense first. I’m not working to pay someone else. I said nicer though. Problem is my wife comes up with off the wall ideas and when I’m realistic about them she gets mad. Idk I’m accused of always having to be right, in fact her and her counselor say that I need help. Ok I admit I probably do need help for dealing with her crap for so long, not the reasons they think. Funny how she picked a counselor that pretty much cant see through her crap, and left the one that diagnosed her wth BPD and told her she needs to learn to be realistic. Anyways none of my arguments, which aren’t even supposed to be dang arguments just problem solving are about having to be right in her eyes. Idk maybe she feels that way cause eventually she sees the flaw in her own thinking when she comes to her senses, and realizes she was being unreal. So I wonder sometimes if these people create situations that are ridiculous just to get a rise or like you said validation, often times in my experience there’s no follow trough,  a disinterest in the initial idea a day later. some of this situations are like man idk what to do because I didn’t think anyone could come up with something so stupid. So am I being screwed with or is this serious.

I just find sometimes my best hopes are in a disagreement

1. Walking her through the scenario and brainstorming alternatives not necessarily saying no. Seeing if she can help come up with better alternatives.

2. Argue as little as possible if I already made her unrealistic and mad let her come to her senses. She usually does. It’s like she didn’t see reality i the moment but later it does set in.

[Notwendy]

When someone doesn't have their own sense of self, it is based on what they see other people doing. So, if she sees the mums running in the morning, she then wants to be like them a "mum running in the morning". It's a form of self validation that doesn't work because she still has a shaky self image. I understand the magical thinking "if I have this, I will be happy".

What is the deal with this OM? I know a serial womanizer. He doesn't care if the woman he is after is married or not. In fact, I think being married ups the challenge for him. When pursuing someone- she is the "love of his life:- the "everything he has been looking for woman" and they are "so much in love"   and he proposes to her. Once he gets her, he drops her. Is OM like this? Who goes after a married woman in this way? He doesn't sound like a stable person to me.

I wonder if, as long as she is "caged" she is inaccessible to him and that makes them both irresistible to each other. Somehow, I think that relationship would burn out fast for both of them. But this is just speculation and I know this is way more difficult from your end. What is the end point to this situation that you hope for? It seems that all of you are in a sort of limbo.

[Enabler]

Fair observation Notwendy, I am in limbo but I would like to call it an educated chess move. I’m not afraid of being single, in fact, the idea fills me with some level of excitement... .but, I also don’t fear working this sheeeeet storm throigh. How, I don’t know. It’s out of my control at the moment and I plan on keeping it that way. If I control any element of the process I can be duplicated as culpable and she can transfer blame. Yes, she will find some magical way of transferring blame anyway but there will be no evidence for it.

Situation with OM is that there is a formidable body of evidence that points towards a serious emotional relationship, and some soft evidence but not conclusive evidence of a sexual relationship. OM is pillar of the community type guy, on lots of committees and ever so important. He gives the ora of trying the help, to guide. Very sociable and well liked amongst community type people and very respectable. His second marriage is failing or should I say failed and it’s failure was somewhat a reason why him and W bonded under their mutual “entrapment”. OM is a very deep thinking type, or so he’d like to think. However his deep thinking seems to be more directed at creating an angle, rather than seeing information for what it is, he manipulates information/knowledge/evidence to “show” what his agenda wishes. So, for example biblical messages will be use to “show” that his relationship with my W is omnipotent. He will ignore basic information to “prove” that events were miracles and “evidence” that god wanted him and her to be together. He’s very tactical and seems to know when to push her and when to back off “there’s nothing more important than you and enabler sorting things out, nothing would make me happier” one minute and “why are you wasting time trying to find out about enablers mad theories during this important time (for us)” the next.

As much as I agree that their compatibility for a longer term relationship is almost non-existent, trying to intervein there has proven to be fruitless.

I’m currently getting ST, probably more bar chewing or just a poop in the corner of the cage!

Living the dream

Enabler

[Notwendy]

Enabler- it sounds like you are dealing with this well - leaving her to deal with this emotional sheetstorm of her own doing - not intervening - not fixing and yet not pushing in either direction. I know it has to be difficult being in this. Without you fixing - she may unravel and then she had to deal with her own unraveling.

I’m glad you are not afraid of the outcome in either direction. You have the confidence that you can handle whether your marriage endured this or not. You may not want a certain outcome but you know that her decision isn’t under your control. It’s often fear that drives us to enable and fix what is the other person’s responsibility to fix. Not being fearful keeps you out of this.

For OM- second marriage deteriorating tells you something about his stability. Without knowing enough to say this - he sounds like an NPD- all image - mirroring what others want to hear. Both he and your wife may be enamored by each other’s images.

You sound like you are sitting in the eye of the storm. There’s a lot to be said for being peaceful and not reactive while others are spinning their wheels.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Enabler,

If you do choose to sound keen to provide your W with a solution, this is a little off the wall, but I suggest showing your W this and similar articles by Mark Sisson about the superiority of strength and interval training to "chronic cardio":
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-case-against-cardio-part-27/
(I know your W is hardly an endurance athlete, but "why start down that path" could be your argument.)
For bonus concerned husband points offer to install her a pull-up bar in a doorway and find or buy some bodyweight circuit exercise instruction materials. (I hesitate to recommend getting her kettlebells or other heavy objects because BPD.) She can then do all this in the house and feel just like Sarah Connor exercising in her asylum cell at the start of Terminator 2. Plus if your W happened to get well into Paleo/Primal there would likely be many beneficial results. It might be worth a pop. If as Ltahoe says it might just be a test, it's a way to respond without appearing to deprive your W of a good thing. 

BetterLanes x

PS Unicorn steaks are definitely Paleo. You can do that too.

[Enabler]

I considered recommending HIT training to her, but then decided that she has a Concept 2 Rowing machine and a spin bike at her disposal on the top floor of our house plus she already does various exercise video's etc etc... .it's not about the exercise, it's very much about the cage. This cage concept is proving to be a fantastic framework with which to think about how she feels about her life. She's been obsessed with prisons for years so very much fits her train of thought.

I shall have my unicorn bleu pls!

[Notwendy]

The real cage is the victim perspective mindset and the cage is in their own minds, not because of someone else.

When the kids were little, my H felt "trapped". He wanted to pursue his hobbies in his time off from work. I didn't mind that but the kids and I wanted to have some time with him too. Rather than realize that we did want him to have some time to himself- and we wanted to see him for some time too- because we loved him, his response was " you won't let me do this" " I can't do this because of you". He couldn't see how much his family loved and missed him as he was focused on how "unfair" he believed it was that he didn't get to do his hobbies if he was with us.

I recall a coworker of mine who complained a lot that she worked harder than anyone else. Actually, the others did more since she was such a pain to ask to help out with anything extra. Still she was convinced that things were unfair to her.

What a sad "cage" to be in. I think it is best to not share the mindset and see the joys in our families, our jobs, and the people we care about and not validate the invalid.