Just Trying to Understand

[Depression = 72% of members]

Please forgive me if what I am about to ask is something I have asked about before.  I have read so much on this board, read books, watched videos, gobbled up everything imaginable in the way of BPD that my mind really feels just scrambled now instead of wiser.

My son's uBPD girlfriend is hardly ever home with my son or 2 children, schedules time to be at work (so she says at work) when her 4 year old daughter is ready to come home from visiting her father (daughter comes home at 6:00 p.m. on Sunday, she has to be at work at 5:30 p.m.) and there has been an attempt at, I guess modeling?  I say this with question marks because no one really knows what the purpose of these photographs are.  Most are taken by a professional photographer.  A half dozen or so were taken at the home of the man she said is her "friend" that she went on an out-of-country trip with back in April.  The photos were taken in his bedroom with her scantily dressed.  Go figure! 

She now is bringing the children around this "friend" of hers.  In fact the friend even bought some new boots for her daughter the other day, which the 4 year old proudly told me about while my son just stood there and said nothing. 

The photographs I speak of have gone from mild nudity (top only) to full frontal nudity with nothing left to the imagination!  Things seem to continue to escalate in the relationship with her.  The escalation in photos and what she is showing of herself, longer absences from the home, thus from her children as well as my son, openly speaking of this "friend" she went on the trip with in April... .

I think some of you have heard of this all before and again I'm sorry for repeating.  I am just besides myself and am wondering if this is considered "BPD behavior?"  Feeling crazy myself right now!

Angie

[Angie59]

Please forgive me if what I am about to ask is something I have asked about before.  I have read so much on this board, read books, watched videos, gobbled up everything imaginable in the way of BPD that my mind really feels just scrambled now instead of wiser.

My son's uBPD girlfriend is hardly ever home with my son or 2 children, schedules time to be at work (so she says at work) when her 4 year old daughter is ready to come home from visiting her father (daughter comes home at 6:00 p.m. on Sunday, she has to be at work at 5:30 p.m.) and there has been an attempt at, I guess modeling?  I say this with question marks because no one really knows what the purpose of these photographs are.  Most are taken by a professional photographer.  A half dozen or so were taken at the home of the man she said is her "friend" that she went on an out-of-country trip with back in April.  The photos were taken in his bedroom with her scantily dressed.  Go figure! 

She now is bringing the children around this "friend" of hers.  In fact the friend even bought some new boots for her daughter the other day, which the 4 year old proudly told me about while my son just stood there and said nothing. 

The photographs I speak of have gone from mild nudity (top only) to full frontal nudity with nothing left to the imagination!  Things seem to continue to escalate in the relationship with her.  The escalation in photos and what she is showing of herself, longer absences from the home, thus from her children as well as my son, openly speaking of this "friend" she went on the trip with in April... .

I think some of you have heard of this all before and again I'm sorry for repeating.  I am just besides myself and am wondering if this is considered "BPD behavior?"  Feeling crazy myself right now!

Angie

[Notwendy]

I wouldn't say that what she is doing exactly is typical of all pwBPD- but possible  behaviors include being impulsive, infidelity, substance abuse, poor boundaries, eating disorders and unstable relationships. This doesn't mean all pwBPD do all of these things or that they do it in the way your son's fiancee is doing it.

Whatever she is doing, it is because she wants to do it. You know it is up to your son to decide what he wants to do about the situation. The possible good thing about her escalating her behaviors and spending more time with this "friend" and the "friend" being more involved with the children is that, it is possible that your son will get to a point where he doesn't ignore it. Then he will have to face what she is doing one way or another.

Again, best for you to keep out of this. If you try to intervene, you will be the persecutor on the drama triangle. Let your son deal with what she is doing, if he chooses to.

With your GS being so young, he's going to be oblivious to his mother's nude photos. This isn't likely going to cause him trouble for now. Who knows where this is going, but again, your son is the one to deal with it- does he want to be married to someone who does this? It's his decision.

[Learning2Thrive]

  Angie,

I agree with Notwendy.

Have you considered that your participation in the drama upset (simply by engaging in it and/or being reactionary) keeps your son distracted and focused on your perceived persecution of his fiancée instead of focusing on her behavior? It gives her ammunition to use against him.

What would happen if you let go of your expectations and simply let him be responsible for his own choices and the resulting consequences? What if you lovingly reinforced your respect for his right to choose his own way and make his own mistakes? What would happen if you redirected your frustrations with his fiancée and instead focused on improving your own life experiences? We can’t make anyone else change, only ourselves.

Are you still thinking about taking the motor home trip you mentioned before? What are you doing to take care of you?

[Angie59]

Thank you NotWendy for your reply.  I do agree with much of what you have to say.  I just find the acceleration in her behavior and her actions is really bizarre.  I was just wondering if anyone else had ever experienced or heard of  this type of thing.

Thank you as well LearningtoThrive for your reply.  My husband, myself and my son's brother do not discuss my son's relationship with his girlfriend whatsoever with him.  Perhaps in past posts (at least a few months back or longer), there was some communication but not now.  We do not discuss his relationship, his children, or anything that goes on in that house.  We still babysit our grandson on Thursdays and Fridays at his house and because we are there, see things, hear things, etc., we are struggling so hard trying to make a decision whether that should come to an end as well, as things are there right in front of our eyes or the older granddaughter says things that are upsetting about what is going on.  We don't ask for this information to come to us - it's from merely being present there.

We have made some boundaries for ourselves.  Yes, we are talking about going out in our RV; in fact we have a 3 week trip planned in September-October we are looking forward to.  As finances allow, we will hopefully be planning more trips in the future.

We understand that this is all my son's decision.  She may leave him before he leaves her, so maybe the decision will be made for him.  We will be there to support him and be there for him if and when this happens.

 

[Learning2Thrive]

  Angie,

It sounds like you and your husband have made some good progress with setting and observing boundaries.

It’s impossible to know exactly why she is escalating her behaviors. It’s purely speculation but she might be trying to provoke you in order to get you to blow up again so she can reinforce her victim position on the triangle while forcing your son further into rescue position and further alienating him from you as the judgmental persecutor. As long as he remains alienated from friends and family, he is more vulnerable to manipulation and abuse behind closed doors.  I assure you that the level of frustration you are experiencing is nothing close to the level of anguish he is going through.

It’s good to hear you are moving forward with your RV trip. How exciting! And it will be a good break for you to perhaps gain clearer perspective.

Take good care of you, Angie.  

L2T

[Angie59]

Thank you LearningtoThrive!

Your idea about her escalating our anger towards her and making herself a victim is quite interesting.  We realize, however, that anything we do in the way of interfering or judging behavior in their household will really only draw the two of them closer together and make them see us as the bad guys.  The photos were only spoke of initially when we first saw them (and those were the mild ones), and my husband said something to my son since our GS2 brought the tablet to my husband to "fix" to get his show back on!  He merely made a face and said, ":)oes mom know?" 

So... .he obviously knows about them.  How he puts up with all of this, I will never know.  I never spoke to him about this at all. 

I know I could literally spend forever trying to figure out why she does what she does.  As a mother, it is so hard for me to see how she acts towards her children and the way she is so absent from them - both physically, emotionally, in all ways, really.  What is even harder to understand is my son putting up with it all.

I would tend to go with what you are saying regarding her doing these things to aggravate us and get us back on the drama triangle.  Makes perfect sense.  I have this feeling inside though that there is more to it.  Her "friend's" name has come up too often and her absences more and more.  She even mentions his name herself, like I have to go feed M's dogs, or I have to remember to fix M a plate, etc... . 

If this was a mutual friend of both of theirs or something, maybe it would be different, but it's as though she is cheating on my son with M and just saying it out loud as if my son and her are roommates.

When we set boundaries, we do not want to have to explain to him why and get into any of this.  I don't know what to say once the holidays arrive and we will not be going over there.  We have already decided no get-togethers at their house with her parents.  It is uncomfortable, tension-filled and we are worlds apart from them, so nothing in common. 

Do you have any ideas on how to make these boundaries without explanations?

[Learning2Thrive]

When we set boundaries, we do not want to have to explain to him why and get into any of this.  I don't know what to say once the holidays arrive and we will not be going over there.  We have already decided no get-togethers at their house with her parents.  It is uncomfortable, tension-filled and we are worlds apart from them, so nothing in common. 

Do you have any ideas on how to make these boundaries without explanations?

When I find myself struggling with setting a boundary while trying to reduce or avoid as much conflict as possible, I like to review this:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Perhaps proactively make a plan for what you will be doing well in advance and when you tell them, just be calm and matter of fact —do not JADE (Justify Argue Defend Explain) but keep it brief, informative and friendly.  For example, “Oh Son, before I forget, want to let you know that Dad and I are going to XYZ this year for the holidays. We’ve talked about doing this for years, so we’re really excited to finally be able to do it.”

Whatever you choose to do/say, it will help if you practice it ahead until it feels completely comfortable and relaxed.

[Angie59]

Thank you Learning2Thrive!  I appreciate it the link!

Angie

[Learning2Thrive]

  What is even harder to understand is my son putting up with it all.

Angie, I was reading through some information on codependency and enmeshment and found this. It might help explain your son and why he is putting up with it.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0

[Angie59]

Thanks again!

[Turkish]

How do you know about the photos,  did you son tell you?

I agree with the others that this is your son's issue to deal with, and I've said the same thing in your other threads, but exposing children to pornography is a sex crime.  What does your son think about this?

[Harri]

Actually it is only a sex crime or sexual abuse when they purposely expose their children to pornography.  In this case, as Angie has stated in several threads, the one or two pictures were found accidentally on a tablet.  It is hard to keep track of the details but they are there.  I went back to double check.  :)oes that sound correct with your memory Angie?

Angie, you son knows about the pictures and does not have a problem with it.  They are not purposely exposing the kids to the pictures.  He also knows about this male friend of his fiancees and does not seem to mind.  they may just be friends, it happens all the time.  Or they may have an open relationship.  Or a D/s one.  None of this is stuff he is likely to share with his parents and almost definitely not his mother.  

Trying to understand the fiancees behavior has not helped and seems, from where I write, to only fuel your pain and anxiety.  I think it would be more beneficial and much healthier for you to focus on you.  We've talked before about you learning where you end and begin in relation to others, specifically your son and his fiancee.  That involves you learning to not violate *their boundaries*.   How they keep the house.  How often the fiancee goes out and what she spends money on and how much she spends.  How they parent the kids.  That she has a male friend she spends time with.  That she has nude/racey photos taken of herself.  None of that is your business.  You can have an opinion, but your emotions and reactions are yours to own and manage.

We have also talked about you being a good example and a source of healthy validation for your grandkids.  The way you are handling things is not healthy for anyone and can cause even more of a rift than already exists.  

Do you want to have a relationship with your son and grandkids?  If yes, you need to change the way you are interacting with them and thinking about things.  Your dislike for your sons fiancee is so intense there is no way it is not obvious to the both of them.  As uncomfortable as you feel around them they probably feel the same way around you.  Something has to give and as the healthy one, it is going to have to be you and your husband.

Angie, I want nothing more for you than a healthy and happy relationship with your son.  As it stands, that is not possible right now but it can happen in the future with work and dedication.  

I know you have done a lot of reading but have you actually practiced the communication tools with your husband, older son, friends etc?  Reading an article even a few times is not going to help.  You have to practice and use the techniques consciously for them to work.  It takes time but it does work.    The tools will not work when you are feeling this upset with anxiety driving your thoughts actions and words.  You have to force yourself to think in terms of where you end and begin.  

hang in there Angie.  it can get better.  I have to applaud you for sticking with it and continuing to try.  But try to focus on what you can change at your end.  I think you have a lot to offer your son and your grandkids and want nothing more for you than to be able to share that with them.

Take care.

[Notwendy]

When we set boundaries, we do not want to have to explain to him why and get into any of this.  I don't know what to say once the holidays arrive and we will not be going over there.  We have already decided no get-togethers at their house with her parents.  It is uncomfortable, tension-filled and we are worlds apart from them, so nothing in common.  

Do you have any ideas on how to make these boundaries without explanations?

I would suggest not explaining. An explanation is likely to become drama- right on the drama triangle. On the relationship board, there is an acronym. "JADE" . Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain.  This is not effective.

Boundaries are about you, not them. They can be just action. Make other plans. I like the idea of you and your H taking that RV trip. If you are invited for the holidays ( who knows, you may or may not be) or any other occasion you don't want to attend, simply reply as if someone else invited you somewhere and you could not attend.

"Thank you for the invitation. This year, H and I planned to go out of town for the holidays. I hope you have a great time".

That's all.

One of my boundaries as an adult was not to stay at my parents' house. It was too stressful due to the way they treated me. I didn't explain why. I just got a place to stay near their house. I'm sure they wondered, but didn't really ask. If  they did, I would just say something like " I like visiting you, but I also like my own space" I don't see how any explanation for not spending time or staying with family could go well, so just do it, be pleasant and act on your boundary.

I agree with Harri. Your son knows what is going on. He knows about the nude pictures. A son is not going to discuss his sex life with his mother. I do understand your wanting to understand but the more you can put your energy and focus on to your life and your plans, the better for all of you.

[CollectedChaos]

Hi Angie 

It seems as though you are waiting for your son's fiance to change, and are confused as to why she isn't.  It is unlikely that she will ever change, and I think it's important for you to really see that for what it is and accept it.  She is never going to suddenly realize that she is doing things that are not liked by others and stop doing them.

As far as the photos go, I agree with the others who have replied to you.  Your son knows about the photos and is okay with them.  For all you know, she may have had them taken for him specifically.  There are things called boudoir photo shoots that are exactly that - women dress sexy for a photo shoot, and the photos are a gift for their SO.  While these may not be that, you don't have evidence that they aren't either and ruminating on the background of why and where the photos were taken is not healthy.  His sex life is not something he would (or should) discuss with you, and if he knew you saw those photos he would likely be rather embarrassed by that.  It doesn't matter what their intimate relationship is like - that is between the two of them and it's not appropriate for you to react to it, regardless of your opinion.  There are plenty of people in the world who likely do things in their relationships that you or I wouldn't agree with, but they are happy and it's their life.  It's not for us to judge what is happy, or what is correct.  I think the only thing you can do is do your best to let this go.

When setting a boundary, you don't need to give an explanation at all.  You can simply let them know that you have made other plans for the holidays.  It will likely feel unnatural at first to set a boundary without an explanation, but it will become more natural with practice.  Just remember that boundaries are for your benefit and not to attempt to change another's behavior.  If you set the boundary with the expectation that the relationship will change for the better because of it, you will be disappointed. 

I think it's great you and your H are going on a trip - I hope you two enjoy yourselves and are able to relax and decompress

[Angie59]

Thank all of you for your input.  I appreciate each and every one of you who took the time to reply.

I really am not expecting change from my son's uBPD girlfriend.  I believe it is knowing who she is now and the way I see it effect my son and grandson, as a mother, hurts my heart.  Whenever she decides to throw him a few crumbs and be with him, it is just to go out to eat or shop.  He sounds like a little kid ready for Santa to walk in the door when he tells me what they have planned.  It hurts me, because I know the man he is and the father he is being to his children, and he deserves so, so much better.  I'm not quite sure anyone out there would deserve to be treated this way.

So, in view of what everyone had to say, I agree and accept the fact that no, his sex life is not in any way my business and I never intended to make it so.  The photos came about because they are on the same device the children are allowed to use.  My grandson handed the tablet to my husband one day and asked him to fix it.  That's is how those were known to us.

Again, not my business what is done in the bedroom - I really don't want to know!  It's not just that one thing though.  It is her absence in the home (excessive), talking freely about her so-called friend, knowing that she is cheating on my son - it is the complete opposite picture of a household than what he was raised in and I do believe he knows deep down that something isn't right.  I feel that in my heart of hearts. 

Much of this information comes to my husband and I simply by being in the house for the babysitting.  If we could watch our grandson at our home, I think a lot of this on my part would become less and less.  However, they have said no to this.  So the decision is, do we avoid the house completely and quit seeing our grandson on those two days (which could eventually lead to not seeing him hardly at all), or do we keep putting up with it all and do it for our grandson. 

I don't think any grandparent should have to be in a situation to have to make this decision, but here we are.