1stTimer: Redux (new information) and Trying to Detatch not sure how

[1stTimer]

Likely many of you are familiar with the ‘1stTimer’ story. I am still awaiting (hopelessly I am starting to gather) her promised call to meet in response to my Grand Gesture (the letter I posted here 3 weeks back)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326317.msg12978248#msg12978248

which was essentially an offer to reconnect with fresh hearts.

I’m really trying to find a way to detach from this to tell the truth but I’m finding it quite hard. One thing I didn’t have when I first posted this was our communication between the time I asked her, at her request, to be my girlfriend and how that turned into some strange gauntlet I had to pass through to make it ‘Official’.

I’m including that now in the end of the story to both put my hurt/confusion and inability to let go in context and perspective and to clarify some the misconceptions that I simply asked her for a relationship too late and got mad when she said no. My point all along has been that she almost manically pushed me to commit, would not let me retreat and only then did she pull the plug AND that my asking for a relationship wasn’t just me deciding to do so and too late at that. For whatever it is worth and whoever cares, food for thought as ‘we’ wait on her call that will never happen:

All this happened a couple weeks sfter she sat me down and said we needed to discuss my plan to move to California where I had been very happy and get away from NYC where I had ten+ years of really bad memories (dying father, etc) I wanted to get away from and start fresh. I told her this is the exact conversation I do not want to have and am not ready for, that even if we got engaged that would be a major decision and sacrifice to ask me for.

She said later this was the point she stopped pursuing me, clearly as you can see below it is when she decided either to a) push me hard into the relationship she wanted or b) get revenge on me.  Just a sample of things she did over the next few weeks before this all exploded in my face:
•   Gave me a set of keys to her apartment said she wanted me to work out of there, come and go as I please, didn’t want to consider it ‘hers’ but ‘ours’.

•   The great 8-hour day of lovemaking that she called the best sex since she was in her 20s, had her walking around like she was on valium, and where we shared a sex toy she’d had for two years but never felt comfortable using herself or with anyone else. Not bragging at all as much as saying we had what “even as a man” I’d consider a very connecting, compatible sexual experience where we shared intimacies neither of us had before.

•   She took me in her bedroom to show me she’d cleared out the top two drawers in her bureau and wanted me to start leaving my clothes/etc behind to start moving in.

•   Got mad at me after offering to take her to the emergency room at night for not coming the next day to pick her up.

•   Told me when I was inside her she was falling in love with me.

•   Told me when our time got caught short playing with new toys I bought that ‘don’t worry we have our whole lives together to figure it out’.

•   Wanted me to start staying over because she wanted to wake up in my arms.
In other words to me at least, having been in multiple long term committed relationships and having lived with two different women, we are now in a pretty serious relationship AND the girl herself is the one who is pushing it (hard). She also said on the same day ‘You are going to ask me to be your girlfriend officially by the end of this month you just don’t know it”.

She pulled a jealousy gambit on me implying she’d slept with someone else days after the apparently important day we did, in the apt she gave me keys to in the bedroom she gave me drawers in with the toy that apparantely had been so special with her to use for the first time ever with me. Told me she was going on a date with some guy (“because you said you don’t want a relationship”) and the most disturbing of all “I don’t really want to because I know I would cheat on him I’d never cheat on you”.  When this worked only to push me, she chased me down and told me she might have not meant everything she said but had wanted to get me jealous so I’d get we should have a relationship and I was one of the most important people in her life.

She said because of her past she did not consider herself to be in a committed relationship unless the guy asked her to be in one.  I considered this to be specious since whether I asked or not I didn’t really know any woman who’d finally make love to the man she wanted to be in a relationship with for months, give him her apartment keys, make space in her bedroom drawers, and invite another man up to the same apartment and bedroom the next day simply because they hadn’t had ‘the talk’ yet. However since I couldn’t argue the fact I had resisted being in a ‘relationship’ that I could not well object and that I’d made assumptions I should not have.

So I say ‘ok I understand that. I want this to be a real committed relationship”. She says “Really?” happily. I say ‘Yes, will you be my girlfriend?” She says “Really?” even more happily. I say “Jane Doe, will you be my one and only?” She jumps in my arms and kisses me and says yes yes yes. I say “Let’s start over. Friday I will take you out to a great restaurant for our first real date as a couple, I’ll even ask you to be my girlfriend again over a bottle of wine”. She is ecstatic.

Next day she texts ‘can you meet for lunch I have some things I want to talk about”. I’m sure she means she changed her mind for some reason. We meet and she simply wants to confirm that I asked what she thought I asked and that I WILL ask Friday ‘officially’. I tell her yes to both and she tells me how happy she was when she woke up, that so many people are going to want to meet me since I’m the first serious boyfriend she has had in 11 years and that I need to start coming to family events.

The conversation below is where this whole thing goes off the rails for me. You can I’m quite reactive, yet I’m already spun around by her ‘dalliance’ and by her “I know I’d cheat on him if I dated him” revelation as they speak to an entirely different morality, fidelity, even promiscuity than mine or of any woman I’ve ever been with.

I don’t know where or how the Friday date took on such talismanic proportions for her but it definitely changed from casually being our first real date after our having ‘the conversation’ on Monday to some mythically important date in her life. I missed something big clearly. My sister has a theory that she ‘meant’ I was supposed to in fact get I was supposed to propose to her.

So here is the conversation, she is texting me from a bar I’ve just found out she frequents alone, a few blocks from where I am and I live.

TEXT MESSAGE EXCHANGE

am interested in how Friday will go? Are you looking forward to it ... ?

Why "interested in how it will go"?  It isn't an interview it is a date. You sound apprehensive.


I’m not apprehensive. This is all new to me/ how your treating me. We can talk Friday

I want to double dAte. I’m surprised you talk about me with friend... taking it in.

 We-ll I have before but now since you are my girlfriend I have to, it is the law

You still have to ask me to be your gf...  

 
Uh no, I did that already. Three times. You said yes. Three times. And asked me to confirm I asked the next day. Or are we not committed yet in your mind?

I thought you were going to officially ask Friday. ... ? ( thats what I would like . An official question with an answer).  And I thought u knew this/ hence talking about it for reassurance over coffee yesterday. What did I miss ?

Knew what? that despite everything I said that we are not officially committed until I officially ask on Friday is that your point? I tell you how I felt and what I wanted and I said Friday we will start from scratch I will ask you again over a bottle of wine .But clearly since you feel it was not an "official question with an official answer that's not where we are And I believe we think very differently as I believe before words monogamy and commitment live in your heart

It does live in my heart. I need verbal confirmation hence Friday for it to be certain for me. Do you understand ?
 
No I dont know what we are talking about nor do I like it. I verbalized. Clearly. And verbalized several times that Friday I wanted to start over and ask again. That is "all". If you are not or have not been my gf in your heart and mind and won't be until Friday until 'the words' something is wrong. Whatever we do and say Friday won't make it trust or commitment. What I do and say and don't do and don't say do. I dont know where this will end but since I am one of the few men that take all this seriously then take more than the *words* seriously. Or i won't give it otherwise. I trust and am not jealous because I date people I trust. Who can trust me...

It’s taking me a moment to grasp everything. You went from not wanting to communicate to wanting to be with me. One extreme to the next. Please be more understanding.

I like this new you / the attention and communication very much but I don’t like when your not nice hence your last email. Make sense ?  If you decide to officially ask me then it will be more real to me. If you don’t see a need to apologize for your last email that will be bothersome. Feel free to call me.

 
If you found my email "not nice" I am sorry it was not meant to not be nice. Nothing in it is trying to be "not nice" in my mind. It is, as with my other texts, someone who is hurt but it only seems to register with you based on what you need. So accept my apology please and try to read it again with me in mind ok?  I'm here too. Can you read nothing in those about my concerns, hurts, needs? We talked about how those other texts hurt you and I sincerely apologized for how I handled them but never really about what concerned me or hurt me.

I shall repeat: I did officially ask you. I said "I want to be in a committed monogamous relationship with you" since those are the words you want to hear AND I took your hands and looked you in the eyes and said “Jane Doe will you be my one and only". I am sure I did since you put your hands over your face and cried and we kissed. I then said I'd like to take you out to a real date to start off right and I'd ask again over a bottle of wine. I'm unclear why you've needed to and need to keep acting as if that didn't happen and we are not in fact IN that place until I ask again. You met me the next day simply to confirm that Friday I'd ask you and I confirmed that, again, I'd asked you already and would again but somehow it is not 'real' until Friday.  You think the words make it real and I get it; I said them and meant them. You sent me multiple texts from your wine bar making it clear you do not consider us to be committed/together or to be my gf yet and It concerns me. A lot of what has happened concerns me, and I decided to put it behind me/us and to make a fresh start as a couple. I got what hurt you and apologized and I get what you needed and gave it to you. If you don't get why last night would be confusing or hurtful to me given everything then I don't know what to say either. You are not the only person who needs reassurance. Saturday was not supposed to be just about what you needed to hear. It was supposed to be about us and that means me as well... .If any of this resonates and you want to talk then we can talk. If it just pisses you off then we are making the wrong decision and headed for disaster and should call it off. I'll let you decide

I understand where your coming from. Sorry on my part. Im obviously still processing you asking me to be your one and only. I do consider you which is why I’m able to forgive and look past those texts and emails. Also: I can’t drink more than 1.5 glasses or my memory gets blurry...  from here on I’m going to try not to go over 1 glass during the week if that. Something I’m working on. Hence asking again Friday would mean a lot to me.

[SO I GO TO HER HOUSE TO TALK THIS ALL OUT AGAIN WHICH ENDS WITH HER TEXTING ME WHILE I AM STANDING THERE

Of course we’re committed and I can’t wait for Friday when you ask me again... .XX

Most of you know the rest of the story; I treat the date as important and special as I can. I pick her up by Uber get out and pick her up in the lobby, escort her to the car, open the door, help her in, she is flabbergasted by all of this. When we get our wine she says “Before you ask me whatever you are going to ask me” (Still no idea what that means, am I missing something?) “I want to make sure we forget that I ever said to you before that I wanted a relationship”.  Which flips my lid since our entire relationship is about her asking for a relationship. I get up and say “Look forget this, you keep shooting us in the foot whenever we get close, I don’t know why, but I don’t like it”. She pulls me down and says “Listen. Do not talk. Listen. I am just scared. I am TERRIFIED”. I tell her “Look we aren’t getting married. We are not moving in. We are just agreeing that we both want a committed relationship and to see what we have when both are hearts are open and committed”. She says ok, I say ok, I say “Here’s to new beginnings”.

We go back to her place, make love, she falls asleep in my arms like she wanted while I kiss her cheeks like she wanted., she wakes up in my arms to my stroking her hair like she wanted. We spend a day in bed and on the couch so it is heaven. She starts future bombing: “I am going to replace my bed with a King Size bed so we can sleep comfortably together” and “This apartment is too small for two people, we’d need to consider where we would move when we are ready to move in together”, spends all day trying to pick Pet Names and says “Saturday Nights needs to be our official date night to discover each other” and “We need to discuss roles, you did say you want to be provider/protector?” and “I think I want to keep my job” and shows me her entire family album going over each member etc. I’ve finally lowered my guard and given in to everything she has asked for since I knew her pretty much.

As you all know the next day she sat me down as if nothing above happened, said “You are a great guy I just am not ready for a committed relationship with you”, pretended she did nothing wrong and I just ‘misunderstood’ and ‘saw things differently’, so I stormed out. Fully expecting to hear from her in a day or a week when she realized she’d just cut-and-run and hurt me terribly in the process. Except for her few replies to my reach outs, she simply never contacted me again as if I were a piece of tissue she’d cleaned her nose with after she got all of the commitments she wanted. Each time she reached out to meet me and each time when I replied she backed off/disappeared.

I wrote those letters assuming she was in fact a woman who really cared for me and wanted a committed relationship with me more than anything and then got scared and ran and likely in part because she was not convinced of my feelings for her.

The only solace I can take out of the letters I wish I had not sent and which she decidedly did not deserve is really this; I got to maintain who I was and how I love. If the letters went into a dark hole of a soul, if she laughs at the ‘weakness’ or threw it in the trash because it didn’t touch her, does it matter to me? I affirmed who I was, that I could put aside my own pain and anger and confusion to try to comfort and love and acknowledge someone I cared about. That is not weakness. That is me and who I’m taking to my next relationships and as I told her in my first letter, whatever else happened she did open my heart which had been closed for years to that. So I’ll hope my letter finds it way to whatever part of her is the woman

[Cat Familiar]

Well, I'm with you. Her response and subsequent behavior is truly a mystery. There's a similar story happening from allbymyself7 on the Detaching Board.

Perhaps you can pop in there and share a bit of what's happened with you.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327101.0;all

[1stTimer]

Well, I'm with you. Her response and subsequent behavior is truly a mystery. There's a similar story happening from allbymyself7 on the Detaching Board.

Perhaps you can pop in there and share a bit of what's happened with you.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327101.0;all

Hey Cat I did just that. Hope it helps him. I wonder if they have some BPD board where they LEARN to mess with us like they do, the approaches seem remarkably similar.

I actually read on Quora other day from a person who dated a narcissist that she said to him "You are the only man I've ever met I'd never cheat on" which is remarkably similar to (but far worse than) when she told me about a date she was planning on going on in order to make me jealous "But I know I'd cheat on him if I dated or married him, I'd never cheat on you the sex is good and I like you so much and you are so handsome". I wonder why any woman would think that would be a turn on, that comment pretty much poisoned the rest of my interactions with her.

[Skip]

I might suggest that you ask yourself if detaching is really the sensible thing to do right now. I know you are feeling vulnerable. This was the risk of "throwing a Hail Mary" and saying you cared enough that you would wait until she was ready. The question is, do you want to concede defeat before the "play" has failed or the game is over.

Detaching, or grieving the relationship, will put you in a mind set that if she does contact you, you will not be in the frame of mind to make the mental shifts your need to make to advance the relationship. Some people think that they can insulate their vulnerability by detaching when they are also working to reconnect - the two forces aren't compatible. One can't learn to play the violin and learn to get violins and violin music out of their heart at the same time. If they try, they accomplish neither.

We have had members try this. Their love interest reaches out, and they bite their hand.

Like many things in life, you have to make a commitment to succeed. In this case, its a commitment to go forward (and examine your options) or its a commitment to fold and detach.

Make sense?  

[Cat Familiar]

"But I know I'd cheat on him if I dated or married him, I'd never cheat on you the sex is good and I like you so much and you are so handsome". I wonder why any woman would think that would be a turn on, that comment pretty much poisoned the rest of my interactions with her.

So having heard this and thinking about how that comment poisoned your feelings about her, what do you suppose keeps you still emotionally attached to her?

[1stTimer]

Thanks for reaching out Skip. I get your point I really do.

I do get I said I'd wait until she was ready and might be more open to that if she'd either not reached out or just reached out and said "Thank you for the beautiful letter, it means so much to me. I'm not ready to reach out yet. Thank you for giving me the space to do so if and when I feel ready. Yes my thoughts are with you". Or some such. But the way she not only protected herself but put my butt on the line 'waiting' for her (she did say 'Perhaps his week?' and not reaching out to qualify seems cruel and selfish and in keeping with how she left w/o a concern for my feelings. Just a friggin bone man I'd be happy.

I do get I introduced a whole level of pressure above leaving it off at 'no worries, reach out when you want/can I am here' when she reached out to meet. Again I needed to make sure she had 'all the data' vs just returning to what she left. But yeah I get it becomes a whole other meeting to step into for he now. Might be why she needs to reach out when she feels totally ready (as my sister said it seems like she might be on medication and need to feel in the right place before she reaches out).

One reason I consider detach is for that exact reason; so if she reaches out I can deal with her as BPD and NC and protect myself. Not from being rejected but worse from being ACCEPTED by a woman who might be really damaged. All things aside she has not treated me or my feelings with much regard at all since she walked away without a word and has made sure to not give a thing back (except her imromptu texts reaching out). That worries me from a partner, BPD or not.

I guess I can stay conflicted for awhile but at some point I'll either naturally detach/move-on (as in weeks) or to 'Betterment" and make some other gesture. Betterment seems unlikely as I feel I have done everything I can to make her feel safe, understood and not feeling like she would be walking into anger, recrimination or even explanation. I'll let her sit with it for awhile, I'd appreciate honestly as I said a bone "Sorry I am still processing. I haven't forgotten". But again yeah I get that was a whole big enchilada to throw on a girl who may have run from BOTH fear of commitement and insecurity about my actual feelings.

I'll stick here for awhile and leave detatch out of my thoughts until and if it just naturally progresses to that as clearly it would after enough time.

I might suggest that you ask yourself if detaching is really the sensible thing to do right now. I know you are feeling vulnerable. This was the risk of "throwing a Hail Mary" and saying you cared enough that you would wait until she was ready. The question is, do you want to concede defeat before the "play" has failed or the game is over.

Detaching, or grieving the relationship, will put you in a mind set that if she does contact you, you will not be in the frame of mind to make the mental shifts your need to make to advance the relationship. Some people think that they can insulate their vulnerability by detaching when they are also working to reconnect - the two forces aren't compatible. One can't learn to play the violin and learn to get violins and violin music out of their heart at the same time. If they try, they accomplish neither.

We have had members try this. Their love interest reaches out, and they bite their hand.

Like many things in life, you have to make a commitment to succeed. In this case, its a commitment to go forward (and examine your options) or its a commitment to fold and detach.

Make sense?  

[1stTimer]

So having heard this and thinking about how that comment poisoned your feelings about her, what do you suppose keeps you still emotionally attached to her?

Man Cat if I could answer that... .

One thing is I naturally give people the benefit of the doubt and (to my detriment) believe they are honest, moral, have integrity, etc. Everything she does and says is at such odds, one reason I liked her is everything ELSE she said about sex, dating, intimacy was fully aligned with my own standards/viewpoints. It is one of the main reasons in fact I finally decided to be with her. At the wine bar I frequent for dinner most nights there is no shortage of women one can sleep with if chose and I chose not to, I like a certain kind of woman (one like me but prettier). One reason her comment DID spin me around so much.

If it were just some girl at the bar who said that (or any of the 1000 similar conversations I heard) it would not have bothered me. I LIKED this girl because she seemed 180 degrees different.

Other than that if I could pinpoint why I'm still connected I'd be very happy. On the other hand, despite her push/pull and apparent coolness of her replies, she seems herself to still be connected. 3 Months after a 4 month 'casual' relationship where we made love once.

[1stTimer]

Like many things in life, you have to make a commitment to succeed. In this case, its a commitment to go forward (and examine your options) or its a commitment to fold and detach.

Here is the part I never get about what you say so looking for clarity. Wouldn't one committ to succeed only under certain circumstances? I mean I read countless stories here on BPDs who already had someone, someones, never looked back, even were spiteful. So as I've seen my 'play' here it is basically; probing to see if this woman was the woman I thought she was (albiet damaged, scared, hurt) and to move towards meeting and slowly towards reconciliation if she were. Committed to that. On the other hand if indications are this was truly pwBPD and she did classic BPD sideline guy who she jumped to and then left me with my butt in the wind not caring, then what would I commit to that for? That just means I am giving her the chance to hurt me again.

So one reason I post as I did today is to try to get some clarity/insight into what the answer might be and decide whether it makes MORE sense to detach. On the BPD side I have the way she love bombed, the way she cut and ran and discarded, the way she has reached out and run away in a mirror image of the relationship, and one might say a blatant disregard for my feelings as a human being she liked/loved. I don't have so much on the woman I liked other than examining my own feelings and reaching out with whatever I can to make her feel better/appreciated/etc.

She has never reached out to give me solace, comfort, closure, never replied in such a way that is meant to do anything but protect herself and stay in control, and right now left me hanging for three weeks after asking me if I could be available at the drop of a hat for the hours she finds she can escape (which almost seems literal at this point) to which I said yes which requires some respect back at me if she WERE that type of woman.  She says "I am open to talk truthfully" and while I can spin that to mean "Truthfully, I am open to talking" or even "If you are going to speak like you did in that letter I am open to it" but the most likely interpretation is I have true things to say that you won't like that don't fit in with the offer you made. It is less being 'scared' of what those are then simply giving a damaged BPD woman which she more and more appears to be an open invitation to do so when her meds or abusive bf or therapist unleash the hounds of war.

That is really where the post today came from (besides the letters I found which were disturbing); that evidence more and more points to not nice BPD woman who does not have my best wishes or interest at heart that I may need to consider detatching from (assuming she ever IS going to reach out). I would say by now it is highly unlikely that she did not move into and is not IN a serious relationship now, one that makes her both unable and unwilling to reach out to me. So just asking: why would I not want to consider detach vs committing to a course of conflict/betterment just to stay the course?

[Skip]

So just asking: why would I not want to consider detach vs committing to a course of conflict/betterment just to stay the course?

I think you should weight the those two alternatives and even a third alternative of trying to do both at the same time.

I think the text exchange is really helpful and it makes it reasonably clear what was going on between the two of you.

It might be helpful to do a postmortem and ask members what they see from her side, what they see from your side, and what they of it all as it relates to what went wrong.

[1stTimer]

I think you should weight the those two alternatives and even a third alternative of trying to do both at the same time.

I think the text exchange is really helpful and it makes it very clear what was going on between the two of you.

It might be helpful to ask members what they see from her side, what they see from your side, and what they of it all as it relates to what went wrong.

Wait I thought you said I could not do both at the same time (violins and all). I asked many non-member e.g. friends, family, women, men. All find her behavior bizarre, disturbed, immature, toxic w/o fail. Even my bro-in-law who loves being devil's advocate. They find that exchange and her text replies since I reached out highly disturbing.

I can ask members but I think it is less about who says what then that the exchange happened at all. It is the fact that a simple discussion (hey let's call this what it is) which many people didn't need to have in the first palce and we did, 3 times in one day no less with no uncertainty about what i said and a trip by her the next day to confirm I said what I said then became this insane push/need for an offiicial request w/o which she would not 'feel secure'. I wasn't asking for her to marry me, go to the prom, move in with me, have kids. Just agree that what we had, and especially the things she had pushed for meant what she wanted it to mean; that we were in fact in a relationship. I think 'I want a committed relationship" followed by yes followed by 'be my girlfriend" followed by YES! followed by 'be my one and only" followed by YES followed by lets start off with a real first date as a couple followed by YES followed by her coming uptown to confirm AGAIN to which I said yes followed by her telling me how happy she was and her whole family qualifies as us agreeing we were in fact in the very relationship she wanted so much.

So for me who said what is sort of immaterial; the exchange itself is weird beyond belief and my replies to her are based on my being that weirded out by them especially in context to her 'don't consider myself to be in a committed relationship unless guy asks' which she used to justify fooling around with some guy in a situation no women I ever knew would.

Am I over-reactive? Sure. What she is doing and saying is weird. And I had every right to have my spider-sense tingling. She had some perverse need to have that dinner mean ... .something... .and to make damn sure it happened.

Honestly Skip if she had come uptown the next day after I asked the first time and she said yes and said look I thought about it maybe we should not do this I think I've moved on I would not be here or be crushed. I gave he ample opportunity to back out and even said 'if there is someone else or you need to get something out of your system then let's not do this, don't make me ask in that case. I want to ask but only if that is where you are at and if it is what you want'.

So not sure how pulling apart the exchange helps it is the exchange that is the problem. Is she angling for marriage (at dinner she says 'Before you aske whatever it is you are going to ask'? Is she trying to make me fail and back off? Is she trying to prove I really REALLY mean it by jumping through the hoops and taking her to a nice dinner and asking right? I did a total gentleman special dinner and asked.

It is that week and that gauntlet and the future bomb that really is what threw me for such a loop. Honestly if the week she said she 'dabbled' with the guy and was going in the date if she had said 'look I've moved past wanting to be with you' vs 'I just said this to get you jealous it is you I want a relationship with' I wouldn't be here either. It is this insane push and the subsequent future bomb and then poof! out of my life that spun me into the ground. In other words she either wasn't going to let me go until she made sure she got me to commit my entire self to her intentionally or left in fear once she got it. If she had wanted to move on either alone or with someone else she had ample opportunity to do so without malice or harm to either of us yet she chose to go nuclear on getting my full and utter commitment. Why?

[1stTimer]

It might be helpful to do a postmortem and ask members what they see from her side, what they see from your side, and what they of it all as it relates to what went wrong.

I think she was buying time. And I'll tell you the only story that makes any sense not that this ever would or need to since she is clearly off her rocker in many ways.

Day of our first day together (after commit dinner) she tells me she saw ex in the street (the abusive dom her friends said dont ever tell us if you go back to him, destroyed her emotionally, made her call him Mister and Sir, wouldn't let her talk to other men, monitored her email, in other words The Perfect Man :| ) and was crushed. I was surprised since I thought he was some fling, she said no she had real feelings for him and was going to cancel our dinner (our OFFICIAL DINNER!) because she was so crushed. Then she get my super sweet (in other words, the worst kind of man) email about dinner and decided to go

That dinner was when she got weird, manic, distant.

While she was in my arms at some point she pulled back, looked at me and sais 'Oh! So now you're the one who... .never mind'. I pushed and she said 'Nothing, God puts everyone in our life for a reason'. I'll have to guess in retrospect she 'realized' she was going to him and I somehow helped her realize that (I mean why stay with the guy who when you show your admiteddly not nice hands to and say 'name one thing you like' says 'they are connected to you'?).

And I think her future bomb was her desparately trying to hold on to that future us she saw she knew was not happening.

This would explain fully why the very next day (why not a week, a month?) she blew us apart and never looked back.

Just a theory but it also explaines the generic 'thanks for the nice note' since he controls her communications and her 'can't make firm plans' and even her 'can I reach out an hour before I think I may be able to make it'. Each person who read those thought it sounded like her time was not under her control (one person said controllng bf, one said under Doctors care)

Not that this helps at all, just a theory. Except now when he implodes on her again and turns into an abusive monster, she'll have the stupid sweet little prince to turn to. Argh. See why I consider detach?

[1stTimer]

It might be helpful to do a postmortem and ask members what they see from her side, what they see from your side, and what they of it all as it relates to what went wrong.

Also the weirdness of the whole Official Girlfriend Request aside I believe it shows I did not trust her very views on fidelity and she did not trust my feelings for her. She says that in a number of ways "this is all new to me" "I'm surprised you talk to your friends about me" "I like the new way you are treating me" etc. Doesn't explain the official ask which is still weird as crap, yet that whole line of thought is where my Grand Gesture came from.

[1stTimer]

Well, I'm with you. Her response and subsequent behavior is truly a mystery. There's a similar story happening from allbymyself7 on the Detaching Board.

Perhaps you can pop in there and share a bit of what's happened with you.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327101.0;all

I have to say Cat, as I read that thread and the various replies to it my story seems to be almost classic BPD. I'd say from reading those the mystery is a lot less mysterious; odds are extremely high she had another guy going the exact same time, maybe more than one. All of her behavior is consistent with it; the love bomb,  the weird fidelity comments that are IMHO way off from 'normal' people, the entire future bomb, the immediate cut and run and the utter discard, even the strange detached replies that all kept/keep me stringing along. Not sure how this does not qualify in fact as Textbook BPD.  Again the very reason I think Detach is the best, when she reaches out and she will I don't see what I have to gain. The longer I hold on to the 'scared woman who found true love and ran' and do the Little Prince number on her the more damage I am begging for. Not sure what about her behavior as warranted believing she may still be that woman, the only indication of that woman is in the date/dinner I treated her like Cinderalla on and the two love letters I wrote her. Maybe a glimpse of her in the two happy texts she sent me but then right back to BPD.

Either that week of 'but I need to hear it officially' was her struggling with herself to have/want it or her just having an enormous amount of fun yanking a guy who'd spent 18 months resisting her charms under the surf.

[Skip]

Grand gestures are not always easy to respond to because the situation is highly loaded. If someone is conflicted it requires them to resolve the conflict before responding and sometimes that cripples them. If there were communications problems at the end, the remaining taste of those can also stifle action. If their love life was in transition... .  If they are worried about you triggering... .etc.

There are a 100 scenarios that are just as likely as the one you propose. Some good and some bad, but its more reliable to seek direct communications than to try and interpret FaceBook photos and silence. Lots of thing could cause either.

It seems like you both are wounded/rebuilding, place very high expectations on one another, and get very hurt when they aren't met.

As for going to Detaching... .are you two just not compatible, do you simply not see life the same way? You say that a lot. Is it time to just cut bait and move on?

As for going to Bettering... .did you ever think of just making a "non-grand" gesture? Make a coffee break date and bring her a danish and chat in the corridor for 5 minutes? Get a read on what is going on?

I have to say Cat, as I read that thread and the various replies to it my story seems to be almost classic BPD. I'd say from reading those the mystery is a lot less mysterious

On that board, it is assumed that everyone's partner is BPD.

[1stTimer]

Hi Skip, I do get that I loaded it with the Grand Gesture and likely my best move was the 'no worries, reach out when you can or when you want, I am here' after she retreated from her invite to meet me at our bar. I get she was reaching out to me. Likely I should have waited a day before replying. Again my fear was that she stepped back because mom/sis/therapist reminded her about chasing me, how I'd been emotionally unavailable, etc.  So I figured I ran the risk of her deciding to not go back to what she left in the first place. And that if she was reaching out after two months there was something there for her as well. Remember we werent' married or even in a relationship like many people here, we just had... .something... .4 months which clearly was big for both of us.

I mean I am sure she has dated because she can and she could have moved on as I could have (with more difficulty due to my situation).

So I did the Grand Gesture only because if what we are talking about is reconnecting that then I needed to make sure she got that I got it. If you read her texts in our exchange almost every one is about her surprise/caution about the way I am 'suddenly' treating her. Even our day together as BF/GF she made more than one comment e.g. 'how come I always kiss you first' and 'I didn't think you even liked me sitting in your lap'.

Thus Grand Gesture if those things were rolling around in her head with Mom/Sis doing 'but he nevah cawted you' and Therapist reminind her I am a toxic narcissist or whatever he says I needed some potent counter-measure.

Not sure how to unGrand the Gesture.

She wanted to meet that week and, like the time she invited me out, retreated. Herself? Therapist? Mom? I've said before that since she is likely pretty clear now I am not angry or looking for answers that any of the fear of meeting has to do more with her fear of her feelings (I think). I can't undo that gesture.  I'm glad I toned it down and nothing about it screams I CANT LIVE WITHOUT YOU or I LOVE YOU MARRY ME. I just think I said nicely I realize I put my fear before showing her the appreciation I felt, I've learned and am ready if she wants me in her life to take a giant step back and see what we have if we start from the beginning vs taking it from where we left off. I know that is still BIG but ... .

I still don't like the 'speak truthfully' and the 'can I reach out an hour before' but clearly something is up with her. My sisters gut was she in in treatment or some such. I hate to sound egotistical but I still feel I was a huge revelation in her life. Despite the 'appreciation' thing I think I was good and kind and supportive and strong in a way she has not had with a man. She's used to controlling shouting men who make her small to feel big, not quiet men who make her feel big to feel big. If that makes sense.

I think in some core ways we see life the same. Funny thing is as resistant/resentful as I got of the whole Man Provides and Protects because of what happened before with my last girlfriend (left me when going got tough) and the women who wouldn't date me when I was taking care of my dad and growing my business, I feel that, as corny as it sounds, that energy is the (as I said to her) engine of the world and love that dynamic. As does she.

I guess I'm not ready for detach yet :| Plan right now is to continue getting in great shape, work on business and see if this germinates in her.

Still in all I would have liked something from her with either of my letters but maybe months of putting it out there and not getting it back put her in a "YOU put it out there" mode. I dunno man. I just dont' see a way to unGrand Gesture w/o it being like the scene in singles.

BTW stopped looking at Facebook. She posts nothing except that one pic but noticed slowly adding friends (interesting enough nurses and medical people so maybe the in-treatment not so far off) but stopped looking altogether. Nothing good can come of that. I decided instead to start using mine in part because I'm dedicated to getting a real life back (in large part due to her) and also in case she looks will show I'm living a life.

I'm going to bet she shows up at our bar one day in this summer. That will be quite interesting because actually seeing her might change everything one way or another.

Grand gestures are not always easy to respond to because the situation is highly loaded. If someone is conflicted it requires them to resolve the conflict before responding and sometimes that cripples them. If there were communications problems at the end, the remaining taste of those can also stifle action. If they are worried about you triggering... .etc.

There are a 100 scenarios that are just as likely as the one you propose. Some good and some bad, but its more reliable to seek direct communications than to try and interpret FaceBook photos and silence. Lots of thing could cause either.

It seems like you both are wounded/rebuilding, place very high expectations on one another, and get very hurt when they aren't met.

As for going to Detaching... .are you two just not compatible, do you simply not see life the same way? You say that a lot. Is it time to just cut bait and move on?

As for going to Bettering... .did you ever think of just making a "non-grand" gesture? Make a coffee break date and bring her a danish and chat in the corridor for 5 minutes? Get a read on what is going on?

[Cat Familiar]

There are a 100 scenarios that are just as likely as the one you propose. Some good and some bad, but its more reliable to seek direct communications than to try and interpret FaceBook photos and silence. Lots of thing could cause either.

I'm gonna make some guesses, and you can correct me for mistaken assumptions.

I think what's bothering you most is that you don't know what the heck is going on with this woman. Is she a playah and had lined up a number of guys and you got caught in the middle? Is she a frightened, damaged woman who, on the verge of getting exactly what she wanted, got scared and ran? Did she take up again with the BDSM guy who bossed her around? Did something happen to her--health crisis, mental illness hospitalization? Is someone preventing her from contacting you again?

Like Skip says, the only way to find out is to ask directly.

And my feeling is that you'd rather wait for her to contact you again, rather than make that move. Perhaps you think it might make you more vulnerable. Possibly you don't really want to reengage with her. Maybe you fear getting caught back in her web. Or you might be afraid that she will refuse to see you.

It's certainly a way to find out and get closure, if that's what you want.

I'm thinking that based on what you've written, you're not all that eager to get into a relationship with her due to thinking she's not an emotionally healthy partner.

But something keeps you thinking of her, rather than thinking, "Wow--I'm glad I dodged that bullet."

Is it because you extended yourself, tried to show her your knightly romantic side and then she abruptly disappeared? Or do you feel like you still owe her the opportunity to connect with you on her own time schedule, just because you sorta promised that?

In any event, I would advise you to think of this in more simplistic terms. Do you really want this woman in your life or not?

And if yes, contact her. If no, chalk it up to having run across someone who's not emotionally stable and thank your lucky stars.

[1stTimer]

Dang Cat you are good. I'm glad I'm in an Amtrak station with time to kill

I'm gonna make some guesses, and you can correct me for mistaken assumptions.

I think what's bothering you most is that you don't know what the heck is going on with this woman. Is she a playah and had lined up a number of guys and you got caught in the middle? Is she a frightened, damaged woman who, on the verge of getting exactly what she wanted, got scared and ran? Did she take up again with the BDSM guy who bossed her around? Did something happen to her--health crisis, mental illness hospitalization? Is someone preventing her from contacting you again?

Yes yes yes and yes. To the first; I am so careful about women like that, I've spent 10 years in my local wine bar just listening and damn. I also as mentioned had this super-hot friend who used men like ping pong balls and tried to get me conscripted. I cooked dinner at her house over 3 years or so, late night wine and gourment food, never made a pass it drove her MAD, she told me she thought I was gay finally I said nope just because I don't try to sleep with you doesn't make me gay. She even did the 'I need a shoulder massage oh you can take my top off routine' No luck. I only say this because I'm so clear on the type of girl  I do like which would be my female counterpart; sweet and very sexual with the right person. So yeah if I misjudged like that? It would mean also she lied about almost everything.

The rest yes yes and yes If she went to the little-D guy who wouldn't let her speak to men and made him call her Mr and Sir (she tried that on me I said don't even) then more power to them. Being strong for a woman, I'm all for it. Bossing one around to feel strong/big? Not a chance.

I am in fact worried she may have had mental health crisis, one of my guesses about her 'things you need to know about me; is that she was institutionalized. The way she acted date night so surprised at being picked up, door held, what to do when hostess came, and even the sophmoric 'go steadh high school prom' nature of the 'official ask' made it seem as if she might have missed part of her adult life. I know too she was being treated for black out drinking.

Preventing me from contacting has crossed my mind; could be threapist, she could have moved back home with mom and be under her control, hospitalized, or BDSM guy. "Cant make firm plans" is non-sensical as is "can I reach out an hour before I think I can make it".

And my feeling is that you'd rather wait for her to contact you again, rather than make that move. Perhaps you think it might make you more vulnerable. Possibly you don't really want to reengage with her. Maybe you fear getting caught back in her web. Or you might be afraid that she will refuse to see you.

I don't think I have a move left. I got aroun the 'can't make firm plans' with Grand Gesture in case that was my only shot. But nothing else for me to do now except let her chew on it. She is a big girl if that doesn't make her want to reconnect my pretending to not be doing grand gesture won't work. She said 'can I reach out an hour before' and I said 'of course'. And the letter does say 'when you are ready'. So not sure how I make a move that doesn't jeapordize things.

I'm thinking that based on what you've written, you're not all that eager to get into a relationship with her due to thinking she's not an emotionally healthy partner.

I'd probably lose my friends and family if I did. And yes I have no idea if I want to. A lot of stars would have to align before just seeing each other and jumping in bed. A lot of questions to be answered. Not immediately but if this ever was to happen it isn't just Take 2. One reason I said let's have tea or walk in park and see what we have.

But something keeps you thinking of her, rather than thinking, "Wow--I'm glad I dodged that bullet."

GOD if I could figure that out I'd be a happy man. Everyone in my life says the exact phrase. I'm not a leper, in fact I get my fair share of ladies noticing me, I still have the 'rebuilding' and 'taking care of my mother' thing but I could date if I wanted. I am not sure what has hooked me here. Part of it is I did hold back and it was still really nice and I wonder for me and for her if I gave her  even part of what I gave the woman I loved years back what could develop. There was definite affection/connection and some great sexual chemistry and I didn't really extend myself in any of that nearly as much as I could/should have. A missed opportunity perhaps?

Is it because you extended yourself, tried to show her your knightly romantic side and then she abruptly disappeared? Or do you feel like you still owe her the opportunity to connect with you on her own time schedule, just because you sorta promised that?

Well last questions first; I don't think I owe her jack. I think I took a bullet here and made some really great gestures to her w/o the slightest bit of recrimination, anger, demands. I think that card personally is a lifetime gesture that she will keep in her heart if she never sees me again. I don't owe her anything. The abrubt disappearance hurts like hell, never had anyone just rip themselves out of my life like I never existed and not look back. I wonder all the time if she actually thinks of me at all. As mentioned above however, she never got to see my real knightly romantic side and I feel sort of like we both missed out on something great just before it started since I was ready to give that to her.

When I 'committed' to her that dinner night I didn't mean I wouldn't sleep with anyone else, I already was not and did not. I don't when I am with someone so I don't need to promise that. I meant I was ready to fully give myself as a man to her, not just to be her buddy who got her off sometimes. All the things she wanted and all the things I wanted to give and something about what we had and what she gave made me feel that might have been magic. I guess that is really my biggest regret (outside of my biggest hurt here).

In any event, I would advise you to think of this in more simplistic terms. Do you really want this woman in your life or not?

Same issue; mind f-ing unfaithful lying BPD woman? Not at all. Girl who has never been loved or loved well but ready for it and ready to be faithful, supportive and have that in return (apparently for first time) hells yes.

And if yes, contact her. If no, chalk it up to having run across someone who's not emotionally stable and thank your lucky stars.

Again simply no way. That letter is sitting in her room or drawer and definitely her mind. She knows she can contact me any momente she wants, she knows she can show up at our bar anytime she wants. I'm getting on with making my life great if she wants to step towards me she can do so and if I'm still available to her I will be. But I have no way to reach out to her and nor do I think I should and nor do I think it would help.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi 1stT -
Remember me?  I know there’s no turning the clock back... .if only... .if you do remember me, I had suggested a simple bouquet of wildflowers and a short note.  Something to “take her pulse”, so to speak.

I’m really sorry this has turned into something so painful for you.

I agree with Cat.  Simplify. 

I have learned some things.  We can talk ourselves INTO almost anything.  It’s harder to talk ourselves OUT of things once we’ve convinced ourselves.  That’s how smart and convincing we are.  The other thing I learned is not everyone we “lose” is a loss.  Food for thought.  And I’m not trying to talk you into or out of anything.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stT -
Remember me?  I know there’s no turning the clock back... .if only... .if you do remember me, I had suggested a simple bouquet of wildflowers and a short note.  Something to “take her pulse”, so to speak.

Hi Gem of course I remember you, you were one of my first supporters with great empathy and advice. I hope you are doing better btw.

I do remember the flower advice, I was at that time opposed to the gesture for my own reasons (didn't think she deserved them at that time). The only reason I sent flowers (sorry if repeating known history not sure where you jumped in) is because I reached out with a nice simple take-pulse text ("Walking in the park. A beautiful day. It reminds me of you. Hope you are well" to which she replied very quickly and quite happily and implied we should speak. I didn't 'bite' per se and she followed up with direct invite to meet and at the bar we met and wooed no less (meaning night, drinking, memories). However once I accepted she retreated, going silent for a day and then saying 'Lots happening. Can't make firm plans" so she retreated again. I did say 'no worries, reach out when you want or when you can, I am here" likely my best move yet

I was concerned however her mom/sis/therapist had gotten hold of her (which is why her temperature changed so much) and she'd disappear so if she was going to think on us/it I decided to just go for it vs losing her because she figured why return to the emotional withholding and uncertainty of his feelings. So I did the Grand Gesture and Flowers for that reason alone. I don't know if you read the letter but even though it was 'emotional' and 'deep' it was not a 'my soul burns for you'.

I’m really sorry this has turned into something so painful for you.

Confusing more than anything. Possibly because she seems so confused. She reaches out then runs back into her shell.

I agree with Cat.  Simplify. 

Yeah but. Too late. I sent the flowers and note. Now she knows at least I really did care and appreciate and if she is going to ponder reaching out I'd rather she know that than still wonder if it makes sense if I didn't really care much. So nothing to simplify really. Simplify now is wait and see. You did say if I sent flowers she'd let me know then if she was seeing someone. As I see it when she reached out to meet at our place the moment I reached out that is a hopeful sign she is not, and the fact when she got my flowers and 'note' (6 page 4x5 card-stock printed and spiral bound letter) which invited her to reach out to invite me back in her life and start over and see what we had that she likewise had the chance to say 'Thanks but look i am with someone'. Maybe that is what 'open to talk truthfully' means but that would be damn cruel (reach out to meet in person to say that).

I have learned some things.  We can talk ourselves INTO almost anything.  It’s harder to talk ourselves OUT of things once we’ve convinced ourselves.  That’s how smart and convincing we are.  The other thing I learned is not everyone we “lose” is a loss.  Food for thought.  And I’m not trying to talk you into or out of anything.

I'm trying to devine your point here. Do you mean I've talked myself into her pining for/wanting me too? Do you mean I'm unable to let go of that fantasy which is clearly not the case? I'm gathering that is your point by the "lose" is a loss comment. So just curious (that is fine too) if you mean your take on it is move on the girl is just not interested (which is largely fine now too)?

[1stTimer]

We can talk ourselves INTO almost anything.  It’s harder to talk ourselves OUT of things once we’ve convinced ourselves.

Also (replied above but forgot this) all I really in my heart talked my self into is that she returned to ex day she broke up with me and has been happily with him since, not thinking much of me at all, and is a high-functioning pwBPD. Maybe we would have met if I hadn't sent the Grand Gesture but it would have not amounted to much except for hearing about just that as I think it is something she wanted to hit me with anyway. More than anything that is what my heart says about this and that I read most of what was happening wrong when I was with her because my experience in my life has been with an entirely different kind of woman.

So there is not much to talk myself out of. The letter was in case I got it right, she is/was that woman and the letter would reach her.

[1stTimer]

Is she a playah and had lined up a number of guys and you got caught in the middle?

I think this is the part that bothers me and twists me the most. As you know I had not dated in awhile and am decidedly not a player and hate the whole scece and the whole 50 guys/gals in your phone you text while on dates with the other 49. This girl said and implied very much like me; shy (but very sexual), didn't date a lot, when we decided to start whatever we had neither of us was dating or talking to other men/women, when we had sex neither of us had had sex in over a year (me much longer) etc. She went on and on about being a one-man woman, wanting a committed monogamous relationship more than anything, rebuffed the player or two that hit on her at our bar in favor of... .moi. Seemed like someone I could build a solid relationship based on that mutual approach to life/love/sex and also because she was, like me, so sexual, could explore with each other since we don't/can't otherwise.

This is why the whole 'I'd cheat on him if I dated him' and the casual way in which she (said she) messed around with another guy smack dab when we were bonding sexually and she was basically making me part of her apartment/life/bedroom spun me out of control, why her to me very casual 'if a man doesn't say we are in a committed relationship I assume we are not' didn't jibe at all with what she'd said and why that whole text conversation has me out of sorts AND why if she in fact was with someone else the whole time or moved on that easily after planning basically a life with/around me I am so messed up on all this.

Because I went from girl just like me who is nuts about me and wants to be with me to girl who is exact opposite of me who in fact spent the whole time sending the very same flirtatious, sexual and future-bomb texts to multiple other men, slept with them while asking me to give parts of myself she knew were hard for me, dragged me over hot coals to get a committment while sleeping around and planning on being with someone else not me, and then never called me again not because she was scared of what we had but because she was f-ing someone else not even thinking of me.  The dichotomy between the two women and visions is hard for me to reconcile still. I guess this makes me sound like some blushing 1950s virgin but there you have it.

[1stTimer]

I think the question I am getting to Skip is really HOW do I now detach?

I keep remembering this from my past from the one woman I really loved ("love of life" as you said to not call her). She cut and ran a little into our 'courtship' despite what is as close to love at first site as either of us every experienced. Just before our Big Date after circling a few times. I was crushed. She tracked me down a week later, wouldn't let me leave until she spoke and told me she'd just gotten out of an emotionally abusive relationship and was not ready for me. I was able to let her go. Six months later she called me and invited me to dinner. She was waiting with flowers and said "I am sorry I was not ready for you I hope I did not cause you pain. I am ready now and I would love to be part of your life if you would have me".  And it was amazing.

As an aside this woman on hearing that story said it was stupid, women don't buy men flowers. In any event, what gesture could she make now? Even if she replicated the gesture? Even if she came back and said "I ran I was scared I loved you so much and needed to go figure it out" (clearly this is not what happened but doing best case scenario here. In any event she allowed me to suffer and twist in the wind for three months without a word, without seeing how I was, without giving me a thing back on any of the gestures I gave her. Certainly she could have done more with the letters than call them 'nice notes', certainly she could have given me a word back for my heart and soul? Certainly she could have reached out in the three weeks since she got the 'thoughtful note' and said something besides once again leaving me hanging in the wind until/unless she decides she wants something from me.

BPD apart this is not a partner I want. My ex showed she cared about me even while dealing with her own pain and showed me courtesy and honor and caring and her gesture to me to reconcile I will never forget. She hadn't even done anything remotely has horrendous as this girl.  And I never even loved this girl, I was head over heels for my ex pretty much from the second we said hi. So why am I 'conflicted' over a woman who treated me by every measure without a shred of caring whom I never loved? Just because she turned out to my shock to be the opposite of who I thought she was and I have some inane hope she is actually that woman? The one I DIDN'T love?

This is an inane waste of my heart and time and probably everyone elses So the question is; HOW do I detach? Are there tools besides working out, taking care of myself? I would wager that the odds are closet to 100% she will reach out in the next month or few months. Is my toolset simply NC? I don't want to speak to her since I will not be able at this point to avoid recriminations and don't really care much anymore to soothe or protect or understand a woman who has none of those abiities.  Is simply 'declaring' and posting in Detach enough? I keep trying to get there and keep getting caught up on highly unlikely alternate explanations/realities yet my friend's advice resonates;  she is where she wants to be doing what he wants with whom she wants and it is not you. So why should my heart be open to her return just because I sent her a letter she likely didn't deserve? Any 'guide' to detach besides the obvious (stop posting and talking about it) much appreciated.

[Skip]

Your girlfriend said to you "we just don't see things the same".

I think the pathway to understanding what is really going on here is to dig deep and understand what those words meant... .whether you leave or to rehabilitate your relationship... .this is the key to you finding true love going forward.

1T, I said earlier, I think it would help to break down that text message exchange to help understand better what happened there.

There is a lot going on with you... .the wounds of the last 10-15 years... .and it has played out in this relationship. You are not reading the social cues well... .from her and also from members here. 10-15 years of pain can do a lot of damage.

Yes, one tactic would be to paint her black, work out in the gym until you are too tired to think, and wait for the next person to come along.  The other is to take this apart in an environment where you let everyone know that you are open to listen to them and to let them help you - really listen - grow from this experience.

This is a good place to unravel that big ball of twine and then re-wrap it a more fulfilling way.

Does that make sense?

[1stTimer]

Hi Skip, I still respectfully disagree again. That text message  exchange may illustrate my lack of trust in her and her lack of trust in how I feel about her but, again, it points to her pathology that some inane official request to be official/exclusive after having been asked/answered three times and then a special trip to confirm needed to be made. MY reactions are to that insanity and the realization I was not dealing with the woman I thought I'd just opened myself up to. Literally just as I put my guard down she did a 180 on who she was. The text exchange won't unravel that.

I just should have walked when I got the clues she was the very mess I thought she was when we met. "I know I'd cheat on him" is basically all I needed to know. I slept with him in the apt I gave you keys to in the bedroom I gave you  drawers to because you hadn't said you wanted to be exclusive is as well.

I know what my point is in the exchange; I don't trust you (and her 'we are not official untl you ask/confirm for the 5th time' is good reaosn not to).  I don't know what HER point is since she got what she wanted.

"We see things differently". What is to unravel? My best take on that is she was trying to say that I thought she was pushing for a relationship all these months and she was not. She tried to say that at some point "I stopped pushing after you wouldnt take about California" but that was decidedly untrue (keys, drawers, falling in love with you, whole lifetime to figure it out, the whole official ask, etc etc etc).

I do not see that as key in the slightest either. I don't need to see things the same as every woman I date. She wanted what she wanted and got what she wanted and left. She knew how I 'saw' things from the start. it is not my job to see things the way she does or to be responsible if she doesnt want to be with me BECAUSE I don't but still wants a committment just to have it. We didn't date for 2 years and grow apart because we saw things differently and I didn't listen Skip.

There is nothing to learn from the text or that ludicrous cop-out she said instead of "I'm scared I can't do this!" (which is what she said at dinner).

Here is the takeway that matters to me moving forward;

1) I should never have taken myself out of dating it only made me incredibly vulnerable to the first connection I had. Most of my anst here is she became the only real connection/affection I had in the world.

2) I should trust my gut since my gut told me NO from the moment I met her. I told me run when she did the 'I'd cheat on him' and when she explained why she slept with the other guy (oh sorry just 'dabbled'. it told me to run when she came uptown to confirm and told me how many people would want to meet me since she hadn't had a boyfriend in ten years. It told me to run when she did the 'I'm not your gf yet'. It told me to run AT dinner. It told me to run all the months before that when she'd ignore my needs because she needed me/someone in her life, especially when she asked me to not move to where I was happy and to stay where I'd be miserable. When we walked together in the park and she asked me to show here where I lived and I said no and played it off like a joke it was not, my gut said do not show her.  My gut made me leave the night she went to bed and said stay over and my gut made me return her key and my gut made me write the good bye letter. I didn't listen because I was desperately lonely. And I should never have let myself get that way.

The only thing I did right in all this in fact was to tell her exactly what I did when I walked out, that was the TRUTH. And she deserved it.

My issue is not with what I texted, that was my GUT telling me to run she was NOT to be trusted and NOT the woman I thought she was. My issue is not that 'we see things differnetly' because who cares? That was HER issue and she could have simply let me walk any of the times I did and not suck me into the lunatic whirlpool simply to get me to say the things she wanted and plan a future she didn't want with me. In any event, I'll repeat, that was just her way of havng me pretend with her I 'misunderstood' her desire for a relationship with me. This is why over dinner she said 'let's take off the table before you ask that I EVER said I wanted a relationship with you'. Sorry there is no key to my life here.

The key to my life is being open to dating again, to not have such lofty milestones for myself to 'qualify' to date, to not let myself get so isolated I'll hang on like a drowning person to trash in the sea. The key to my life is trusting my gut which did not let me down at least in it's signals. The key to my life is to learn to take a breath before I react. The key to my life IS getting back in shape mentally, physically, emotionally.

Otherwise there is nothing to 'mine' in the conversations with her. I was not at fault except for not simply walking away like I did because I was terrified of being alone and lonely again. That fact there ever was such an inane conversation and I let myself be part of it is the issue. The fact I've held on to some fantasy that she was the woman I hoped/thought she was instead of the woman she clearly is is the issue. The fact I put such a beautiful letter in front of a woman like that simply because I still hoped she was that woman is the issue.

I'll see things differently with a lot of woman. That will mean we either won't date or will break up eventually. What happened with this girl was not that. She is a blazing mess, I knew it when she started pursuing me, I knew it at the end, and I let a few really nice experiences color that because I wanted so desparately to believe she was a person she was not. "We see things differently" is a conversation you have during a relationship. Not after the day after you've practically whipped a person into a complete and utter commitment to you. Then it is just an excuse.

Is she "black"? Nope she is a hot mess of pwBPD who has not had a real relationship with a man into her mid-30s though she claims to desparatly want one and who treated me like utter garbage at the end and the last 3 months though we'e tried to ignore it here. I accepted it and did a mea culpa because I've been alone and lonely and haven't dated and lost my dad and been isolated from most of my family for 15 years. It is THAT I need to work on and change. Not 'seeing things' like she does. Not figuring out why I'd challenge a girl who treated me like her future and gave me keys and drawers AND insisted I ask for exlcusivity AND I did three times in one day AND confirmed the next day when she told me "I'm not your gf until you ask". My challenge and everything I called her on was DEAD ON Skip. I said if I am not your gf in your heart, if your commitment to me/us is not in your heart the words don't matter. She told me the DID and told me she was 100% committed to us. It was, simply, a lie and 'we see things differently' after she got me to commit doesn't change that and doesn't require analysis on my part.

Your girlfriend said to you "we just don't see things the same".

I think the pathway to understanding what is really going on here is to dig deep and understand what those words meant... .whether you leave or to rehabilitate your relationship... .this is the key to you finding true love going forward.

1T, I said earlier, I think it would help to break down that text message exchange to help understand better what happened there.

There is a lot going on with you... .the wounds of the last 10-15 years... .and it has played out in this relationship. You are not reading the social cues well... .from her and also from members here. 10-15 years of pain can do a lot of damage.

Yes, one tactic would be to paint her black, work out in the gym until you are too tired to think, and wait for the next person to come along.  The other is to take this apart in an environment where you let everyone know that you are open to listen to them and to let them help you - really listen - grow from this experience.

This is a good place to unravel that big ball of twine and then re-wrap it a more fulfilling way.

Does that make sense?

[1stTimer]

Your girlfriend said to you "we just don't see things the same".

Allow me to clarify and put this quote in context for you and the board as I don't want this to become mischaracterized. My 'girlfriend' at the time was my girlriend for all of 36 hours. Because she had pushed me for months relentlessly to commit as such, because she'd pushed me manically for the prior week to ask, confirm and then officially ask her to be my girlfiend AND spent a day future bombing me once I did.

When she the next day acted as if none of this happened and I was some "sweet guy" she wasn't "ready for a relationship with" (after 18 months of pushing for the same) and I asked her if she knew how F'd up what she just did she said "I didn't do anything we just se things differently". This is not "we see life/relationships differently". This is a way of implying I misunderstood what we had or what she wanted. Which is and was an utter lie to let her off the hook from owning what she'd done and apologizing and not leaving me spinning in confusion.

IF 'my girlfriend' said this to me during a normal real relationship (something she has never had except perhaps for the emotionally crippling controllng dom she dated) we'd talk. Maybe we want different things from lie. Maybe I want a wife with a career she wants to be a homemaker. Maybe she wants a polyamours relationship I don't. Those are normal fork-in-the-road conversations couples have and if I'd ignored that and ened up booted to the curb, I can get pulling that apart to see where I went wrong not understanding or caring about what my girlfriend meant. My  36-hour girlfriend meant "I did not push you for 18 months and then the last month and then like a she-witch for the last week to commit every part of yourself you said you were protecting from loss and then rip it all away from you, you simply thought I wanted a relationship and I don't". Which was as anyone who read this can see an utter bs lie. AND never had the caring or grace to contact me once she came to her senses to apologize and give me some closure about her fears. I'm the idiot who tried to understand and sooth her. I havent gotten a WORD of reciprocal caring since.

[Skip]

Hi Skip, I still respectfully disagree again.

I know. 1,800 words. 

Hi 1stT -
Remember me?  I know there’s no turning the clock back... .if only... .if you do remember me, I had suggested a simple bouquet of wildflowers and a short note.  Something to “take her pulse”, so to speak.

"We just don't see things the same".

I feel it too.

[1stTimer]

I know. 1,800 words.  

"We just don't see things the same".

I feel it too.

I just don't know what this means. 

If you mean you and I ,very true, likely never will. That is fine. However. Her "we see things differently" had nothing to do with an impasse in how we see the world or relationship. It was her trying to make me agree that I'd misunderstood what she wanted from me. I did not.

[1stTimer]

And I get Gem suggested flowers/note. As I mentioned to her I rejected the idea at the time as I did not want to reach out like that and at the time (before she texted me to meet her) I didn't think she deserved them. My Grand Gesture was not not listening to Gem. It was my doing Hail Mary as it looked like the girl was running away and I had no way to counter the mom/sis/therapist. I was not not listening to Gem. I was doing something entirely different for a different reason. Bad call? Maybe. Letting her run after reaching out to meet whilst not getting I'd done some work and/or in fact had the very feelings she seemed to doubt in her text exchanges had and has some merit. It was a 50/50 play.

[1stTimer]

1T, I said earlier, I think it would help to break down that text message exchange to help understand better what happened there.

I think it is pretty clear; she either does not fully trust my feelings for her which she alludes to alot or she is buying time or she is keeping herself 'technically' not committed for a few days so she can do... .whatever. I asked her about the latter she said no.

To me all that matters is I clearly do not trust her. I've never not trusted a woman I'm with before. Ever. And it is bothering me.

If we had never had the "I'd date him but cheat on him" and the "I 'dabbled' with another guy a day aftter we did" (in the apt she gave me keys to and bedroom bureau drawers in with the toy we apparently shared for the first tie) and "these are your drawers and I'll put the BDSM kit you bought me here and promise I won't use it with anyone else" and "if a guy doesnt say we are in a committed relationship I can do anything I want" regardless of what is happening between them then I'd have reacted far differently to her.  I'd have been far more understanding treated it far more lightly and understood her insecurity.

What should have happened is that when i sent her the goodybye letter tellng her how I felt about all this and the things above I should have stuck to my guns and not met her and not then asked her to be my girlfriend since I already knew what she was about.

That is on me.

[Cat Familiar]

You can spend a lot of time parsing through all the exchanges you had with her, or you can simply look at behavior vs. attitude.

She claimed that she hadn't had a sexual relationship for a long time and that she was monogamous. Yet she slept with some guy just after she slept with you.

She asks repeatedly to be your girlfriend. When you agree, she disappears and doesn't contact you again.

You're in the weeds looking at this, trying to figure out who she is. If you just look at behavior and ignore what she has said to you, it becomes very clear.