I wrote what I consider to be a really good letter

[1stTimer]

Well my Sunday night take on things;

I wrote what I consider to be a really good letter which I was going to drop off with flowers. Nothing simple (of course) but just the entire meat of what I wanted to say that would put the whole thing on the line for her or me. She'd have to s or get off the p, and at worst I'd get to say everything I wanted.

But here are a few things I thought;

I don't want to say those things to her until I hear some things from her.

I mean everything I say in the letter but BPD or not she owns some of this.

And. I want her to come to this on her own for that reason.

And. I decided the only way out on this it to choose that she is confused/hurt woman vs BPD manipulative one. Otherwise I approach solving this the same way I approached IT in the first place; in fear and trepidation. And that is no way to approach success.

If I choose the former then I have this; a woman who chose me out of all the men in New York to be the first relationship in ten years, a woman who planned her life around me a scant 8 weeks ago, a woman who looked at me as her entire future and MEANT IT when she said 'we have our entire lives to figure it out'. A woman who cried when I said 'be my one and only' because she felt like I was her one and only already.

If I choose that as my reality, since I have no way of knowing realtity, than I don't need to send this letter. It would be beautiful it would speed up our resolution, but it won't answer for me if she has come to me in the last 8 weeks with all of this knowledge and desire.

If she is and felt the way I choose to believe, then her texts reflect exactly that, and her last skittish one and my reply only gives her the time and space to understand all of this. I've stayed the course through asking, offically asking, being pushed away, expressing my love weeks later and exprssing my caring through my text weeks after that. She knows and no letter or words will change that so it is time for her, if she is who I believe her to be, to take the space I gave her and get there and to me herself.

That said, I'm posting the letter here. Corny as all hell, but from the heart, she'll never read it now, but putting it 'out there' at least puts it out there and I believe its energy will be there as well. Forgive the senitment and the sap board (I in fact had this as 4 landscape formatted boards in script):

*****

Since I was remiss in giving you flowers any one of the hundred times I tried to find the courage to do so, please accept this bouquet which I hope can stand-in for each of those I didn’t give you and each I might have and to let you know that I did care for you in so many ways and so much more than I was able to let myself say to either your or myself.

Of all the things I want you to know one which I never found the strength or even grace to tell you at the time is that you made my birthday one of my most special nights and you simply awed me. Your caring, your affection, your kindness, your passion, your beauty, your sweetness, your friendship, your sensuality, your softness, your support, your grace all culminated into what I consider our first kiss and maybe my first real kiss in years. I can still hear the silence of our kiss and to this day I still taste the chocolate on your lips. When you said to me after we kissed "I want to start seeing each other once a week" I, to my everlasting regret, bit back the words that almost left my lips: “Once a week? I’d want you in my arms like this once a day" and instead I said… nothing. And in turn gave you nothing.

There are a lot of things I figured out from searching my soul   since I saw you last and they all are more examples of the above; I let my own fear get in the way of making you feel safe and appreciated.

Even more so I remembered that being a man is putting aside your own fear to make your friends and family and most especially your lady feel safe and appreciated always. I forgot that for a while to my shame and if that caused you pain I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I only wanted to cause you joy and simply forgot how when I lost my way over these years.
 
Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I was again both from having you in my life and losing you from my life. I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place who would always put your safety and happiness first. If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again.

We don’t need to start with a kiss or a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we are when we are holding hands with open hearts. When you are ready to find out I will be here.

Until then you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.
Peace and Love…
(Me)

[Skip]

1T, I think its a good letter. I might rework the first paragraph... .This video resonates with a lot of men. Elvis never got over his first love. 93 million views on youtube.


Date: 26387Minutes: 3:28
Always on my mind

1T, this is pretty timid. You're in NYC. Man are pretty bold. Women expect it.Don't you think.

Yah I think we sort of part company on the whole bold-he-man part of it here. I'm not dealing again with an ordinary situation. I'm trying to balance letting a potentially toxic insane BPD woman back into my life and a girl who might be hurt/scared and just said 'cant make firm plans'. I've been bold and strong and unavailable and take-or-leave-you and on-my-terms since I've met her.

I'm not suggesting that you become a "he man alpha male" in the image of the Men's Rights Movements or "Red Pill". Not my point at all.

I'm suggesting that you look at the big picture. You had a "take-or-leave-you" and "on-my-terms only" attitude... .and in the end it did not work. I don't think I would double down on that approach. I can see why you liked it, but that type of thing is not sustainable.

When I say be bold, I'm talking about courting her. Pursue her. While this hasn't been your role in the relationship so far, it is the traditional male role and she even went as far as to ask you to court her.

I understand that she pursued you. I understand that you liked that. But that is over now.

Without getting over your skis, I'd get out if the text message venue and call her for a short call (keep it short) and see if you can just make a connection.

The letter is a good letter, but is it the next step?  

And ask yourself, are you holding out for a situation where she pursues you like she did before. Is that a good path to take.

[1stTimer]

1T, I think its a good letter. I might rework the first paragraph...

I'll post the final at the end of my reply, first paragraph remained, I gave her sort of an 'out' at the end if she has moved on romantically since it was her friendship more than anything I connected to and would like her back in my life. Meanwhile moving on to replies (and thanks for reading the letter):

I'm not suggesting that you become a "he man alpha male" in the image of the Men's Rights Movements or "Red Pill". Not my point at all.

I do get that but there was a lot about being bold and pushing through etc. and I really can't push through her last 'lots happening. can't make firm plans'. And again I'll say there was nothing more happening in her life at 12:15pm sunday when I replied than there was at noon when she asked me out. So her ignoring my reply, my next one the next day and acting midnight tuesday as if I asked her out was her backing off hard and fast. Wanted me to pursue/court? Maybe.  People reminding her what a s*** I was (not)? Maybe. But she backed off hard. She did not say 'hey this week is crazy let's try next' and leave a door open. She slammed it. So I don't see that being not-timid etc would include ignoring that message.

That is why I thought, since she likely does NOT want to pursue but had made it clear she wanted to see me and had, in theory, said I can't make plans, I'd give her an out where she didn't ahve to be the one to reach out and I could honor her (supposed) inability to make plans (how can that even be?). So I thought I'd say I will be at 'our bar' (which I am a lot) if you want to pop-in and join me I'd love that. I would not then be a timid man glancing at the bar I was just trying to honor all of her spoken and unspoken wishes; I want to see you, I don't want to chase you, I can't make plans.

And I've said to I don't want to JUST take on the "I messed up I shall now pursue you mightily' mantle.

I'm suggesting that you look at the big picture. You had a "take-or-leave-you" and "on-my-terms only" attitude... .and in the end it did not work. I don't think I would double down on that approach. I can see why you liked it, but that type of thing is not sustainable.

I didn't like it. I hated it. I just had no other terms to offer Skip. I'll say again right when we started was right when I took my mother to Cali for 5 weeks to basically save her life, while we were there she told me she was considering killing herself one day and I had to basically walk her back to health all over Santa Monica, twisting my families arms to put aside their petty problems and give her the tender love she needed. I did manage all that and came back and started with this girl (on said birthday) while still living with my mother. I didn't have a lot of terms to give. I wasn't just being 'this chick digs me I can do what I want'.  It is one reason I put so much effort into helping her get her $40,000 raise; it was support I could offer and interest in her life well being I could offer.

I am in fact a hopeless romantic and in love with the entire classic male-female dynamic/energy, I even said to this girl that that is the engine of the world.

When I say be bold, I'm talking about courting her. Pursue her. While this hasn't been your role in the relationship so far, it is the traditional male role and she even went as far as to ask you to court her.

I want to. I opened the door. She stepped in. She slammed it the moment she did and not coyly. Again could be 'argh I chased him again! I am not sure.

I understand that she pursued you. I understand that you liked that. But that is over now.

Argh no no NO! She pursued me. I said no and put an end to it. She pushed for more endlessly I did NOT like it it was NOT respecting where I was and my need to take it slow and open up slowly. I don't want to be pursued.

Without getting over your skis, I'd get out if the text message venue and call her for a short call (keep it short) and see if you can just make a connection.

I don't know how that would work. Funny enough I think we may never have had a phone conversation anyway. She can only be in a couple places now; let him pursue me. My emotions got the better of me I'm gone.

The letter is a good letter, but is it the next step?

Yes. Because we'll drag this thing out to Kindgom Come. She has had two months to think like I have. CLEARLY she has thought about me and wanted me to call her texts make that clear. And she ran again. She has no idea of all the work I've done to realize my role in this. Even if she is still nuts about me as far as she knows I'm still the same closed off you-chase-me person whose feelings at the end she really did not trust (thus the official date, thus the 'I'm surprised you even talk about me to your friends, etc.).

I just want to get to the truth of this.

If she has moved on period, I want her to know I know I did not show her the appreciation she deserved but appreciated her more than she knew. So she'll know that and carry it. If she is someplace wondering whether to reply/reconnect she is doing so w/o all the information about who I am and what I've learned and HOW I FELT so she could only be saying ":)o I really want to return to that?". So my letter serves to allow her to decide with where I am now and who I am now and to know if she does decide on 'us' it is with the us she wanted and the me she wanted.

And ask yourself, are you holding out for a situation where she pursues you like she did before. Is that a good path to take.

Double-Argh. NO. I do not want her to pursue me. I want and am ready to treat her exactly as she always wanted to be treated and the way I like to treat a lady and more importantly one I care deeply about.

Final letter below. I say final because, sigh, I made it into 5 landscape pages, in script-font. I had it reduced and then printed at card stock at Kinkos and spiral bound with her name on top. I'm dropping it off with a dozen pink roses and lilacs at her building. She'll learn a lot about what I've learned, what she meant, how much I appreciated her, what we could have and a little about how I CAN court when I want :|

BTW the reference to tea at the end is because she'd always invite me out for tea early on, clearly wanting to have a more personal interaction not involving going out, drinking, etc. Ditto museums, ditto family events. All of which to me were stepping into something I was not ready for. Anyhoots:

To (her)

Since I was remiss in giving you flowers any one of the hundred times I tried to find the courage to do so, please accept this bouquet which I hope can stand-in for each of those I didn’t give you, and each I might have, and let you know that I did care for you in so many ways and so much more than I was able to let myself say to you or even myself.

-----

Of all the things I want you to know one which I never found the strength or even grace to tell you at the time is that you made my birthday one of my most special nights and you simply awed me. Your caring, your affection, your kindness, your passion, your beauty, your sweetness, your friendship, your sensuality, your softness, your support, your grace all culminated into what I consider our first kiss and maybe my first real kiss in years. I can still hear the silence of our kiss and to this day I still taste the chocolate on your lips. When you said to me after we kissed "I want to start seeing each other once a week" I, to my everlasting regret and shame, bit back the words that almost left my lips: “Once a week? I want to kiss you like this once a day" and instead I said… nothing. And in so doing gave you nothing for all you gave me.

-----

There are a lot of things I figured out from searching my soul since I saw you last and they all are more examples of the above; I let my own fear get in the way of making you feel safe and appreciated. I still remember texts from you that took my breath away you never even knew I saw because I couldn’t find the courage to tell you how much they meant to me.

And then I remembered that being a man is putting aside your own fear to make your friends and family and most especially your lady feel safe and appreciated always. I forgot that for a while to my shame and if that caused you pain I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I only wanted to cause you joy and simply forgot how when I lost my way over these long years.

 -----

Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I was again both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place who would always put your safety and happiness first.

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again.

-----

We don’t need to start with a kiss or a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we are when we are holding hands both of us with open hearts. And if all we have left to us is holding hands in the sunlight that is, to this man at least, a lot to have lost and a lot to look forward to. If it turns out we still have whispers in the dark I will earn and cherish every one of those whispers and never keep one of my whispers to you to myself again. When you are ever ready to find out I will be here. Until then and forever you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.

Peace and Love,
(me)

[Skip]

All in all, this is all in a better place than it was a week ago with your first letter. Lot's of progress.

There is merit to doing these things in small bites and there is merit is just sending the "hail Mary" letter. So much depends on where she is mentally and emotionally and you can only make your best guess, and you have.

It's a good letter and presenting on paper is much better than a text or email.

Keep us updated.

[1stTimer]

So much depends on where she is mentally and emotionally and you can only make your best guess, and you have.

Thanks Skip. I basically think I lose her if I wait on her and if I text. So Hail Mary it is. Also for me. Walk out of the Stadium with the girl or walk out alone but I need to walk out of the stadium. I can't butcher the metaphor much more so I'll leave it at that.

Dropping off the flowers and 'book' with her tomorrow afternoon. Fortunately, I have two back to back insanely hard classes at the gym from 6-8 so I can be relaxed either way by 9.

All in all, this is all in a better place than it was a week ago with your first letter. Lot's of progress.

Most of that due to the help and support of the board and most specifically you Skip thanks.

[pearlsw]

Hi 1stT,

Wishing you the best with this!

~pearl.

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stT,
Wishing you the best with this!
~pearl.

Thanks Pearl! Any thoughts as a lady whose dated and loves being courted? I still haven't given it so if there are any glaring 'piss off pal' remarks I'd love to know. Kinkos is pretty easy to re-order from

[pearlsw]

Thanks Pearl! Any thoughts as a lady whose dated and loves being courted? I still haven't given it so if there are any glaring 'piss off pal' remarks I'd love to know. Kinkos is pretty easy to re-order from

Oh gosh, I really don't wanna second guess your letter, but as I reread it now I would change a few spots if I was in your shoes. Take or leave my ideas here! This is all you! But... .

I would not say this: "and instead I said… nothing. And in so doing gave you nothing for all you gave me."

She said some nice words, you froze. It's okay. We can't always find the words.

I'd keep it positive here, and kind to yourself, and stop just before this. It's more dramatic, more heartfelt, will make her hold her breath - if she is into you. If anything, repeat the sentiment you just stated. "That is what I wish I had said, that and more."

If this is how you see "men" and "ladies" then leave that part in, if it suits you. Personally I'd take out "being a man" and replace "lady" with "partner", but that's just me. I just think some of this does go both ways. We should all make our partner's feel safe - this is not just a duty for a man so don't carry that giant weight on your shoulders alone.

Again, I think it goes too far to say that as a man you have to always put her safety and happiness first. I'd see you as a guy who didn't give a d*mn about himself and was a bit of someone who would allow himself to get walked all over. That would not be appealing. It would make you sound desperate to me. Desperate is never a good look in courting, for either party.

Instead of putting her safety and happiness first, just say "make it a priority". That is enough, and doesn't give away the farm.  You matter too. Your emotional safety and happiness matter too.

I would suggest the tea, but not the hand holding. The flowers do enough to give all the signal you need towards loving her. I would not presume to suggest that tea and hand holding are in your thoughts. Let the hand holding happen naturally, if it does happen. Instead I'd write "just see where we are with open hearts." I think that also means you don't need this part: "And if all we have left to us is holding hands in the sunlight that is, to this man at least, a lot to have lost and a lot to look forward to. If it turns out we still have whispers in the dark I will earn and cherish every one of those whispers and never keep one of my whispers to you to myself again. " Way too tragic. Save it for a poem, later, to yourself. This sounds too much like you would be open for sex with her. Not something you need to say, something you let happen naturally if she signals a desire for it... .any potential physical contact let her take the lead on.

To me it is way too dramatic and... .it is sort of predeterming the whole get together. It signals you have a vision for it and if she reads it and is turned off, well, not good, right? Let her have her own imagination about how this could play out in person... .let her dream a little... .let her fill in the blanks about where a face to face conversation could lead. If any part of her has been dreaming about this happening she just needs to hear you want it too, see the preview, not the whole movie in advance.

Oh gosh, I hope you take this with a grain of salt. I am likely more of a feminist than she is... . But still, I think these tweaks have some merit and could help preserve your dignity while also showing how much you care and that is important I believe.

take care buddy!

pearl.

[1stTimer]

Hi Pearl, thanks for the Pearls

I would not say this: "and instead I said… nothing. And in so doing gave you nothing for all you gave me."

It is sort of the theme though; it wasn't that she said nice words. She went out of her way to make a really magic night for me and I really gave her nothing back. She had no idea how much that gesture meant to me. It wasn't her nice words I froze on. It was really a theme of that and the next 4 months. She would go out of her way to be romantic/supportive, I'd sort of... .ignore it.

If this is how you see "men" and "ladies" then leave that part in, if it suits you. Personally I'd take out "being a man" and replace "lady" with "partner", but that's just me. I just think some of this does go both ways. We should all make our partner's feel safe - this is not just a duty for a man so don't carry that giant weight on your shoulders alone.

I agree and I've told you about the woman carrying the sword when the man drops it. But again, a lot of what has occured (and even according to her) is my not doing things for a man does for a woman. She'd even say 'yes that was nice but I mean as a man for a woman'. She wanted me to make her feel like a woman, my woman, not just my buddy.

Again, I think it goes too far to say that as a man you have to always put her safety and happiness first. I'd see you as a guy who didn't give a d*mn about himself and was a bit of someone who would allow himself to get walked all over. That would not be appealing. It would make you sound desperate to me. Desperate is never a good look in courting, for either party. Instead of putting her safety and happiness first, just say "make it a priority". That is enough, and doesn't give away the farm.  You matter too. Your emotional safety and happiness matter too.
 

Hmm I don't think she ever saw me as a doormat, just the opposite. Firm boundaries and when she did things I didn't like I let her know firmly. For instance when she said "I don't believe you really cared, if you did you would have checked up on me" after I offered to take her to the Emergency Room the night before (she declined) but didn't check up the next morning. I think it is a pretty classic view; man  puts his lady's safety first. I guess I can change to priority, I don't think it will make such a difference though. She knows I value my emotional safety and happiness, a big part of the issue here is I valued it above hers and above all and ended up giving her very little in return. That is really the theme here: I was so intent on protecting myself/emotions/needs I didn't give her an ounce of the appreciation/acknowlegement she deserved, e.g. Birthday.

I would suggest the tea, but not the hand holding. The flowers do enough to give all the signal you need towards loving her. I would not presume to suggest that tea and hand holding are in your thoughts. Let the hand holding happen naturally, if it does happen. Instead I'd write "just see where we are with open hearts." I think that also means you don't need this part: "And if all we have left to us is holding hands in the sunlight that is, to this man at least, a lot to have lost and a lot to look forward to. If it turns out we still have whispers in the dark I will earn and cherish every one of those whispers and never keep one of my whispers to you to myself again. " Way too tragic. Save it for a poem, later, to yourself. This sounds too much like you would be open for sex with her. Not something you need to say, something you let happen naturally if she signals a desire for it... .any potential physical contact let her take the lead on.

Hmm entirely interesting take. I'm trying to say I want to be back in your life, but we don't need to jump in where we left off (the vows, the future, the be my one and only) I'm willing to take a few giant steps back and start from the beginning. I'm saying if we only have (e.g. if she has moved on) friendship (holding hands metaphorically) then I am fine with that. And if we have romance (whispers in the dark) still I am open to that. It isn't referencing sex per se it is referencing innocent friendship (holding hands) or romance (whispers in the dark). yeah romance is sex too. I don't need to be "The Man" and let her take the lead on physical contact btw :|

To me it is way too dramatic and... .it is sort of predeterming the whole get together. It signals you have a vision for it and if she reads it and is turned off, well, not good, right? Let her have her own imagination about how this could play out in person... .let her dream a little... .let her fill in the blanks about where a face to face conversation could lead. If any part of her has been dreaming about this happening she just needs to hear you want it too, see the preview, not the whole movie in advance.

Again interesting take on it. I'm pretty clear on saying I am ready if/when she is to see where we are. I say clearly "If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready" and "When you are ever ready to find out I will be here. Until then... " So my whole gist of this was "I have seen that I did not appreciate you as a lady or acknowlege what you brought to my life, I have found myself because of you, IF you want to reconnect or WHEN you want to reconnect I am ready and we can take two giant steps back from the 'be my one and only' official vows where we left off and back up a bit and rediscover each other. I'm not pussy-footing around however that I mean I want to return to where we were heading. I'm just saying that if she is not ready or we turn out to not have 'that' I value her friendship too.

My vision is we reconnect and take two giant steps back, take a walk in the park 'holding hands' and see what we have now that the dust has settled. If there is not more or if she is with someone else, we have that. If there still is we have that and this time I will not hold back as I did last time.

Oh gosh, I hope you take this with a grain of salt. I am likely more of a feminist than she is... . But still, I think these tweaks have some merit and could help preserve your dignity while also showing how much you care and that is important I believe.

She is hardly a feminist except in the modern terms; she believes my job is the important one to support us and a family and our lives, hers is for her happiness and we should stay where her happiness is :|  She believes men should lead when it is dangerous or heavy or expensive and women should be equals. In any event most of what I've said here is her views I'd wager.

Overall yeah is it dramatic; sure. It is sort of meant to be. I'm forcing the issue. I don't want to wait for her to take her time processing now that I texted her because her FIRST reaction was JOY and her FIRST response was to reach out to reconnect. Now she's had a week to remember that I was not an emotionally available courting male partner, that I withheld, she has time for her mother and sister and therapist and friends to all remind her 'what a jerk' I was and talk her out of her first instincts. she will not be returning any texts.  So she needs a dramatically new vision of who I am (who she thought I was), of my resolve and my desire for her. Let's face it the last time we left it we were in her apartment planning basically a life together (or she was). I'm clearly not reaching out to go to the movies and she is clearly not (first response at least) reacting so joyously or attempting recontact because she wants tea. This is about me wanting her (romantically and sexually) and her me. I don't want to play around anymore that that is not what it is I did that for months and months. I don't want to be coy about it. I just don't want her to think my point is 'let's go back to your apartment and pick up where we left off' that I know I need to earn her trust as the man she wanted in her life in the first place.

I'm just kicking this one out of the park. It's either a simple 'Thinking of you' (doesn't address ANY of her issues) or a giant 90 yard pass.

One other thing; she is VERY much 'you take the lead' and 'you decide'. I don't think she'd want a tentative (after everything I said) 'so let's get tea'. I think she'd want a more Skip-like  'this is what I want for us this is my vision of us'. I've really tried to not paint anything but 'let's reconnect with us both in a new place and with me in a place where I am the man you first hoped I was and see what we have'.


pearl.
[/quote]

[pearlsw]

Hey man,

I don't want to argue over your letter. You know what is best for you and what could possibly work here. You have the better sense of context undoubtedly.

I have never been able to grasp how badly you may or may not have messed things up with her, or what she was looking for, and what you have to offer.

I hope this brings you the results you dream of.

I also hope that you don't... .

Well, here is what I can share, I dated someone for about a year and it took me about three years to get over it. We went from him saying "I'll never ever break up with you, I love you so much, you're the best person I've ever been with... ." To poof, him disappearing. It took me a ridiculously long time to get over it. I moved on quickly, but it ate me up inside and I spent about a month writing giant letters to get him back. But he was gone. I did eventually get to see him, but he was a shadow of his former self.

Make your efforts, leave it all on the field, do what you gotta do, but if there was a lesson I got from what I went through it is never humiliate yourself for another person to win them back. Say what you can, they will respond or not, love and forgive you or not, but you don't have to be an over the top superhero.

If this is the kind of man you are expected to be now, and you keep filling this hole, and you let manhood be defined this way, where does this go if you do get back together? 

wish you much luck, pearl.

[1stTimer]

Hmm interesting take on it. I didn't think it came off as so hand-wringing. I'm just aiming for this Pearl, I guess I need to revisit it as that is not my intent.

FYIL I didn't do anything so wrong to her, she did her own stuff. I did very much not acknowledge a lof of what she did or gave because I was not ready for it and not ready to open up to it (as she knew). However... .it hurt her. I got mad at her for pushing me for things I wasn't ready for yet I had one foot in the door accepting the things she gave me without even doing her the courtesy of acknowledging that they meant to me.

I am just trying to say in the letter that I in fact really cared for her, as a woman, more than I could say, and that I should have not put my own fear/etc ahead of at least letting her know those things. Not that I had to be what she wanted when she wanted but if I was going to accept things like the birthday and the support from her as a woman and sex and romantic gestures like my birthday etc I should have acknowledged them and her. I got mad at her if you remember for not treating the keys she gave me and drawers she gave me and sex toy she shared with me as 'intimacies' and shared with someone else yet I never once let her know they meant so much to me let alone ANYTHING to me.

I'm just trying to let her know much they did mean, that I should have let her know, and that if we do reconnect I will not ever not let her know again. Thus my 'earn and cherish every whisper and never not share a whisper with you'. I don't see that as giving up my manhood. I don't see putting her safety first as giving up my manhood. I don't see saying I won't ever not acknowledge or appreciate you as that either. I'm trying to be a strong man who gets that he messed up and is big enough to admit it and promise to be a better man. I'll definitely take a look at it with a fresh eye though thank you. I'm not looking to be a doormat or to imply that in the SLIGHTEST.

The man I'm trying to be is a BETTER one than I was. Still with boundaries but able to either not accept what I'm not ready for or accept it, deal with my own issues, and give as good as I get. That is the only man I'm trying to be moving forward.

[pearlsw]

Hey 1stT,

That clears up a lot! You really think you showed so little appreciation though? Okay!

To me, if you weren't ready, you weren't ready. I don't see that, at least, as anything to apologize for. Did she respect that or try to push you beyond your limits at the time?

Sounds like she was wooing you and you were indecisive or not ready. Is that right? You didn't need to get MAD over it, but you also didn't have to do it her way... .I'm gonna stop now I feel like I may be taking this very wrong! 

best, pearl.

[1stTimer]

I'm gonna stop now I feel like I may be taking this very wrong! 

Last quote first: I am not taking it wrong at all, I utterly appreciate your insights. Sorry if I sound offended, I am not. it is a tough line for me to straddle.

That clears up a lot! You really think you showed so little appreciation though? Okay!

I do. Because of my reticince. I didn't say much of anything when she offered me her keys, said you can work out of here, etc. Something more than 'uh huh' but not much. When she walked me into her room to show her she made room in her drawers for me? Ditto. Even the amazing day of sex when she was 'walking on air' and 'feel like I'm on 3 valium' (hey how did she know that) I didn't have much to say. She was right she was always the first one to kiss and many of her really amazing supportive texts I ignored. Again this is why she was so shocked at the 'be my one and only' and that I even talked to my friends about her. If a girl who is making you birthday parties and sharing intimate toys and texting you super supportive thoughts is shocked you MENTION her to friends you have done something pretty wrong to not let her know how you feel.

To me, if you weren't ready, you weren't ready. I don't see that, at least, as anything to apologize for. Did she respect that or try to push you beyond your limits at the time?

She did not respect it. Not for a minute. She pushed and pushed and pushed. Even to the whole discussion on whether I should move to Cali etc. BUT. Meanwhile I'm sleeping with her, accepting her support, basically acting like a BF/GF but not giving back. If I wasn't ready I should have stayed with text buddies. I had my cake and ate it too so can't be really mad the cake wanted something too.

Sounds like she was wooing you and you were indecisive or not ready. Is that right? You didn't need to get MAD over it, but you also didn't have to do it her way

I needed to s or get off the pot. She too. I think she knew we had something. I don't know anymore man. I'm just sending an A-Bomb out there because I don't trust that space now will do anything but lose her, I can't close the gap contacting her because her 'can't make firm plans' puts me in a box, and I don't want to figure out each day/week some way to manuever closer or figure out what Monday meant or a text meant or hope she shows up. I'm going to say it is 90%+ that I lost her, that she found someone who WILL take her out and say nice things and kiss her fingers and talk to their friends about her and go to her family events and she deserves it and I deserve that if it is true. It has been a week since I texted back 'No worries, reach out when you can or when you want I am here'. Maybe that said the same thing as the letter and maybe she will in fact process the fact of how she FELT getting my text and what she felt like when she asked me out. I don't want to chance it I don't want to wait and I want to move on one way or another. Either she walks in the door and jumps in my arms, I never hear from her, or I get a nice Dear John text (such a nice letter met someone). Either way I can process and move on.

[1stTimer]

Man then this article

www.gettinbetter.com/anycost.html

Makes me want to burn the letter, shred the flowers and go into Witness Protection. I/we better be right about this... .

[once removed]

if youre thinking about taking queues from shari schreiber, id check out this thread first:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320331.0

[1stTimer]

if youre thinking about taking queues from shari schreiber, id check out this thread first:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320331.0

W-ow. All in all I'd take a relationship with pwBPD over her. I guess my point was it reminded me that, letter aside, I came her because this might be woman with BPD and my letter definitely could be opening Pandora's box. I modified the ending a bit see next post

[1stTimer]

Well dang Pearl if you don't take the cake

After some sleep and space I ended up changing the ending almost exactly to your 'specs':

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again. We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow where we left off, we could just start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we have when both of us have open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.

Removed the whole 'fear' of 'just' friendship and the whole whispers in the dark. Just 'I think I got my head on straight I'd love to meet and take things slow and see what we have now that I'm open if you are open to meeting'. Or some such.

[pearlsw]

Well dang Pearl if you don't take the cake

After some sleep and space I ended up changing the ending almost exactly to your 'specs':

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again. We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow where we left off, we could just start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we have when both of us have open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.

Removed the whole 'fear' of 'just' friendship and the whole whispers in the dark. Just 'I think I got my head on straight I'd love to meet and take things slow and see what we have now that I'm open if you are open to meeting'. Or some such.

Well dang 1stTimer,

I thought I was readin' some kind of indecent proposal there for a moment as I started to read your reply! hahahahaaha.

Well, good, that is just great... .I think this is a good example for you in terms of not jumping to defenses right off and keeping your ears open! Sometimes it's a good exercise to just assume you are wrong... .try a new idea on like a new coat and then you can take it off if you like - if it just doesn't suite you! You can always go back later and "be right"! ahhahaaha.

Keep in mind that listening will be big, big deal if you two do meet and get involved again. Slowing down your reaction times can make a big difference in improving communication!

Also, the changes I offered were about softening things. You still have what is a essentially a very heartfelt, romantic letter here, but you aren't offering the entire universe to her, just the world, and that is enough. Save something for later - if she comes back! Show her that you are this guy, that you can listen and be open to meeting her needs, not just saying, but showing!

best of luck to ya friend!  

~pearl.

p.s. I   cake!  hahahaaha.

[1stTimer]

All great advise Pearl. I think I've learned to listen better here and communicate better but I do still tend to fire off before doing either :| I think too fast but should learn to not speak so fast.

You'll be happy to know I also took your advice on the "Once a week? I want to kiss you like this once a day” and instead I said… nothing. And in so doing gave you nothing for all you gave me." and changed to "Words I wish I’d shared and words I wish I’d lived by."

I also (my you are persuasive!  ) removed

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place who would always put your safety and happiness first.

And yup I don't want to offer the universe until not only does she 'come back' but offers me some part of the world too. She played a role in all this too and I'm offering an olive branch/mea culpa not, as you said, a doormat.

I'm thinking if her hasty retreat was either 'he needs to chase me' or 'why am I getting back into the same thing' this letter can give her gist for the mill at least. Thanks for your solid and loving feedback.

[pearlsw]

I'm thinking if her hasty retreat was either 'he needs to chase me' or 'why am I getting back into the same thing' this letter can give her gist for the mill at least. Thanks for your solid and loving feedback.

Oh sure! I have the luxury of armchair quarterbacking here, so I don't wanna steer you wrong. I just want you to get to a healthy balanced place... .one where you, we, anyone sees their mistakes, is willing to make amends, but not have to turn into a pretzel to do so!

So, can you get me back up to speed on when this plan gets hatched? When do the letters and flowers go out? Does she have a way to contact after that? And most importantly have you run the various trajectories this can take out in your head so you aren't massively disappointed, caught off guard, terribly hurt?

Can you do this from a place of giving with low or no expectations?

warmly, pearl.

[1stTimer]

So, can you get me back up to speed on when this plan gets hatched? When do the letters and flowers go out?

Weelllll they were going to go out this afternoon, picking up the bound 'poem' at Kinkos. However. I am scaling back again  mostly on the let's meet part. So it's more just 'let's meet'. vs rekindle. I dunno man.

Does she have a way to contact after that?

Yup. Email. Text. Call. Stop in at 'our bar'.

And most importantly have you run the various trajectories this can take out in your head so you aren't massively disappointed, caught off guard, terribly hurt?

- She ignores me. She already is but not sure IF she is i.e. she asked me out then backed off when I said yes. Not sure what to call that. So I send these and she ignores. Will that be huge for me? Not entirely as a) I'll have said what I wanted and she'll have more insight into how I felt and who I am and b) it will germinate for SURE

- She sends me some 'please don't contact me' type reply. I sort of don't see that happening given her recent replies t ome.

- She sends me some 'so sweet but I am seeing someone'. I see this as likely EXCEPT: I just don't get how if she is seeing someone seriously if I texted her she'd reply at all, let alone try to set up a face to face with me at the bar we met at, had multiple meets, kisses etc just to tell me that. That would make her insane and vicious. "Hi thanks for seeing if I was doing well just wanted to meet face to face since I broke things off to let you know I'm not dating someone else bye'? I mean in the same situation, some blow up of an almost relationship, the guy reaches out after two months and you are now serious with someone else, do you Pearl reply at all other then cool politeness and if so do you try to immediatly meet the guy at the place you used to 'love' one another? In any event this is either the scenario I see most likely or am most 'scared of'.

Can you do this from a place of giving with low or no expectations?

Sort a I'm just in limbo as it is. I wouldn't have considered this 'out of the blue' Pearl I'm really just doing this based on a few assumptions:
- That the things she said about me and our future and such were not some BPD driven over-valuation standard-operating-procedure but real feelings. In other words that two months ago this woman was considering entering into her first real relationship in years, with me, with the intention and hope of a life together. That wouldn't just go away in 8 weeks.

- That the speed and joy with which she replied was based on the above and based on her having spent that time thinking, wanting, hoping as I was.

- That her almost immediate desire to meet me (at our place again) was also her truest immediate reaction based on the above, whatever her subsequent pull back was.

In other words I'm basing this letter on the above being true and not on her being BPD in which case none of the above applies.

So it's hard to say 'no or low expectations'. I expect if all of this was real something good will come of it and that IF she is off thinking should I shouldn't I and her friends and family are saying don't go back there etc that this will give her a reason to make that choice.

The issue for me expectations wise is if I don't send I'm in limbo still; DID she want me to push through the 'can't make firm plans?'. Did she just run away for good and I'm just waiting on something that never happens and I am in limbo wondering on this board? Or is she somewhere figuring it out and doing so without 'all the data'.

I guess point is the worst that happens (realistically) is she says 'thanks but I've moved on' (and this STILL germinates inside her) and the best is she comes to me. The worst that happens waiting is she decides w/o all the info to not come to me and I just wait and wait and never find that out and the best is she reaches out but how likely is that without... .all the information.

I'll post my modified letter in a bit I guess, toning down the end.

[1stTimer]

Bombs. Away.

Card was gorgeous from Kinko, 8x6 heavy duty card stock, spiral bound, pink cover, white pages, script text and a small image or two to start and end it. Can't upload image but use your imagination I had written a new version but when I saw/read it man I really loved it. I wanted to reach out and reconnect with myself

Flowers were gorgeous, local atelier florist, pink roses and some other flower :|, she wrapped it all in purple, tied it off with twine and put the "card" inside the bouquet. I got the feeling she was thinking "4th guy of the day with the apology flowers what is UP with men?".

Anyway, she never be able to tell herself I never cared :|  And though I'm not preaching to th choir, hopefully since mom/sis are in her ear they'll get some better idea of who I am.

Again I'm going to have to hope a) the fact she reached out AND asked me to meet at our 'love bar' would rule out any significant relationship (cause that would be about as BPD-B**** as you can get b) she reached out so happy and fast because she has been hoping to reconnect as I have and c) all the "stuff" she said not just our last night together but for months and months was really about me being special in her life.

If any/all of the above is true that drop-off will be spectacular. It gets messy if you take out any of ABC of course.

I will update.

I feel great though. I was very happy walking it over. Partially because as you may have guessed I am a romantic IDIOT but also because it just felt like I was doing something right in the universe. Ever get that feeling? Like you just got into the part of the stream where you aren't fighting and just going where it wants. Yeah I know the waterfall metaphor sort of mitigates mine but still you know what I mean; universe is happy with you.

If she NEVER contacts me you know what; a girl who made me feel valued and sexy and handsome and smart and unique and special will get some of that in return and maybe just maybe not question if something was wrong with HER. That's the win I'm taking the rest is gravy.

[1stTimer]

Well so far no reply

I figure she got it this afternoon or maybe this evening so sort of kidding. She takes time to process even small messages (e.g. overnight) this one is a WHOPPER wherever she is at. I think it is sort of ironic I came to a BPD NC board to get advice on contact

To Pearl; what I wanted to say re letter which I kept forgetting was that this line... .

Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I used to be both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.

... .will likely resonate the most with her as her whole man/woman theme is women help make men into better men. I despise the entire concept personally but in this particular case, I'd say if not a 'better' man than the man I was. If you stop and read the letter (vs re-reading as I do) with fresh eyes it is a pretty profound thing to tell a woman. Hopefully she'll connect to that.

[Skip]

Did you post your final?

[pearlsw]

Well so far no reply

To Pearl; what I wanted to say re letter which I kept forgetting was that this line... .

Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I used to be both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.

... .will likely resonate the most with her as her whole man/woman theme is women help make men into better men. I despise the entire concept personally but in this particular case, I'd say if not a 'better' man than the man I was. If you stop and read the letter (vs re-reading as I do) with fresh eyes it is a pretty profound thing to tell a woman. Hopefully she'll connect to that.

Hi 1stT,

I hope this goes well for you. I am not sure I am the best woman to give you advice... .I am probably a bit of an outlier and respond differently than a lot of women. I also do think it matters what era you came of age in, and what sort of influences exist upon your dating style. Ya know?

I also hope I didn't underestimate how much damage/hurt you may have caused her and how she may have taken that. I dealt more with the letter at face value... .and I think it is good to offer a lot, but... .um, I think we have to be careful about how far we go with romantic gestures. But that is ONLY my personal take.

I remember early on, with my current SO, whenever we had a problem he'd try to rush in with buying me gifts. I didn't want a pile of make up gifts, which is what I would have ended up with I predicted! That would have been so depressing, and represented a giant pile of failure to me.

I wanted him to save his money, and just talk to me, just find a way to make up with words. But I think in some ways I did not relate to his internalized messages about masculinity and relationship repair, and mine were much different. Anyway, instead of denying him the chance to give me gifts, I realized to do so might represent rejection for him, I made sure they were scaled down, a compromise that I think worked well. A cheap piece of chocolate instead of jewelry for example. I liked letting him off the hook on thinking that he, as a man, owed me some kind of prize for each mistake he made.

Again, the best thing for me would have been him just following Fair Fighting Rules.

I hope I have not been a bad/misguided influence on you here!

Hope you set exactly the right tone you wanted and that you two are communicating again soon in a two-way direction!

Waiting here with ya!

wishing you the best, pearl.  

[1stTimer]

am not sure I am the best woman to give you advice... .I am probably a bit of an outlier and respond differently than a lot of women. I also do think it matters what era you came of age in, and what sort of influences exist upon your dating style. Ya know?

Man Pearl your advice has been amazingly helpful. I take into account where you come from just as I do Skip and Gem. Each of you has your own man/woman thing as do I as does 'my girl'. But your advice in general made for a much more powerful message AND one that hewed much more to my take on things i.e. I was not the Big Bad Wolf just a guy who realized if I was going to accept a relationship while I was in fear I still needed to acknowledge/appreciate.

In particular, I think getting rid of the whole 'if just friend in the sunlight' and 'whispers in the dark' was much needed. I think it was VERY powerful to just paint a picture of us starting afresh with me as the man she hoped I'd be. I mean clearly she'd picture herself whispering in the dark, living with, marrying and ending up with that man so all I need to do is tell her I've found that man and want to share him with her. She can paint a better picture than whispers in the dark from that and get that is there is nothing there we can still have the connection/friendship we did which was deep. I didn't need to spell it out with tragedy. I don't want her to think about tragedy, just possibility. So that advice was superlative, really.

The other dead-on advice was not doing the 'who'd always put your safety and happiness first'. I get she probably is more of that mindset than you vis-a-vis man/woman but it is still, in the end, generic. I ended up saying instead:

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place. I believe he’s the one you knew you could trust with your dreams, with your smiles, with your tears, with your life.
That is much more personal and relevant to us over and above gender dynamics; she did trust me with her intimacies and loved that I did not judge and accepted her anyway. I'd much rather her be a person who know SHE can trust me with her life than that she is a woman who I put first simply because of that.

I also hope I didn't underestimate how much damage/hurt you may have caused her and how she may have taken that.

I'm not sure how much I did. I know I was still a super supportive friend and man, I just didn't let her know what she meant to me as a woman, and clearly the fact she was shocked I talked to friends about her and she needed such over-the-top assurances and she didn't know how much sitting in my lap even meant to me tells you I dropped the ball on making her feel special and wanted in that regard. All I wanted to do was let her know I did and I knew that putting my fear in front of letting her know hurt her. Either accept what she gives and appreciate it or don't. She has her own crosses to bear with the recirprocal to this but that is her cross in the end. So yeah not just falling on my sword the whole letter was critical to any potential communication that comes from this. Spot on again!

I hope I have not been a bad/misguided influence on you here!

Well if this doesn't work out at least I have a written history for my lawyers :| No Pearl you've been a fabulous influence. When I went to pick up the booklet at Kinkos (G':)AMN I loved that book) I was planning on a whole new version and when I read the printed version (with your suggestions implemented) it was just... perfect. I walked it to her with the bouquet on top of the world.

Hope you set exactly the right tone you wanted and that you two are communicating again soon in a two-way direction!

Well MAN she has a ton to process. Which I wanted. If she's been sitting on 'do I want this unavailable man who doesn't know how to appreciate me back just because I love him?' then this should straighten that out.

Pearl I keep coming back to this; less than a day after my reaching out for the first time in two months directly (other than the letter I sent) she invited me to meet me at a place she knows is my refuge, is the place we met, is a place we've kissed and bonded. Not my Starbucks, not the park, not any other places that are no-mans-land but that place. On her own. I cannot imagine (caveat: if she is not pwBPD!) she did that to blow me off or tell me about a guy, she could have ignored me or texted me or met me in daylight for coffee. It is that woman I wrote this too. She must by now, as I write this as at 10:55 have read or be reading this, be reading it to her mother and sister and friends and processing what I've actually said about how I felt, how I know what I did hurt her, and how I want to start again with her as the man she fell for.

In any event if that resonates with her, a lot of that will be due to your sage advice

[1stTimer]

Did you post your final?

No, pretty much the same with minor Pearlets  I must say now that I sent it and re-read it late night my reaction is "My GOD what did I send?"

Since I was remiss in giving you flowers any one of the hundred times I tried to find the courage to do so, please accept this bouquet which I hope can stand-in for each of those I didn’t give you, and each I might have, and let you know that I did care for you in so many ways and so much more than I was able to let myself say  to you or even myself.
  
Of all the things I want you to know one which I never found the strength or even grace to tell you at the time is that you made my birthday one of the my most special nights and you simply awed me. Your caring, your affection, your kindness, your passion, your beauty, your sweetness, your friendship, your sensuality, your softness, your support, your grace all culminated into what I consider our first kiss and maybe my first real kiss in years. I can still hear the silence of our kiss and to this day I still taste the chocolate on your lips. When you said to me after we kissed "I want to start seeing each other once a week" I, to my everlasting regret, bit back the words that almost left my lips: “Once a week? I want to kiss you like this once a day”. Words I wish I’d shared and words I wish I’d lived by.

There are a lot of things I figured out from searching my soul since I saw you last and they all are more examples of the above; I let my own fear get in the way of making you feel safe and appreciated. I still remember texts from you that took my breath away you never even knew I saw because I couldn’t find the courage to tell you how much they meant to me.

And then I remembered that being a man is putting aside your fear and making your friends and family and most especially your lady feel safe and appreciated always. I forgot that for a while to my shame and if that caused you pain I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I only wanted to cause you joy and simply forgot how when I lost my way over these long years.
 
Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I used to be both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place.

I believe he’s the one you knew you could trust with your dreams, with your smiles, with your tears, with your life.

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be happy beyond words to be in your life again and would cherish your choice.

We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and see what we have when we both bring open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.
Peace and Love, (Me)

[pearlsw]

Oh my 1stT,

That is one beauty of a letter! That sounds like the summary of a romantic movie!   It would almost be worth being done wrong to get such a deep, heartfelt piece of writing in the end!

But let us hope this is not an end... .We're here to cheer you if you get what ya want and comfort you if it doesn't go to plan! Either way I like that you get to be deeply sorry, say what you need to, hopefully offer something that helps heal her too, and walk away with your dignity here, man... .Bravo! 

~pearl.

[1stTimer]

Oh my 1stT,
That is one beauty of a letter! That sounds like the summary of a romantic movie!   It would almost be worth being done wrong to get such a deep, heartfelt piece of writing in the end!

Wow Pearl thank you. I felt the same way when I picked up the book. Wish I could get pics in the post here because it is 1000x better in the bound edition. Something a woman might have in her bureau until she is 80 hopefully

Would you agree on the being invited to meet at our place a good thing (since I based my entire decision to send on it)? I know the horse is out of the barn so moot point really but just curious from your (outlier) female perspective.

I mean if you did do some crappy thing like decide the day after your "vows" and promises you didn't love him after all or wanted to go back with your ex that very day and dumped him out the blue, there would be no reason if you hadn't done him the courtesy of reaching out with an explanation in two months to wait for him to contact you nicely just to meet him in person at 'your place' to tell him what you did in person? Wait for him to show you he isn't mad so you can tell him to his face the crappy thing you did vs just ignore his text or 'I am fine thanks'

Ditto if you'd somehow moved on in eight weeks. You wouldn't ask the guy you've moved on from who reached out nicely to meet you at 'your place' in person so you could tell him that? That would be all kinds of mean and all kinds of confusing (again especially at place you met, made out, bonded) and there wouldn't even be a need for it. If you suspected he was still interested the thing to do would be 'I'm fine, seeing a great guy I thought you should know'.

I know all water under the dam  but curious from your perspective if I pulled the trigger on a decent assumption; that her asking me to meet her at our place less than a day after I reached out after two months in a way that was sweet and inviting meant something good at least.

A lot was riding on that assumption even if she just sits on it or it makes her feel good; sending t to a girl whom I did not in fact hurt but who was seeing her ex or trifling with me would for me poison the whole beauty of it. I know it is still my thoughts/feelings but I hate the thought they were wasted on the wrong person. Sorry a little negative this am on the whole thing. That was a LOT to put out there man. I was so tired all day after I realized how much it took out of me.





So


~pearl.
[/quote]

[Skip]

1T,

You're trying to determine which camp she is in. I think she has sent the signals of a person who is conflicted. The pros and the cons don't clearly point in one direction for her.  

You have been in that place too.

And time changes things. She woke up everyday for 60 days (if I have that right) deciding what she was going to do that day to take her life forward now that you were gone.

You had a choice of a series of short "feel each other out" moves or a Hail Mary, as you called it earlier, a big move. Gemsforeyes idea of flowers was a good one. I think you and pearlsw worked out the language and imagery well.  

These things are multi-dimensional and very complex - a lot of moving parts.

Skip