Feeling broken.. Hurt.. Furious.. Ugly fight.

[Enabler]

Sometimes it feels good to clear the air, as though you've actually had a good clear out of grievances. He's given you something he feels would be a solution, something that he feels in hindsight was all that he actually wanted. In reality my guess is that this wouldn't have worked and in his state of dysregulation a hug would have just felt invalidating to him and likely escalated the argument even further. The problem for you is working out at what point you can initiate operation "hug it out". I'm sure there is a time and actually it's very very common (based on the pwBPD that I have spoken with) for them to say "all I needed was a hug" but in reality it's like trying to hug a wasps nest.

The point of the tools is to allow the pwBPD to safely get their #&$% out of thier system, say their piece in a way that reduces the time they do it... .also in a manner that doesn't reward them for doing so. The time in the red zone is reduced and the time is the green zone is increased. Hugging in the red zone might be what they want internally, but my kids also want sweets when theyre throwing a tantrum... .and what message would I be giving them if I did that?  "I understand that you feel that a hug would have made you calm down, getting a hug when you feel hurt and upset is what most people want, but I don't want to hug you when you're talking to me disrespectfully, I feel threatened and unsafe. I want to hug you when I feel that you are calm and loving. Discussing your concerns in a calm way makes me feel connected with you, I want to feel connected with you."

[formflier]

The "clearing of the air" will be even more powerful if it is tied to consistent action on your part to avoid (boundaries) the behavior you don't want from him.

Is there any reason whatsoever for you to ever buy or stock the fridge with sodas for him?  Seriously... .let him solve that for himself.

And... .here is the "pop quiz".  I can think of a reason for you to buy sodas... .what would you guess that is?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I'm certainly not an advocate of giving affection to someone who is behaving badly. That reinforces his bad behavior and leaves you feeling like an object whose purpose is to ignore your own feelings and soothe his.

I know this from experience. With my first husband, I'd often have sex with him when I was internally seething with anger--hoping to calm him down.

It's his responsibility to take care of his emotions, not yours. And that you're his wife does not entitle him to take his anger out on you for insignificant issues.

I'm glad you have a counseling appointment coming up. It was good that you both could clear the air and were able to talk about big issues. Counseling will certainly help with that.

[Frankee]

Cat, Enabler, Flier... I agree with all of you.

I have pointed out to him that when he behaves in a way that is threatening or when he is taking stuff out on me, it acts as a repellent and I do not fell comfortable "just hugging him" when he's disrespecting me.  I tried to approach him at one point and he rejected me because he has to "beg" for it.  Point exactly.

I have brought up that I am not a fridge monitor.  I buy sodas and water because I want to have some also.

Counseling went really well Monday.  He opened up.  Even cried... A lot.  We talked about the fight.  He mentioned at one point that he knows I try and understands why I don't hug him at times.  He understands it is hard to just walk up to someone that is yelling at you and hug them.  That he has seen crazy people yelling and not making sense and you really can't do anything about it.

She asked if we could do a time out during these fights.  She asked him if I am this supportive at home as I am in in counseling.  He said when he gets to a certain point, he doesn't let me walk away.  That he knows I have tried to talk to him like this, but sometimes it doesn't work.  He gets this rage and he doesn't know where it comes from.

During our counseling, I went up to him and hugged him.  He was admitting to knowing that he gets so mad at me sometimes when he knows it's not my fault and that I am trying and he feels horrible.  All of this felt real.  The emotions and tears were far from fake.

When we left, we talked about the session.  I said it seemed like she didn't say much and we were the ones talking mostly.  He said, when we talk, it works a lot out.   That our marriage doesn't need counseling really, but he really needs individual.  I thought he was about to say he doesn't want to go, but he said he wants to keep going because he thinks it is good for us and it's nice to have a third person in the room to be a mediator.

[Enabler]

If you have the money to do both individual and joint therapy that could be very very productive. Accepting that we all have sensitivities and working together to put those into practice in the real world could be very rewarding for you and your relationship with H... .if of course that's what you want.

One point is that he said he reaches a point where he can't walk away. I can empathise with this. Things get said and I feel hell bent on correcting the narrative with my W. The key for me has been sitting with the emotional anguish of walking away because now is not the right time, even though every sinew in my body wants to get my point across and sort it.

You can work on calling time on arguments before they reach this point. This may mean that things don't get resolved for a bit.

[Cat Familiar]

Excellent, Frankee!

You’re doing great and it’s wonderful that he has accepted responsibility for his behavior. It will take a while for him to remember this in the moment, but it’s a great first step. And that he’s open to counseling individually.

I agree with Enabler that it would be good to do both individual and couples therapy, but you might schedule more individual sessions and maybe a monthly couples session if finances are tight.

[Frankee]

Luckily we got approved for counseling services for lower income families.  They may not be top notch counselors, but they are licensed and I actually had to be put on a wait list for them.

He may not think I need individual as much as him,  but I kind of do.  There are things that pop in my head that are still negative from past problems.  Things I have forgave him for (to some degree), but haven't forgotten.  I promised myself I wouldn't throw things in his face.  I don't want it done to me either.

Enabler, it does sound like him.  Most of the time I can sense when he's getting to that point of no return.  I try to remember the safe word, hasn't always worked, but I try.  He likes to just word vomit it all out when he gets like that.  Almost as if he will literally explode if he doesn't. 

I could go on and on about problems has, mental and physical.  He doesn't feel well in the mornings and we think he may have panic attacks that affects his left arm.  If we had full coverage insurance, I would make him go to a doctor.  His insurance covers a physical and I may have to insist he goes.  He hates doctors, but I am honestly worried that one day he will have a heart attack.

[Cat Familiar]

You've been through a lot, Frankee, especially in the last few months. I can see that those experiences, extremely difficult though they were, have helped you grow your compassion and understanding. It would be good for you have individual counseling too. It's great for everyone. No one gets through life unscathed--we all have issues to work out. You've made great progress on your own and doing counseling will give you another perspective on how much you've grown. 

[Enabler]

To add to that, T's can also act as trainers for BPD. You can focus on situational training on how to deal with high conflict people. Regardless of your path these are skills you are likely to need to hone.

[Frankee]

That would be really helpful.  He is definitely one of the high conflict.  When he gets mad, he goes for the throat.  Even today with a small inconvenience, turned into how I always ignore him, never do what he asks, how he works so hard and never gets what he wants around here.  Oh and how he'll quit his job and make us real uncomfortable so he can make sure he has everything he needs because nothing is going to change. (Another jab at me quitting my job and being a stay at home mom).

I remained calmed, looked at him when he was talking, didn't try to make excuses for the infraction he got mad about, didn't try to justify my actions.  I sit here and wonder if any of it made any difference.  He's still going to be mad.  He stormed off and is gone, just know that whole "hug" nonsense definitely did not apply to this situation.  Starting to wonder if that will really apply to any situation when he's barraging me with his word vomit.  It's like trying to hug a honey badger after you just poked it in the eyes.

[Cat Familiar]

I remained calmed, looked at him when he was talking, didn't try to make excuses for the infraction he got mad about, didn't try to justify my actions.  I sit here and wonder if any of it made any difference.  He's still going to be mad.  He stormed off and is gone, just know that whole "hug" nonsense definitely did not apply to this situation.  Starting to wonder if that will really apply to any situation when he's barraging me with his word vomit.  It's like trying to hug a honey badger after you just poked it in the eyes.

Good work, holding your center, Frankee, in the midst of his meltdown! 

And why should you need to hug the honey badger? You didn't poke it in the eyes. He did that himself.

[formflier]

  He stormed off and is gone, just know that whole "hug" nonsense definitely did not apply to this situation.  

Frankee,

There is an interesting dynamic here that I don't often see.  Most of the time I leave conflict with my wife.  Seems many other people are the ones that leave.

Yet in your situation, you seem to have found a place of calm... .that eventually upsets him enough to leave and "deal with himself".

Very interesting to me

Have you ever left him?  

I take his actions as a good sign.  At some level he realizes he can't continue and removes himself.

Thoughts?

FF

[Frankee]

Have you ever left him?  

I take his actions as a good sign.  At some level he realizes he can't continue and removes himself.

You are right cat.  He's the one that poked his own eyes out.

I walked out on him once and led to me leaving for a month.  I've tried to leave before... Very bad.  He bugs the hell out.  He's the one that always leaves.  Sometimes he goes to sit in his car, sometimes he goes to the beach for awhile.  I'm usually just happy he is gone.  Only because things are getting out of hand and he gets to far gone.

I know I am the healthy one here.  There are so many things I can say and point out, but I have learned that fact pointing or how he is being a hypocrite does no good. 

I could easily point out him texting a woman in the middle of the night to drink as way more concrete evidence he would be the one cheating.  Since he likes to make up imaginary boyfriends I am always seeing or texting.  I'm better than that.  I know my worth and I refuse to sink to his level of insecurity. 

[love4meNOTu]

Hi Frankee -

I hope you don't mind my asking, but I was curious as to what the counselors said at the women's shelter about how your kids were doing? Is that why you left the shelter, because the kids were not adjusting?

Now that you all are back home, how are they adjusting now?

I read your posts with my fingers crossed every time because I am wishing you and your kids the best.

L

[Cat Familiar]

Regardless of who leaves the encounter, it’s good to get breathing room for both parties. It takes time for emotions to settle and for pwBPD, that’s especially true.

You’re doing great, Frankee, both for having the awareness that pointing out his hypocrisy is worse than useless, and having the self control not to do that.    It took me many years to finally get to that point.

Wonderful that you keep validating yourself for being aware and secure in knowing who you are and what a valuable person you are. You are providing an excellent example for your boys as far as how to deal with difficult people.  

[Frankee]

I hope you don't mind my asking, but I was curious as to what the counselors said at the women's shelter about how your kids were doing? Is that why you left the shelter, because the kids were not adjusting?

Now that you all are back home, how are they adjusting now?

My oldest one was sad.  He kept saying when we go home.  He didn't like it there.  My bph making promises to change and begging for me to come home.  I was gone for a month and had time to reflect on a lot. 

I struggle still with the hugging thing.  He gets made when he has to "beg" for the one thing he asked me to do when he gets mad.  Keeps saying I will never do it etc etc.  I am sure I will eventually be more in tuned when I find I am escalating within myself to where I get so mad that I would rather throat punch him than hug him.  *Disclaimer*. I would never do that, just feel like it sometimes.

I know it's not too much he is asking his wife to hug and comfort him, but with him and his word vomit, it is still a work in progress.

[formflier]

Hey Frankee,

     Please be kind to yourself and your feelings.

The hugs are really important to him... .let's use that to your advantage.

Will he go to any kind of T with you?  Will he have short conversations with you about how things go when he is dysregulated?

Couple things:  When he is having a tough time and asks for  a hug... .give it... spend time with him.

When he starts with word vomit... .the hugs go away. 

Done consistently, this may cut the behavior somewhat.  Focus your talks on how he can get hugs... .stay away from much talk about how he "looses" hugs.

He'll connect the dots.

How do you think that conversation will go?



FF

[Frankee]

Well... I tried this morning.  I could tell he was in a grumpy mood.

He was fine going off to work. Then he calls.  Some noise with the truck.  I knew nothing about. He asks me if I knew about the sound.  I told him the truth.  He didn't believe me.  Kept trying to get me to confess that I knew about the noise and I just forgot to tell him.

He came unglued. Insisted I was lying, said I had no problem lying before.  Asked why couldn't I have lied to make him feel better.  Sat there dumbfounded.  I was like, you don't want me to lie to you, but you want me to lie to you now to make you feel better... but you get mad when I lie to you.  It's a double standard and when I said something, he comes back with I lied so much in the past that it's hard to believe me.

He blames me for starting a fight.  Because I wouldn't lie to him.  He wanted me to say a certain thing.  It just goes back to him holding a box and if what I say doesn't fit, he's set on getting me to say what does.

He said some things that I didn't let slide, I couldn't.  He was being a straigt up a$$.  I did yell a couple times and tell him he was being an a$$hole.

I had every right to get upset.  I had every right to feel the way I did.  I did my part though.  I held my $hit back together.

[formflier]

  Kept trying to get me to confess that I knew about the noise and I just forgot to tell him.

   

Frankee

Going forward... .I think after one instance of him disagreeing with your version... you end the conversation.

How many times did you guys go round and round about this?

What do you think you would say to him, while disengaging.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Frankee,
What I remember from some months ago is that he accused you of lying when you didn’t tell him some details about something in order that he not get upset. I think it was something inconsequential like your son not having clean pants for school.

When he found out, he was furious and accused you of lying. Certainly it was not “lying” by any consensually accepted standard—omission, yes, but not lying.

He seems to have a real trigger about lying, which makes me wonder about his own relationship with the truth.

So now he wants you to lie to him that you’ve heard the noise the truck makes in order to make him feel better?  SMH   

He wants you to hug him when he’s being a jerk and lie to him to make him feel better, yet he cruelly berates you if you omit telling him something and calls you a liar.

If you’re doing couples counseling, this would be a good topic to bring up. You might start writing a list of things like this for your own next therapy session. It’s hard to make sense out of the nonsensical.

Like formflier says, your best move is to exit the conversation ASAP.

[Enabler]

Cake and eat it

Don’t lie to me because it hurts when I find out you’re untrustworthy, don’t tell me the truth because it hurts when I hear it. Either way I’ve decided already what the truth is and I’ve had to because people have lied to me my whole life.

I don’t want you to like me, but hug me like you do and hug me like I deserve it. Hug me like a parent hugs a child... .unconditionally.

I punched you because I loved you

I was unfaithful because you didn’t love me enough

I am not in control of me, other peoples actions are... .  sure there’s something in the 20 rules of BPD about that.

[Frankee]

How many times did you guys go round and round about this?

What do you think you would say to him, while disengaging.

I definitely went more than once.  A few times until I could plainly see there was no way he would believe me.  I tried to disengage by telling him there was nothing else to say.  He asked a question, I gave him my answer.

He seems to have a real trigger about lying, which makes me wonder about his own relationship with the truth.

He gets mad I "lied" so much in the past.  When I try to do better, but it doesn't make him feel better, he gets mad.

Once I settled down, I saw right through all of it.  I did absolutely nothing wrong.  I don't care if he believes me or not.  I told the truth and I had ever right to get upset when he screaming to shut my lying mouth.

Enabler made good points.  It didn't matter if I tried to soothe him before he left, I didn't "love" him enough to put up with him screaming at me for lying about something I wasn't because he was in a bad way. 

Told me I was a horrible wife and he wanted a more compassionate woman.  I told him I am a wonderful woman and I do not deserve to be talked like that and he was being a f*ing $$hole right now.  That last part slipped out cause I had smoke coming out my ears.  He apologized, but it doesn't change how I feel.

[formflier]

  He asked a question, I gave him my answer.
 

I'm wondering if you "inserted time" between the question and the answer... .perhaps even offering a hug while you "consider his question" would be wise.


On the phone... perhaps you can consider it and talk about it later... .in person.

Important questions shouldn't get snap judgments.

A big picture to try and take on... .I try to never go "round and round" twice... and if I make it to three times... I feel it's a failure.  Personally... .I'll consider one question... .and try to give a solid answer.  On the second "round" when it's obviously repetitive... I'm "100%" going for tools of some sort.

How often does your husband ask your stuff like this... .and it's a "legitimate" question.  In my r/s... it's often enough that I need to give her one chance.

FF

 

[Frankee]

I try to never go "round and round" twice... and if I make it to three times... I feel it's a failure.  Personally... .I'll consider one question... .and try to give a solid answer.  On the second "round" when it's obviously repetitive... I'm "100%" going for tools of some sort.

How often does your husband ask your stuff like this... .and it's a "legitimate" question.  In my r/s... it's often enough that I need to give her one chance.

We were on the phone.  He asked me to question, I gave him a plain straightforward reply.  Was taken off guard when he started going off about how he didn't believe me.  So I think I will shoot for the one time and then the tools after.

He asks questions on a daily basis usually.  I pay the bills while he usually budgets.  It has been working good, mostly.  He is still bitter about me quitting my job.  However, when I offer to go back to work and he can stay home, he shoots it down real quick.

Most of the time "legitimate" questions are handled well.  Just days like this, it wasn't even about the truck really.  He was mad before the truck thing.  I honestly feel like he wanted an outlet/excuse to word vomit all these bad feelings because he couldn't contain them anymore.

[Cat Familiar]

it wasn't even about the truck really.  He was mad before the truck thing.  I honestly feel like he wanted an outlet/excuse to word vomit all these bad feelings because he couldn't contain them anymore.

You are a quick study, Frankee!    You are picking up things about BPD so much faster than I did and are able to control your own responses and use what you've learned here. Good work!   As you continue on this path, it will get easier. You've had to deal with a lot, more than many of us here, and you're doing it exceptionally well. 

[Harley Quinn]

This thread has reached it's size limit and has now been locked.  The OP is welcome to continue the discussion in a new thread.

Thanks for your understanding.