I turned off my phone for a couple hours to avoid the texts

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I keep score.  I'm a data guy.

For instance... .the recent financial "explosion" on my wife's trip about spending her card on Amazon.

That was the first direct mention/threat of divorce in at least 6 months, likely over a year.  I have a vague memory of something about 6 months ago... .but haven't been able to find further proof.

I then use that data to put a smile on my face... .and "remember"... .that things are better, even though my feelings were hurt at the time.

facts equals feelings for me... .and eventually my feelings came along... .and I waited for her to reach out in a few days... .and I was happy to hear from her.

But... .it works for me.  I can totally see how it can go bad for some, especially if you are not willing to take action... .after seeing the data.

Hehe... .FF knows... .radar altimeter nearing zero with a high "negative " (going down) VSI (vertical speed indicator) is no good.

Yeah... I like data.

FF

[formflier]

I keep score.  I'm a data guy.

For instance... .the recent financial "explosion" on my wife's trip about spending her card on Amazon.

That was the first direct mention/threat of divorce in at least 6 months, likely over a year.  I have a vague memory of something about 6 months ago... .but haven't been able to find further proof.

I then use that data to put a smile on my face... .and "remember"... .that things are better, even though my feelings were hurt at the time.

facts equals feelings for me... .and eventually my feelings came along... .and I waited for her to reach out in a few days... .and I was happy to hear from her.

But... .it works for me.  I can totally see how it can go bad for some, especially if you are not willing to take action... .after seeing the data.

Hehe... .FF knows... .radar altimeter nearing zero with a high "negative " (going down) VSI (vertical speed indicator) is no good.

Yeah... I like data.

FF

[Notwendy]

I meant keeping score with the small stuff. Like when he insists I help him take out the trash when either of us can do it on our own. It feels as if he’s evening out some scoresheet so things feel fair. Sometimes he will sit and watch me scramble around to get things done. It doesn’t occur to him to ask “need a hand”? I know better than to bring this petty stuff up but I admit when he sits and watches me i feel resentful. I don’t mind if he’s busy or wants to do something else but when he is sitting in the same room watching me I just wonder what is going on. Sometimes I wonder if he’s baiting me to get angry to start some drama.

Being told you are worthless and don’t do anything isn’t small stuff. Neither is overspending the credit card or threatening divorce. Who takes out the trash is aggravating but doesn’t cause serious harm. Verbal abuse, unreliability with money, divorce threats can’t be shrugged off.

[Enabler]

I admit when he sits and watches me i feel resentful

Sorry to micro slice your post but, you do keep a slate, for moment at least... .I’m working and you’re not.

I’m not necessarily referring to some giant scoreboard where I calculate how many times I’ve taken out the bins vs her. I guess these momentary score boards do build up though, I’m incentivised to do so in emotional reaction to her critisism and insinuation that I’m lazy... .somewhat of a maladapted defence mechanism. The score board got soo big yet the critisism continued which results in contempt.

FFs data bank is not massively different apart from that it’s a positive act of defending himself against emotional hurt. “I don’t react to divorce threats because I know they are not genuine and the last time was x and that was y months after the previous one”.

Doing what we do because we choose to do it is important... .you can choose to ask your H to take out the bins and if he chooses not to the bins might not get taken out at all. No one will die in the first instance, so ultimately we had a choice. Yes it’s a battle of attrition but we have a choice.

[Notwendy]

I get what you are saying. What I meant was I don't have a numerical count of how many times each of us did what. I acknowledge that he is our main provided and so don't expect him to do much at home. I consider that to be mainly my job.


Maybe it's a matter of consideration. Regardless of who does what, if I wasn't busy and was hanging out with someone while they are cleaning the kitchen,  I wouldn't sit there and watch them. I would pitch in and help. It isn't that he isn't working with me, it's that he's sitting there watching me, not really engaged, and with no attempt to communicate. I find that irritating. If he were in another room, I just focus on what I am doing.

[Enabler]

For many nons we are the main breadwinners and do a lot of the jobs around the home. Like you, I can't put my feet up and read the paper knowing there is stuff to be done. I see that as poor teamwork... .although is it poor teamwork when someone has chosen to put their feet up all day and read the paper knowing full well that you will relentlessly muck in when you get home? I'm starting to ignore the quimming and passive aggressive behaviour which screams "I AM BUSY DOING THINGS AND YOU ARE DOING NOTHING HUFF HUFF HUFFF HUFFFFFF <Spitting Cobra>"

[Notwendy]

I get that. That is my mother. My father was the breadwinner by day, and the parent when he came home and also on weekends. One of the things we wondered as kids was "what does Mommy do all day". Once we were able to go to friends' houses, we saw their Mommies cooking, and cleaning and taking care of the house- doing things we didn't see our mother doing. This was the era where most women didn't work outside the home so this is the model we saw.


I'm fine with the breadwinner getting a chance to relax- in fact, I encourage it. On weekends, I would get up and take the kids on outings so my H would have a chance to relax. But I also saw parents on these outings together and it felt sad that my H didn't do these things with us.

Maybe this bothered me because it reminded me of weekends when my father took us out alone and left BPD mom at home. I loved the time with my dad. I truly have empathy for the breadwinner non who has to take on far more than his/her share of keeping the family intact but I also know that this kind of time with the kids forms strong bonds. I have many great childhood memories of these times with him and really none of being with my mother. It's not fair to you Enabler, but it hasn't gone unnoticed either- what you do for your family and your kids is having an impact on your kids and your relationship with them. So is what your wife is doing.

I think you have said what is the issue- the feeling of lack of teamwork and the wish to have your efforts acknowledged. I don't have a problem with someone coming home from work and putting their feet up - I guess I just  wanted to have some teamwork on occasion, somehow it feels lonely at times but I also recognize that being the breadwinner and doing it all at home is a far more difficult situation. This is not the situation I wanted in my family and so I am very conscientious of not imposing house work or child care on my H- but felt it would be nice to hear an occasional " need a hand with that?"

I suspect my irritation at being watched is reminiscent of something from my childhood and BPD mom.

[Cat Familiar]

My first husband would let me shoulder all the work of unloading the car after I returned from a shopping trip. I got used to that.

We had a friend live with us for a few months and he was from the rural South. When he heard me return from grocery shopping, he'd run to help me unload the car, while my husband just looked confused. Over time, his helping behavior "guilted" my husband into volunteering somewhat.

I remember our friend's phrase:  "How can I be of service?"  As part of the cultural environment he was raised in, he expected to help whenever he could and his participation made work joyful.

So different than a pwBPD sullen selfishness.

Nowadays I will go to the big box store every other month and do a huge shopping trip. My current husband will hear me park the truck near the house and he will sit in his studio if he's watching TV and I will do all the unloading, except at the very end, he will pitch in a nominal amount of help--just to say he helped. Occasionally he will do a bit more.

What is shocking to me is where is the chivalry? Not that I need the help, but it would be nice. I think my friend from long ago really got a healthy ego boost by being so helpful. So what's with these guys who sit on their hands? If they knew how unattractive that behavior appeared to others, perhaps they might be willing to make a change.

[Notwendy]

I think you’ve got it Cat. It’s being unaware of someone else-self centered. I’ve also gotten the half way help so that he can say he helped. I don’t even try to discuss how it feels. It doesn’t go well. I also haul the groceries in but he will help if I ask him.

Once in college I was overwhelmed with school work. A guy friend came over- noticed I was overwhelmed and without asking -washed the pile of dishes in my sink for me and said “you look like you could use a hand “.

There were evenings when I was juggling a child with an ear infection, dinner, laundry, but didn’t hear “ you look like you could use a hand “. Once when the kids were little and I was up with one of them during the night -the next day a male coworker asked “are you OK? You look tired” and I realized I didn’t hear that at home.

I could not ever treat a spouse the way my mother did. I can’t even imagine doing so little to contribute and help out. I would think it was a terrible thing to do.

[Cat Familiar]

Yeah, I don’t get it either. If I were to see someone needing help and I just sat on my hands, I’d feel like an a*hole.

On the other hand, sometimes I’ve tried to be helpful when my husband was doing something and he took that to be invalidating, especially when he looked perplexed and didn’t know what to do.

It’s so unthinkable to me not to pitch in and help, but I do ask if he wants help sometimes before I volunteer.

[Fian]

I thought I would give the perspective of a lazy non-BPD (myself).  I do help wife with bringing in the groceries (in my mind, it is one of my chores, not me seeing a problem and pitching in), but I don't work just because I see her working. 

My wife stays at home, and I work to bring in the income.  Just as she doesn't help me do my job, I don't think it is fair for her to expect me to do hers.  I don't like working, and I work when I have to.  When she takes on a task or project without discussing with me (which is usually the way it works), I don't feel a responsibility to take on the work.  I think my wife likes working more than I do.  On the lazy side, being pushed into working more than necessary is not appealing.  However, if my wife asks me for help on a project I will normally say yes (she usually asks for tasks that require strength or height), but I don't normally volunteer.

Anyway, I am not saying this to justify the behavior of your spouse, but to point out that not all character flaws are BPD related.

[Cat Familiar]

Hey Fian,
I would certainly not classify you as "lazy" since you bring home the bread and butter. And you deserve time to recharge after working at your job all day. I agree that projects that your wife undertakes on her own are not your responsibility and you're right not to volunteer.

I've had animals, small as well as livestock, for decades and when my husband and I got together, I was hoping that he would occasionally be able to help me with feeding when I was ill or injured. Well, fast forward 15 years and he still hasn't a clue how to feed any of them, nor has he volunteered, except once, the day I returned home from the hospital after hitting my head and having a concussion.

Then I had to give him detailed instruction as to how to do feed the goats, sheep and horses. And for the days following, even though I was seeing double and could barely navigate the uneven terrain, I was back to doing my tasks without an offer of help.

This is what Notwendy and I were addressing: the inability of pwBPD to be aware of our needs and offer a hand when we are overwhelmed. It's quite different than a non's need for recharge time after a long day of work.

Cat

[Notwendy]

Fian - my H felt the same way- that his job was his, mine was the house. This didn’t vary whether or not I was working too ( and I’ve done full time, part time, and SAHM at different times in our marriage.) He’s the main wage earner.

I’ve been supportive of his need for down time. I’d say our arrangement is traditional and I don’t expect him to do housework.

As cat said - there is a difference between a division of work and just being tuned in to your partner. If a child has an ear ache, or mom is under the weather- a simple “need a hand?”’is appreciated once in a while. Although I can’t reciprocate at his job exactly -if he needed a hand at something else I’d be willing to help. I understand the need for tough boundaries in this area if the stay at home spouse has BPD but I don’t push boundaries like that. It’s important to me to pull my share at home. I grew up with BPD Mom doing very little to help out and don’t want to do that. A hand once in a while would not result in taking on a job on a regular basis.

[jsgirl360]

Notwendy and Cat Familiar... .I relate so much when reading your posts.  

From my experience living with both my husband and his 2 adult sons, all diagnosed with BPD, I couldn't agree more that it's the self-centeredness related to BPD that prevents them from caring that someone may need help, for example by bringing in groceries. I do believe the person with BPD is "aware" that the other person may need help... .they have eyes and ears to see us pulling in the driveway. But the bottom line, at least in my experience... .is due to lack of empathy, they can't offer a care in the world.

This even held true when my husband's oldest was staying with us completely rent-free, also being cooked meals on a daily basis. One day, my husband actually asked him why he doesn't help with the dishes sometime. His son insisted that he washed dishes every day! As it turns out, he meant he rinsed off "his" plate after each meal. In his world, his was the only plate that existed!

Back to the original post by FF. I'm glad to hear that things have settled.  I agree with the other posters that inability to feel empathy for a partner and general BPD self centeredness might have played a role in wife's reaction.

My brother passed away back in 2013 at 28 years old. We were very close, and I was grieving deeply. My BPD husband could not tolerate all the attention that was being given to the upcoming funeral and my late brother. The behavior included throwing a hot iron against the wall (we were trying to prepare dress clothes for the funeral). Finally, the night before the funeral, he told me he wanted a divorce... .because he knew that was the most hurtful thing he could possibly say at the time and he was desperate.  My brother's death was just getting too much attention. Boy, did that mess me up. Since that day, I have not been able to feel emotionally connected to husband. I believe it's a coping mechanism my brain did subconsciously, to protect me. I wonder if others with BPD partner experienced the same?

[Notwendy]

I’m curious -with the division of jobs of wife at home and husband at work. The husband can help ( it he chooses ) but the wife can’t go to the husband’s workplace and do his job. If the husband helps with “her” job - what could the wife do to reciprocate?

To me - this creates an impossible imbalance. It’s a situation that I try to avoid by not asking or expecting help.

It did bother me to see my parents’ situation. My father worked and my mother really didn’t do anything. I wondered how she could do that and still be ok with herself?

If my H offered to help me once in a while I would be very appreciative but unless I could do something in return I would not be comfortable only being on the taking end.

[Notwendy]

Jacobs girl - I am so sorry about the loss of your brother. From my experience - anything that diverts my attention from my H is triggering. It’s perceived as rejection or purposeful withdrawal of attention. That gets you on the drama triangle as persecutor. They are in victim mode and hurting so they lash out at you.

We assume they would understand the reason - especially an extreme one like grief but they only feel hurt and see you as the cause. Feelings are facts.

[Cat Familiar]

Wow, FF, we really did a hijack on your thread here.  

So sorry for the loss of your father and your wife's inability to empathize with your grief for more than a moment. As those of us who've processed these big losses know, grief comes in waves, often unexpectedly by the reminder of something your loved one might have said, worn, done, a place you've visited, a scent, a favorite meal. I used to walk in the cookie aisle in the grocery store and catch myself reaching for the type of cookies I always bought my mother, then I'd remember that she was no longer here.

Jacobsgirl,    I bet you really miss your brother and I'm very sorry for your loss of someone who cared so deeply for you. It's so hard to deal with grief when we don't have the support of the person who should have our backs. You asked if anyone had been in a similar situation.

Well, my dad was on his deathbed in the hospital, so I flew hundreds of miles to be there. The day after he died, as I was consoling my mother, the phone rang. It was my soon-to-be-ex-husband who told me that I had to fly home immediately or he would commit suicide. I had just made the funeral arrangements, so all the necessary questions were freshly in my mind: burial or cremation, embalmment or refrigeration, viewing or no? I reacted far differently than I ever had before to his suicide threats and that was the last one I ever heard. However, his new girlfriend told me that he was holding her "hostage with suicide threats" so that was part of a strategy he was well accustomed to using.

Like you, something within me broke at that point. I was already well down the path of leaving that relationship, but when he couldn't respect my grieving process for even a day, well, I found a level of disrespect I never knew I could feel for another human being.

[jsgirl360]

This quote intrigued me. This is my first attempt to quote from a post... .so I apologize if this doesn't come out right:
---
Here is the thing.  I know she is not capable of that level of intimacy.  I should have refused the conversation.   

Perhaps I'll feel differently after a good nights sleep... who knows.

How someone can say such horrible things... .and then complain about no emotional intimacy... .
---

This made me wonder if pwBPD's are actually aware of their lack of ability to achieve a high level of emotional intimacy.

Back when I used to attempt emotionally intimate conversations with my husband,  I was met with anger/rage or even "fight or flight mode".  For this reason I don't even try anymore.

I do have friends with whom I can be emotionally intimate.  I used to invite these friends over the house. We would talk and laugh. He never attempted to engage in our conversations, even when we spoke to him... .he would just stare at his iPad (something he always does when I speak to him.) Eventually,  he would become visibly angry and slam doors. My friends would become uncomfortable, and for this reason they no longer visit.

Days later, once he calmed down, he would complain of feeling "all alone in a room full of people". Of course, he would blame us for that despite us inviting him into the conversation several times.  It was almost as if he was lamenting his inability to connect.

I apologize for all the ramblings,  I'm not sure if this is the right place... . have a great weekend.

[Notwendy]

Inability to have intimate conversations is common. But just because someone can’t doesn’t mean they don’t want to. I also pushed for this and it didn’t go well. It’s a dilemma because the less emotional I am at home the better we get along. I know he misses it and I do too but I don’t miss the drama. I wonder if the drama is a substitute for intimacy? It does create high emotions and focus. But I choose the peaceful coexistence. We do well if we keep to our roles. I’m involved with kids, home, my job. He’s got his. We can talk about most topics that are not personal. We have similar values about family, marriage, religion which helps as we don’t have conflicts about child rearing.

Since my situation is relativity mild compared to some other situations, I was able to reduce the drama using the tools on this board, counseling , 12 steps codependency. He’s a lot more relaxed, and I learnd to use radical acceptance. We have our strong and not strong points. Intimate talking isn’t a option I want to try at the moment . Maybe one day but not now. Its a journey so who knows I might try again when I feel ready but I know it will be limited, if it’s even possible.

[formflier]

Please... .keep this thread going... I'll keep going on this thread/thought... .and I love hijacks... so... .whatever!

I'm starting a new thread for a new topic.

Apparently my wife's brother is in town... .apparently been planned for a year (yeah... right)... .so... .the rules go out the window... .the world must bow down to him... .all work stops... .

FF