Triggers, trauma, & marriage counseling

[Depression = 72% of members]

Wools,
You had a question about comparing journaling your thoughts versus sitting quietly observing feelings. The journaling helps to process thoughts and some feelings, especially if you are present and calm, and feeling your body sensations. The sitting quietly is actually observing feelings and shuts off as much as possible our cognitive mind. Observing feelings without judgment allows the feelings to move through us rather than stay stuck. The sitting quietly is actually a form of mindfulness, and journaling can be depending on how it is done.

[zachira]

Wools,
You had a question about comparing journaling your thoughts versus sitting quietly observing feelings. The journaling helps to process thoughts and some feelings, especially if you are present and calm, and feeling your body sensations. The sitting quietly is actually observing feelings and shuts off as much as possible our cognitive mind. Observing feelings without judgment allows the feelings to move through us rather than stay stuck. The sitting quietly is actually a form of mindfulness, and journaling can be depending on how it is done.

[Woolspinner2000]

Thank you, Zachira, that was quite helpful. I can see that each aspect is different. Observing our feelings is one of the things the MC suggested, and not to focus on the feelings of the other. Now that's a new one for me, to imagine that I can focus entirely on my own feelings. Who knew?

Tomorrow we go back for another MC session. I'm not looking forward to it though. DH and I had a rough interaction mid week that sent me spinning. The accusations, and what is real and what isn't? What's mine to own and what isn't? DH plans to cover some of this in session. My friend said to think of it as a way of helping me to know if DH will change or not, rather than being afraid of me being put on trial. Good reminder.

I did have time to step back and think over this past weekend when I went to visit our S23 and spend time with him. I felt as if I could almost forget what was going on back home. I think I was able to stay present for much of the time I was gone and enjoy my son.

Today I was thinking that if this were any other relationship other than a marriage, I'd be putting up some strong boundaries to not being around someone who treats me the way DH treats me. That was a startling thought, but also a very honest and truthful one. It helps me put our situation into a different perspective.

Wools

[Harri]

I think your friend is smart to tell you to look at your hubby talking as a way to gather information you can use to choose your path.  That right there puts you in a much better position Wools.  Don't go in there with a sense of fear.  Some anxiety is okay though... .use the adrenaline to keep your head clear!   

Let us know how it goes.

[Panda39]

Today I was thinking that if this were any other relationship other than a marriage, I'd be putting up some strong boundaries to not being around someone who treats me the way DH treats me. That was a startling thought, but also a very honest and truthful one. It helps me put our situation into a different perspective.

Wools

I would just sit with this and with everything else that is developing for awhile, so you can get to that big picture of your situation, and so you know all the options... .right now it's a fact finding mission.  I'm with Harri don't go in there with a sense of fear, how about with some curiosity instead. 

Take Care,
Panda39

[Learning2Thrive]

I would just sit with this and with everything else that is developing for awhile, so you can get to that big picture of your situation, and so you know all the options... .right now it's a fact finding mission.  I'm with Harri don't go in there with a sense of fear, how about with some curiosity instead.  

Keep CALM
and be a
Curious Llama

Sorry, the Beautiful Beagle and Pretty Panda planted the meme seed in my puppy brain.  

  L2T

[Panda39]

Keep CALM
and be a
Curious Llama

Sorry, the Beautiful Beagle and Pretty Panda planted the meme seed in my puppy brain.  

  L2T

        Silly Pup! 

[Woolspinner2000]

I think you guys are great cheerleaders to have.   

I went to MC pretty relaxed, and mentally kept reminding myself that I wasn't on trial. DH definitely put me on trial though, but I remembered I'd heard most of it before. I did my best to answer questions and offer thoughts when the T spoke to me but tried to be conscious of letting him run the show. He asked good questions and was quite direct with DH. At one time he looked at DH and asked how well it was going for him when he attacks me. There was no answer.

I went away feeling okay about it all, but there was no resolution. There was realization for me that DH believes what he does, regardless of anything else. He was projecting, even going as far as to say that I have bankrupted the (his) company. That was a new one for me to hear. I have not heard much from him about his thoughts in reflection since then, but I keep expecting to hear the other shoe drop and for his anger to come out because of what I shared. However, my individual T said he wouldn't be surprised if DH says nothing because he was able to put me on trial and accomplish what he intended. I hadn't thought about that, but I do know the pattern is for DH to unload his frustrations on me with accusations, and then he's good for a few days until the next need to do the same thing again. It's a pattern. I guess we'll see what the rest of the week holds.

I feel as if I'm detaching though. During the interaction at home and at the MC it was suggested by me that perhaps it's time to separate our finances. DH seems to agree. There'd be less conflict over money that way. I had the expectation that he would continue to take care of me, the way I see a marriage to be, helping one another. Yet his focus is not there but on this friend of his and the building that he is fixing up.

My T pointed out some good things to me today when I saw him. He said I'm not freezing or fawning anymore, and I must say that he is right! That was exciting to realize, and how very different than ever before!  I was feeling stupid for getting pulled into the drama with DH midweek, but I was reminded that we are going to be patient and kind as I learn and go forward. Otherwise I give in to shame. The reminders are good and help to keep me on track.

Wools

[Turkish]

That's a good way to put it,  that when someone accuses you,  the accusee is "put on trial." 

[Harri]

Woolsie    It sounds like things went well.  

At one time he looked at DH and asked how well it was going for him when he attacks me.

I got flashes of Dr. Phil asking "How's that working for ya?"  Not making light of it though.  I think it is an awesome question.  The fact that hubby had no answer says, to me, he was not prepared to be challenged.  I am glad your MC was watching your back.  

Do you both ride to MC together and leave together?  If so, how is that?  

Resolution may be slow to happen if ever.  Either way, you will have your decision and you get to determine your own timeline.  Do you think he was referring to the money you took out of the joint savings in response to his blowing an equal amount?  Sorry, I might be confusing this with a thread you did on the Law board - oops.  Sorry, I just like things to make sense.  Regardless though, it sounds like an exaggeration.  

I feel as if I'm detaching though. During the interaction at home and at the MC it was suggested by me that perhaps it's time to separate our finances. DH seems to agree. There'd be less conflict over money that way. I had the expectation that he would continue to take care of me, the way I see a marriage to be, helping one another. Yet his focus is not there but on this friend of his and the building that he is fixing up.

I am so proud of you for taking your future into your own hands Wools.  That is so big and so wonderful.  

More awesome stuff to read from you:  

My T pointed out some good things to me today when I saw him. He said I'm not freezing or fawning anymore, and I must say that he is right! That was exciting to realize, and how very different than ever before!  I was feeling stupid for getting pulled into the drama with DH midweek, but I was reminded that we are going to be patient and kind as I learn and go forward. Otherwise I give in to shame. The reminders are good and help to keep me on track.

Well, let me add my voice to your T's and say you are no longer freezing and fawning Wools!  Seriously, I have tears of joy in my eyes for you.  <dabs with a tissue>

Want to know how I view this?    

I was feeling stupid for getting pulled into the drama with DH midweek

Wools, we are human and interacting with people who know us and know all of our buttons just like we do theirs.  It is natural to get drawn in for a bit... .if we had no reaction to it, we would not be human.  What counts is that you did not *stay* in it.  It is not like it was some small thing he poked at.  It was a big issue.  When someone hits a sore spot we will react.  It is how we respond that matters.  And you did so well.

   

[Fie]

Hello Wools  


I wanted to send you some encouraging words because I know how important this stage of your life is for you ... this is huge. And like the rest of the members here I am proud of you.

I agree with what Harri said "Wools, we are human". Don't forget that you are not supposed to be perfect. Part of your journey is I think to let that idea go a bit ... Could I be correct ?

You are mentioning you don't want to become bitter towards your H. I understand what you mean, being bitter is not exactly something we want for ourselves ... yet, I'd say, don't expect too much of yourself. If you'll become bitter, you'll become bitter, and it would be human too. And it wouldn't mean you'd be bitter forever, you would work with it and overcome it.

And also, being bitter doesn't mean being angry. Being angry and admitting it can be very healthy I think. It only becomes unhealthy if we express it in an unhealthy way. I think you have every right to feel angry with your husband. It's only an emotion and there are not really any 'good' or 'bad' emotions.

xxx

[Woolspinner2000]

Harri,

  I am glad your MC was watching your back.

Me too. He definitely does. That being said, he does a good job of balancing but definitely is not afraid of asking the hard questions of either of us. It's interesting to me how strongly DH believes what he does about me and what he says I've done. My T says that there is some truth in most of what DH says, but it isn't the whole truth, and that's part of what makes his comments all so darn confusing to me. I'm glad others see the truth more clearly than I do because they help me along the way.

Do you both ride to MC together and leave together?

We drive separately since I am coming from work. I usually have to leave work early to meet him there. I'm glad that we don't ride together actually. I find I need space afterwards to be alone.

Do you think he was referring to the money you took out of the joint savings in response to his blowing an equal amount?

Yes, that would be the amount. For the first division of $ he agreed to equal amounts so that he could do as he wished with his portion. He said he'd probably take out more later, and I said then I'd get an equal amount again. He did nod his head in agreement. The problem with the 2nd withdrawal was that he did it without informing me, and it was months later that I discovered missing $ from the account. When I learned what had happened (March 2017), I reminded him I had an equal portion coming. He didn't believe I would go through with it and move it. I am 99% certain that all that was left would be gone by now if I had not moved it to safety. That is what he said caused the near bancruptcy, the fact that I got an equal portion. Actually it wasn't equal. I took less, about 15% less. He has spent all that he had and needs more to complete his project. If he starts making some $ once he finishes this little building, it will take approximately 8 to 10 years to regain just the costs of the spent money.

Last night DH said he noticed I was kind to him on several different things. He didn't say what they were, but I had to pause and think. The strange thing is that I did nothing out of my normal pattern of behavior to be kind. I am just a kind person. So it's puzzling to me, but it's a possibility that since he 'put me in my proper place,' maybe he is seeing my kindness, but it doesn"t mean there's any change. He may see me as 'deciding' to be nice to him now that he said what he did. I don't know. I suppose time will tell.

Well, let me add my voice to your T's and say you are no longer freezing and fawning Wools!  Seriously, I have tears of joy in my eyes for you.  <dabs with a tissue> 

This is so sweet of you!   I was sincerely so filled with wonder when my T pointed this out to me! It's even bigger when combined with the fact that DH is my last big hurdle in relationship struggles, and I am overcoming (despite a stress fracture in my foot that truly is stress related and also having a bad cold right now-my immune system is bogged down). Not that my struggles are over, no, they will be there, but this is equal to my deceased uBPDm type of conflict interaction.

Wools, we are human and interacting with people who know us and know all of our buttons just like we do theirs.  It is natural to get drawn in for a bit... .if we had no reaction to it, we would not be human.  What counts is that you did not *stay* in it.  It is not like it was some small thing he poked at.  It was a big issue.  When someone hits a sore spot we will react.  It is how we respond that matters.  And you did so well. 

Very good point. Fie also said something that I want to ponder on,

Don't forget that you are not supposed to be perfect. Part of your journey is I think to let that idea go a bit ... Could I be correct ?

Hmm... .to be continued.

 
Wools

[Kwamina]

At one time he looked at DH and asked how well it was going for him when he attacks me. There was no answer.

I like this direct approach!

There was realization for me that DH believes what he does, regardless of anything else. He was projecting, even going as far as to say that I have bankrupted the (his) company. That was a new one for me to hear.

Sounds like your husband is living in Lalaland and I'm not talking about the movie.

However, my individual T said he wouldn't be surprised if DH says nothing because he was able to put me on trial and accomplish what he intended. I hadn't thought about that, but I do know the pattern is for DH to unload his frustrations on me with accusations, and then he's good for a few days until the next need to do the same thing again. It's a pattern. I guess we'll see what the rest of the week holds.

I think it was good you stayed calm. Sounds like he basically was portraying himself as the victim casting you as the persecutor. Then not surprisingly he himself quickly moved to persecutor. Good thing is that neither you nor your MC took the bait to persecute back or rescue him. Your husband might have felt good afterwards, but all he did was expose his extreme positions on the Karpman Drama Triangle to the MC while you remained calm and maintained a neutral central position.

I feel as if I'm detaching though. During the interaction at home and at the MC it was suggested by me that perhaps it's time to separate our finances.
... .
My T pointed out some good things to me today when I saw him. He said I'm not freezing or fawning anymore, and I must say that he is right!

Sounds like your husband is having less and less of a mental hold on you, I would say that's a good thing. Separating your finances seems like a very wise move to me considering your husband's pattern of making very unwise and very solo financial decisions.

Yet his focus is not there but on this friend of his and the building that he is fixing up.

It's not pleasant that it is this way, but it is what it is. Let his focus be on fixing up his building, while you're focus is on building up yourself  I am quite certain that your investment will have a higher rate of return

[Woolspinner2000]

 It's been a week since our last MC visit. DH has not brought up anything that I mentioned in session. He has focused on the MC himself and made some comments about him that are not necessarily positive. When someone disagrees with DH, as with a pwBPD, there is a tendency to reject back. Hmm... .sometimes it is way too eerily familiar the behaviors I see in DH. The tools I learn here are so very helpful.

I mentioned to him this morning that since we have another MC session this week that we had better talk about the dividing the finances, what that might look like. I shared by saying, "These are my thoughts" and kept it very low key. I even asked some questions, "What do you think about considering this... ." No attacks or big confrontations. The idea is to get us thinking about it without the defensiveness. He is thinking-no response yet.

A couple of days ago I was copying something and was near his computer. He told me some of what he was typing on his 'list' of things to discuss, and it was very easy to read the lines he had written down. I nearly   at the first one:

I learned my passive aggressiveness from Wools.

Perhaps I'll share more of the others later. What I realize is that these are classic projections. There are a couple of places in the Bible that say "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." I recently read something that has helped me to understand.

Since the abuser feels justified in his behavior and seems to have no comprehension of its effects, we can assume only that he is acting out his repressed feelings and is, therefore, acting compulsively... .The helpless, painful feelings of childhood that "must not exist' and "must not be felt" do exist and, if not felt, are acted out. A long time ago in the abuser's childhood, he closed the door on these feelings. To survive in childhood he could do no less. His feeling self, nonetheless, lived on behind closed doors. This feeling child within was, psychologically speaking, locked away in a tomb of agony. The longer the child within is unrecognized, the more enraged it becomes, and consequently, the more rage the abuser acts out. Alice Miller tells us As long as this child within is not allowed to become aware of what happened to him or her, a part of his or her emotional life will remain frozen, and sensitivity to the humiliations of childhood will therefore be dulled. All appeals to love, solidarity, and compassion will be useless if this crucial prerequisite of sympathy and understanding is missing. (Alice Miller, For Your Own Good, 1983) Typically, even though the partner tries to explain to her mate what bothers her, the abuse continues. Appeals to the abuser's compassion are fruitless, because the abuser in not empathetic... .Without empathy, the abuser cannot be sensitive to his partner's anguish.

by Patricia Evans from The Verbally Abusive Relationship, 3rd edition.

Now I also know that part of the reason that MC has been so intense for me is because we are talking about the elephants in the room. They've been there all along, and now we are talking about them. Things are no longer avoided and hidden but open and in front of us. I expect that this week will expose more elephants as the projection continues.

Lastly I wanted to mention another step in this journey, one that is about finding belonging as is written in the book Loveable that I've mentioned in a couple posts. The author mentioned something that struck me deeply:

Belonging usually begins by letting go of the relationships that are most toxic to us--the ones in which we are seen as something less than we are--because when someone can't see the goodness in us, it doesn't meant they're bad, but it does mean they're bad for us. We can't change anyone's opinion of us, because we can't convince anyone to see us differently-we can only give them opportunities to change and chances to see us for who we really are. However, when they don't or won't or can't, the thing we can control is what we do with the relationship... .perhaps the most painful part is allowing the people we love to keep their hurtful opinions about us. If we don't, we will remain fused to them by our desire to convince them of our goodness. We have to accept there are people who don't think much of us, who dislike us, who see us in ways we are not. And we have to let them be wrong about us. This is how we move away from the people who leave us lonely and create space for the people to whom we'll eventually belong.

I find all of these words to be so applicable to not only my relationship with DH but also to that with my uBPDm. It's the radical acceptance, the letting go of what I falsely hope will be. It's focusing on me and my health and taking care of me. Some needs that we have as humans can only be found by healing them within ourselves and then we can share with others glimpses of the journey we took to find that healing. Thank you for journeying with me.

 
Wools

[zachira]

I applaud you in being respectful and kind to your husband while setting healthy boundaries with him. Most people behave better when in the presence of someone who respects herself/himself and others, though with people with a personality disorder, it may bring out the worst in him/her. It takes a long time to be your best self when in the presence of someone who is mistreating you. I am still working on this. 

[Harri]

Hi Wools.  It sounds like you are really moving along and doing well in spite of this being so hard and painful.

Alice Miller is a favorite of mine.  I read several of her books years ago and they helped a lot in helping me gain the courage to face the past and work with my own inner kids.  I also like what you quoted from the book Lovable.  It speaks to me of radical acceptance and mindfulness.

One thing to be careful with:

A couple of days ago I was copying something and was near his computer. He told me some of what he was typing on his 'list' of things to discuss, and it was very easy to read the lines he had written down. I nearly  Laugh out loud at the first one:

I get it, I really do.  It seems so incredible that someone can be so clueless about their own self.  I just worry given the way your husband seems to be repressed yet controlled and deliberate.  He is not clueless.   It is hard to hide that "I nearly laughed out loud" from someone.  Again, I get it, but i am concerned for you.  A lot of times, reaching this point means you are feeling contempt... .and once that happens there is no going back (in most cases).  All of that is okay, I just want to see if that resonates with you.  Tune into your feelings and see what is going on.  

In the meantime, we are here with you.  Thank you for sharing this very painful journey and letting us see you grow.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri,

I wanted to respond to your thought:

It is hard to hide that "I nearly laughed out loud" from someone.  Again, I get it, but i am concerned for you.  A lot of times, reaching this point means you are feeling contempt... .

I looked up the definition of contempt to make sure I understood. Sometimes things go right over my head, you know. I am thankful to say that when I said I nearly laughed out loud, I wasn't meaning that I felt contempt. I was thinking of how incredulous such a comment was, that I caused his PA; nothing about looking at him with disdain or disgust. I'm glad I didn't laugh because that would not have been wise given how seriously he believes these things. On my own I can just shake my head in wonder.

Thanks for watching out for me though, and I appreciate your concern. Definitely not a wise place to go with DH or anyone else for that matter.

 
Wools

[Harri]

Thanks for considering my observation Wools.  Sometimes it is hard to tease out the underlying emotions.

I'm glad I didn't laugh because that would not have been wise given how seriously he believes these things.

Yes.  It would have escalated things with him regardless of your intention given how invested he is in his own beliefs.

Thanks for watching out for me though, and I appreciate your concern.

Always Woolite. 

[Feeling Better]

Hi Wools

I want to thank you so much for posting this:

Belonging usually begins by letting go of the relationships that are most toxic to us--the ones in which we are seen as something less than we are--because when someone can't see the goodness in us, it doesn't meant they're bad, but it does mean they're bad for us. We can't change anyone's opinion of us, because we can't convince anyone to see us differently-we can only give them opportunities to change and chances to see us for who we really are. However, when they don't or won't or can't, the thing we can control is what we do with the relationship... .perhaps the most painful part is allowing the people we love to keep their hurtful opinions about us. If we don't, we will remain fused to them by our desire to convince them of our goodness. We have to accept there are people who don't think much of us, who dislike us, who see us in ways we are not. And we have to let them be wrong about us. This is how we move away from the people who leave us lonely and create space for the people to whom we'll eventually belong.

I have saved this for future reference because it means so much to me, it will help me come to terms with the fact that my uBPD son doesn’t want me in his life. It will help me to let go.

Thank you so much x 

[Woolspinner2000]

FeelingBetter,

I'm so glad it is helpful.   I also need to remember it and feel as if I need to write it on my walls sometimes. If we can learn to apply the wisdom in those words, then we will learn what it is to be free.

 
Wools

[Learning2Thrive]

FeelingBetter,

I'm so glad it is helpful.   I also need to remember it and feel as if I need to write it on my walls sometimes. If we can learn to apply the wisdom in those words, then we will learn what it is to be free.

 
Wools

Woolsie,

I just want to tell you how your learning and thoughts inspire me... .and I’m certain, many others. 

   L2T

[Harri]

How's it going Wools?  Just checking in on you.

[Woolspinner2000]

Thanks for asking. I've been hermiting (or is it waif-ing as Turkish says?). Avoiding, 'don't want to talk about it' kinda mode.

Sighs.

MC was rough for me last week. Left myself wide open to attack, but knowing that to DH they are not attacks but facts and his beliefs. I encouraged him to discuss his list with the MC and I. The first item was about finances and puzzled me, so I took a pass on responding to it, just listened. The second topic we had discussed at home briefly, but in session I learned that my being inquisitive and asking questions had put him on the defensive. The MC handled it well, addressing that DH was presuming things that I didn't mean at all. I asked questions because I wanted to know DH's thoughts, and I wasn't in a bad mood or anything when I asked them.

That led into the 3rd topic on his list. He said I had been assertive when we met with the accountant because I took the paper that was being slid over to either one of us to sign. Apparently I had an agenda to prove and was trying to be in control. (I signed it because I had signed for our son last year and figured I might as well sign for it again this year.) He said I had done this 3 years ago too with someone else. I don't remember some of what he remembers because these things are not of consequence to me. DH is not my judge, thankfully, and I need to remember that and be at peace within myself.

One evening this week he brought up the money I moved, and that I took over control of the bill paying. I responded by saying I have a need, to hear something positive such as, "Wools, you are working so hard and doing a great job. Thank you for all that you are doing." He wanted to say something positive, and I asked him to wait until tomorrow so that he wasn't repeating what I had just shared. Then he was up nearly all night thinking. A couple days later he said he needs me to say things a second time to him if I want them to get in his head.

Tonight he seemed very depressed when I arrived home from work. He said he doesn't have enough $ to finish up the electrical so he's going to take a cash advance on his credit card to pay for it. He's never done anything like that. I am concerned, very much so. I will not try to control it or step in at all.

One day during the week when my D29 and son in law were here, DH's non verbals were scary, dark and angry. I asked if he was bored (he was just standing there), but he answered no. Then he sat and stared at the table, eventually going outside to trim some bushes. That night he told me he'd had an experience that he'd never had before, and as he talked I realized he was referring to this time I just mentioned. He said he had a feeling of not caring about anything and was staring at the table. When he started working on the bushes he began to feel better. I wondered if he was disassociating?

My T reminded me that I am worthy of being treated well. What in the world do I do with that thought? I know that from my childhood I have felt that abuse was somehow deserved. It doesn't have to do with trying to accept it in order to change someone anymore. It has to do with some belief that says why would I expect anything else? I'm pondering these thoughts that need exploring. They are adaptations to my childhood and my uBPDm I know.

Wools

[Harri]

Hi Woolsie.  Thanks for sharing that.  I know it was hard but you did it.

My T reminded me that I am worthy of being treated well. What in the world do I do with that thought? I know that from my childhood I have felt that abuse was somehow deserved. It doesn't have to do with trying to accept it in order to change someone anymore. It has to do with some belief that says why would I expect anything else? I'm pondering these thoughts that need exploring. They are adaptations to my childhood and my uBPDm I know.

Breaking down these deep seated beliefs is so difficult.  If you know nothing else in close intimate relationships you won't expect anything else.  The good news is you are learning and you are breaking down these old beliefs.  You are worthy of being treated well.  You don't need to shrink down and make yourself small anymore so that your husband can feel strong and powerful.  He is going through a big change but that is for his to learn to deal with and you are doing a beautiful job os letting him deal with his stuff.

This is so hard and painful but so worth it  It is exhausting too so keep taking care of you.  Avoiding is okay sometimes.  Just saying no I've had enough today can be a huge help.

[Woolspinner2000]

This evening I was informed that DH went to the bank and got a loan. Small and in his name. I only listened. There's nothing for me to say.

  If you know nothing else in close intimate relationships you won't expect anything else. 

Harri, this is quite true and a good observation. Thank you. It helps me to make sense of some of the reasons why I don't know anything else.

He asked me to attend an event with him tonight which I did. My little inner Woolsie's are all anxious because this was a place where he'd gotten after me before for being too assertive. I was merely asking questions related to my field of expertise back then, a few years ago, medical information. So my inner ones remembered that tonight and the things DH had said at MC last week. I sat off by myself and wanted to hide. If I made myself invisible would that work? 

I find myself becoming quite afraid of saying or doing anything if I am with him, or in a group with him, or even alone at home, because I will just continue to be evaluated for each comment I make, and every action I take or don't will possibly be questioned. They are strong feelings at the moment. I guess I need to sit alone with my little ones and try to see what they are feeling too and perhaps learn why.

I'm heading out of town tomorrow to visit my aunts and am glad to be going away. I don't like feeling this unsettled.

Wools

[Turkish]

I sat off by myself and wanted to hide. If I made myself invisible would that work? 

That's sad.  Do you think that your H is afraid that you'll "one up" him in social settings? Has the marriage dynamic been,  "that's my Little Wife?" Better seen and rarely heard?

[Panda39]

I see where this is sad, but it actually makes me mad!  I'm sure it's triggering all of those feelings I had of not being able to be me, but having to conform to someone else's view of what I should be.  The pain and frustration of not being allowed to be me because I was trying to please my mother... .(bring on the Psychiatrist Couch, Panda with mommy issues    )

It makes me mad that you felt you could not be you, that you had to be a faded, more invisible Woolspinner, I get that it was to keep conflict at bay and that compromise is part of marriage but this isn't about compromising on where you will stay on vacation, or what car you want to buy... .this is compromising who you are. (and who you are is pretty darn fantastic!)

IMO who you are should not be compromised... .it took me a long to get to that realization for myself and I am much happier for it.  Why would I ever be happy being some else... .someone I'm not.  Why would I be happy having friendships and relationships with other people based on someone I'm not.  It's wonderful that they like that other person, but what about me? The real me? What about the real Wools?  I see your empathy here for your husband and his feelings (that is very Wools) but at what cost to yourself?

Okay done with outraged Panda rant... .

It's just that I think your pretty darn great and you shouldn't have to hide it for anybody!

Panda39

[Woolspinner2000]

Turkish,

Do you think that your H is afraid that you'll "one up" him in social settings? Has the marriage dynamic been,  "that's my Little Wife?" Better seen and rarely heard?

I think he is afraid that I'll come across better than him in certain settings, especially where it may be a place that he considers more his territory. I think I am seen as a non individual, one incapable of having ideas separate from those of his own.

Thanks Panda39 for this:

It makes me mad that you felt you could not be you, that you had to be a faded, more invisible Woolspinner

This really is the place I had to come to, the recognizing that I could not be myself when with DH. How far do I let that extend to? It's not a healthy or good place to be at all, and I was deeply grieving that loss of myself or the realization that I would have to give up me in order to make it work. I felt as if I was dying a slow death inside myself.

We don't go back to MC until mid Sept. I may not go back, or I may go but have boundaries that if the lists come up again, I may walk out of the room. Still not sure.

In our local newspaper yesterday there was an article about four people charged with shorting tax payments from auto sales. It's the man my DH has been involved with. This is heavy stuff, and indictments were issued for 4 people including this man who is friends with my DH and this man's wife. There are felony counts involved. I hope to ask an attorney some questions this week. I can't help but feel that there will be fallout from this for DH although he is not a partcipant in the charges.

What a mess.

Wools

[Turkish]

I think he is afraid that I'll come across better than him in certain settings, especially where it may be a place that he considers more his territory. I think I am seen as a non individual, one incapable of having ideas separate from those of his own.

This may indicate shame, like he has an issue that people may not view him as #1 as he desires to be viewed.  Insecure.  

If you're not a ringleader in that scheme,  you'll be ok.  Hopefully the investigators won't come to your home,  but even if they do you sound like you'll be ok. 

How do you feel about that? I sense that you're worried,  but are you angry? I would be given that you warned your husband about this now perp.

[Harri]

Hi Wools.  I am concerned and praying for you.   

Keep us posted.