Hello: Can BPD people really have a long term relationship?

[singularity]

Hello everyone.

I'm 43, she's 39.  We met in June 2017 on an online dating site and immediately hit it off.  I was hopelessly attracted to her and kissed her on the first date.  Things were good, and it was the most amazing relationship I had.  We went away for the weekend about 6 weeks into the relationship and had the most wonderful time together.  Sex was amazing, and we communicated well, in short everything I ever wanted.

Right from the beginning she disclosed that she had BPD and told me all about it.  I tried to do some reading up on it, but she said she was not a typical case and that she didn't display the regular symptoms.  She suffered from depression and had numerous suicide attempts and cut herself regularly.  I recall buying a book about it and she got annoyed that I might get a distorted vision of what she was like.

I loved her anyway, scars and all.  She was the most intelligent, open, caring and loving person I have ever met.  She wrote me cards all the time, sent me letters and wrote tokens of love as often as she could.  I always bought her flowers because she said her ex never bought her any.

She has twin boys aged 3 with her ex, and they have a very complicated parenting schedule.  She still made time for us to be together, we bonded so well and things were amazing in every way.

I met her family and they all loved me, I enjoyed spending time with her boys, they are so adorable.

About five months into the relationship, we went to see Cirque de Soleil together.  We took a picture outside together before the show and when I look at it now, we look so happy.

When I visited her the next day, she seemed troubled.  She said that she didn't feel attracted to me, and that she wanted me to stay in her life as a friend.  We talked, and I was surprised about the whole thing.  A few days later I attended her kids birthday party, spoke to her parents and helped as much as I could.  We spoke later and she told me that her mom said that I was a nice boy to be with.  I told her that I couldn't remain friends with her because I would be an unfaithful friend with ulterior motives.

We got back together, and initially took things easy.  Everything seemed to come back and we had a wonderful Christmas with her family.  When I travelled for work in January, she gave me a bag with cards, and reminders to think of her everyday.

Things were great after that... there were a few niggling things here and there, she sometimes would get a little distant, or say that I was too intense or smothering when I saw her.  Said sex brought painful thoughts to her, which I alleviated by allowing her to be in control.  When she called and I was excited to hear her voice, she would ask me to tone down the enthusiasm, and when I visited her, she asked me to let her warm up to my intensity and let her approach me.

In May she called me saying that she wasn't doing well and needed to go to the hospital.  I took her to the hospital and she went to register herself and asked me not to come with her to the counter.  We sat in the waiting room and chatted and made each other laugh.  She asked me to get her a coffee and when I came back they had already called her in.  Asked if I could go be with her and they said I couldn't.  She came out with two nurses and two security guards and they took her in.  I had no idea what happened, until the next day when her mom called to say she was suicidal.

She spent a month in the psych ward and I visited her everyday.  The doctors and nurses said that I was very good for her and she looked forward to seeing me every day.  She painted and did sculpture for me with modelling clay and was always excited to see me.  I even got to sit in with her doctor who said that it was good that I was involved in helping in her recovery.

Beginning of July she invited me for her annual family gathering.  I went there for 3 days, met everyone, and everyone had the nicest things to say to me.

About 10 days ago we took the boys and her friend and her friend's daughter to the miniature train park with her mom and dad.  Went for lunch after, and when I leaving I leaned in for a kiss, she gave me a hug.

When I got home that night we were talking and in the middle of the conversation, she said, "I need to tell you something.  I feel that I don't feel like I have romantic feelings for you anymore.  We could be friends and see if something develops."  I said, I couldn't.  I would not be a genuine friend because I would have ulterior motives.  She then said then we cannot continue.  I was angry and said "Fine, I'll bring everything of yours back to you tomorrow".

When she hung up, I kept blaming myself, thinking that over the past year I have put on some weight, not really dressed well, something like that... maybe she didn't feel like I was attractive enough anymore, too intense, too needy, too smothering.  I was hurt that just as I was trying to eat healthy, and take care of myself she was leaving me.

I packed all her things, and in my anger/distress I packed all of her cards, sculptures, everything she ever gave me and went over to drop it all off.  She asked if I wanted to walk with her to the store.

She said sorry, that it was all about her.  I kept thinking it was me, not being attractive enough, being needy, and said I understand.  She said sorry.  We hugged, and I left.

I called her the next day and asked if we could talk over lunch.  I sat with her and asked her why.  She said, she just didn't feel anything.  She seemed detached, distant.  Showed me a video of her kids at the spray park, and it made me tear up.  I said I miss the boys already.  I cried.  She seemed like she just wanted me out of there.

I sent her a text the next day (it was Amazon Prime day and I knew she was looking for a computer so I sent her a link to a good deal).  She said "thank you".  She texted me saying she had found my drill, and in my attempt at humor I texted back saying "on blueberry hill?".  She didn't reply.

I texted her the next day and she said replied saying that when I returned all her cards and everything else, she thought that I didn't want to be with her.  That we shouldn't text each other and that she needed some space.  Said she was removing herself from my Google Play family account and subscribing by herself.

I spoke to her mom a few days later, and she was apologetic.  Said sorry, and that she thought things were going to work out with us.  I had intended to propose to her in December for her 40th birthday.

Now I read all of these posts and see how my relationship was a classic borderline case.  And now I understand.

I know I like to think that my relationship was special and different from everyone else, but I did genuinely love her, and her family.  While I was looking to find a way to let things cool off and seeing if she will contact me - I now know that it may not happen at all.

I am torn between:
1) Letting her go and getting on with my life.  NOTE:  I DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS.  This is difficult because I really care about her and want to help her.  We always said we were a "team", and handled challenges together.
2) Waiting for her to reach out and having a discussion with her (or if she doesn't reach out, reaching out to her mom) about how our relationship was the classic borderline relationship and asking her if moving from one relationship to another is what she wants for herself and her kids.  To perhaps stop and think about what it is she wants and why she feels that I did not give it to her.  Basically giving her some idea of "this is your life" and asking her if she would be able to find happiness with me.

Sorry for the long winded post... I truly loved her and think that this was the happiest year of my life... and I feel it slipping away.  I have had no closure by having the rug pulled out beneath my feet.  I keep beating myself up thinking that I was hasty and returned all the cards and things and made her feel like I didn't want to be with her anymore.

Can BPD people really have a long term relationship? Should I give her space?  Will my trying to contact her be detrimental?

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[pearlsw]

Hi singularity,



Sorry that you are in so much pain over this relationship!

How long have things been off between you two? What was the last contact you had?

How early into the relationship was she saying she was not attracted to you?

Yes, these relationships can last a long time. Many members have been in relationships as long as 30 years, and any number of years in between. What the relationships are like is the question.

Would you say you have issues with codependency?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[singularity]

Thank you for understanding. 

We met in June last year, and the first time she suggested "friendship" was November.  However we resolved that within a week and were happy until about 10 days ago.

The last contact we had was about a week ago and I have to say that I am reeling from being so in love to being discarded without as much as a second thought.

Her "annoyances" with me or our "differences in intensity" started in March or so this year.

I wish I had taken the opportunity to learn and arm myself with the information on this site before now, but, as I said, she said she was different. 

I don't think I have issues with codependency.  Sure, I did care about her and liked to support her when she needed, but when we were apart, I had my own time to myself and did my own thing.  I didn't NEED to have someone to fix, but as part of being a supportive boyfriend I was there for her when she needed.

I am not sure how many people she has dated before me, she was in treatment for a long time, then married, divorced and an occasional dater.  She works as a social worker helping people with mental issues, so she is familiar with DBT, CBT and the like.  I am just not sure if she has realised that she needs help right now.

There is so much confusion and uncertainty right now.  Does she feel anything for me right now?  Does her mom know about the cycle of a Borderline relationship? 

I loved the person she is.  Unconditionally.  We communicated well, we understood each other, she is smart and intelligent and our conversations were always deep and meaningful.  I am so full of questions at the moment.  What about me disgusts her that she discarded me?  Did she discard me because she was unhappy?

Should I reach out to her and tell her that I understand?  Should I reach out to her mom and talk to her?  I hate the idea of being replaced, even temporarily, and I don't think she has moved on yet.  Not being able to understand her current mindset is painful.

Mentally I've run through a conversation with her where I tell her that I understand why she said it was her, and not me.  To tell her that I care about her and want to work this out as a team, get counselling, therapy and support.  Is that not what she would like?  I want to do it not just because I want to help her, I want to do it because I know she loved me too.

[Toota1234]

Hello Singularity,
I hear you totally. And I can see you are truly in love. And I think it is legitimate that you care for her and to feel pain for what are going through.
I have a very similar situation to yours. Perhaps the only difference is that we had that happening in 4 months only. Then I became a nuisance, and I should not be seen with her. But I still do not want to walk away.

I will be curious to see how things will evolve between you two. I did a lot of readings and from what I understand there is always a big deal of uncertainty, and big part of the relationship is that the NBP would be willing to continue.
I understand it is tough. I doubt myself almost every day. But I recall how smart and intelligent she is and how involuntarily her actions are.

I hope to hear some reliable, scientific advice on here on whether anything you (we) should say and “do and don’t”.
Be strong-
Best,
Toota1234

[SunandMoon]

Hi Singularity

Welcome to BPD Family! I'm sorry for the problems that have brought you here. You sound like a nice guy and obviously love your partner.

As you probably realise, if you've been reading these boards, the situation you find yourself in now is unfortunately common in relationships with people with BPD (pwBPD).

If you haven't already, it would be useful for you to read through some of the excellent articles and lessons on the right of this page to better understand the dynamics of these relationships and  ways to improve them --》

There is no way to know what she really wants - maybe she isn't attracted to you (sorry, I don't mean to cause you more hurt but this can happen in any relationship), maybe she needs space (pwBPD often engage in push/pull behaviour and also need to be given space to process their emotions), maybe she is just dealing with so much internally that she doesn't feel able to maintain a romantic relationship. It's confusing for you - and possibly just as confusing for her.

Although she has twice (according to your post) stated that she wants to be friends, I think it's a positive sign that she wants to keep you in her life, as opposed to just cutting you off and moving onto someone else.

It may be that she is a "quiet borderline" who agonizes internally and she also sounds like she suffers from severe depression (as evidenced by a month in the psych ward). All this, plus 3 year old twins and an ex, is a lot for someone who is emotionally fragile to handle.

Working in mental health, she is also probably aware that being in a romantic relationship triggers the worst emotions for her... .that may be why she wants to cool it off (also why she asks you to tone down your enthusiasm).

Please don't involve her mother. Even as a non, I would find that disrespectful and annoying. Would you consider starting again as her friend and seeing what develops over time?

[singularity]

Thank you for your insight.

I am trying to read through a few articles - I seem to have a lot of time on my hands of late.

I would LOVE to start again as friends and see where it goes, however I think my comments about being unable to be a genuine friend might have burned that bridge.  I don't know how to reach out to her, especially if she has not contacted me and is asking me to leave her alone.  I was thinking of reaching out to ask for help or asking her out to a fundraising event that I had bought tickets for (before our split), but I don't know if that is being pushy again or not.

The only reason I wanted to reach out to her mom is to let her know that I am still here for her.  Anything else I do, in my mind, risks the reset of the no contact period again.

I have one big question though, that I can't seem to find an answer for.  Is she aware of the BPD relationship timeline?  Push/pull?  Devalue/Discard?  What would happen if I discussed it with her and told her that I know, and that I am still here for her?

[SunandMoon]

I think you could probably contact her and say you're missing her and the boys and ask if you could take them all out somewhere fun on the weekend... just as friends.

I suggest you keep it very simple, Singularity. Just that... .no pressure. If she asks why you want to be friends, say that you are her friend and would like to see her. But nothing about your relationship or what has happened in the past. Really show her you intend to start again as a friend.

 I was thinking of reaching out to ask for help or asking her out to a fundraising event that I had bought tickets for (before our split), but I don't know if that is being pushy again or not.

Too much, too soon I think. Really dial back on being pushy or too needy. These are things that you can work on for yourself in the between times.

Think: playing the long game. Being a friend, doing fun things together, not putting pressure on her, not acting like you are in a relationship. Develop trust and be cool 

I have one big question though, that I can't seem to find an answer for.  Is she aware of the BPD relationship timeline?  Push/pull?  Devalue/Discard?  What would happen if I discussed it with her and told her that I know, and that I am still here for her?

We have no way of knowing how self aware she is. These are questions you may get a chance to ask sometime in the future but I think if you do anything like this at the moment it will be putting too much pressure on her and you may lose her for good.

[singularity]

I sent her a very small and simple message:

Hey,
Hope you are doing ok.  It's blazing hot and this whole week we've had no AC in the office.  On the plus side, our HR department is quite nice to us with watermelon, ice cream and freezies all available.
I just wanted to reach out to you to let you know I miss my friend, and I miss the boys.  I was wondering if we could take them to the aquarium or to the spray park, if you are downtown.  Or perhaps if you are at home, we could go to the *local* Spray Park or the Discovery Center.
I'm free both days, other than *my daughter's* karate on Saturday, but the afternoon/evening is free.  If no other time works, I can always ask her mom to take her.
Also, I hope you received your laptop.  Do you like it?
Let me know?
S

When it happened, it completely caught me off guard and I thought she was dumping me because of someone else - you know, the classic "lets be friends" bit - and I told her I couldn't be her friend.  And returning all of her things may have shown her that I wanted out - I didn't mean it that way.  I was hurt and lashing out.

I hope she still values me, even as a friend.

[livednlearned]

Hi singularity,

I'm so sorry you're experiencing grief about losing her. It is hard to have a relationship come to a screeching halt

I am just not sure if she has realised that she needs help right now.

Or maybe the opposite is true? Based on the strength and bravery she showed by checking herself in during suicidal ideation. She may have a different benchmark for distress than what you or I have. This isn't to say she didn't love you, or that she won't ever love you again. Only that right now, in this moment, she doesn't have the feelings she once had, and she seems to be making logical choices based on how she feels.

Does her mom know about the cycle of a Borderline relationship? 

I'm not sure I follow how her mom's knowledge is related here?

Did she discard me because she was unhappy?

She seemed to be expressing her feelings very clearly, especially compared to what can often happen when feelings in relationships wane. For example, ghosting, cheating, picking fights. Instead, she is gently telling you that her feelings have changed.

Should I reach out to her and tell her that I understand?  Should I reach out to her mom and talk to her?  I hate the idea of being replaced, even temporarily, and I don't think she has moved on yet.  Not being able to understand her current mindset is painful.

Maybe I missed something... .what role does her mom play in all this?

Do you think talking to her mom is how you are coping with the pain you're experiencing? It's ok if it is. It's probably a good idea to know why her mom is important to you, like whether you hope she will persuade on your behalf (which might backfire).

Mentally I've run through a conversation with her where I tell her that I understand why she said it was her, and not me.  To tell her that I care about her and want to work this out as a team, get counselling, therapy and support.  Is that not what she would like?  I want to do it not just because I want to help her, I want to do it because I know she loved me too.

She sounds very astute about her own mental health needs, and as a social worker, like you say, she is familiar with CBT, DBT, and her own diagnosis. It sounds, too, like she has a supportive family and is able to express what she feels and translate that into what she wants. Right now, she wants space, from what you have shared here.

I would imagine, based on what she has said, that she is struggling to feel for you (and maybe feel anything in general), and for that reason can't see a point to staying together. Or, she is feeling unworthy and it's too invalidating to have someone express different feelings than how she feels inside.

You could argue that she will pass through these feelings, and will come around and change her mind. We often talk here about radical acceptance, which means knowing with eyes wide open that she will cycle through moods that cannot be "fixed" by you, only acknowledged. If those feelings include detaching from you, then the best-case scenario is to be gentle with her, let her know you will be here for her if and when she changes her mind.

It's tough

These are not easy relationships. Mood states fluctuate a lot, and actions follow. It takes a lot of strength to not be emotionally injured in a BPD relationship.

Are you managing to take care of yourself during all this? Eating well, sleeping well, or whatever heals you?

[singularity]

Thank you for your support livednlearned

I think I want to reach out to her mom because when we were in the relationship, her mom gave me a little bit of reassurance when I couldn't understand what was going on.   It also seems to be a way for me to reach out to her, to let her know that in spite of saying I couldn't be her friend that I was here.

I don't want her mom to intercede on my behalf... I know that would completely drive her away.

What seems to distress me more is that she was clear in her needs and she communicated it well, it was me, with my lack of knowledge who lashed out and hurt her more.  I desperately want to undo that, talk to her, explain myself, but I feel that if I do, she will completely disappear forever.

In the mean time, I am taking care of myself.  Eating healthy, exercising every day (lost about 10lb over the past month already), planning hikes, walking dogs.  I just worry about her, and miss her.  We communicated so well she became my best friend, the one confidante I could talk to about anything without judgment - and I feel like I'm missing a piece of my life.

Meanwhile, I sent her that email.  She hasn't responded, and if she doesn't I will just let it be.  She may be mulling it over in her mind about what to do.  It's hard not to glance over and over at my phone.  Maybe I should go and lock it in my car or something.

[livednlearned]

I know you know this  

There is no silver bullet to put a relationship back together.

However, there are some things to think about when it comes to BPD relationships.

With BPD, boundaries are a struggle. That amazing merged/fused feeling with someone who understands you -- that wonderful feeling can often be a sign that boundaries are mushy or nonexistent in the relationship. You may love that feeling. She may love it temporarily, and then it becomes alarming because she has taken on characteristics of someone else who can leave, which feeds fear of abandonment. Staying with her, reassuring her, pleading with her -- these don't work because the core wound is a lack of self, which you cannot give her. Some describe BPD not as a fear of abandonment, but as an abandonment of self.

Sometimes, a person suffering from BPD will recoil when the fusion feels too overwhelming because *self* will not have the same kind of definition as yours. Love is also tricky because she may not be certain who you are loving if she was mirroring you back to yourself.

There is also a possibility that she lost affect, and feels nothing but emptiness, and that it will pass.

It's hard to know, but all of these things are possible with a BPD loved one.

You are also reeling in your own pain right now. She will be hypersensitive to your neediness and may be repelled if your overtures seem more about your needs than hers.

SunandMoon and others are encouraging you to have a light step right now and give her space. Can you see why that is preferable with her, given that she has BPD?

It sounds like for you, the key is to decide whether it's possible to have a friendship with her. If not, then the ball is in her court and it's time to build strength and take care of yourself, and learn some of the communication and relationship skills that increase chances the next cycle will last a bit longer, if she chooses to reach out again.

[singularity]

Oh man.

Why is it like I keep making the mistakes?  I understand now what she might be going through, but my email to her was about ME missing my friend, and ME missing the kids.  Urgh...

I will just back off and see if she contacts me, she hasn't so far, and I will leave it at that.

Till then I will just try to learn and take it a day at a time.

I can understand why you are telling me to give her space.  I will. 

[singularity]

I should note that only part of my pain comes from missing her and the good times.  I am a realistic person, so I know things were good between us - but all good things will cool down eventually.

The bigger part that causes me hurt comes from the fact that I hurt her.  She communicated, and in my ignorance I lashed out.  She said she cried, and now has disconnected.  I can't explain myself or apologise.  I can't do anything to fix it.  I feel like I hurt her and am not being given a chance to help or reconcile.  How does one maintain NC when all I ever want to do is explain and say I am sorry... .?

[livednlearned]

How does one maintain NC when all I ever want to do is explain and say I am sorry... .?

Wanting to explain and say you're sorry is ok! It's natural to want to reconcile and put things right.

It's also ok to feel angry and not be your best during crunch time. It was a break up with someone you loved and people struggle in those moments all the time.

Be kind to yourself 

Maybe now is the time to sit with your feelings and work through them -- singularity experiencing pain, leaning into it, learning from it -- and give her space.

And if you feel the need to reach out and apologize, you could do a series of drafts until it says what you want to say. Focus on her if you feel that's what the note needs to do.

Another thought is to drop in with a light touch, if it makes sense given how things ended. Be the guy you were when you two met. "Was at the farmer's market today and saw that same guy juggling tomatoes and it made me think of you. Laughing together that day was so fun   Sending positive thoughts and wishing you well."

Something like that signals that you are through the anger and back to being who you are, sharing a positive memory without trying to get anything from her.

[singularity]

Wow livednlearned

Thank you for that.

So last night she texted me.  "Let's just chat on the phone about it... about your suggestion".  A little cold, but understandable that she is unsure about what my feelings are.

When we talked, she was a bit hesitant at first, said I might not be ready yet to see the kids.  I said "you know me, a bit turbulent, so it takes me a little time to calm down, but I'm calm".  So we made plans to meet and take the kids to the spray park on Sunday.

I joked about a few things, she told me about her new computer, and that she upgraded her phone.  I told her a funny story about my upcoming trip with my daughter next month.  Kept it light.  She asked how I was, I told her I had been exercising, that my nutritionist was happy with my progress and that I had lost some weight. 

We ended on a good note.  I won't reach out to her till Sunday, give her some space, if she calls me, then that will be a good sign.

I'm in a good place.  She is really an exceptional person, she understands her situation and I think her main fear is that if I find out too much I will love her less, but I've always joked that I'm like a disease.  Very hard to get over.  She calls me her "jock itch".  I am going to take things very slow.  Be her friend and let her call the shots.  I do have some boundaries though, but that is for another time.

I'll keep you updated.  Thank you.  If you have any ideas, thoughts or things to watch out for, do let me know.  I am a bit hesitant to reveal to her that I was here and that I reached out for help.  But again, that is for another time.

  to you all.

[Sadrose]

Livednlearned, I really like your advice, it's interesting what you wrote about boundaries and alternating feelings of merging, emptiness and engulfment in BPD.
I can totally relate to it in my experience with my lover.
And I'd love to know your insight on my own thread.

Singularity, I am glad she reached out back and you will get to meet up soon. Take things slow.
You don't have to mention you've been looking for help here, I wouldn't.
This would just add more emotional pressure on her.
Keep us posted on how it goes.

Best of luck.