Exhausted- If it weren't for my 3 year old, I would divorce my BPDw in a second

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Every day I try to tolerate my BPDw, I read the books, try SET, and this and that. But, EVERYONE I know with a BPDx is simply a punching bag for these people. The only reason I stay here is to give my 3 year old little girl a "family", but my BPDw is just hellbent on destroying everything in her path. The mood swings, the rages, the constant anger, threats. I am so tired of it. 3 therapists and all they did was make her more angry and waste $1000's of my money.

I try EVERYTHING to make this house a little more peaceful. But, after all this time, I am really coming to the conclusion that BPDs do NOT get better UNLESS they WANT to. And 99.99999% of them do NOT think THEY have a problem, they have no motivation to change. One thing that the therapist told me was BPD or not, people NEED a reason to change, something to motivate them -- she works with teens as well, if they don't get better, they fail school, that's a motivator. If you're an alcoholic, you loose your job, or go to jail, etc.

But, with BPDs, what is there on earth to motivate them? My wife has an enabling mother that constantly gives her money. My BPDw is addicted to social media, this is 99% of our arguments since she refuses to work, and refuses to do chores at home as a SAHM. I am a SAHD, but work all day providing.

2 years ago, my wife got into INSTAGRAM, and she hasn't put it down -- she buys clothes, takes pics and gets likes. She has spent now $40K on credit cards -- HER CREDIT cards, I cut her off years ago. But, she keeps using one card to pay the other, and finally I thought my BPDw was finally DONE -- $40K on credit cards, no income, she would realize this is insane what she does on instagram then her mom just gave a 36 year old woman $15,000! I couldn't believe it. So, not only did her mom enable her, she re-affirmed THIS IS A GREAT IDEA. When it is not.

That said, every day, depending on how INSTAGRAM goes my BPDw is either MAD or maybe neutral, NEVER happy. She fakes it with her mom, since she wants to paint a picture to her, to keep getting money.

But, all that is here nor there -- I am just tired of trying to FIX, HELP, this woman -- I don't want to divorce her, it would be a disaster, she would ruin my daughters life for the next 2-3 years, and bankrupt me in the process.

I am just so frustrated, we have everything, nice house, good food, she stays at home, no stress, daughter is so sweet, but my BPDw is never happy. NEVER. She split me black when the baby was born, 6 months after roughly, like a switch. Before then, I did NOT know she was BPD, she was always depressed, pouty, etc. but, NEVER took it out on me, and if she did, she apologized -- but after the baby, it's like she KNOWS she has me, she know I ADORE our daughter and I want her to have parents and a good life, and she leverages this to hurt me each day.

I know the whole deal with BPDs, I know the things they say, they are saying about themselves, but it still hurts and after a while I get sick of being the sane one, always trying to keep things together, and each day for now reason my BPDw is just vile, "I hate you", "I want a divorce", "I will never do anything nice for you"... Who says that? "I will never do anything nice for you".

I guess, what I am trying to find out is has ANYONE seen their BPDs get better? Anyone? Ever? I can't afford more therapists. My wife is in 100% denial. I don't see her mom cutting her off for another 1-2 years, until my wife runs up $50-60K. And all the while this F'ing social media is making my wife MORE nuts, hour to hour, she doesn't get a LIKE, she is PISSED and takes it out on me.

I have tried talking to her 1000 times, telling her how I feel, trying to get along, tried to get her to read papers, watch videos, TRY things, but she just refuses. There is nothing I can get my BPDw to do --

Only I can do things -- But, WHAT? I live my life alone here basically which sucks, but we have a daughter and I try to keep the family running, but I need my BPDw to be involved somewhat, but EVERYTHING is a war, any question, any request, anything --

I need to do something drastic -- I am out of ideas -- Has anyone seen their BPDs ever just spontaneously get better, or try, or change, or grow out of it? One thing is for certain "helping" them is futile.

I need to figure out a way to live my life each day, but I am TIRED of the abuse -- sick of it.

[LivingWBPDWife]

Every day I try to tolerate my BPDw, I read the books, try SET, and this and that. But, EVERYONE I know with a BPDx is simply a punching bag for these people. The only reason I stay here is to give my 3 year old little girl a "family", but my BPDw is just hellbent on destroying everything in her path. The mood swings, the rages, the constant anger, threats. I am so tired of it. 3 therapists and all they did was make her more angry and waste $1000's of my money.

I try EVERYTHING to make this house a little more peaceful. But, after all this time, I am really coming to the conclusion that BPDs do NOT get better UNLESS they WANT to. And 99.99999% of them do NOT think THEY have a problem, they have no motivation to change. One thing that the therapist told me was BPD or not, people NEED a reason to change, something to motivate them -- she works with teens as well, if they don't get better, they fail school, that's a motivator. If you're an alcoholic, you loose your job, or go to jail, etc.

But, with BPDs, what is there on earth to motivate them? My wife has an enabling mother that constantly gives her money. My BPDw is addicted to social media, this is 99% of our arguments since she refuses to work, and refuses to do chores at home as a SAHM. I am a SAHD, but work all day providing.

2 years ago, my wife got into INSTAGRAM, and she hasn't put it down -- she buys clothes, takes pics and gets likes. She has spent now $40K on credit cards -- HER CREDIT cards, I cut her off years ago. But, she keeps using one card to pay the other, and finally I thought my BPDw was finally DONE -- $40K on credit cards, no income, she would realize this is insane what she does on instagram then her mom just gave a 36 year old woman $15,000! I couldn't believe it. So, not only did her mom enable her, she re-affirmed THIS IS A GREAT IDEA. When it is not.

That said, every day, depending on how INSTAGRAM goes my BPDw is either MAD or maybe neutral, NEVER happy. She fakes it with her mom, since she wants to paint a picture to her, to keep getting money.

But, all that is here nor there -- I am just tired of trying to FIX, HELP, this woman -- I don't want to divorce her, it would be a disaster, she would ruin my daughters life for the next 2-3 years, and bankrupt me in the process.

I am just so frustrated, we have everything, nice house, good food, she stays at home, no stress, daughter is so sweet, but my BPDw is never happy. NEVER. She split me black when the baby was born, 6 months after roughly, like a switch. Before then, I did NOT know she was BPD, she was always depressed, pouty, etc. but, NEVER took it out on me, and if she did, she apologized -- but after the baby, it's like she KNOWS she has me, she know I ADORE our daughter and I want her to have parents and a good life, and she leverages this to hurt me each day.

I know the whole deal with BPDs, I know the things they say, they are saying about themselves, but it still hurts and after a while I get sick of being the sane one, always trying to keep things together, and each day for now reason my BPDw is just vile, "I hate you", "I want a divorce", "I will never do anything nice for you"... Who says that? "I will never do anything nice for you".

I guess, what I am trying to find out is has ANYONE seen their BPDs get better? Anyone? Ever? I can't afford more therapists. My wife is in 100% denial. I don't see her mom cutting her off for another 1-2 years, until my wife runs up $50-60K. And all the while this F'ing social media is making my wife MORE nuts, hour to hour, she doesn't get a LIKE, she is PISSED and takes it out on me.

I have tried talking to her 1000 times, telling her how I feel, trying to get along, tried to get her to read papers, watch videos, TRY things, but she just refuses. There is nothing I can get my BPDw to do --

Only I can do things -- But, WHAT? I live my life alone here basically which sucks, but we have a daughter and I try to keep the family running, but I need my BPDw to be involved somewhat, but EVERYTHING is a war, any question, any request, anything --

I need to do something drastic -- I am out of ideas -- Has anyone seen their BPDs ever just spontaneously get better, or try, or change, or grow out of it? One thing is for certain "helping" them is futile.

I need to figure out a way to live my life each day, but I am TIRED of the abuse -- sick of it.

[Ltahoe]

I can’t answer your question but it sucks. I feel like each thing I did that locked myself in turned up the BPD a notch, marriage, kid, buying a house. I’d say after we were married and she was pregnant at the time stuff really went south fast. For me lately it seems each time the dysregulations are getting worse and worse, like they’re cumulative in nature.

[LivingWBPDWife]

Yes, as time goes on -- BPDs seem to have less and less of a fuse. The primary person they attack becomes easier to attack. They know there is no downside, no consequences. So, they just get worst. I need consequences. I need FORCE. Force is really the ultimate leverage. But, what force? There's nothing I can say or do. If I was a cop and someone does something wrong I give them a ticket, arrest them, jail them. But, with BPDs there are very few tools on the table. They are like 15 year olds constantly throwing tantrums, with a real 15 year old, I would take their phone, ground them, etc.

But, with a 36 year old, there is no way to apply any kind of pain or make her uncomfortable with all the hate and anger she spews. Words don't work, kindness doesn't work. I have tried so many tactics.

I am just frustrated and tired. I challenge anyone to say their BPD has gotten better, really better. And if so, what, how? What was the trigger? Was it time, age? $50K of therapy? Meds? A death in the family? Loosing a job? Divorce? Getting outed in public?

What's it going to take for me to get a little peace of mind -- I just want one day where this woman doesn't throw a tantrum or say something hateful for no reason.

At wits end.

[Ltahoe]

Ya I hear you I’m stuck in the same boat, not exactly but close. To top it off BPDs seem to be very stubborn so I feel any lesson or potential change mechanism besides destroying yourself wouldn’t get the message across. I’ve been so close to quitting my job, quit paying bills, this and that just to have a blatant enough scenario to wake my wife up. But in the end I’d have to self destruct myself in the process of teaching that lesson. Then of course you might just seem like the crazy one, and there’s no Gaurantee to have an effect. I’ve thought about leaving for a week and not saying nothing just leaving then there’s the kid moral dilemma you’d be ditching them too, but I also see so many backfires on that one. I’m just too sane or at this point should say more sane than my BPDw to play the stubborn game with her.

I’m sure there’s some success stories. Maybe you’re right though from a statistical or realistic point of view the odds of a pwBPD recovering is like lottery odds.

[LivingWBPDWife]

Sigh -- yes, BPDs rely on the fact that we ARE sane, responsible, adult, rational, etc. I have been reading this forum for YEARS, and honestly, I see a lot of enabling, I feel like too many NONs put up with too much, make it their life's work to "fix" and help their BPDs and for what? Years of pain? Loss? Bills? It's like putting your life on hold. But, I was tricked into having children -- I would have NEVER given this woman a 2nd date if I knew she was BPD... .

Anyway, a big part of BPD personality is OCD, so they can get in a pattern for years. And if that pattern is GOOD, that's great, but shopping 24/7 with a new born, now a toddler, has created so much grief for me. And I don't see this stopping until her MOM finally cuts her off --

So, getting thru the days is one argument after another -- feed the baby, take her to bed, clean her, etc. and I do 90% of it, but I can't do 100% and pay the bills, so I need SOME help -- but, even that 10% time my BPD helps, she goes bat___ crazy and rages since it takes social media time from her -- 10-12 hours a day is NOT enough? Crazy... .just nuts.

[Ltahoe]

Ya I realize a lot of nons here take too much, me included it’s no rip on the nons though. I just don’t understand why we do and everyone to different levels. I think we all wish we knew in the beginning, and could go back to the 2nd date or not is more like it. It does seem really unfair that the BPD was lurking underneath, and the person you fell for isn't the real them. I had everything I wanted mirrored to me, you probably did too. After I saw the real her I kinda hit a stage where I’m resentful basically felt like I fell In love with someone fake so to say. Idk man I’m stuck too. Part of me finds it ridiculous that the healthier partner needs to change, I already feel delusional enough from dealing with this stuff. I know I suffer anxiety and daily migraines from my relationship. I’ve lost my self, I almost have no say in anything yet I’m the controlling one when I won’t budge on certain things. The part of me that’s the husband wants to quit but the father part of me sees my kids and refuses too. I’m in an internal battle with myself stressed to the max because of it and add to the mix 50-60hr work weeks. I know the feeling of lost hope, it’s like I’m waiting for the next blow up to be bigger, waiting to be  surprised by a new level of behavior etc. It’s no way to have a relationship.

 I guess I’m here to relate to people and learn and ya seeing the reality of it for so many people can be maddening. I suppose that’s where you have to decide is your kid worth it, or do you move on.  Obviously being married there’s finances and other things at stake. I hate to admit it but along with the kids that’s part of my dilemma. The horror of working so long and having support set on 60ish hours a week plus lost time with kids is also a stressing thought for me. I’m totally check mated by my wife. My spouse works but sleeps dang near 10 hrs a day and is obsessed with social media too. I’m defintely second to her phone, probably not even second somewhere at the bottom of the list. For me my wife does more chores it took some work and a lot of arguing in the beginning but I refuse to work 10hr days, pick up kids from day care, cook, do dishes etc. I feel for you there, idk is there a way just not to do them? My wife too likes money but I’ve made it very apparent to her if she can’t pitch in here at home and I have to pick up slack my OT goes bye bye. Basically her lifestyle is over if I give up OT mine is over if we divorce. It’s messed up and It sounds shady but I found a source of leverage on her and use it. I know she does know every weak spot or mine too and goes after it, overall I feel the need either of us to do this BS. It’s not a real relationship if you ask me.

I also do feel lucky in a sense as my wife’s BPD seems more mild than a lot of other cases here. Even my situation is taxing full of stress and emotional swings. For example it was divorce threats earlier, to her raging. blaming me, and calling me a dumbass for thinking she would possiblyleave. Like What the heck?  But I can’t even imagine the worse cases.

I do hope there’s success stories or perhaps we're all hoping for nothing. If nothing changes I’ll have to rethink my marriage once my kids are a little older and more independent.

[LivingWBPDWife]

Wow -- you literally sound exactly like me. I could have wrote what you just wrote. This is why this is so maddening, everyone I know with a BPDx has the EXACT same story -- things like "I had everything I wanted mirrored to me, you probably did too." -- YES - she ADORED me. Then like a switch after the baby she HATES me more than anything. Then I saw all the BPD traits, I started reading books on OCD, BPD, SAD, NPD, etc. and she was a text book case of the DSM IV and now V BPD -- EXTREME case. She has all 9 out of 9 of the traits. And I think 4 or 5 is all that is required to be labeled BPD.

Anyway, there are so many people in the same boat, I am sick of being stuck, I am the ceo of a small tech company, put myself thru college and grad school, worked my ass off to buy a house, etc. and all that work to end up trapped with this woman that has weaponized my 3 year old. What the heck?

I have NEVER been faced with a business or legal problem I couldn't fix or fight, but I feel helpless in this situation. After she had a rage and tantrum I left the house, took a drive, went and played some 80's retro games at an arcade (I am 45, so I like the older games . I come home, I am eating something, trying to, I just feel sick all the time -- then I notice her wedding right and engagement ring on a piece of tuperware -- She didn't pay for them, so why care? Its just the CHILDLIKE behavior mostly that I just can't stand anymore ... .Things like that.

I don't know -- I am looking for solutions, anything, anyone that has any ray of hope -- something like "this happened" THEN they seemed to get better. Pipe dream. So, it becomes how many days, years, can you tolerate it all? Each day dealing with the CRAZY hateful behavior, the mood swings, and QUESTION illicits anger -- BPDs are VERY hard to talk to, you can't ask a question, make a statement, they find a way to feel invalidated --

I feel like the only chance in hell is if her parents were out of the picture, her mom especially would just cut her off, and force my BPD to grow up, and deal with problems. Right now -- I see once in a while a glimmer of reason in my wife's eyes, I think I make progress, but then she calls her mom (they talk 20-30 times a day, ridiculous) and then my wife is emboldened again to disrespect me --

p.s. LEVERAGE is VERY important -- BPD lovers will disagree, but without LEVERAGE of some kind you can't get ANYONE to comply. If there was no reason not to pay taxes no one would! If I could drive 100 mph, I would! If I could do what I wanted, I would! But, there are laws and consequences. BPDs set up a situation with someone VERY carefully, they wait, plot and plan, and when they have someone they know that CARES about things, especially children -- then you are F'ed. I am trying to figure out some leverage, but other than money, there's no much I can do. I cut her off, she went to her mom. I pay for the house, cars, insurance, food, medical, anything my wife needs, but I won't buy her any more "toys", that ship has sailed. So, she went to her mom, and now treats her mom like GOD --

[Cat Familiar]

Living,
You are battle weary and well informed about the situation you face with your BPD wife.  

You've read, tried strategies, paid for therapy, yet your wife continues with raging and mood swings. At this point, you have little hope for her to change. Like so many here, your initial relationship was wonderful and quite different from what you currently experience on a daily basis. Were it not for your lovely little daughter, you'd probably have been out the door long ago.

You cannot see any way to motivate your wife and your mother-in-law undermines you by subsidizing your wife's addiction to shopping and Instagram. It sounds like your wife's only motivation in life is to get validation on social media.

Your wife is not open to hearing how you feel, trying anything new, helping with your daughter's care. At this point, you are totally exhausted and hopeless about dealing with her angry outbursts and wonder how long you can tolerate being stuck in this cycle of abuse.

Like you, I was extremely angry when I discovered that my husband has BPD. Our courtship and the first few years of our marriage were some of the best times ever in my life. I felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me and I was duped into falling in love with a fantasy. What made this even worse was the fact that I had been married previously to a man with BPD who was far worse on the scale of bad behavior. And my mother also was another person with BPD. Though my current husband wasn't as bad as either my mother or previous husband, I was furious that I had to confront this horrible disorder once again. And like you, it didn't appear full-blown until I was trapped financially.

As you've done, I too did a lot of reading and trying out various strategies, but I was still angry. Why did I have to change when he is the one with the problem. I was stuck feeling like that for a couple of years until I realized that all my efforts at trying to make him change were fruitless and just made me angrier when things stayed the same.

I started thinking strategically, like how can I make the best of the situation I find myself in, even if he stays the same. So I began validating more and stopped JADEing (justifying, arguing, defending, explaining). I had tried to use SET, but he's a lawyer and very attuned to language and he'd just mock my words. The hardest thing for me was to stop explaining--that's such a part of who I am--I want to explain everything.

Just validating a bit more and trying not to JADE gave me a bit of breathing room from his anger. I realized that I had to let him be exactly how he wanted to be--drinking too much, spending recklessly on expensive watches and camera gear (that he never really uses). He can afford the spending; not sure that his body can tolerate the alcohol abuse.

So, with time, things started getting more peaceful and I got reinforced for doing (validation) and not doing (JADE), so it became more of a habit and less of something I had to think about.

And when things became more easy between us, he started drinking less and not having wild spending sprees. It took time. Now we have a lot more fun together and almost never have cross words between us. That said, he still has BPD and I'm finely tuned to when he starts going off the rails. When that happens, I'm supportive but I also take my alone time to do things that I enjoy.

That's so important for nons. It's far too easy for us to get immersed in their world and neglect our own interests, friends, activities.

As you know, none of this is easy, but it is possible to turn around really difficult relationships to where they can be fun and fulfilling. However the BPD will still be there.  

Some relationships are much more difficult to mend and some can be managed very happily and successfully. Think about where you want to be in the next 5 years, the next 15 years. That will tell you what you need to do.

Cat

[Wrongturn1]

@Living:  You asked if anyone has seen a BPD get better, so I wanted to respond.  My uBPDw of 21 years has made significant improvements over the past couple of years.  Her major BPD episodes are much less frequent these days, and life is much easier for the kids and me. 

I think the main differences were that I started implementing boundaries around her abusive behavior; I started letting her take responsibility for her own feelings; and she started noticing what a terrible example her behaviors were to our daughter.  Also, she got a part-time job, and having to hold it together in the real world for several hours per day might have helped her practice some emotional regulation.  Also, lately she has started to follow a ketogenic eating plan, and that seems to have helped to even out her moods.

She is certainly not cured - she still struggles with negativity, impulsive spending, controlling her alcohol intake, and dealing positively with our kids; however, she is on a positive trajectory now.  Things are much better than they were, and she continues to make improvements.

Hope this serves as an encouragement!

[formflier]

I try EVERYTHING to make this house a little more peaceful.

 

and refuses to do chores at home as a SAHM. I am a SAHD, but work all day providing.

 
That said, every day, depending on how INSTAGRAM goes my BPDw is either MAD or maybe neutral, NEVER happy. She fakes it with her mom, since she wants to paint a picture to her, to keep getting money.


 
I don't want to divorce her, it would be a disaster, she would ruin my daughters life for the next 2-3 years, and bankrupt me in the process.

I am just so frustrated, we have everything, nice house, good food, she stays at home, no stress, daughter is so sweet, but my BPDw is never happy. NEVER.
 
 she know I ADORE our daughter and I want her to have parents and a good life, and she leverages this to hurt me each day.


I know the whole deal with BPDs,

 

I guess, what I am trying to find out is has ANYONE seen their BPDs get better?


I have tried talking to her 1000 times

Only I can do things -- But, WHAT? 

 

I need to figure out a way to live my life each day,

So... .living.  Instead of answering your questions, I tried to distill your post down. 

Read this as if it was coming from someone you cared about.  What plan would you advise.  Broad brushes at this point... don't worry about details.

Ok... I'll answer 1 question.  My wife is much better... .yet life is still "interesting" from time to time.

FF

[defogging]

I don't have the answers for you, but I'm in the same boat.  Three little kids I adore, and I only stay to provide some normalcy for them.  The problem is uBPDw is SO good at knocking me off balance mentally.  Very frustrating, because I'm not the dad I want to be and I really struggle with whether it's better to leave and try to provide one normal house for them or stay.  The biggest problem I see with leaving is I know there will be a replacement for me very quickly, I don't want someone else raising my kids.  I would also be demonized to the point that my kids could be turned against me.  For me, I think I need to stay long enough so the kids can think for themselves.  Every night I tell myself "I am now one day closer to being free of this".  Sad, but true.

I've had success in setting boundaries, to a point.  Being able to say no to certain things helps my sanity schedule-wise (there's always an emergency I need to tend to apparently), but this has brought on more distortion campaigns with me being labeled lazy, bad husband, doesn't do anything (I DO A LOT!), etc.  She tries to turn our families and children against me to get everything her way.  Thankfully, my family is having none of it and doesn't talk to her much now.  Her parents are classic "rescuers" and pop in and out of our lives to help her, then retreat to their house an hour away for some peace.  It's a classic drama triangle and I'm the villain.  Her parents' behavior is very frustrating for me, they are afraid of her and trying to help but it really damages our marriage.  The kids are pretty good about it.  I get questioned sometimes about why I don't do xyz for mom, but it's just uBPDw planting ideas in their heads.  It does infuriate me that she brings young kids into it though.

Leverage - One big frustration for me is her financial control.  Everything must be blessed by her, and guess what that means?  I can't do anything!  I manage the finances, but it is more like I got set up to be the villain.  I manage the money, can never buy anything I want, she spends freely and then gets mad at me when we don't have money left over for something else she wants.  It's ridiculous.  One thing I've done is create a side business a few months ago with my money only.  (We both work and are comfortable, so I'm thankful for that)  She has nothing to do with the company and can't touch anything.  It's starting to make some money and has the potential to bring in about 50% of my initial salary on the side.  It's one way I've thought of to regain control.  If I'm successful it will surely trigger more fights and more being labeled as a "bad guy" because I don't give any to her, but I don't care.  Hopefully it brings me more autonomy and freedom to make life feel a little easier.

I think what is effecting me the most now is the loneliness you touched on.  For the first few years of our marriage she was great, I felt I had a partner that was my champion and best friend.  I told her everything and was supported.  (classic mirroring like you mentioned)  Now, it's a complete 180.  Everything I do is evil and uncaring.  Anything I want is bad, and if I plan something for myself she will try to sabotage it.  So nowadays I share very little with her, so she won't know what matters to me and what doesn't.  It's a miserable way to live though.  Every conversation with my spouse has to be kept on the surface, I can't get excited about something or be unhappy about anything.  I feel very alone going through this, because no one outside our house understands what I'm dealing with.  It is very helpful to read these threads every so often, to know I'm far from the only one dealing with it.

[LivingWBPDWife]

@Cat -- that's an interesting story. Sound like you know exactly where I am coming from. I have tried the SET thing many times and like your husband my wife can tell when I am being "nice", she hates it, it's as if she needs to be punished, blamed, be the bad guy, which of course is part of BPD -- But, it's as if WORDS make her angry. The only time she talks to me is when she wants something (money, help, whatever), then she is nice for 2-5 mins, I either say yes or no, I explain why if I say no, or I don't, doesn't matter, yes, no, in 10 mins she is back in BPD mode ready to rage.

99% of our conflict comes from our daughter -- my BPDw refuses to feed her, take her to bed on time, play with her, etc. I can't afford a nanny, babysitter, etc. its ME -- If I don't act as father AND mother, my daughter will be by herself. And my wife refuses to go to work, and plays with social media 24/7. And the ADDICTION to it is what causes the conflict -- if I didn't have to EVERY single F'ing day tell my wife to feed our daughter, bathe her, take her to bed, etc. there wouldn't be anything to argue about -- But, I have tried doing all these things, and I just can't juggle our mortgage, 80-100 hour work weeks AND taking care of our 3 year old 24/7.

Sigh... .your story is encouraging though -- I guess, what bothers me is how fast BPDs rage and dysregulate. With SET for weeks and months at a time, many times, I thought we were starting to get along, then ONE thing sets her off. Today, she had a temper tantrum at the store, here was the dialog:

Her: I want this chocolate milk.
Me: Honey, I just bought a gallon last night.
Her: FINE! I will just bring my own CREDIT CARD NEXT TIME AND GET IT MYSELF.

I can't talk to her, reason with her, nothing, she explodes when she hears no. And if you look at my language, I have learned NOT to invalidate her -- I didn't say "NO", I didn't say a word about HER. I made a factual statement, "I just bought a gallon last night" --

I feel like she is a petulant little girl, breaking chinaware in my life, anything she interprets, thinks, even remotely is not what she wants she explodes.

Now, could the world's best BPD saavy expert have said something different that didn't set her off? Sure, maybe just say nothing, or buy the extra gallon of milk, but she makes 100 requests a day for things I can't afford in time or money, she is relentless, "I want this" -- is her favorite sentence.

And it's hard to think on the fly, Wow, I am about to upset her? I can't tell when or what, it seems to be everything -- So, back to SET -- it seems it doesn't work -- There is no SET with "Honey, I just bought a gallon last night" --

If I said something like:

"Honey, you may not have realized, but I bought a gallon last night, so we don't need any" --

Then she would feel like I am calling her stupid.

So, I have learned usually the less worst evil is to be factual.

Now, if we were home, and ran out of chocolote milk, I know she would immediately look to pick a fight:

Her: There's no chocolate milk, I really wanted some to take my vitamins.
Me: I am sorry, I know you like it, since it helps you swallow them.
Her: Yes.
Me: I like to use chocolate milk too, would you like me to drive and get some?
Her: No, it's fine.

Then if I go, she thinks she owes me, if I don't go, she pouts, dysregulates, and then picks another fight -

I don't know, I am 45, I put myself thru college, grad school, bought a house, run a tech business, and I spent my life, playing games like this and thinking literally about how not to make my 15 year old (mentally) wife not spin out of control -- Just makes me sick.

But ... .If you had success, then it means it can be done, I guess, I will give it another try --

However, how do you not sound like an idiot doing SET, or sound overt? It always sounds fake to me, and HER, and she picks it up -

I just need a week without her having a tantrum, I feel like she is so dysregulated all the time, its her "safe" place, and when she starts to feel happy, or calm, she rushes to have conflict, since that is what she knows.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Living,

I've only known BPD was a thing and been on this forum for a couple of months. Before that for many years I thought I just ought to keep trying harder and in different ways (using normal-person tactics), and then I just spent a while hoping I'd die soon.

My question about a pwBPD partner getting "better", from what I've read here (especially on this board) and in books, is what does "better" really mean? Does it just mean you use the tools and/or therapy and/or boundary setting to get the relationship to the state where the BPD partner is mostly no longer actively disabling you from meeting your own needs, and you can carve out some space for yourself and other people (not the partner) to meet those needs instead? Is that as good as it gets?

I know reading this board where people come to vent about the problems in their relationships gives an imbalanced view, and we don't often post about any good times. CatFamiliar mentions above that she has some "fun and fulfilling" times with her milder-BPD SO now. But it seems to me many people here are in that position I described above. How is that a good result, if you are now in a relationship with someone who you don't have to cater to so much and doesn't make you feel rubbish so often, but is still focused on their own needs as their utter priority - or at times when they seem to be focusing on yours, you suspect they have some motive to get something out of you and it won't last, it's not the truth of them. In what ways is that a better outcome than ending the relationship and potentially finding a relationship with someone who does actively try to meet your needs, or at least having more of your time and freedom available to meet your own needs?

I thought up to 2 months ago I was bound by my religion to remain in the marriage, so there couldn't be any question about it. When the possibility came up that I actually wasn't bound in that way, I've been spending my time asking first ":)o I have to try?" That is, does my religion allow me to quit rather than to try? I'm chasing this down quite hard and fast. I know how to try now if I do have to try, and also if I don't have to try but choose to try. But I would really love to see some evidence that you can get better results than what I have seen defined as "better" so far here and in my reading. I read in one place, I forget which now, that BPD has sometimes been observed to get "better" in midlife, but the researchers are really not sure if that's because it really gets "better" or because the SO's just learn better how to cope with and manage it, in combination with other changes such as increased financial security, older children, etc. That made me feel quite sad about the whole thing. I suspect my H's grandfather (now deceased) had BPD, and the relationship between him, his wife, and his daughter when they were 90 and she was 70 (and made to care for them whilst also working) scares me. I doubt the tools will work anymore in old age.

I don't mean to discourage you, by the way, but this is a question I have too about trying. You should maybe spend some time thinking around "why am I trying"? I guess if you know what you are trying for (probably for your daughter's sake in your case), it would help. Someone posted on another thread recently that they are waiting for their kids to get older. That's one good reason, to provide your daughter with security and stability as she grows up.

BetterLanes x

[defogging]

Living - A thought for you regarding situations like the chocolate milk issue.  That is similar to how things play out in my house.  She "needs" something now, I apparently have to solve the problem, and I have one of two choices.  1 - Do it for her, then the needs and demands escalate over time.  2 - Selectively say no, and remind her she can take care of some things herself.

Lately I've been opting for option 2.  I weigh my options based on whether or not it effects the kids.  If it does of course I help out, if it doesn't then I will help her sometimes if it really isn't a big deal to me.  Do I need to I drop everything and go get her chocolate milk?  No, she has a car and money so she is perfectly capable of solving the problem.  However, if I was thinking about going to the store for something else anyways then no problem!  I'll grab the chocolate milk as well.

I've started operating this way because of the divorce threats in the past.  My reasoning is that if I'm such a "bad guy" since I won't do everything for her, then maybe she needs to understand how much I actually do and start solving her own crises.  If she divorced me, she would hit a hard reality by having to take care of all the things I do and never get acknowledgement for.

I think of it as "tough love".  Of course I care for her and want good things for our family, but I refuse to turn into a slave and cater to her every whim.  No one should live like that.  I've noticed it does help, there have been fewer ridiculous demands in the last 6 months.  Of course, I'm still painted black but I was anyways.  One thing I'll say is my uBPDw is very high functioning and highly thought of at work and by other parents, etc.  It's at home where she struggles.  So in my case, if she can perform well at a high level job then she can certainly go get milk.  If it were something she can't do, like her car broke down and we don't know what's wrong, then I step in and take care of it as a good husband should. 

It's a boundary, but a fluid one that has to be evaluated with each demand.  I'm a helper, and sometimes I recognize that I'm doing too much for her as her attitude and demands will grow.  So I push back some, and she becomes more self-sufficient.  But I'm tired of the games, balance always seems unattainable.

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Living,
Wow, you've got your hands full with such a long work week and all that responsibility for your daughter. You have to wonder how on earth your wife can justify spending all her time on social media and doing so little for her child--but somehow it all makes sense in a BPD brain.

I can see that you are very careful in how you speak with her, but she's still interpreting anything but getting what she wants as invalidation.    Trying to reason with her can easily veer into JADEing--I know that well. That's typically where I get caught up with trying to present the "facts" and then I see my husband start to dysregulate. I think to myself, how on earth did a logical, unemotional discussion trigger him, but it does at times and I will never know exactly why.

Like you, I have a hard time pulling off SET without it sounding stilted, so I don't use it as a 1-2-3 communication. I use elements of it through validation and I have to say the Support and Empathy in multiple ways before I attempt the Truth. So, it's more of a concept, less of a formula. It's kind of like playing music--freestyling jazz, rather than playing what's written on the sheet music. It eventually gets the point across, but he's so attuned to anything that appears formulaic, that it's destined to fail if I try that.

Those endless "needs" seem to be her way of trying to fill that perpetual emptiness in her soul. And of course, after she gets what she wants, another "need" pops up, just like endless trays in the dispenser at the cafeteria.

You're in a tough spot, Living, and it sounds like you're running on fumes. Your daughter needs care and your wife isn't stepping up to do that. What about the grandmother? If she really wants to help, perhaps she could take care of your little girl now and then. It certainly would be a better way to help than to keep giving your wife money.

Boundaries, as defogging mentions, are a vital tool for partners of BPD spouses. That said, it's sometimes challenging to identify what exactly is a boundary. Often people think that they can change a pwBPD's behavior through using a boundary. That may happen some times, but not necessarily.

So to determine whether something is a boundary--think what can I do to make this situation better for me?

In the case of your wife having a tantrum, Living, you are under no obligation to listen to her or even remain in the same room. I find that by going elsewhere and depriving my husband of an audience, he will settle down quickly. It's no fun to blow up if no one sees it.

Having a young daughter complicates things, but perhaps you might have a "go" bag with things you need for both her and you and have a prearranged place you can spend the night--or the afternoon if it were the weekend. Some members check themselves into a motel when their partners are raging.

If you consistently refuse to be a witness to her dysregulation, it will likely no longer be as fulfilling to her. Yes, it's a total pain in the butt, but so is the life you're currently leading.

And I totally get this: when she starts to feel happy, or calm, she rushes to have conflict, since that is what she knows.  I used to say something similar about my ex-husband. When things were going well, he would create a crisis. Happened like clockwork.  

Cat

[formflier]

Her: I want this chocolate milk.
 

I'm still "new" to your story... .so I try to stay out of details and get the "big picture".


Here is my impression.  You are trying to solve things for your wife, or perhaps explain things, rather than "connecting" with her.


Her:  "I want this chocolate milk... "

you:  "Isn't it the best... .?  Sometimes I have to have it too... ."


Leave it at that... .you guys connected at an emotional level... .

If she then pesters you buy it... .let her know you'll think about it (again... don't say no)

You are a partner... .not the answer person... solver person and all that.

As you have stated... .she has plenty of access to funds to get chocolate, strawberry, or good ol plain white milk.  She has excluded you from her finances... .so... .don't be part of it.  Respect her decision.

Yet... .still connect with her when she is open to that.

I was also really struck about how you do so much parenting, yet work so many hours and apparently have to micromanage what she does with the child. 

There is a basic question issue here.  If she is safe to leave the child with, then do so and let her be an adult and figure it out.   If she is not safe... .don't leave her and make MAJOR adjustments in your life.

I get the vibe that you are leaving her with your wife and want your wife to care for the child "as you would" if you were there.  Or perhaps care for her by another standard.

You wife is an adult... .let her make her own parenting choices... up until the point they are unsafe.  If that is the case... .don't leave the child.

As you have stated... .most arguments are about the child and/or the care of the child.

Take that off the table.

It's not easy... I have 8 kids.  Late in life BPDish stuff came to our relationship.  If I "rarely"... like every few months... .take a stand about a kid thing, then those "stands" matter.

If you are "taking a stand" every hour... .it's just noise to a BPD.

Do these observations fit?  Please point me in the right direction here... .

FF

[LivingWBPDWife]

Lots of good input -- I am just going to respond to everyone out of order here

So, my BPDs mom is a huge enabler and a major cause I can't make headway. I don't trust her judgement as a parent, and if I don't like the way my wife is treating my daughter, I surely don't want to put my daughter into the hands of the "source" of my wife's problems from abandonment. Plus they are 500+ miles away, thank god.

My wife's addiction to social media and lack of attention may not be putting my daughter into harms way, but it is damaging her emotionally, every study done on "attention" and "abandonment" to children shows, that even parents that are physically in the room MUST be "present", my wife is not. So, I can't just have my wife sit on the computer 12 hours a day and my daughter watch TV -- that will damage her as much as hitting her.  Again, my wife and I had a plan for raising our daughter, this has turned 180 on me, into a plan for my wife to play with social media 24/7. Our daughter has become a chore and job for her. In THREE years, not once has my wife planned an event, activity with my daughter. She refuses to and makes up every excuse in the book --

Let's see on the BPDs getting better, all the studies, books and videos I have consumed say the same thing -- BPD is a real measurable dysfunction of the prefrontal cortex under FMRI scans, it is different than that normals, under developed, the executive part of their brain is stunted. So, it takes years of DBT, and AGE usually 40-50 yrs old seems to be when the symptoms abate a bit probably since the 12 year old emotional mind of the 40-50 year old is now maybe 16-18 yrs old and can cope better.

Getting them into DBT is nearly impossible, finding therapists that don't make things worst is very hard, and all this is $$$$$.

On the chocolate milk thing -- the problem with saying NO or having any discourse, is you just don't know what is going to set them off. It's really hard in real-time to think, what should I say, do here, to make her NOT dysregulate? This is exhausting - damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I think the less contact is the best, but with kid(s), its hard you are constantly thrown at each other by 1000 decisions a day --

I feel like living with a BPD is simply a slow death, until maybe if you're incredibly lucky something changes, they hit rock bottom, change morphology of their brain, ACCEPT they have a problem, drug up on meds.

But, 99% of them think WE are the crazy ones and they are perfectly normal to have temper tantrums when they don't get their way (and if they ever doubt this, they go to their enablers -- her MOM and reinforces this is NORMAL to act CRAZY).

I think I am just going to really work to control myself explaining anything, just say NO, walk away. Or say YES, walk away. But, any explanation, rationalization just pisses them off --

But, the #1 thing that pisses ME off about BPDs is around strangers they seem to UNDERSTAND all these things, and would NEVER act like they do with us -- If my BPD wife was talking to a neighbor or stranger, and they said to her "No, you can't have the chocolate milk, we already have some" -- my BPDw would #1 say, "I'm sorry for asking", then kiss their ass, then tell me how "of course, I shouldn't get another chocolate milk, they already had one!" -- only a child couldn't understand that... .

THIS is the problem. They ARE children in adult bodies, but I can't spank my wife, I can't ground her, I can't take her dolls away --

Anyway, I guess -- I will just try less talking (already the only time she talks to me is when she wants something). Simply, YES, or NO, preferably NO -- since her questions are usually demands. And no explanations unless they are requested.

[defogging]

Living - I'll just hit on a couple things here:

1. Chocolate milk situation:  We had a blowup tonight.  uBPDw took the girls to gymnastics, got home about 7:00.  She had all the kids.  The girls (8,5) are in gymnastics, she sits and watches with our son (3).  They get home at 7, she told them I would have dinner for everyone.  I didn't.  Now, it's usually a crap shoot as to whether she gets them dinner before gymnastics or they wait to eat until afterwards, so I don't know what to do.  She gets mad at me about not having dinner ready, but there was never any text or voicemail letting me know there was an expectation.  That's what usually happens to me, it feels like a setup.  I've also experienced times where I've made dinner and she tells the kids ":)addy made a huge mess and wasted all this food" because they stopped at McD's.  So, there's no way for me to win.

Tonight, my reaction was (and it doesn't follow the guidelines on this site, but sort of works for me):  So, hun, why didn't you just grab dinner for the kids while their class was going on?  (I've done this when I take them.  While they're in class go pick up dinner since you have to watch from a distance anyways)  Her:  You think I have time to go get dinner?  Me: Well, I don't understand.  Were you working (always her excuse, and I know she wasn't) or watching their class?  Her:  Stomp off, angry and shouting about random things that I don't do around the house.  I made the kids a quick dinner (just let her leave the room, don't want them exposed to her whining about how she is a victim) and they were just fine.  Everything cooled down within 20 minutes with no more words said.

Yeah, I know, my response was very invalidating.  BUT - the funny thing in my house is this actually works as good as anything.  If I challenge her a little bit, she will make changes and I wouldn't be surprised if she starts getting them dinner while they're in class.  She's done this numerous times before.  Argue, fight, blame, then she starts doing what I suggest as if it were her own idea and I'm an idiot because I never told her about it.  uBPDw is highly intelligent so SET doesn't work at all, not JADEing does work, but for some reason she can see a little logic which I'm thankful for.

So, just an (unorthodox) example of something that has worked.  If nothing else, I don't have to fret at home over whether I should make food or not. 

2.  Your last sentence about not talking anymore.  Yeah man, that's where I'm at, and what I was talking about when I said it's a lonely journey.  I'm coming out of the fog now and reestablishing old connections, but it's rough.  The person I could talk to before is someone I can't trust with my emotions, or she'll use them against me.  I can't talk to anyone else about it because they don't see it.  My uBPDw tries to turn everyone against me, and the kids are too young to see her BS.  So, I'm a man trying to do everything right with (seemingly) the world against me.

I guess my only advice here would be that I agree that talking less makes for fewer blowups, but that made the marriage colder in my case.  I try to act like a caring husband, but it's hard because I wear my emotions on my sleeve and I can't show someone I love them when they have eroded my trust.  I really don't care about the relationship anymore, and that makes it hard to be compassionate.  But honestly, when someone keeps creating their own problems, how long can you feel sympathy for them?  It's a fine balancing act to keep your inner resolve while bending a lot to keep BPDs grounded.

[formflier]

  So, I can't just have my wife sit on the computer 12 hours a day and my daughter watch TV -- that will damage her as much as hitting her. 


Again, my wife and I had a plan for raising our daughter, this has turned 180 on me, into a plan for my wife to play with social media 24/7.

Hey man... .we are here for you, it's obvious you are hurting (with good reason), ... .let's take a big breath and be thoughtful (vice emotionally reactive) about plans for your daughters childcare.

I can't imagine the bolded part is true... .or even close to it. 

I also can't imagine that this dynamic will go on for long once you disengage from it.

Yes... .many of us had plans.  Those have been changed.        I'm so sorry. 

Please be kind to yourself.  What can you do to give yourself some space, so we can be thoughtful about care for your daughter.

As you have said... that's 99% of the conflict.  Getting rid of half of that will dramatically improve your life. 

I bet we get rid of more than half...

FF

PS... .Be kind to yourself... it really is important. (yep... important enough to mention twice.)
 

[formflier]

On the chocolate milk thing -- the problem with saying NO or having any discourse, is you just don't know what is going to set them off. It's really hard in real-time to think, what should I say, do here, to make her NOT dysregulate? This is exhausting - damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I agree... .there is no "good" way out.  Therefore... you can pick the healthy way, knowing that they would be pissed anyway... right?

Again... .I'm agreeing with you... .you will be damned either way.  Do you see how liberating that is?


So... .stand up for you and your values... and your daughter.  Guess what... you wife will still have a BPD fit (just like before). 

Only now... you are living for your values... your boundaries based on those values... .and your wife just might start connecting the dots that the "dysfunctional fix" that she was getting before by throwing a  fit... .just isn't working anymore.

STOP.  Read the above paragraph several times. 

Now... .consider this.  If something stops "working" for your wife... .what do you think she will do?

FF

[LivingWBPDWife]

I tried today to NOT talk to her as much as possible, but there are so many things that put our daughter in the middle of things. Every night, we fight over taking her to bed due to the social media addiction. I try to reason with her about TIME -- say, let's eat dinner EARLIER so you have 1-2 hours to look at social media -- if she does make dinner early. Then she takes 2-3 hours on social media, and get's our daughter to bed late over an hour.

Then when she is late, I say in a calm voice "Please can you take her to bed, its 1 hour after her bed time" -- depending on my mood I might add in, "you have been on the phone 2 hours straight, you promissed if I bought you dinner, and you didn't have to cook, then you would get her to bed on time" --

My wife will usually say "well, that's your fault for trusting me, you know I lie all the time"

Sigh... .

Then finally after she gets off the phone, her dog which is untrained for the last 10 years is peeing in the house, so I have been trying to train the dog, take it out on a schedule, etc. I have had MANY dogs -- but, she refuses - due to social media. I might say "Please will you take her out, she needs to go, she is pacing" -- my BPD will usually ignore me, or mock me in a voice, and then say "2 f'ing mins" -- of course, its been 1-2 hours that she has been transfixed -- and the dog is about to pee. If I don't do EVERYTHING, things fall apart, but this is the BPD strategy, force others to do everything -- My wife's favorite thing to do is leave dog poop on the carpet, pretend she doesn't see it, I come in, and I am like what the hell? Clean this up? This is disgusting, then she says, "well, it doesn't bother me, I was going to do it in a couple mins after I get done with my phone".

How do you even start to deal with this?

And sometimes, I am so frustrated I will say "please don't talk to me like that, it hurts my feeling, you don't have to be mean all the time, you can choose to be civil, I asked you a simple question, that's all"

To which she just responded, "I hate you and want to make you hate me as much as I hate you".

I am just so sick of this CRAZY behavior, IF her instagram followers, or PARENTS, or FRIENDS could just see how she is and how she talks to me --

But, no one does, she just hides everything -- lies to everyone, acts in front of everyone.

Who says something like "I want you to hate me as much as I hate you" --

I am sitting here, trying to work -- and it just sucks. BPDs are SO broken. Every time I feel like "today has been ok", something sets her off, she gets off the phone with her mom, an instagram post didn't get likes, SOMETHING -- then she comes looking for a fight, asks something that has no possible rational answer and when I respond, or don't respond, or something in the middle, she rages -- I am just tired of this. Fed up.

I mean, do they EVER get tired of being asss? Ever? I would think after years of temper tantrums, rages, pouting, lying, they would just think, I am sick of being this way, and DO something about it -- I get that's the definition of "mental illness" -- to them, every day is new, and they can't stop.

[formflier]

why not just put the girl to bed yourself... save the hassle?

[LivingWBPDWife]

Well, I would, but she wants to play, read, etc. take a bath, and I have to work at that time. And if I do that then my BPDw has got me to do yet another thing that is her job. There are so many hours in the day, and BPDs are very skilled at finding ways NOT to contribute unless it benefits them -- I learned that a long time ago. So, my BPD will literally leave dog poop from her dog in the middle of the floor and not clean it, and just wait for me to see it when I come in. She knows I won't tolerate such filth. And I will ask her to clean it, scream, say that's disgusting, doesn't matter. I have photos and videos of her doing this many times with crap literally at her feet and just playing with social media.

Showed it to her therapist, she agreed its disgusting, but there's nothing I can do, but clean it which gives my BPDw power.

So, my BPDw leave "crap" everywhere now, both literally and figuratively, since she knows I will "clean" it, so if I don't maintain boundaries she just keeps moving them. Taking my daughter to bed is one of them, bathing her is another, brushing her teeth, feeding her, etc. I can't work 80 hours a week AND be dad and mom 247, my BPDw MUST contribute, but she refuses, so I am left to do many of these things WHILE my BPDw plays with social media 10-12 hours a day -- so if I do all these things it may stop the "fight", but then I can't pay my mortgage.

The #1 problem is her addiction to social media, it leaves no time for chores, our daughter, and she is so distracted, she sees dog crap, pee, etc. and walks over it, gets on the phone, and 1-2 hours later gets to after the house smells, daughter is gagging from smell.

My BPDw would NEVER let outsiders know how filthy she is -- but, its a side effect of social media addiction.

[defogging]

I can relate to feeling like you are dad/mom at the same time.  One thing I've done is reframe it in my mind as spending time with my kids (individual sessions with a T helped me with that).  My uBPDw has many night meetings which leaves me alone with three kids at least one night per week.  May not sound like a lot, but when it comes with attacks afterwards about how I'm not doing any of it right it's exhausting.  There's always something I forgot to do - homework, piano practice, packing lunches, etc.  That used to make me angry and the stress of doing it all correctly made me a grumpy dad, now I shrug off her attacks and am better with the kids.

In my situation, uBPDw tries to turn the kids against me a lot.  Doesn't really work, they love daddy and we have good bonds.  While the night meetings used to frustrate me, I try to turn it into a fun time for everyone now.  Eventually they are going to start figuring out mom's instability and they will gravitate towards the parent that is calm and collected.  Keep your eye on the prize and build that bond with your kiddo.  Also, you can try to find ways to make things easier on yourself.  Bath time in our house takes awhile, sometimes I turn that into "hey, just jump in the shower with dad".  Boom, all done within ten minutes and I needed a shower anyways.

Dog poop - Yeah, that's nasty and I don't know if I could put up with it either.  In my case, I've learned to just let some things go that bother me.  (I'll admit dog poop is a BIG one!)  I like to cook and have a clean kitchen.  She likes to bake and apparently is okay with a nasty kitchen.  I used to clean her messes up and get frustrated all the time.  Now, if it's her mess I just leave it.  Right now we have a huge ant problem because of sugar everywhere on the counter.  Of course she blames it on the dog food bowl (which is maybe 10% of the issue). 

I'd bet if you were willing to ignore the dog poop it would start getting cleaned up.  If people are coming over to the house, wait for her to clean it up or just let them see it.  They know it's her dog and she doesn't work, so she should have time to keep a clean house.

For me, it was the running around trying to make everything look "normal" that frustrated me the most.  Take that frustration, add BPD attacks on top of it, uBPDw's subtle digs at me in front of others which would provoke my reaction, and that's how she would make me look like the crazy one.  Now I don't care what others think, I know I'm doing my best to give my kids a good life.  When people come over to the house they see my office is tidy, while the kitchen and her desk are a s**t show.  People aren't dumb, they get what's happening even if they don't say anything.

Maybe prioritize what is most important to you, and decide which things you can ignore and let her take care of.  It would come with extinction bursts, but may end up making some things better.  If nothing else, just not caring about something makes you less frustrated.

[defogging]

This thread made me think of this.  I'm a big fan of Jocko Willink (former Navy Seal, has a podcast).  He gives a lot of good advice that can apply in our situations (and life in general), listening to him helps get me in a better frame of mind.

Here's a quick clip of his that I like.  Basically, anytime something goes wrong reframe it and look for the good that came from it.  This is not feel-good BS, it's a hard realistic look at life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTMDpizis8

[Cat Familiar]

So, Living, your wife has you over a barrel because you have standards of cleanliness and a sense of responsibility for your daughter’s well being.

When you take care of tasks she neglects, then she puts those responsibilities into your chore bucket.

Problem is you work long hours and do not have the time or energy to pick up the slack for everything she neglects while she’s on social media most of her waking hours.

What do you see as the breaking point in this system? Things sound unsustainable.

[Red5]

Afternoon Living,

I have been reading your post, and I can also relate to many of the things you have written, sounds like you have been on the hard road for a while now, as many of us here have.

Your questions was, “do pw/BPD ever get better”?

Well, this is what I think I know and understand now:

*They only get better; “help” if they even recognize that there is a problem, which as you wrote (99.99%) don’t ever admit that there is even a problem, so there you go.

*Is there a “cure”, no there is not, pw/BPD only learn how to manage their anger/issues/personality disorders through intense, and lengthy therapy, see bullet #1 above.

*The pw/BPD, BPD exists on a spectrum, maybe left to right, left being “not so bad”… and the further to the right you go, the more intense the BPD is, you may have a person with BPD who is “not so bad” ie’ “left of center”, and then you may have one that is completely off the rails, ie’ malignant, “hard right against the stops”… these folks you cannot help, talk to, or else really EVER deal with, done, stick a fork in it… sorry,

I read today… “While people with Borderline Personality Disorder can learn to manage their own emotional outbursts, many people with co-morbid conditions like Narcissism or an Anti-Social personality type cannot. For that reason alone, armchair diagnosis is simply recommended in order to seek counseling for abuse victims.”

“Victim” = “Non’s… ie’ me and you.

So, what can you do?

*Learn and learn some more, seek and collect as much knowledge as you can on the subject, once you understand what you are dealing with (spectrum), there are things you can do to take control, and elicit a degree of controls as it pertains to your relationship, in a word… boundaries, strong boundaries.

*You used the word “force”… which to me is the same as “power”… which is defined as healthy sense of self-worth, a “frame of mind”… maybe said another way, a “strong demeanor”, set boundaries, and then enforce them… not easy, as your pw/BPD will try to go right over the boundary, or go around, or go under… and or right through it… and it takes time to establish your demeanor of strength, force, power; in the never ending BPD situations, but over time you can do this.

*I have been able to do this in my own marriage, it has not been easy, it has taken a very long time to reestablish/reinvent myself in the marriage relationship… I used to be a “push over”, I was always trying to “make her happy”, her happiness in my mind meant “less floggings” as it were, some floggings were emotional, some were mental, and even some physical… but one day I said “that’s enough”… “you are NOT going to speak to me in that tone anymore”… and I am still here, oh’ yes, fun times.

*You wrote about “childlike behavior”… and yes, I do believe that BPD is brought about… in some cases; maybe most cases by early childhood trauma of some sort, so what you have is a developmentally delayed adult… so when she dysregulates, you are now dealing with a petulant teenager, or even younger... .NOT a thirty something adult… again fun times!

*I will close with this, I do not believe that pw/BPD will ever get “better” (cured?), no, that’s not going to happen, so if you stay, you have to learn to deal with it, I have learned the term(s)… “radical acceptance”… I use the tools that are presented here on this website, as well many other internet resources (or library )… yes, knowledge is power, get the “intel”… you must gain the upper hand, stop reacting to each and every incident, and start acting (appropriately) when “it” happens… be able to “step out” and away from the behaviors, don’t “JADE”, don’t argue in endless circles, don’t “take it personal” as they say here.

*I know that’s not easy, but if you stop reacting, then pw/BPD will stop attacking after a while… don’t put up with nonsense, it’s not an easy road, and it’s not accomplished over night, but you too can reach a point, a place of strength, and she won’t come after you so much anymore, and the mayhem, and chaos will subside somewhat.

*There will still of course “be days” where you are witness to, even the receiver of a full blown dysregulative attack, and or onslaught, but if you “man up”… and hold strong that boundary, even as the “willow blows”… she will start to learn… she will learn that you are not going to put up with “it” anymore, easier said than done, I know !… but it can be done nonetheless.

You MUST exude a demeanor of strength, mentally; emotionally, and also physically, .take charge... .she needs to learn that you are not to be trifled with, that you are not her target of convenience (punching bag) when she feels like "beating up" on somebody... .she needs to learn to respect you, (boundaries), without that, she will run over you roughshod each and every time she comes unglued.

Last line here, take good care of your daughter, she is in no way able to deal with a pw/BPD at her young and very formative age, STOP the cycle now, protect her, guard her, and do not let her become a target, stop the cycle, or it will continue on into the next generation.

Best wishes Living!… keep posting,

Red5

[formflier]

You MUST exude a demeanor of strength, mentally; emotionally, and also physically, .... take charge ... .she needs to learn that you are not to be trifled with, that you are not her target of convenience (punching bag) when she feels like "beating up" on somebody ... .she needs to learn to respect you, (boundaries), without that, she will run over you roughshod each and every time she comes unglued.

Hmmm... .Red 5... who ever thought you would need to "act like a Marine" at home?   

FF

[LivingWBPDWife]

As usual, everyone's input is so accurate -- It's funny, this comment:

" I used to clean her messes up and get frustrated all the time.  Now, if it's her mess I just leave it.  Right now we have a huge ant problem because of sugar everywhere on the counter.  Of course she blames it on the dog food bowl (which is maybe 10% of the issue).  "

I did the same, now we have a cockroach problem due to my wife leaves her BO clothes in a pile, won't put them in the laundry, leaves them in a nice dark, wet pile. Anyway, every day I tell her about insects, ants, cockroaches -- I live in a really nice house, upscale neighborhood, and here I am trying to get my wife to not act like we live in a cardboard box.

Another poster mentioned about having to act like a marine Or joking about it -- I am a very strong willed person, but I like to get to the bottom of things, I like discourse, I like being right, who doesn't, but I like doing things the RIGHT way even better -- but, BPDs do NOT like to talk "Can we talk?" is translated into (paraphrasing for a BPD that does seminars on her experience and recovery) -- anyway, she said "Can we talk?" sounds like, "Your stupid moron, I have to once again explain how dumb you are?"

That said, whenever I assert myself, say "NO", my BPDw turns into "you are a control freak" -- in fact, I do NOT want to tell her ANYTHING -- I want to drink beer, watch sports, be a lazy bum like she is! But, either a BPD gets their way, OR you are the control freak, monster, reason why everything in their life is bad.

I mean, there's no getting around -- WE as the nons have to adjust and adapt, re-imagine ourselves, our lives, and almost act out a script around BPDs to tolerate the level of crazy.

Tonight my BPDw worked herself up so much she had a panic attack, she thought she was having a heart attack at 35 years old and 115 lbs (this has happened MANY times before), and she starts screaming at me about taking her to the ER -- I try to calm her, and tell her, in 9 years, you have never had to go to the ER, but if your heart doesn't feel better, we will go, not a problem. But --- and this is one thing that is really hard for me to deal with -- BPDs feel emotion; anger, resentment, rage toward US NONs BEFORE what they perceive "might" happen has even happened, they basically imagine its happening, but to them that's REAL they can't tell the difference in their brain -- and then they FEEL like we did the thing to them they imagined... .and we get the rage.

And we pay for it -- It drives me nuts.

I don't know, I post on here for some glimmer of hope, but I know all too well, there's a snow ball chance in hell, she will ever get better, if I could afford more therapists, they probably will do more damage than good, and in 1-2-3 years after $1000's of dollars, I am in the same boat.

I am at the point where I know I HAVE to continue to change -- and just deal with it, and the only thing I think that would have an immediate effect on the quality of my life would be for her to take mood stabilizers, talking is not, has not, and seems will never make a difference.

I liken BPDs to people that are on the extreme range of the autistic spectrum, they simply can't process language, social cues, etc. the way others do, its just physics, and BPDs are the same with emotions. They just seem "normal" to the outsider which allows them literally to turn every single person against the NONs in their life and paint us as monsters --

I guess, the thing that makes it hard every day is the constant threats about divorce and causing a huge custody battle, loosing the house, my biz, everything since I can't just drop things to fight a court battle, she can live at her parents rent free, and they will give her money and support, and all the while my 3 year old is weaponized by my BPD as a bargaining chip.

I just need to find a way to live in the same house, so my daughter has some semblance of a family, but each day my BPD just picks fight after fight. In her mind, I have no right to talk to her, ask her anything, request anything, have any input, she want's to be in control of EVERYTHING - else, she goes into a rage, tantrum or some mixed dysregulation. My nerves are shot, how can she keep this up? I would think she would just try to get along a "little" bit, but no, she just explodes 5-10 times a day.

That more than anything, just makes this unsustainable like another poster commented on -- yup, agree -- but, its this OR a major court battle with a pathological liar BPD, that will be a walk in the park... .

[Cat Familiar]

Living, It sounds like you've done a lot of research. You realize that without longterm treatment such as DBT, it's unlikely that your wife will improve. And you likely understand how difficult it is not only to get pwBPD into treatment, but also to get them to comply and modify their behavior.

So what now? You're tired of the mess and chaos that she creates in your nice home, her addiction to social media, her neglect of your daughter's physical needs. You've discovered that talking seems to be of no use and just becomes grounds for an argument.

You realize that you'll have to adapt to her behavior as that is the only way to get through this quagmire. And yes, it's not fair. You're already at your wit's end, working long hours, picking up the slack for house chores and your daughter's care that she neglects while she spends most of her day on social media. You don't see any motivation for her to change her life, since it's probably working out very well for her just the way it currently is.

The idea of divorcing is unnerving since you have observed that she can easily manipulate people and get them to believe her and would be willing to create a false narrative to advance her side. You want to be able to live peacefully in your home and provide a two parent household for your daughter. And you're hoping to get away from the fights your wife generates multiple times during the day.

What would happen if you didn't respond to her trying to engage you in conflict?