Do borderlines gaslight?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all, 

Just curious to know what your experience has been with gaslighting? I was reading an article about gaslighting and they attributed the technique more to narcissists, but I swear uBPDh Jedi mind messes with me. He talks so much and conversations go in circles that by the end I find myself either agreeing or apologizing. I second guess my decisions now more than ever.

Interested to hear others take and experiences. Thanks in advance.
Be good to yourselves, everyone.

[starlet564]

Hi all, 

Just curious to know what your experience has been with gaslighting? I was reading an article about gaslighting and they attributed the technique more to narcissists, but I swear uBPDh Jedi mind messes with me. He talks so much and conversations go in circles that by the end I find myself either agreeing or apologizing. I second guess my decisions now more than ever.

Interested to hear others take and experiences. Thanks in advance.
Be good to yourselves, everyone.

[Cat Familiar]

I swear uBPDh Jedi mind messes with me. He talks so much and conversations go in circles that by the end I find myself either agreeing or apologizing. I second guess my decisions now more than ever.

That's a good way of putting it: Jedi mind messes! 

I experienced this in my marriage to my first husband. I would decide to talk with him about an issue I was having with his behavior. I'd plan out what I was going to say, trying to take the emotionality out, and be really precise with my language of what I wanted, what I didn't want, how his behavior affected me, etc.

Then, as soon as I'd began speaking, he'd take over and suddenly I was the one with the problem and like you, I'd find myself apologizing for something I had done.

Then, sitting alone hours later, I'd wonder, what the hell just happened? 

[defogging]

In my house, most certainly!  It was all very confusing until I read about it in SWOE, then it all made sense.

[Nixie_3]

Yes, my husband does the same thing. I will try to talk about my feelings or how something he has done feels hurtful and somehow it ends up turned around on me so I have to apologize. And then he acts like I'm crazy for not feeling comfortable discussing some things with him.

[udunnome81]

Absolutely! My hopefully soon to be BPDxWife still continues to try to gaslight me. I have physical custody of our 3 children, and am tying to get full custody in the divorce.

She tries to say she has information about me that will affect the outcome of a custody hearing and can't ever seem to come up with anything to actually claim. It is totally an empty threat. In fact she can never say anything negative and back it up. It's ALL gaslighting, almost everything that comes out of her is an attempt to manipulate somehow.

[starlet564]

Thanks for sharing everyone!  It’s amazing how similar our experiences can be. These circular conversations that just go round and round with no point.

Like today, he wasn’t feeling well and was napping. When I got home I checked in on him. He slightly opened his eyes so I told him I had returned and asked if he needed me to get him anything. He proceeded to chew me out saying that I was selfish for walking, useless because I am not healing him the way he needs to be healed and I’m just a frustration. Mind you this was a 20 min diatribe. I wound up apologizing for checking and and waking him up. Like you, @Cat Familiar, I thought what the hell just happened?

@Nixie_3, we’ll always be the crazy ones in their eyes because they’re totally sane.

@udunnome81 it’s all baseless! Their completely disassociated for any concept of reality.

We must stay strong friends! 

What does SWOE stand for, @defogging?

[Cat Familiar]

Hey starlet564,
You don’t need to stand there for a twenty minute diatribe. It will be difficult to break the pattern of listening to him trash you, but you don’t owe him that. As formflier often says, “take your ears elsewhere.”

Oh and SWOE means stop walking on eggshells, from the book of the same name.  It’s a good read for those of us who are dealing with a BPD partner.

Cat

[DivDad]

You asked the question... .":)oes a BPD gaslight?"   Well, does a bear... .
Seriously, my exBPDw would rage at me and say horrible things to me. I started to question myself if I did the made=up things or said those things.  It took me a number of years and T to finally place boundaries around the rages. That is, find a time and place when things are calm, and nicely tell the BPD that if they start their verbal abuse and accusations, that you will politely leave the house and will be back later (usually an hour or two).  The boundaries were challenged many times, but after awhile, the BPD finally got the message that I wouldn't be in the same room as a backboard for their rages.  That didn't stop the email and text message abuse, but it did put me in a place where I didn't internalize all the verbal abuse that surrounded me.    As a point, don't storm out of the house and show anger etc., just say, "I mentioned to you that I will not stay here and hear this... .I'll be back later" and just quietly leave the house.     

[defogging]

Yep, Cat Familiar beat me to it.  The book Stop Walking On Eggshells was very helpful to me.

Another good read is Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.

[starlet564]

You don’t need to stand there for a twenty minute diatribe. It will be difficult to break the pattern of listening to him trash you, but you don’t owe him that. As formflier often says, “take your ears elsewhere.”

Oh and SWOE means stop walking on eggshells, from the book of the same name.  It’s a good read for those of us who are dealing with a BPD partner.

Thank you for the insights, Cat!

I have begun to leave the house recently. For the last three days I’ve been doing that. He proceeds to blow up my phone, but that’s definitely better that having to listen to it directly!

[starlet564]

You asked the question... .":)oes a BPD gaslight?"   Well, does a bear... .
Seriously, my exBPDw would rage at me and say horrible things to me. I started to question myself if I did the made=up things or said those things.  It took me a number of years and T to finally place boundaries around the rages. That is, find a time and place when things are calm, and nicely tell the BPD that if they start their verbal abuse and accusations, that you will politely leave the house and will be back later (usually an hour or two).  The boundaries were challenged many times, but after awhile, the BPD finally got the message that I wouldn't be in the same room as a backboard for their rages.  That didn't stop the email and text message abuse, but it did put me in a place where I didn't internalize all the verbal abuse that surrounded me.    As a point, don't storm out of the house and show anger etc., just say, "I mentioned to you that I will not stay here and hear this... .I'll be back later" and just quietly leave the house.     

That’s very helpful, DivDad! I have to stop engaging. When the text abuse begins it’s so incessant. I know he’s pushing buttons to get a rise. I have to not give in.

[Cat Familiar]

Good work, starlet! And you don't have to read those texts either.

My BPD mother would write me awful letters the year after I graduated from college. It was so devastating reading them, that my best friend and roommate started opening them instead. She'd read the letters, then tell me any news that was important, and then say, "You don't even want to look at this."

It felt good having a witness to the written abuse because then I couldn't delude myself and think it was just me being too sensitive.

[starlet564]

My BPD mother would write me awful letters the year after I graduated from college. It was so devastating reading them, that my best friend and roommate started opening them instead. She'd read the letters, then tell me any news that was important, and then say, "You don't even want to look at this."

It felt good having a witness to the written abuse because then I couldn't delude myself and think it was just me being too sensitive.

I've begun to do the same thing showing my friend the text messages since I've sought refuge at her house. 

It's so interesting too.  Your signature... .the 4 agreements.  Those are principles he tries to live by despite being "an injured man", but because of his BPD is incapable of doing so.

[Cat Familiar]

Your signature... .the 4 agreements.  Those are principles he tries to live by despite being "an injured man", but because of his BPD is incapable of doing so.

Good that you're getting an outside perspective from your friend. We can get so highly insular in our relationships with our BPD partners due to our embarrassment of how they're behaving, them sabotaging our outside relationships, being emotionally manipulated by them, etc. That's why posting here and maintaining friendships is so important--so that we have some healthy consensual reality to cling to when they're trying to hypnotize us with their own twisted version of reality.

LOL about the 4 agreements with a pwBPD--especially "on't take things personally." They take everything personally. And "on't make assumptions."

My current husband (no exaggeration) has thousands! of Buddhism books. He prides himself on his knowledge and understanding of very obscure lineages and traditions of Buddhism. Yet does that influence his behavior?    Maybe it does--maybe he'd be far worse without it.

My previous husband could talk the greatest talk about spirituality--he would have been a very inspirational religious leader had he chosen that path. But his behavior consisted of serial infidelity, financial irresponsibility, drug abuse, physical verbal and emotional violence.

PwBPD are often great at talking the talk, but they just don't walk the walk.

[Red5]

Hi all, 

Just curious to know what your experience has been with gaslighting?... .

Good Morning Starlet !

Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity.

I will offer this, .once I learnt about BPD, and gaslighting, and all the other quintessential terms that go along with... .

I have come to refer (personally) to gasligting, as rewriting history, as in rewrite to "suit" the pw/BPD's perception of events... .to coincide, and to validate what they may be thinking, or saying at a particular moment in time... .another term I use "to myself"; to explain to myself what is happening in real time, when my u/BPDW and I are 1v1, I refer to this as "emotional reasoning" on the part of the pw/BPD, being my udx wife... .you see, this what the pw/BPD is doing in their own mind, they are NOT dealing with facts, or logic, but they are letting their own unchecked emotions rule their moment, a full blown dysregulation maybe, maybe not.

In fact, I heard my own MIL doing this to my W last night on the phone, .and then... .my W did it right back to her mum (MIL), .I had to laugh, albeit to myself.

I think (dangerous pastime )... .that once the Non (we-you-me) becomes "aware" to the BPD behavior, ie' gasligting, .that you, we, I... .  immediately recognizes it as soon as its employed/deployed, ."trotted out" by the pw/BPD... .so I label it "rewriting history"... .and I treat it as such, and I act as required, .as in I may call it out, or just let it go... .and move on smartly.

Yes, I talk a lot to myself, this way I am never alone  !

Thoughts?

Red5

[starlet564]

That's why posting here and maintaining friendships is so important--so that we have some healthy consensual reality to cling to when they're trying to hypnotize us with their own twisted version of reality.

Cat, that's it... .Hypnotized!  That's exactly what I feel like.  I was entranced!  When his behavior or certain things he would say didn't jive I would question, challenge and my little intuition even gave me physical cues with upset stomachs, headaches and tingling, but he would use his dangling stopwatch of words to get me to ignore and go along with everything he said.  From that point on, everything he said and did I rationalized. 

My current husband (no exaggeration) has thousands! of Buddhism books. He prides himself on his knowledge and understanding of very obscure lineages and traditions of Buddhism. Yet does that influence his behavior?    Maybe it does--maybe he'd be far worse without it.

My previous husband could talk the greatest talk about spirituality--he would have been a very inspirational religious leader had he chosen that path. But his behavior consisted of serial infidelity, financial irresponsibility, drug abuse, physical verbal and emotional violence.

Glad to hear your no longer with your previous husband that sounded rough.    Although I share in your experience too!  He talks all about Thich Nhat Hanh and Sun Tzu and meeting with Deepak Chopra, but there hasn't been peace in our relationship for a long while.  Also, my Christian faith is very important to me.  That is something we connected on very deeply.  We both share the same faith, but like you said my uBPDh thinks he's more enlightened then the priests he talks to.  He pontificates to everyone and has even decided he wants to start a ministry! He uses the Bible to suit his needs with how I need to behave and what I need to believe, but like you said his behavior consists of not providing for his family (even though he has a plan), spending in excess, marijuana dependence and emotional and verbal abuse.

I have come to refer (personally) to gasligting, as rewriting history, as in rewrite to "suit" the pw/BPD's perception of events ... .to coincide, and to validate what they may be thinking, or saying at a particular moment in time ... .another term I use "to myself"; to explain to myself what is happening in real time, when my u/BPDW and I are 1v1, I refer to this as "emotional reasoning" on the part of the pw/BPD, being my udx wife ... .you see, this what the pw/BPD is doing in their own mind, they are NOT dealing with facts, or logic, but they are letting their own unchecked emotions rule their moment, a full blown dysregulation maybe, maybe not.

I think (dangerous pastime ) ... .that once the Non (we-you-me) becomes "aware" to the BPD behavior, ie' gasligting, ... .that you, we, I ... .  immediately recognizes it as soon as its employed/deployed, ... ."trotted out" by the pw/BPD ... .so I label it "rewriting history" ... .and I treat it as such, and I act as required, ... .as in I may call it out, or just let it go ... .and move on smartly.

Red5, it's good your able to immediately recognize it.  I am only starting too and my emotions are still involved so much that I'm not always successful at it.  It's always suits their needs.  "Emotional reasoning" is a perfect way to describe it!  He's so passionate about what he's feeling and thinking that he twists ever so slightly certain facts that it's confusing and throws my recollection off kilter because he's so adamant about it, I give in to what he had told me.  Thankfully, I now recognize that and am not doing that any more!   

[once removed]

hi starlet564,

you generally wont hear the term "gaslighting" in a clinical setting. if you google it, or poll people, you will get a thousand different definitions.

usually, the issue is more about listening and engaging on both sides, and conflict style. i think in this case, what you are talking about are circular arguments.

fortunately, we have a workshop for that (here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0)!

ive certainly been there. its an exhausting place to be. the thing is, it takes two people to have a circular argument. we dont have to participate in one. i realized there were elements about me, and my conflict style that drew me into this dynamic (despite my not wanting to be there) and ways in which i fueled it. it took some "unlearning" (spotting those ways in which i perpetuated a circular argument, mature ways to exit), and some learning tools like learning not to JADE, how to take a healthy time out, etc. it wasnt at all intuitive, but ultimately it was really freeing. if i catch myself starting to restate my point of view more than once (twice max), or arguing endlessly about things i find absurd, if im getting wound up, i check myself, and let it go, and maybe revisit it (maybe not) when both parties have cooled off.

using this as a guide, what stage would you say your relationship is in: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[Red5]

... .circular arguments.

... .I've certainly been there. its an exhausting place to be.

... .if i catch myself starting to restate my point of view more than once (twice max), or arguing endlessly about
things i find absurd, if im getting wound up, i check myself, and let it go,

A mental picture of on of those "roundabout" traffic circles with a grand statue in the middle just popped into my mind  !

Red5

[formflier]

Hey... a bit late to the discussion.  I'm generally not a fan of gaslighting as a term and my understand is bpdfamily kinda frowns on it, although I'm not exactly sure why.

Here is my reasoning/understanding.

To me gaslighting is "intentional".  So someone thoughtfully creates a reality and pushes it onto another person.

Now... think about pwBPD.  How much stuff do they "intentionally" do in their life... vice reactively do.


I get it... .it "seems" to us as they are pushing this view or that reality or "re-writing" things (and they are).  The reason they are is their "feelings" vice a plot to destroy your life and/or the world.

The effect on you can be the same, yet I believe it is important to understand the "source".

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Good parsing of the term, FF! I think you nailed it why bpdfamily doesn't approve. Yes, gaslighting is premeditated, while what pwBPD do is likely merely reactive.

[formflier]

I'm not sure how you tell the difference or if even trying to tell the difference is at all helpful.

Broadly... .if the person you are dealing with acts very differently in different emotional states... .then it is likely reactive... .BPDish.

I've always thought of gaslighting as "cold and calculating"... not really tied to emotional upset... or emotional things.

To be provactive... .or at least to provoke some thought along a different point of view... .I might even argue that we nons are more apt to "gaslight" pwBPD they they are of us.  (hang with me here)

Think about it.  We "rationally" (perhaps with calculation) consider many of the words we use "on them" to try to "push them" into a reality that matches our own... .knowing full well that their reality is different than ours.

I'm being very careful not to use "right and wrong".
.
How's that for an interesting thing to consider... .that "we" gaslight them and not the other way around?

Oh wait... .our reality is "right"... .and "healthy"... .so that's ok... right?

 


   

FF

[Red5]

How's that for an interesting thing to consider... .that "we" gaslight them and not the other way around?

Oh wait... .our reality is "right"... .and "healthy"... .so that's ok... right?

Good point FF!,

Kinda like “cointelpro”... .   hmmm, yes, .I can  see myself doing this, 

And I agree it’s emotional, not intentional, in most cases, depends on how far to the right pw/BPD (BPD) is on the spectrum.

Red5

[once removed]

to clarify... .

"gaslighting" is a "pop psych" term. its origin is a play that became a movie, where a main character deliberately sets about on a course of actions, like "He leads her to believe she's stealing things without realizing it and hearing noises that aren’t really there... .all with the aim of getting back into the house to continue searching for Alice's jewels... .Gregory does everything in his power to convince his wife that she is going mad, hoping to have her certified as insane and then institutionalized, giving him power of attorney over her, and allowing him unabated to continue his search for the jewels.".

so theres a clear means to an end to this well thought out scheme, which is financial gain.

is this a realistic description of what any of us are experiencing? if so, then there are far more serious problems than mental illness at play, and there are no tools that are going to help anyone in that situation.

the term has grown wildly in recent years. if you google, you will find a billion different definitions that describe any form of disagreement or even every day invalidating words like "you are too sensitive" as a deliberate attempt to get you to question and doubt your sanity (why? to what end?). i was watching the news when i heard a pundit ask "is so and so gaslighting themselves?". as im reading now, apparently you can "reverse gaslight" someone   a member here asked if his ex telling him that she fell out of love and had moved on was gaslighting. another member asked if the "love bombing" (another growing pop psych term) he experienced, which preceded his ex becoming moody, was a form of gaslighting.

bpdfamily arent the word police. its not about BPD vs NPD or premeditation vs reaction. its just that plain english and details help us all better understand each others, and our own situations. terms like "gaslighting" tend to obscure all of that and diminish clarity where we are looking for understanding. maybe we are all gaslighting each other by using the term  

again, most of the time, we are describing something like... .

a basic disagreement
a disagreement on a version of events
someone who lied, got caught, and deflected
pathological lying

simple. universally understandable. a circumstance where you can apply tools.

[Cat Familiar]

Fabulous explanation, OR. Thank you.

[starlet564]

ive certainly been there. its an exhausting place to be. the thing is, it takes two people to have a circular argument. we dont have to participate in one. i realized there were elements about me, and my conflict style that drew me into this dynamic (despite my not wanting to be there) and ways in which i fueled it. it took some "unlearning" (spotting those ways in which i perpetuated a circular argument, mature ways to exit), and some learning tools like learning not to JADE, how to take a healthy time out, etc. it wasnt at all intuitive, but ultimately it was really freeing. if i catch myself starting to restate my point of view more than once (twice max), or arguing endlessly about things i find absurd, if im getting wound up, i check myself, and let it go, and maybe revisit it (maybe not) when both parties have cooled off.

using this as a guide, what stage would you say your relationship is in: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Yes, once removed, it’s definitely not intuitive. I try to remember not to JADE and I do good for awhile, and I know he’s pushing my buttons to get a rise. With the incessant talking after awhile it works. It takes a lot of self control and discipline.

I would say we’re between the 3rd and 4th stage. Sadly... .

[starlet564]

Hey... a bit late to the discussion.  I'm generally not a fan of gaslighting as a term and my understand is bpdfamily kinda frowns on it, although I'm not exactly sure why.

Here is my reasoning/understanding.

To me gaslighting is "intentional".  So someone thoughtfully creates a reality and pushes it onto another person.

Now... think about pwBPD.  How much stuff do they "intentionally" do in their life... vice reactively do.

I get it... .it "seems" to us as they are pushing this view or that reality or "re-writing" things (and they are).  The reason they are is their "feelings" vice a plot to destroy your life and/or the world.

The effect on you can be the same, yet I believe it is important to understand the "source".

Yes that makes sense, FF. I’ve never thought or felt it was malicious or intentional, but the effects and frustrations are still the same. Now that I’m beginning to understand pwBPD I can sympathize more. It’s just overwhelming.