Boundary Setting and Fear

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello everyone!

For those of you who have been replying to my posts for some time know my story.  For those of you who do not, simply put my son is in a relationship with an uBPD.  They were at one time engaged, but not sure that is still the case.  No talk of it, no wedding plans being made, etc.  They have been together for 4-1/2 years.  My son is pretty much being totally taken advantage of and we witness it all and feel bad for him, but realize he is a 28-year-old man who must make his own choices, even bad ones, and we have to know when to intervene and when not to.  We have a biological grandson (GS2) 2 years old we watch twice a week and a (GD4) granddaughter who is 4 years old, not biological but we love her just the same.

My husband and I have been setting boundaries with them lately and it actually feels good, but just wondering if anyone else has had to set boundaries with a pwBPD and their loved one in their life and it also made you feel fearful that you will get contact cut off from them? 

I simply hate this fear that keeps dragging along with making healthy choices for ourselves. 

Just an FYI, my husband and I planned a 3-week getaway later in the year and told my son we would not be able to come back and forth to babysit our GS2 during that time, that we needed some time away for ourselves.

There is a tablet that the kids use all the time for playing games, watching videos, etc., but which also contains, what I consider pornographic material of their mother in various poses.  I know what art is and the manner in which a nude photo can be taken and show beauty.  I trust myself enough to know these are not done artistically.  I feel it is wrong for our GS2 and GD4 (especially her) to view these photos of their mom.  Our boundary was, on the days that we come to babysit GS2, please have the tablet put away in a safe place.  We do not allow GS2 to get on this when we are here. 

We are trying to do and say things only when lines are really crossed and effect us, not just randomly saying I don't want this, I don't want that, etc... .The tablet was a very necessary thing we felt as well as our taking some time away as this is a very stressful situation for us.

Is feeling fear when setting healthy boundaries for yourself normal?   

Any replies are welcome!

Angie59

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

For those of you who have been replying to my posts for some time know my story.  For those of you who do not, simply put my son is in a relationship with an uBPD.  They were at one time engaged, but not sure that is still the case.  No talk of it, no wedding plans being made, etc.  They have been together for 4-1/2 years.  My son is pretty much being totally taken advantage of and we witness it all and feel bad for him, but realize he is a 28-year-old man who must make his own choices, even bad ones, and we have to know when to intervene and when not to.  We have a biological grandson (GS2) 2 years old we watch twice a week and a (GD4) granddaughter who is 4 years old, not biological but we love her just the same.

My husband and I have been setting boundaries with them lately and it actually feels good, but just wondering if anyone else has had to set boundaries with a pwBPD and their loved one in their life and it also made you feel fearful that you will get contact cut off from them? 

I simply hate this fear that keeps dragging along with making healthy choices for ourselves. 

Just an FYI, my husband and I planned a 3-week getaway later in the year and told my son we would not be able to come back and forth to babysit our GS2 during that time, that we needed some time away for ourselves.

There is a tablet that the kids use all the time for playing games, watching videos, etc., but which also contains, what I consider pornographic material of their mother in various poses.  I know what art is and the manner in which a nude photo can be taken and show beauty.  I trust myself enough to know these are not done artistically.  I feel it is wrong for our GS2 and GD4 (especially her) to view these photos of their mom.  Our boundary was, on the days that we come to babysit GS2, please have the tablet put away in a safe place.  We do not allow GS2 to get on this when we are here. 

We are trying to do and say things only when lines are really crossed and effect us, not just randomly saying I don't want this, I don't want that, etc... .The tablet was a very necessary thing we felt as well as our taking some time away as this is a very stressful situation for us.

Is feeling fear when setting healthy boundaries for yourself normal?   

Any replies are welcome!

Angie59

[Learning2Thrive]

  Angie!

My husband and I have been setting boundaries with them lately and it actually feels good, but just wondering if anyone else has had to set boundaries with a pwBPD and their loved one in their life and it also made you feel fearful that you will get contact cut off from them? 

Yes, I have several of these relationships and situations in my life. Each one causes anxiety in different ways. I will say—in my experience— that if pwBPD knows your fear IT WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU.

How did your son and his fiancée respond when you told him/them about your trip? How did they respond regarding the boundary about the tablet?

In my case, when I set a boundary and the pwBPD responds I use their response as a guide for how to proceed. I constantly refer back to TOOLS (link in green bar at top) and adjust as necessary.

I’m so glad to see you posting again and I am so happy you and your hubby are moving forward to take your RV Trip. We need to live our lives joyfully.

  L2T

[Angie59]

Hello Learning2Thrive!

I always tell/ask various things with only my son.  His uBPD girlfriend, due to the hours she works, leaves us little or no contact with her when we are over there babysitting.  Thank God!

So, I told my son about wanting the tablet put up and out of sight when we were there.  He simply said, "Okay."  Thursday when we were there it was no where around.  Friday he noticed it in GD4's/GS2's bedroom and picked it up and went into his bedroom with it to store somewhere.  I would say he is doing okay with the boundary. 

We also made the boundary of not coming back and forth each week from where we are going for our 3-week get-away, as we did do this last year, and we went a lot more last year than we are going this year.  In fact this will be the first and last time for the season that we are going this year.  He simply said, "Oh, okay, I can understand that."  So that seemed to go well too. 

His uBPd came in Friday after work and our son wasn't there yet.  We have not seen nor talked to each other for quite awhile - nothing after the apology from the blow-up back in May was made. I decided to take the high rode and make casual conversation.  She would only answer the question, short answers and very clipped.  I left there feeling okay about myself - at least I tried.  Not quite sure I will continue to do this though. 

I know in order for us to keep our own sanity, our marriage intact and our own self-respect we will have to continue to make boundaries as time goes along.  For instance, they have Thanksgiving dinner at her grandma's house  with her parents along too on Thanksgiving day.  Okay, I thought, it's just a day on the calendar and our son started inviting us over the day after for our Thanksgiving time with them.  Last year was a disaster.  She was very bothered by having to cook us a meal and just tried getting through it the best she could.  A dish she makes is supposed to have Ritz crackers crushed finely on top and she literally took her hand smashed whatever she could and put them on top.  Her dad even asked her what happened to it!

Very, very uncomfortable feeling for us.

Then comes their version of Christmas which is celebration of Solstice.  We had never heard of it before but because GD4 is with her Dad on Christmas Eve and day, that is when they open GD4's gifts and everyone else's.  So my husband and I went this past time - I happened to have laryngitis that night and almost didn't go but didn't want to miss GD4 opening gifts.  Boy, do I wish we had stayed home.  No one talked to us at all, as though we weren't even there.  I felt like one of the gifts I gave her was made fun of, as if we were not even sitting there, and then I proceeded to watch GD4 open 5 gifts to GS2's one - literally.  It's almost as though they make it to where you would not want to be there!

These are two very scary boundaries to make - no day after Thanksgiving for us, but will invite them to our house for a fish-fry or something instead.  Solstice is a no - only thing I can say is I am uncomfortable, the uBPD girlfriend only came by on Christmas Day to our house the very first year she was around and has not come by with our son, and now grandson ever again.  I feel like our day of celebration (Christmas Day) is not being respected, why would we have to respect the Solstice? 

Just way too much uncomfortableness, but yet that fear that this will draw our son (thus grandson) away from us.  My older son and husband agree with all of this, so I know it isn't just me. 

Sorry to get so wordy!

Angie59 

[Learning2Thrive]

These are two very scary boundaries to make - no day after Thanksgiving for us, but will invite them to our house for a fish-fry or something instead.  Solstice is a no - only thing I can say is I am uncomfortable, the uBPD girlfriend only came by on Christmas Day to our house the very first year she was around and has not come by with our son, and now grandson ever again.  I feel like our day of celebration (Christmas Day) is not being respected, why would we have to respect the Solstice?

What if you made both of these events different, NEW family traditions celebrated at a neutral location? For example, meet up to have a meal at a favorite restaurant or family walk through local mall or town square or other festive decorated area to look at lights and share hot chocolate or other treats. Or a visit to a children’s museum or something along those lines?  That way your son and his fiancée can’t complain about being uncomfortable in your home and you won’t have to be uncomfortable in theirs.

Sometimes we can avoid conflict by changing the situation altogether. What if you could think about it in terms of maintaining your boundaries while still maintaining contact, without anyone feeling like they are being forced to endure something they’d rather not.

What kind of activity could you all do in a neutral place that would be meaningful to all of you?

  L2T

[Notwendy]

When we begin to use boundaries, it is scary because of the potential reaction. These are difficult choices to make but I think we make them when the emotional or physical price of not having boundaries is so high, we choose them despite the consequences. This is also a factor in romantic relationships- when one partner changes the dynamics, it does risk the relationship. The other partner may not like it. The person faces the fear that the relationship might end. I think this is one reason these relationships are difficult to make changes in.

Your fear is real and yes, it is possible they may cut contact, but what is the alternative to not having boundaries? You and your H feel resentful and exhausted accommodating them, and you aren't happy the way things are. They aren't motivated to change- they get what they want: free accommodating babysitters. Why would they change. The only way for things to change is for you and your H to start having boundaries. This leaves them the choice to either respect your boundaries and maintain the relationship or not. It's a risk, but all change has risk.

I think the boundaries on the vacation are good. They are "you" centered - they come from a place of self care- "we are taking this trip for us".  The Tablet and the holiday ones are a bit tricky to navigate because they come with a message of disapproval and resentment. Boundaries reflect our values and although not looking at nude pictures or changing how you celebrate Christmas are your values, the disapproval ( I won't look at those pictures- your wife is a slut) and the resentment ( you won't celebrate my Christmas so I won't celebrate your Solstice, Solstice is wrong) messages still come through. This will alienate them.

I like L2T's idea of developing neutral family traditions that include them. Maybe the GF feels as uncomfortable with your Christmas as you do her Solstice. The holidays can also get hectic, so maybe a family tradition between Christmas and New Years- like the fish fry, or a pancake brunch, or anything else that appeals to you can be a new ritual.

Kids don't have to have a tablet to play on. When you come to babysit, rather than your son having to hide things from you, you can also take the tablet and put it out of reach of the kids. You can have your own special games and books to play with your GS. If you can afford a tablet and put your own kids games on it, it can be Grandma and Grampa's special tablet that you use when you babysit. Your boundary is "I don't want to see the pictures" but it isn't your son's boundary. You can take care of this one yourself without discussing the tablet with your son. Just put it away and do something else with the kids when you are there. This honors your boundary without being critical of your son and his GF.

[zachira]

Yes, it is normal to feel fear when setting healthy boundaries, especially when you do not know how the person is going to respond (especially if they have responded badly in the past), and their response could seriously impair the relationship you have with people that are very important to you, like your grandchildren. I admire your courage in being there for your grandchildren, and know you are making a big difference in their lives. I grew up with a mother with BPD, and would not be the person that I am today without the love and kindness of my aunts and uncles, and other people. Sometimes just five minutes of kind caring attention from a stranger made a big difference for me, and I still remember fondly those that showed me that I did indeed matter. Take care and keep us posted on how you are doing.

[Angie59]

Hello everyone and thank you for your replies!

I really like the idea of getting a new holiday tradition going as well, but unfortunately I do so not see that working.  I guess the best way to describe what we are seeing and feeling from our son's uBPD girlfriend is not wanting to be around us (unless her own parents are there), as well as not really wanting to converse with us when it is just her and us.  I tried this the other day when she came home from work early and I think I already wrote that her answers were very short, clipped and clear that she did not want to engage in talking with us.  She does not even come to our home. 

Now it is perfectly fine for our son and both children to come to our home without her - in fact, she has asked him twice to do just that.  I know you may call it all an assumption on my part, but I do not believe she cares enough about us to say, hey bring the kids over to see your mom and dad, as a nice gesture thinking of us.

No, unfortunately this is so she can have the house to herself and no kids to hassle her. 

I have taken the approach of "detaching with love," and focus on being there when babysitting our GS2, enjoy the days with him, and also enjoy what little I see of GS4 since she is in Pre-K now and only has a short time in the a.m. before she has to leave.

Many things are voiced out loud so it seems sometimes that there is no escape from it.  Our GD4 granddaughter said to me, just in the midst of other conversation we were having, "hey do you know what my mommy did?  She was supposed to come by my school and give me a hug and she never came and then she was supposed to do it today and she never came again, so that was two times (putting up 2 fingers) that she didn't do it! 

At this point, my heart is breaking for her.  In the background, I hear my son telling her the reasons why she didn't come by, yadda yadda yadda - let's just face it son - she is an absent parent that is taking its toll on GD4 especially and will, if not already on GS2.  It is as plain as the nose on your face!

Even my son gets in a dig now and then - tells me, we'll call him George, the guy that his supposed fiance went to the dominican Republic with, and also took scantily dressed photos in his bedroom, etc., tells me that "see that big hutch is out of here - George came over and helped me move it." 

My response, "Well that's cool.  It sure makes it more roomy in here." 

Yes, when I enter his home each Thursday and Friday, I am definitely living in the Land of Oz, and I really want to get back to Kansas so badly!  I am going week to week doing this and trying to hang on to my own sanity for the sake of my previous GS2.  I love him more than llfe itself and he needs lots of love, kisses and praise.  Someone needs to make him feel loved and worthy, and I'm trying my best to do that for him!  I guess things would have to get really bad before I gave it up - however, every week there is always something new and more escalation.  God, help me!

[Notwendy]

I think it is fine for your son to take the kids to see you without her if she doesn't want to go. I would extend the invitation to her- and let her decide to go or not.  While you may be taking this personally, it really is her issue and also her choice.

My BPD mother disliked my father's family. I suppose they invited her,  but she didn't want to go and they were just as happy that she declined. After my father died, we went to a family reunion on their side of the family. They didn't invite her this time. If they invited my father, they always included her, but this had changed. When she found out about it, she was furious that she was not invited. I thought it was odd, since there were decades of not liking each other between them, but even so, she was offended that they didn't extend the invitation.

Take the high road and invite the GF, if she turns you down, that could be a nice opportunity to spend time with your son on his own.

[Angie59]

I'm all in with that NotWendy!  In fact, if there is an invitation to our house for something or to go somewhere as a family, my son, kids and his uBPD girlfriend are always included.  I look at them like a package deal.  I have never excluded her from anything and don't plan to.  I would place every penny I had at this point though, if she stays true to her past, that she would not go, and I am actually relieved when that occurs.

Way, way too much tension.  At first I was down on myself, telling myself that everyone thinks differently, everyone's world is not my world that they live in, quit being so judgmental, etc... .  This situation has gone far beyond this and I am now respecting myself and listening to what my heart and soul is saying. 

My values, my beliefs, my moral compass, etc., is very clear to me and are what makes me - me.  I love myself because I know that what I am feeling is not wrong; it simply goes against my own values and morals and it is a deep-seated feeling that I have whenever I am around my son's uBPD, and her parents.  It's that feeling you get where you feel I don't belong around this; I can't relate to any of this; and I am feeling very disturbed and uncomfortable inside.  I think it is time to listen to what my inner self is saying and respect it. 

I went on social media last night checking to see if a friend of mine had answered yet about how her son was doing who was in a serious car crash.  I saw a post made by my son's girlfriend's father who is into doing leather crafts.  He stated, these are some of my best work, with about 8 different pictures, wallets, belts, various objects, but among the pictures there is one of his daughter (my son's uBPD girlfriend) laying on her back with some sort of mask on which covered her nose on down to her chin, what appeared to be a dog collar, spiked, around her neck, with a chain hanging from it.  She has a scared pleading look on her face.  Wwwwwhhhhaaattt?

I am now feeling so embarrassed by family members who know her, have met her and know this is my son's choice of a partner!  I know we have had a lot to deal with, with my son's girlfriend alone, but lately we have seen strange things such as this with her dad and her mom, well I don't know.  They all sort of seem like they have ice running through their veins.  I have not spoken to either her mom or dad in 3 months, which is unusual.

Okay, didn't mean to write a book about it.  The behavior is so strange to me and quite honestly, it makes me feel disgust inside.  You're really posting this picture to social media for everyone to see?  What about when you originally saw this?  No questions, no reprimands, no concerns, etc... .  well, this is the man who told my husband and I that going on a trip with her male "friend" was a good thing for her to do, so why would I expect anything different?  It seems just when you think you have heard and seen it all - she tops it the next day!

I need to stay away from all three of them while hoping I can keep a good connection with my son and grandkids.  It seems like a scary thing right now, but I just can't do this anymore.

Thanks for listening!

[zachira]

"My values, my beliefs, my moral compass, etc., is very clear to me and are what makes me - me.  I love myself because I know that what I am feeling is not wrong; it simply goes against my own values and morals and it is a deep-seated feeling that I have whenever I am around my son's uBPD, and her parents.  It's that feeling you get where you feel I don't belong around this; I can't relate to any of this; and I am feeling very disturbed and uncomfortable inside. I think it is time to listen to what my inner self is saying and respect it."
Angie,
You have really hit the nail on the head with this statement. Healing is about listening to how we feel inside and honoring our feelings and values. So many times, we just need to slow down, notice how we are feeling and thinking, and do what feels right. This is so painful when this involves keeping our distance from one of our children who are the people we love more than anything else in the world. You are taking the steps to give your family the best possibility of repairing your relationship with your son. You are respecting his boundaries and recognizing he is the one who will have to take the initiative because you have truly done all you can.

[Harri]

It is good to see you spending more time on you and less time on the behaviors of your sons finacee and her family.

You can't control or change them only you. 

I think most people seeing the facebook stuff would realize you are not responsible or even really associated with such pictures.  Have you changed your setting though so that friends can't see friends posts?  It has been years since I used facebook so I am not sure of what the options are anymore but there used to be a way to keep others from seeing posts shared by your friends (unless they are friends with your sons finacee or her family... .in which case they can just unfriend or block)

Have you been able to practice Mindfulness?  How's that going?

[Angie59]

Hello Zachira and Harri!

I really appreciate your comments.  It made me feel stronger just reading them.  I am starting to see things so much clearer now and it is scary to think that making these boundaries may cause a disconnect between my son and our family; however, it needs to be done.

I came across a quote about boundaries somewhere (my memory fails me where it was), but it goes like this:  "The only people that get upset about you setting boundaries are the ones benefiting from you having none." 

Thanks again for your kind words and support!
Angie

[Notwendy]

 Yes, it is embarrassing but the person this could possibly embarrass is your son. You didn't choose her, he did. I don't think anyone judges you for it. I am glad you are spending more time taking care of you!

[Learning2Thrive]

Hi Angie! I really admire all the work you’ve put in an progress you’ve made. I know it’s not easy, but it really is worth it.

I really like the idea of getting a new holiday tradition going as well, but unfortunately I do so not see that working.

I understand what your saying. Even if you started the new tradition, your son’s fiancee is not likely to show up.

I still encourage you to consider doing it. Why? Because really, the goal is not to get her to show up or to change who she is, right? The goal is to create a joyful celebration/situation that takes tension out of the equation... .and... .without you saying a word (or potentially being caught up in any drama) simply focuses on the joy of the season and your love for your family.

If she chooses not to go but wants your son and the kids to go, you get to have that wonderful time with the kids and your son and he will know his fiancée is the one who chose not to participate. Maybe he’s ok with that and that’s ok, because that’s his side of the road.

But for your family holiday celebration, if you set the tone and create a neutral tradition, everyone is offered the opportunity to celebrate in a neutral space while remaining true to their own beleifs and values.

What do you think?

  L2T

[Angie59]

Hello Learning2Thrive!

What do I think?  Well, I think you have great ideas for one.  I'm going to speak from the heart here and please let me know if I am seeing this somewhat skewed, for lack of a better word.

I know that if I invite my son, kids and uBPD girlfriend over, say the day after Thanksgiving, for a fish fry at our home, in order for her to even have a chance at coming over is to invite her parents.  She seems like having time with my son's family (only my husband, myself and his older brother) is so uncomfortable or so "something" to her, that she must have her parents present.  This has happened on many occasions. 

Fact:  I don't want to be around any of them. 

Now, I know that will have its repercussions.  I am just to the point that they must have some issues with me (her parents) as we have not spoken at all for 3 months now, after the blowup I had with their daughter. 

In order for me to pull off a new holiday tradition and include all of them means I would have to be "fake" and that is something I do not do well. 

On the other hand, I do not want a disconnect from my son and grandkids.  So I guess I'm wanting my cake and eat it too?

The reason I am picking Thanksgiving as an example is that from the time he met his uBPD girlfriend, they always went to her grandma and grandpa's house for their turkey dinner on Thanksgiving day.  Then they invited us over the day after and another turkey dinner was made for us.  Of course, I wanted to be with them on Thanksgiving day, but I made up my mind that it was just another day on the calendar and we are still being included in the holiday, even if it is the day after.

Last year, we were made to feel so uncomfortable.  The feeling of not wanting to cook a dinner for us by the uBPD girlfriend was palpable.  She asked my son what time it was and he said, almost 5:00 p.m. and she slammed her hand on the table, got up and said, "Well then I guess it's time for me to get up and cook!"  It wasn't just me - my husband looked at me and then my son and we all looked at each other, feeling like we were such a bother to her.  She no more wanted to cook that meal than the man in the moon!  She already had her Turkey Day.   One of dishes she made was to be topped with Ritz crackers finely crushed.  Her dad even asked what was wrong with the dish - the Ritz crackers were almost in halves.  It seemed obvious she just took them in her hand and crush them and put them on there. 

Not a warm and fuzzy feeling at all. 

They also celebrate Solstice instead of Christmas Day.  The very first year she was with my son, she came along and said, You guys go ahead and do your thing in here and I'll start making everyone breakfast.  I thought that was the sweetest thing ever!  She was still respecting our day of celebration, while doing something nice for us in the other room.  I really loved that she did that.

After that, no more Christmas day celebrations had her present. 

It's disrespect, obvious feelings of dislike, feeling the the turd in the punch bowl so to speak, and feeling extremely uncomfortable all the time. 

Okay, I always seem to be ranting and I apologize for that!  I guess it's just all these hurtful pent up emotions I have. 

Angie

[Harri]

Hi Angie.

Let's get the focus back on you.  I am going to quote what L2T said:

I understand what your saying. Even if you started the new tradition, your son’s fiancee is not likely to show up.

I still encourage you to consider doing it. Why? Because really, the goal is not to get her to show up or to change who she is, right? The goal is to create a joyful celebration/situation that takes tension out of the equation... .and... .without you saying a word (or potentially being caught up in any drama) simply focuses on the joy of the season and your love for your family.

If she chooses not to go but wants your son and the kids to go, you get to have that wonderful time with the kids and your son and he will know his fiancée is the one who chose not to participate. Maybe he’s ok with that and that’s ok, because that’s his side of the road.

Can you think about what L2T said without bringing your son's finacee in?

I know it is hard.  but yes, I am going to push you a bit on this.  Focus on you and accepting that your sons finacee gets to do what is right for her and you get to do what is right for you.

[Learning2Thrive]

Angie, for what it’s worth, I would NOT invite your son’s fiancée’s parents. That would not be true to your values and would cause you undue stress. Invite your son and HIS family to the most neutral event you can comeup with. Then enjoy the event. Do not overthink it.

As I said, this is about creating a joyful celebration for your family, not trying to change anyone else. That’s why it’s crucial for the event to be as neutral as possible.

  L2T

[Angie59]

Hello everyone and thank you for your replies.

I am understanding all of what you had to say.  I especially understand the part that you brought up Harri about my son's uBPD girlfriend having the right to do what is right for her and me doing right is right for me.  That makes sense. 

Maybe I'm back to the same ole song here, but for instance with Christmas.  We have attended each and every "Solstice" she has had, but she does not show up for Christmas Day, which is our day of celebration.  Do you think it would be the right thing to do to not include her for our Christmas Day or just invite and let it be that she doesn't show up.

Sometimes, I feel like just telling her how I feel, but I know that for a person with BPD that is probably not a good idea.  I'm wondering if they are even aware of the lies, manipulation, hurtful things that are done, etc... .

Just wondering.

[Notwendy]

So you attend Solstice and she doesn't attend Christmas. It doesn't have to be even- and looking at this in this manner will only bring resentment.

Is it the religious aspect that bothers you? Consider- what if your son married someone of a different religion- and they had their religious ceremonies. Would you not go to them and why? Have you ever attended a wedding, or a funeral, or a holiday celebration for/with someone of a different religion?

The main reason to attend a ceremony or holiday celebration with someone that is different from your own is not to pray or observe a different religion that you don't believe in -- it is to be together as a family or a group of friends.

When you attend Solstice- do you have to do anything that would negate your religion?  If there is a ceremony or prayer you don't want to say then don't say it but you can still be there with the family. If a non Catholic attends a Catholic wedding or funeral, and there is communion, they do not participate. They do sit quietly in their seats and allow others to do so.

This situation isn't much different from an interfaith marriage. The parents in this situation may not approve of it, but the reality is that the couple is a family and have chosen to include their parents if they invite them. The parents can make a choice but they are likely to be excluded from family celebrations if they refuse to at least be there.

An invitation to Solstice is an invitation to be part of their family celebration. You can join them or not. I also think you should invite them to Christmas if it is your custom to extend an invitation to your children and their spouses. Excluding them or her on Christmas would alienate her even more from attending holidays at your home.

IMHO Angie, this is a resentment on your part that can only cause a rift in your family.

[Harri]

Hi Angie.

Actually my point was that you changed your focus from you back to your sons finacee.  Part of keeping the focus on you is accepting that she has a right to act and respond as she chooses.  You fluctuate back and forth with being okay with that.  That is okay and the fluctuation is a normal part of moving through this.  It is all part of a process.  

The next step that you have been on the verge of taking, ever so tentatively is trying to change your way of organizing your thoughts about the holidays.  Rather than putting your sons fiancee at the forefront in terms of thinking about the futility in starting something new because she won't show or whatever, focus on creating something new that is good for you, that celebrates the holidays in a way that honors your needs and beliefs while accepting that you may need to alter your definition of family.

That is what I mean by keeping the focus on you.

So read this again and think about it in terms of how it is possible for you to make the necessary changes:
L2T said: I understand what your saying. Even if you started the new tradition, your son’s fiancee is not likely to show up.

I still encourage you to consider doing it. Why? Because really, the goal is not to get her to show up or to change who she is, right? The goal is to create a joyful celebration/situation that takes tension out of the equation... .and... .without you saying a word (or potentially being caught up in any drama) simply focuses on the joy of the season and your love for your family.

If she chooses not to go but wants your son and the kids to go, you get to have that wonderful time with the kids and your son and he will know his fiancée is the one who chose not to participate. Maybe he’s ok with that and that’s ok, because that’s his side of the road.

It does not have to be a big change Angie.  At one point, due to significant illness I had to move back into the house I grew up in.  The very house where I was abused and mentally tortured and blackmailed for decades.  My mother was dead but my father was there.  The man who enabled my disordered mother and who mostly ignored what was being done to my brother and me.  I had not choice.  I could either allow myself to be tortured by memories of what happened and how I was stuck in the same place again or I could change things up just enough to make it work for me.  I chose the latter.  

Change things up Angie.  I know what it is like to reach the edge of the next step, or the edge of deeper change and to dip your toe in and then run away squealing.  All we are saying here is to dip your other toes in too and wiggle them around a bit and change things up!    

Changing means challenging your thought patterns while changing your behaviors.  Your emotions/feelings will follow.  Get off the "this is crazy, this is different from what we do, this is so disordered, this is embarrassing, I dislike her, I hate what she has done, this is ____ " thing that you have been doing and change it up.  What you have been doing is not working and is only causing more harm.  Say to yourself, yes, I believe all that but I am going to focus on what is good for me and what honors my values and beliefs.

Stick your toes in and wiggle them around Angie.

[Angie59]

Thank you NotWendy and Harri for your replies; as always greatly appreciated.

To answer some of your questions NotWendy, I do respect others' beliefs and traditions that they have made.  I happen to be a Christian but I have friends who are Jewish, various Christian religions (protestant) and some who really just believe in a "higher power" and that works for them, which is great! 

Solstice is a day my son's uBPD girlfriend made up which is close to Christmas Day.  No prayers, honoring nothing or no one, no relgious affiliation to it at all.  From her dad's mouth, "this is just something she made up."  The reason it was made up is because her dad has GD4 on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day as he is a Christian and she is not, so the days meant more to him.  (Court-ordered in visitation agreement).  So she still wants to open gifts, so it is really just a day for everyone to be able to open gifts, nothing more.  I understand, however, this will be the only time she can give her gifts to her daughter and now our grandson.   

As I said, this is no religious affiliation to it at all - and if there was I would certainly respect it.  So there is that word again - respect.  She has chosen this day to celebrate with family opening gifts.  So we attended in the past and respected that.  Christmas Day for us is not respected by her.  I know this may seem petty and even "wrong" but I'm tired of doing things that we do not really want to do because of the tension and then when it is our turn to do something, be ignored. 

Harri, thank you for your words of wisdom as always.  I do see what you are saying and I will read and reread your post.  Things are just really hard right now because I can see what she is doing to my son and those precious children and it is enough to make me cry every day if I don't keep things in check. 

It just really gets old after awhile, you know?  I'm sure you do and I commend you on handling the situation of having to move back to your original home you grew up in the way you did. 

I'm just plain old tired, I guess.

[Notwendy]

I can understand how you feel attending her Solstice, as you really don't like her, or approve of her, and while I don't blame you for that- as I wouldn't be comfortable around the behaviors you described- the issue is that she is attached to your son, and how to reconcile that.

I agree with Harri on keeping the focus on you - your feelings and your steps to take care of yourself. When looking at her- it mainly builds resentment. If her Solstice is a day of presents, then you don't have to attend it. if it is your family custom to all get together at Christmas in your home, I think you should still extend the invitation to Christmas and other celebrations at your home, and let her decide to attend or not.

I know you care about your son and GS, but I think the more you can focus on your feelings and your needs and not her behavior, the less resentment you will feel. I know it just baffles you that your son chose her, but he did. At this point he may be trying to protect and care for his son the best he can and puts up with her to keep the conflict in his home to a minimum. For you, this may mean something similar- take care of yourself the best you can, keep resentment to a minimum.

[Harri]

Harri, thank you for your words of wisdom as always.  I do see what you are saying and I will read and reread your post.  Things are just really hard right now because I can see what she is doing to my son and those precious children and it is enough to make me cry every day if I don't keep things in check.

When you feel like this it is the very time you need to push yourself a bit.  If you wait until you are ready or feeling better about the situation you are going to be waiting a very long time Angie.  Your feelings follow your actions so waiting until your feelings change to take action or to try something new is not going to work.

Do you want to get to a better place about this?  Push yourself a bit.   

[Notwendy]

Angie, since you do follow a religion, I think you can identify with the 12 steps idea of a "higher power". One of the things they teach is that, we have a connection to a higher power and so does every body. However we are not the Higher Power - we do not run the universe and we are not someone else's HP. As much as you want to help your GS and protect him from his mother, there is only so much you can do. You did not pick his parents and one can not know the grand plan of why these parents were destined to have this child.

I wish I could tell you he's going to be OK,  but I don't know the future. I can tell you that, despite the fact that having a BPD parent was tough, many of us here are OK. We may have some issues to deal with but we work no them.

It was after my father passed away that his remaining relatives felt able to speak to me about how they felt about my mother. They were wise to not triangulate with us  or speak to us as kids,  but I was an adult by then and my mother at the time had basically disowned me. In addition, I wanted to know.

They said they wished they could have done more for us kids, but they couldn't. What they didn't realize was just how much of an impact on us they made with the time they gave us. We knew we were loved and we loved them. Now, my kids are close to my cousins on that side. To them, they didn't think they did enough, but to us, we are so grateful.

There were difficulties growing up but there were also great gifts. Most parents are not all good or all bad. Your son and his GF are your GS's parents- and they are responsible for him and you have no idea how he will turn out. I don't behave like my mother. I also learned some valuable lessons from growing up with her.

Of course intervene if there is frank abuse, but risque pictures and Solstice are not abuse. Letting go of how you believe they should raise your GS could help you let go of your resentment. Do what you can but also trust that you are not in control of this, God is. 

[Learning2Thrive]

Solstice is a day my son's uBPD girlfriend made up which is close to Christmas Day.  No prayers, honoring nothing or no one, no relgious affiliation to it at all.  From her dad's mouth, "this is just something she made up."  The reason it was made up is because her dad has GD4 on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day as he is a Christian and she is not, so the days meant more to him.  (Court-ordered in visitation agreement).  So she still wants to open gifts, so it is really just a day for everyone to be able to open gifts, nothing more.  I understand, however, this will be the only time she can give her gifts to her daughter and now our grandson.  

As I said, this is no religious affiliation to it at all - and if there was I would certainly respect it.  So there is that word again - respect.  She has chosen this day to celebrate with family opening gifts

Okay, there’s a lot to unpack here.

Just because she does not offer prayers or ceremony during the celebration/package opening does not mean Solstice is made up. Frankly, I know plenty of self proclaimed Christians who open packages on Christmas morning with no ceremony or prayers.

https://www.circlesanctuary.org/index.php/celebrating-the-seasons/celebrating-winter-solstice

Further, just because her father said she made it up doesn’t necessarily mean his understanding or perception is accurate. Even further, no matter what the reason is that she decided to claim Solstice as her holiday with HER family it should be respected. You can lovingly and respectfully decline to attend and that is entirely appropriate.

So we attended in the past and respected that.  Christmas Day for us is not respected by her.  I know this may seem petty and even "wrong" but I'm tired of doing things that we do not really want to do because of the tension and then when it is our turn to do something, be ignored.  

Yes, you have established that she felt every bit as uncomfortable at your celebration as you did at hers. There is nothing wrong with lovingly and respectfully deciding to not attend celebrations that make you(or her) feel uncomfortable. That is practicing good self care and staying true to your values.

Harri, thank you for your words of wisdom as always.  I do see what you are saying and I will read and reread your post.  Things are just really hard right now because I can see what she is doing to my son and those precious children and it is enough to make me cry every day if I don't keep things in check.  

It just really gets old after awhile, you know?

This is your resentment talking. You still want her to change so things fit your vision for your son and grandchildren. You are choosing to focus on her behaviors and you are allowing it to affect you.

This is entirely within your control, Angie. You’ve already discovered that you feel better when you simpy focus on you and doing what’s best for you and within your values. You do not need to justify making healthy choices for yourself by ruminating over and constantly complaining about her lifestyle/behavior which your son apparently supports. She is not likely to change and he has chosen to be with her (at least for now).

I'm just plain old tired, I guess.

Yes, I can empathize with this. But I wouldn’t be doing you any favors by continuously agreeing and sympathizing with your misery because that will only make you feel worse and it will change nothing.

Harri is right, pushing yourself a little bit when you are tired will help you grow and that can bring real and positive change for you.

You can do this, Angie.  

  L2T

[Harri]

L2T: 

You do not need to justify making healthy choices for yourself by ruminating over and constantly complaining about her lifestyle/behavior which your son apparently supports.

I really like this point about how ruminating is a way to justify to ourselves that it is okay to self care, say no, stop, whatever.   

[Learning2Thrive]

L2T: 
I really like this point about how ruminating is a way to justify to ourselves that it is okay to self care, say no, stop, whatever.   

Thanks, Harri. This is something I struggled with all my life and recently had some breakthrough moments. It ties directly in to self esteem.

I keep repeating to myself daily, I am WORTHY of making healthy choices for myself. I do not have to justify it. I don’t need to argue for it. I don’t need to defend it. I don’t have to explain it. I am ENTITLED to treat myself with respect, kindness, compassion and forgiveness in the same way I diligently work to extend it to others.

It was like a BOOM in my brain. L2T ... .wake up! Stop JADEing yourself out of your own life and happiness.  Love yourself enough to focus on your own needs and make healthy choices for you. Because you are teaching people how to treat you based on how they observe you treating yourself.

Sending you lots of love, Angie. I know you can do this. I am here cheering  you on. 

  L2T