How I handle conflict... sometimes

[Harri]

_{This thread was split from Woolspinner's thread here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327401.0;all}

I've been thinking about how I put on a facade that everything is okay after a conflict.  I learned it from interacting with my mother but I also do it out of a sense of twisted pride.  Too many times if I remained upset I was told I was being a drama queen or would hear "there's my little actress coming out to play".  So I will pretend I am just fine and everything is cool but it isn't cool, or I should say I am not cool.  This leads to more problems because then--->

Like your husband, I am a 'late processor'.  So by the time I figure out what has happened, a few days or even weeks may pass (yes really) and then I want to talk about 'it'.  I don't sit around plotting what I want to say though, I just tuck whatever 'it' is away in the back of my mind and eventually 'it' makes it's way back to the foreground and I can then process.  But then, if I bring it up I then have to fight through the emotional memories of being called a drama queen and an actress.    (If you are going to call me that then I want my Oscar dammit)

Wools, does that happen to you?  Anyone?  

[Turkish]

Too many times if I remained upset I was told I was being a drama queen or would hear "there's my little actress coming out to play"

Wow. Just when I've thought I've heard it all here... .  that's unbelievably cruel,  like telling you that you're not a real person.

[Harri]

Thank you for that Turkish.  I never thought of it as cruel.  But I can see it now and I remember how she would mock me and the contempt in her voice.  She would laugh.    

[CollectedChaos]

Hi Harri!  Thanks for starting this thread.  Wool's thread really got me thinking about this over the last day or so. 

I can definitely relate.  Whenever I showed negative emotion growing up I was always told I was being a drama queen, being dramatic, over-emotional, that I was fragile, and once I hit puberty it became all about hormones.  My parents loved to ask me if I was on my period whenever I was upset about something, and if I said no then it would just be brushed off as PMS and I "must be starting it soon."  So I just stopped showing them, and like you would put on the "everything is cool" face even if I was a mess inside... .and I think eventually, I stopped being able to realize when I was actually a mess.  It wasn't until the last several years that I realize I even do this.  Like I said in the other thread, during MC my H said how frustrating it was that I would seem totally fine after an argument... .and of course, I was far from being actually fine, but I put on that mask like I had been trained to do! 

I also think I am a late processor.  Eventually those emotions will come bubbling back up to the surface, as they always do, and by then so much time has passed that I automatically assume whoever I speak to about it will think I am being dramatic.  So it's as though I put myself into a situation (avoiding a feeling until much later) to affirm my suspicions about people thinking I am dramatic.  I'm essentially creating a scenario to confirm my assumptions.  I'm happy to be able to see this pattern now, but it's a hard one to break. 

[Learning2Thrive]

This feels oh so very familiar.  I was called a “Princess” with a capital ‘P’ with a sneer on her face and dripping sarcasm in her voice. She loved to do this in front of neighbors kids or anyone she thought was my friend. I learned how to pretend everything was fine and move along without blinking.

While I agree it is a coping mechanism we shouldn’t have had to develop at such a young age as it prevented us from developing self-confidence and self-esteem, I do think that it may still be a useful tool when dealing with potentially explosive people and situations (if we employ awareness and wisemind).

In such instances (where the explosive person may be a boss, co-worker, landlord, or important business associate), it’s really quite good to be able to not amplify the situation. AND... .I do think that use of the slow processor often means living to see another day and buying us time to come up with a better solution. It has actually given me an edge in several situations in business—not in taking advantage of others, but in that I didn’t step into a landmine.

This is not to excuse our abusers in any way. It was cruel for them to treat us that way.

  L2T

[Harri]

Collected Chaos: 

My parents loved to ask me if I was on my period whenever I was upset about something, and if I said no then it would just be brushed off as PMS and I "must be starting it soon."

I hate this.  I never got that from my parents thankfully (I would have died (no, not really) if they discussed such things  )  Being laughed at was bad enough.

and I think eventually, I stopped being able to realize when I was actually a mess.

Yes!  It became my baseline, sort of like ambient noise... .just there, nothing to pay attention to.

So it's as though I put myself into a situation (avoiding a feeling until much later) to affirm my suspicions about people thinking I am dramatic.  I'm essentially creating a scenario to confirm my assumptions.  I'm happy to be able to see this pattern now, but it's a hard one to break.

I can see where we just feed the assumptions and keep the cycle going.  Are you able to bring things up after the fact with your husband?  How does he respond?  A long ago ex who would listen, after I explained "you got to talk this out but I never did back then.  I wasn't ready then but I am now"... .he listened but only for a short time then i would hear "I am running out of patience" or "I have tolerated this enough".  That just fed into my beliefs that I was only being tolerated or managed. 

L2T:  Being called a Princess is also quite hurtful.  I am sorry they did that to you.

I do think that it may still be a useful tool when dealing with potentially explosive people and situations (if we employ awareness and wisemind).

When I was working it did come in handy when I was in more challenging situations.  I was sought out for dealing with the more difficult people because "Nothing seems to touch you Harri" which was the farthest thing from the truth.  I just talked about this somewhere ... .maybe in Wools' thread that spawned this one?  Though that was dissociation and was so far from taking something bad and making good out of it like you describe here (sorry, just thinking out loud).  I think the bridge from dysfunction to function is what you said:  employ awareness and wise mind.  Okay, sorry for that twisty road i took to get to where you are L2T but I appreciate it!  You are right and you gave me something to work on.  Thank you.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Harri, CollectedChaos, Living2Thrive... .I'm so sorry to hear you experienced this. I agree that what they said to you all is cruel.

I learned to stay calm and act unaffected when my ex would say awful things like this to me. In my case and looking back, I think he was experiencing extremely intense emotions and wanted to elicit an emotional reaction out of me that would somehow make him feel better or something like that or make me look like the crazy one. When I refused to "blow my top" or "break down sobbing", he would become even more cruel and nasty. I think he was trying to escalate while I was trying to de-escalate. I would have to leave the room and do my best to ignore him. It also seemed like he felt he was entitled to say exactly what he was thinking/feeling verbatim and I was supposed to sit there and take it. I refused. He still tries it and I ignore him. Lately he writes things like "you must be on the rag" and "you need to get your panties out of a wad" and so on. It's hard to believe I'm dealing with a 50+ year old man at times. Per my therapist's suggestion, I imagine him as a child in a man's suit. It seems he didn't develop emotional maturity and is stuck at a much younger emotional level. It helps me not react to his rages and insults as much.

I'm also a late processor. I don't process well in the moment. I need time to think about it too. There's nothing wrong with that, IMO.

When they call you something condescending like that stuff, I wonder if they're projecting or deflecting or something. My ex does this often and I'm pretty sure he has deep feelings of insecurity and such. I think he condescends to make himself feel better, much like what bullies do because they tend to have deep unresolved issues. Knowing that helps take the sting from the words for me. If I don't give his words any power, I'm fine (or at least feeling better). At that point, they are just words and hot air.

Part of me wants to reply with a snappy comment in response but I know that would probably just make it worse. I'd rather not stoop to his level as hard as it is sometimes.

[Turkish]

My ex used to ask me if I was on my "man period." She'd ask it in a joking way.  She knew she could get away with it.  It would never occur to me to ask her the same.  I realize that it's different one way than the other. 

[Harri]

Hi I_Am_The_Fire and thanks for joining us!  I am sorry you have to deal with this sort of thing with your husband.  I do want to thank you for sharing though as it broadened my perspective to see it the way you described:  bully-ish behavior.  I never saw it like that.  I was too overwhelmed by shame (which I did not recognize until last night).  

I think he condescends to make himself feel better, much like what bullies do because they tend to have deep unresolved issues. Knowing that helps take the sting from the words for me. If I don't give his words any power, I'm fine (or at least feeling better). At that point, they are just words and hot air.

Thank you.  The adult me can take this and help little Harri understand that it was not her.

Thank you for that insight.  

[Harri]

Turkish:

My ex used to ask me if I was on my "man period." She'd ask it in a joking way.  She knew she could get away with it.  It would never occur to me to ask her the same.  I realize that it's different one way than the other.

  How is it different?  Help me see what you see please.

I've known a few guys over the years who swear they too have PMS like times but that is them saying it.  It was not me or another woman emasculating and mocking them.  It's like I can say oh, I'm having an emotional day (I never talk about PMS... .just not my thing) and I can joke about it and that is okay but say it to me when I have not said it or anytime I am upset?  Fire will shoot out of my eyes!     And of course I will *usually* avert my eyes so no one sees... .can't let them see they are getting to me.   

[I_Am_The_Fire]

You are very welcome. I'm glad it helps.

I was too overwhelmed by shame (which I did not recognize until last night)

That is a tough one. I've struggled with inner toxic shame for years and am working on it in therapy. I think it's good progress that you can see it and talk about it. It's not easy at all.  *hugs*

[naturalturn]

_{This thread was split from Woolspinner's thread here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327401.0;all}

  Too many times if I remained upset I was told I was being a drama queen or would hear "there's my little actress coming out to play".  So I will pretend I am just fine and everything is cool  but it isn't cool, or I should say I am not cool.  

Oh my goodness! This is EXACTLY what I went through growing up! I was always called (and my mother still calls me) such a "drama queen." And would always tell me "stop being so dramatic!" Even now, if I tell her something, she looks to my fiance and asks him the same question because she can't trust what I say since I'm "so dramatic and over exaggerate EVERYTHING!"

Of course, she is the only person in my life who says this to me. When I was a kid, she used to tell me too that I should go for a career in acting when I was upset about something. This made me bottle up my feelings and made me paranoid of annoying people or being "dramatic" which led me to adopt the mantra "I'm fine, everything is fine" even if they weren't.

So invalidating. I believe this has hurt my self esteem tremendously. Additionally, it has made me feel shame whenever I do feel upset since I think it's just me.

[Turkish]

My ex actually was and is drama queen 

After she left I found an exchange on our computer with an old boyfriend (she transferred it there for some reason, and I gotthe sense it was before me). Something like:

"You dare to call ME a drama queen! I'm a lover, fighter, dreamer, survivor!" ... .And a whole lot of narqy words.

True or not, I could place myself in her mind and see how such comments are hugely invalidating.

[Pina colada]

 Harri, they found a perfect way to invalidate you.  I have dealt with that as well.  I always kept things inside as a child but as an adult not so much... .We are here for you to vent and to "validate" you!

[Harri]

Hi naturalturn!  Thanks for joining in!   

So invalidating. I believe this has hurt my self esteem tremendously. Additionally, it has made me feel shame whenever I do feel upset since I think it's just me.

Yes!  Something we both need to work on then huh?  I hate it.  I am still learning when it is okay to share that something upset me and then how to do so.  A lot of it seems to be a willingness to take a leap of faith and trust myself that I can handle the consequences.  I just remembered that I recently had an experience where I was upset (totally my stuff and I think I owned it pretty well) and said something about it and I was all set to be cut off.  Did. Not. Happen.  It was, and still is, a beautiful feeling to be accepted even if I maybe should have kept my mouth shut.  I used to joke that I need someone here to come along and get me angry so I could practie in a safe place... .haha.  No one here has ever made me angry though.

Pina Colada, thank you!  It is good you joined us as well.

Turkish... .  just had to say it didn't you?   again!  Yes, it is hugely invalidating.  I use it all the time with myself to put me down.  I do it as a joke but it is a defense of mine.  I also used it in the past (with my ex long ago) when I wanted to be mean <hangs head>.  It did not matter that he said it first... .  I also used it when describing situations when my mother was alive.  It was definitely deliberately derogatory, sort of a revenge to get her back for what she said about me.  The term drama also lets me put up a barrier between me and the perceived drama.

yeah, one of the many ugly sides of being a hurt human.  I'm getting better though as I learn more and talk about it.

[CollectedChaos]

Are you able to bring things up after the fact with your husband?  How does he respond? 

Hi Harri - I am able to now, but it's hard.  My H is very validating and understands that I tend to take some time to work through things before I can put what's going on in my jumbled up brain into words and cohesive thoughts, which I am thankful for.  It does frustrate him that I'm unable to that right away, but I'm lucky that for now, he's meeting me where I am at.  He knows I have a hard time bringing things back up at all and since I was so closed off for so long I think he is glad to see that I'm making a visible effort at changing that (however small the baby steps may be!).  I should also say that I think it helps that he's a T, so he has a pretty good understanding of PTSD and the effects of my not-so-great childhood. 

My ex used to ask me if I was on my "man period." She'd ask it in a joking way.  She knew she could get away with it.  It would never occur to me to ask her the same.  I realize that it's different one way than the other.

Hi Turkish - I don't think it's different at all the other way around at all.  It's still a way to invalidate your feelings and emotions and an attempt to give themselves the "upper hand."

L2T, I do agree that being able to remain calm under the craziest of circumstances DOES have it's benefits in certain situations!  Thanks for pointing out the silver lining  

Additionally, it has made me feel shame whenever I do feel upset since I think it's just me.

naturalturn, I can totally relate to this.  I think my gut reaction in tense/upsetting situations is that I AM just being dramatic and need to cool it, instead of realizing that my feelings are valid and okay and normal.  I feel like I don't have a reason to be upset, and try to talk myself out of it.

[Harri]

he's meeting me where I am at.

   He sounds like a keeper   

I have often wondered how much of my past to share.  How much is appropriate and when would it cross the line in to asking someone to enable me.  id you or do you ever have concerns about that?  Can I ask if he knew about your past before you were married or was it something you shared prior?  Sometimes I get confused about that... .when to share.  Some of the posts on the other boards here indicate that the non only found out about abuse after they were married or involved for a long time.  I am not sure that what happened to me is important to share with someone or not.  What happened and how it affects me is mine to deal with... .but then it clearly affects the whole relationship as well.

[CollectedChaos]

He is a keeper, I am very lucky  

I struggle with this too.  I don't want to be judged for my childhood, even though I logically know that no sane person would think negatively of me because my parents weren't great.  I also am generally a guarded person (shame) and have a hard time deciding what to share and what to not.  I go back and forth between not wanting to share because I worry that the person will then treat me with kid gloves, or think I am just looking for attention/sympathy when I don't deserve it.  I think this is similar to what you're saying about asking others to enable you.  However, I have seen in my marriage that when I'm open, I get positive reinforcement but also constructive criticisms where they are warranted.  I've come to realize that true intimacy involves sharing what's going on in my head, whatever it may be.  Perhaps I'm lucky to have an interested H, but it feels good to share and feel connected to another person.  It's something I didn't really have as a kid, so it's a weird feeling but also one that makes me feel really good.  The tricky part is remembering tat good feeling during the next time that I'm wondering if I should share or not. 

When my H and I met, I was still very enmeshed with my family.  A few circumstances between my mom and my H, and my mom and I, started opening my eyes to how damaging she really could be... .and that's when I learned about BPD, started seeing a T, and distancing myself from my mom.  Through those first-hand experiences with my family my H kind of figured out that my childhood must've been a bit of a mess.  And I am a generally very introverted, shy, low self-esteem person so that likely helped bolster that thought.  Slowly over time he's seen/heard the real extent of it, but I don't think he fully grasped it all until we had been married a couple of years (we've been married for 7 now).  And typically, until the last couple of years, he would have to ask me direct questions about my childhood to learn things.  I'm working hard at sharing more now, but also working on a balance.  I don't want to just unload everything on him and force him into a position of a T with me, since that's not healthy either.  But when I'm having a hard day, I try to be open about it and open about why (generally it's the past creeping up and bogging me down). 

I'm not really sure I've answered your question - I feel like I'm just rambling at this point.  I'll work on collecting my thoughts and will come back later  

[Harri]

Thank you Collected Chaos!  When I wrote my last post I realized this question would make a good thread all on it's own, plus I did not want to hijack the thread (but can you really hijack your own thread?) so I started another thread but this fits here too!  Errr... .sorry.

Your so called ramble actually gave me some great info.  Now I wish your husband were here so I could pick his brain too!  haha  Like does he feel like you were keeping secrets before he learned what happened?  My sexual abuse was pretty severe and lasted until I was into adulthood... .that effects me so much on so many levels but I never want to use it as an excuse, justification or even an explanation.  As I said in the other thread I started, my red flags and triggers are mine to deal with and only mine.  I guess it is about balance?

A lot of my view gets warped based on what I read here.  From people, nons, who are angry, perhaps not too healthy themselves  and avoid people with histories like mine/ours because of the dreaded red flags.   Which brings me to what you said here: CollectedChaos: 

even though I logically know that no sane person would think negatively of me because my parents weren't great.

But people here do that all the time!  And it does make me wonder how much to disclose.  Too little?  They feel taken advantage of or fooled.  Too much?  It becomes a crutch for us and a way for them to not take responsibility for their stuff... .and they all have stuff they need to take responsibility for!

Am I making sense?  Maybe I need to widen my reading pool.

Not to be pushy or anything  but if you want, here is a link to the other thread I started https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327870.0 

[CollectedChaos]

Ha!  You know, you said you thought you should start another thread and I didn't even think to check and see if you did!  Silly me.  I will head over there next  

I don't think he felt like I was intentionally keeping secrets from him in a deceiving or manipulative way, but I do think he felt "boxed out," if that makes sense.  Like, he knew there was more going on in my head but I wasn't sharing it, and knowing people are not giving you their whole isn't a great feeling.  I think for him it probably felt as though I wasn't as "in" the relationship as he was.  I also think he saw my lack of talking about my feelings as an indicator that perhaps I wasn't very interested in changing and improving things.  He said that he wanted me to tell him more, and I wasn't pushing myself to do it, so it makes sense as to why he would come to this conclusion.

I agree that it is about balance - I don't think I've found a good balance yet, but I'm slowly moving myself more towards the middle of "no sharing" and "oversharing," I think.  i'm hoping it'll feel right when I've hit the right spot.

You're right, I read on here a lot that SOs, friends, etc just don't understand what we went through and tend to ghost or distance themselves after learning some things.  And I think it really depends on that person, and not you.  Some people just can't see outside their own world view enough to really understand abuse (I still have a hard time using this word, but that's a topic for another day... .) and poor parenting, or choose not to look at it because it's painful and disrupts their view of life.  Both are fine reactions, and I understand them, but clearly won't work for someone like us long-term.  Not that we can only have relationships with others who were abused, but there are some people who are more understanding of how much childhood can affect adulthood than others.  And there are some people willing to look past some typical "red flags" because they see them differently than others.

And it does make me wonder how much to disclose.  Too little?  They feel taken advantage of or fooled.  Too much?  It becomes a crutch for us and a way for them to not take responsibility for their stuff... .and they all have stuff they need to take responsibility for! tongue

This is very true, and I think it really depends on the person.  I tend to think that the people who are going to feel either of these things forever (yeah, they may feel that way initially which is fine) are not so mentally healthy themselves.  If they feel fooled initially that makes total sense, but they should be able to, eventually, delve deeper into that feeling and communicate with you about it and you can move past it together.  If they are going to take advantage of your shortcomings and then use them in order to mask their own, that's a pretty clear sign that they have some issues to work out as well.  I also think it's easy to hear stories of these things happening and assume that this is the status quo, but it's hard to tell how accurate that really is.

All of this, of course, is easy for me to say now but in practice is much harder to remind myself of.  Fake it til you make it?

[Woolspinner2000]

Harri,

I've been thinking about how I put on a facade that everything is okay after a conflict.   

The llama has been slow to respond but I read something over the weekend that seems to apply to where we were going with the thoughts about this whole feeling of everything being okay.

"You [we] are tempted to believe lies. You convince yourself of things that are not true. You see a shred of evidence and believe it to be the whole truth. How do I know this?
I know this because you cannot live with a narcissistic and emotional abuser without being indoctrinated into [their] 'spin.' Remember that emotional abuse is largely a defense effort at self-protection, filled with lies. [They] lie to themselves and you." (from Dr. David Hawkins)

To me this is saying that we have heard the lies, projections and defining of those disordered people around us (ie my uBPDm), then we believe what they say and believe it to be the whole truth. We then convince ourselves that nothing more is wrong. It carries on over into our adult lives and doesn't work so well anymore.

Wools