discipline threats with no follow-through

[Woodchuck]

One of the major points of contention in our house is the constant threats of punishment that my uBPDw voices to the kids.  I don't believe a day goes by without her threatening to spank them (S14 and D11) if they don't obey or do or say something that they are supposed to.  I don't think that anyone in the house could tell you when the last time was that she actually followed through with the threat.  I believe this is damaging all the way around as the children know that it is an empty threat so they don't take it seriously and therefore don't always obey as they would if they knew there were actual consequences.  This in turn makes her feel like they don't respect her authority and it frustrates me to see/hear the constant empty threats.  There may be a place for a threat of discipline that you would not follow through on from time to time but I do not believe that it should be a daily habit.  I have attempted to discuss the concern with her and as expected, that did not go well.  I was not being supportive etc.  Additionally, in my opinion, the kids are past the age of a spanking being an effective/appropriate punishment, so why even threaten it?  I just don't know how to handle the empty threats.  I believe the kids need to learn that there are consequences (both good and bad) and that when the consequences are communicated to them that they will be followed through on as appropriate.

Woodchuck

[Turkish]

What's the balance or ratio of how much this frustrates you vs. the kids? Do they even take it seriously or fearfully or do they think "whatever mom!"

[Woodchuck]

What's the balance or ratio of how much this frustrates you vs. the kids? Do they even take it seriously or fearfully or do they think "whatever mom!"

I don't think they take it fearfully at all.  It is probably most that it is frustrating to me because I do not believe that it is healthy for her or for the kids.

[Turkish]

Have you asked them how they feel about it?

[Woodchuck]

Have you asked them how they feel about it?

I have, they just kind of think it is funny.  I don't bring it up at all with the wife.  It is just something that is irritating.  Why spend the time and energy to threaten something that you have absolutely no intention of following through with?

[AnuDay]

I agree with Turk here.  I've seen this before.  Not so much of a BPD issue as much as it's just bad parenting... .there's a lot of it out there. Just be glad the kids are old enough to see through it. 

[Turkish]

I have, they just kind of think it is funny.  I don't bring it up at all with the wife.  It is just something that is irritating.  Why spend the time and energy to threaten something that you have absolutely no intention of following through with?

I'm glad that they aren't traumatized by it.  I joke with my kids,  "do you want a beating?" We never spanked but they know I'm serious... but not.

That the kids don't take it seriously is good on one hand (they aren't being abused), but on the other hand,  they don't take their mom seriously.  But that's a ball in her court and it sounds like your conversations about it with her haven't yielded much fruit. Irritating, as you say. I can imagine it being even more irritating parenting in the same household. 

Your wife, however,  is who she is.  She owns that. 

[kells76]

Hey Woodchuck, kells76 chiming in here. Glad you found the boards!

I believe the kids need to learn that there are consequences (both good and bad) and that when the consequences are communicated to them that they will be followed through on as appropriate.

Follow-through in general has felt really important to me with DH's kids. I get the sense that at Mom's house they are told a lot of things that "they will do" or "this will happen" or "as soon as X, we will get Y". I don't hear a lot about those things actually happening. Sometimes I hear about Stepdad saying "I'll give you a million dollars, I promise, if you do Z". I guess that can be more of a personality thing, but my personal value is that if you promise something, you'd better follow through, otherwise your words are empty.

It bugs me, because, like you, I think it's important for kids to see that normally reality is structured in a cause-and-effect way. I also think it's important that if a person says they'll do X, that they do X.

Why spend the time and energy to threaten something that you have absolutely no intention of following through with?

Yeah, I know. Maybe because saying you'll do it makes you feel like you did it, but without all the hassle? Kind of a "have your cake and eat it too" situation?

Anyway, it's not ideal, but I wonder if "parallel parenting" is a way to go in your house. Typically it's for separated parents, but it sounds tough to get on the same page with your W. And, it sounds like the kids are old enough where they can -- to some degree -- think about and realize that Mom and Dad parent differently, without that disconnect showing up in acting out a ton (true?).

So, maybe the way your kids will learn about consequences and follow-through is just going to be through you. You can't make your W do it, but you can control what you do, and you can try to be impeccable about doing X when you told the kids you'd do X.

Like Turkish said,

they don't take their mom seriously.  But that's a ball in her court

which is too bad. But it's also Mom's problem. Maybe the trick is to figure out how to not have Mom's problem be your problem, and for you to model follow-through for your kids.

Just some a.m. food for thought... .

kells76

[Woodchuck]

Hey Woodchuck, kells76 chiming in here. Glad you found the boards!

Follow-through in general has felt really important to me with DH's kids. I get the sense that at Mom's house they are told a lot of things that "they will do" or "this will happen" or "as soon as X, we will get Y". I don't hear a lot about those things actually happening. Sometimes I hear about Stepdad saying "I'll give you a million dollars, I promise, if you do Z". I guess that can be more of a personality thing, but my personal value is that if you promise something, you'd better follow through, otherwise your words are empty.

It bugs me, because, like you, I think it's important for kids to see that normally reality is structured in a cause-and-effect way. I also think it's important that if a person says they'll do X, that they do X.

Yeah, I know. Maybe because saying you'll do it makes you feel like you did it, but without all the hassle? Kind of a "have your cake and eat it too" situation?

Anyway, it's not ideal, but I wonder if "parallel parenting" is a way to go in your house. Typically it's for separated parents, but it sounds tough to get on the same page with your W. And, it sounds like the kids are old enough where they can -- to some degree -- think about and realize that Mom and Dad parent differently, without that disconnect showing up in acting out a ton (true?).

So, maybe the way your kids will learn about consequences and follow-through is just going to be through you. You can't make your W do it, but you can control what you do, and you can try to be impeccable about doing X when you told the kids you'd do X.

Like Turkish said,

which is too bad. But it's also Mom's problem. Maybe the trick is to figure out how to not have Mom's problem be your problem, and for you to model follow-through for your kids.

Just some a.m. food for thought... .

kells76

I think that parallel parenting is basically the way we handle most things.  She has maintained that if she sees things differently than I do, she is not changing.  I believe that in a healthy relationship, two people would sit down and discuss the differences and come to a compromise or at least an agreement of some kind and move forward with mutual respect.  That is not what happens in our house.  It is either everyone is on board with her not.  At least that is how it seems to me.  There is no give and take or compromising.  I think the part that makes it frustrating for me is the constant criticism about my parenting skills or lack thereof.  Yes, I use the 'pink elephant' idea now but it is still difficult to constantly be put down when you are doing the best you can.  It makes it more difficult, at least for me to separate everything and let her have her own problems.

Woodchuck

[takingandsending]

Hi Woodchuck.

Boy, your posts are reminding me a lot of my life with my xw before I moved out. I did find that the communication tools on this site, especially the ones about boundaries, helped me alleviate some of the daily drama. I won't say that I learned to take care of myself - not sure I am doing great at that even now having been out of the house for a year and a half, but it definitely did improve my own sanity and health to recognize conversations were no longer healthy, providing brief validation and then placing a boundary on further discussion if it was not civil/respectful. I would let her know when I would be back, then leave with the kids to a park or bike ride for 30 minutes, and return when I said. It wasn't heaven, but at least it wasn't hell in the house, either, which it would have been had I not exercised the boundaries.

In the end, I stopped looking for "healthy relationship", "reasonable discussion", "equal" or "fair". The more I developed boundaries, the more clearly I knew that my xw is truly not capable of being in a relationship based on those things. She's not a monster, wrong, bad or otherwise, but her capacity to be anything other than obsessively concerned with her immediate feelings to avoid her true feelings is so limited that staying with her ultimately began to make me a less effective, less attached parent to S7 and S12. I had huge fears about leaving them with her when I moved out, but S12 has thrived, and S7, despite recent bumps, appears to be doing better, too.

I still get the insults and complaints about my parenting, the digs that she is free daycare and why don't I pay her for watching the children, etc. It's a whole lot of projection and hot air, and she can't/won't help herself. Not my problem. My focus is on my sons and being the best dad for them that I can. And I can do that a lot better on my own than I could when we were all together.

[Woodchuck]

Hi Woodchuck.

Boy, your posts are reminding me a lot of my life with my xw before I moved out. I did find that the communication tools on this site, especially the ones about boundaries, helped me alleviate some of the daily drama. I won't say that I learned to take care of myself - not sure I am doing great at that even now having been out of the house for a year and a half, but it definitely did improve my own sanity and health to recognize conversations were no longer healthy, providing brief validation and then placing a boundary on further discussion if it was not civil/respectful. I would let her know when I would be back, then leave with the kids to a park or bike ride for 30 minutes, and return when I said. It wasn't heaven, but at least it wasn't hell in the house, either, which it would have been had I not exercised the boundaries.

In the end, I stopped looking for "healthy relationship", "reasonable discussion", "equal" or "fair". The more I developed boundaries, the more clearly I knew that my xw is truly not capable of being in a relationship based on those things. She's not a monster, wrong, bad or otherwise, but her capacity to be anything other than obsessively concerned with her immediate feelings to avoid her true feelings is so limited that staying with her ultimately began to make me a less effective, less attached parent to S7 and S12. I had huge fears about leaving them with her when I moved out, but S12 has thrived, and S7, despite recent bumps, appears to be doing better, too.

I still get the insults and complaints about my parenting, the digs that she is free daycare and why don't I pay her for watching the children, etc. It's a whole lot of projection and hot air, and she can't/won't help herself. Not my problem. My focus is on my sons and being the best dad for them that I can. And I can do that a lot better on my own than I could when we were all together.

takingandsending
Your situation does sound very familiar.  How do you deal with not looking for a 'healthy relationship', 'reasonable discussion', 'equal or fair'?  I feel empty and alone aside from the children but I cannot expect them to fill those voids and I cannot see how it is healthy for myself to just leave those voids unfilled, yet I see no healthy or right way to fill them.  It does make things easier to understand that the upwBPD is acting within their capacity and that their actions/words are not 'intentional'.  I have thought quite a bit about leaving but have the same fears about the children as you did.  On top of that, everything is in my name so it is a bit difficult for me to just pick up and leave everything behind.  I would have a house that I have to sell etc.  I also run a side business from my home that involves a substantial bit of equipment.  I couldn't just throw it all in the back of a moving truck and move to an apartment.  I need at least a 2-3 car garage or dedicated shop to put everything.  So with those facts I feel a bit 'stuck'.  At the end of the day though, the children and their wellbeing is my greatest concern.

[takingandsending]

Hi Woodchuck.

I wish I had a better answer to give you. I was empty for two years while I used the tools, made things as good as I could, and tried, in vain, to see some way of building positive regard with my wife. Problem was, even when I built up a little resource of positive regard for my xw, she truly had none for me, not a whit. My whole marriage was largely a one sided event. I gave, I loved, I tried to reconcile, I was the one to repair after an argument. Could I have continued doing that? Maybe. But once I learned about BPD from our MC and understood how very little of what was going on really had to do with me, or my kids, or anything outside of what feeling xw was running from at the moment, I stopped hoping for things to get better. Unless she went into serious, in depth CBT/DBT and started to deal with her thoughts, nothing I did or said was going to change anything.

Even still, I hung in there for my sons ... .until she went on a business/vacation for 10-11 days. Those 10-11 days were like heaven in my house. The kids and me got along, got to school, got to work, played, read, watched a movie, rode bikes ... .just no fighting, no fuss, just happy. I was overwhelmed with how much easier it was without my wife. And, I realized that the amount of energy and time that I was spending placating, negotiating, and dealing with her upsets and trying to protect the kids was simply immense. And all of that time and energy wouldn't go to loving and parenting my kids; it was simply lost to the devouring dynamic of survival. That was the beginning of my decision that I would not be able to continue living with my xw.

I had a lot of fear when I moved out, which of course was another one sided dynamic - if you ever do decide it's over, don't entertain "nesting" as an option that's best for the kids - there is no way your spouse with BPD will be able to follow through. I really didn't know if I was doing the best thing for my kids. A month after I had moved, I took my S12 to an appointment with his T, and the T said that he was as relaxed as she had ever seen him. You have no idea how many tons of worry that I was carrying lifted from my shoulders in that moment. It's a huge step, and everybody has their own unique situation. I really am praying for you and your family. I know how hard this all is. Keep reaching out to others for help and support. Use the communication tools, and work on developing boundaries that are meaningful to who you are/what makes you you. When you start valuing what is integral to who you are, it will become easier to see or know what's right for you. And as long as you are able to validate your kids and love them with secure, consistent attachment, that is the best that you can be for them.