Can someone talk some sense into my foolish self? Contacted again.

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi All: I hate to admit this, it sounds so stupid since I was feeling so strong just a week ago. My ex started emailing me, brief emails. Then I responded and that opened the door. He asked me if we should tell each other if we started seeing someone so that we weren't blindsided by it if we ran into each other out somewhere. I said yes, that it would be better to know and be prepared. Then I decided to be honest and tell him I had gone on a recent date, just a friendly thing. He initially flipped out. But when I told him I had seen on social media that he was looking on dating sites and I figured he had moved on, then he became very sad. Said he didn't want anyone else, only me, and he couldn't stand to think of me with anyone else. He said he'd lost everything, that he was a complete bum (still hasn't found a job). When I said we needed to stop contacting each other because all it did was upset us, and that we needed to let each other go, he said he couldn't. He said he missed me and loved me and didn't want to let go. That knowing he had hurt me was tearing him up inside. Well of course, that pulled all of my emotions to the surface in a huge surge of love and need and sadness. I told him I missed him and that I loved him, but that we weren't good for each other and needed to just work on ourselves. But damn, how stupid! I opened the door, I responded. That opened the floodgates.
I try to remember that he can be manipulative, and of course this was all triggered at the thought of me being with someone else. I don't intend to see him. I know it would be a mistake. But oh, a big part of me wants to so much. I know it would be a passionate, intense, amazing and beautiful lovemaking session. But after that... .then what? Have to think about that, too.
 He is in counseling and has a diagnosis of BPD, and seems to be doing okay with his therapist. But it's only been six weeks or so. And even if he did make some amazing kind of progress and was committed to change, everything I've read said it takes years. And then there are other obstacles. My sons don't like him, my family doesn't like him, and my friends don't like him, because of what he put me through. So how could we possibly expect it to work? And yet I feel that strong pull, you know how it is. I'm so frustrated with myself for responding to him, and worse, for telling him I had gone out with someone else. Maybe I should have lied to him, but I didn't want to do that. Smarter thing would, of course, have been to have stayed silent, no response to his emails.
So what to do now? Reiterate that we can't stay in contact, that we must go back to NC? He seems so sad, so needy, and I'm so susceptible to it.
Apart from all of this, I like the man I went out with. He seems really nice and funny and respectful and (so far) normal. We seem to have the same values, which is important to me, too. I'd like to get to know him better, but maybe that's not a good idea when I'm so easily pulled back emotionally to my ex. What a mess. Any advice? I just feel so stupid right now. I can't undo it. Now is just damage control, I guess. 

[WindofChange]

Hi All: I hate to admit this, it sounds so stupid since I was feeling so strong just a week ago. My ex started emailing me, brief emails. Then I responded and that opened the door. He asked me if we should tell each other if we started seeing someone so that we weren't blindsided by it if we ran into each other out somewhere. I said yes, that it would be better to know and be prepared. Then I decided to be honest and tell him I had gone on a recent date, just a friendly thing. He initially flipped out. But when I told him I had seen on social media that he was looking on dating sites and I figured he had moved on, then he became very sad. Said he didn't want anyone else, only me, and he couldn't stand to think of me with anyone else. He said he'd lost everything, that he was a complete bum (still hasn't found a job). When I said we needed to stop contacting each other because all it did was upset us, and that we needed to let each other go, he said he couldn't. He said he missed me and loved me and didn't want to let go. That knowing he had hurt me was tearing him up inside. Well of course, that pulled all of my emotions to the surface in a huge surge of love and need and sadness. I told him I missed him and that I loved him, but that we weren't good for each other and needed to just work on ourselves. But damn, how stupid! I opened the door, I responded. That opened the floodgates.
I try to remember that he can be manipulative, and of course this was all triggered at the thought of me being with someone else. I don't intend to see him. I know it would be a mistake. But oh, a big part of me wants to so much. I know it would be a passionate, intense, amazing and beautiful lovemaking session. But after that... .then what? Have to think about that, too.
 He is in counseling and has a diagnosis of BPD, and seems to be doing okay with his therapist. But it's only been six weeks or so. And even if he did make some amazing kind of progress and was committed to change, everything I've read said it takes years. And then there are other obstacles. My sons don't like him, my family doesn't like him, and my friends don't like him, because of what he put me through. So how could we possibly expect it to work? And yet I feel that strong pull, you know how it is. I'm so frustrated with myself for responding to him, and worse, for telling him I had gone out with someone else. Maybe I should have lied to him, but I didn't want to do that. Smarter thing would, of course, have been to have stayed silent, no response to his emails.
So what to do now? Reiterate that we can't stay in contact, that we must go back to NC? He seems so sad, so needy, and I'm so susceptible to it.
Apart from all of this, I like the man I went out with. He seems really nice and funny and respectful and (so far) normal. We seem to have the same values, which is important to me, too. I'd like to get to know him better, but maybe that's not a good idea when I'm so easily pulled back emotionally to my ex. What a mess. Any advice? I just feel so stupid right now. I can't undo it. Now is just damage control, I guess. 

[WindofChange]

Update: Momentary insanity. After the upsurge of emotions last night and this morning, and after writing it all out here, I feel more calm and rational. I just had to deal with feeling those emotions that I guess I wasn't prepared for. I know logically all the reasons why it won't work. My heart just wants to hold on, especially with all he was saying to me, pouring his heart out about missing me and not wanting anyone else. Of course my romantic self wants to believe that it's all true, that giving it another go would be different. And I do miss him very much. But what could have changed in just a few short months? He may feel remorse and miss me, but he is the same person for the most part, as am I, though I'm working on my codependent issues and on living my life without him.
So as long as he doesn't ask me to meet him, I'll be okay. I think. Ridiculous, isn't it?

[once removed]

Ridiculous, isn't it?

nah. just the intense ups and downs of detaching, friend.

glad to hear youre feeling better now. those surges, they do pass.

so what are you thinking, if anything, in terms of next steps?

[Cromwell]

Sounds like the "pull" part of the cycle and I understand how enticing it can be, especially when you mention all the positive words and the temptation that maybe this time things are different, its a difficult offer to pass up on.

This was what caused me to become recycled each time and the difficult part of it is that everything was great again each time I had returned. The phrase invoked in me here is "you dont know what you had until its gone" - it always felt that as time went on I was eventually taken for granted and the negative behaviour started again at the peak of where everything for me seemed to be going amazing.

Far from ever criticising that you made some conciliatory comments - it hasnt taken you long to readjust and rethink it, getting back to the detaching goal - my own opinion is that takes strength because rather than return and take a chance as I did, your making a decision based on past experience.

I also recall getting a voicemail which was childlike in tone, your post spurred me to recall it, it went along the lines "Cromwell, I havent been ignoring you (2 weeks no contact) I lost my job, I had no money to credit my phone".

Of course I chose to accept it, race back like a white knight, its true that she had got herself in a bad position, its true that things went well for another cycle, yet it always ended the same way - once she got helped back on her feet perhaps there is the additional bitter feeling of having been helped and feeling 'indebteded' as opposed to accepting kindness. It also defined myself in the relationship de-facto as a rescuer, something that I didnt want from the start but evolved into. Once you start establishing this pattern it is a hard one to shake off. No good deed goes unpunished - might not apply universally, but definetely applied consistently with what I went through.

[Starfire]

If you're ridiculous, we're all ridiculous.  At least we're in good company.  That is to say, don't be so hard on yourself.  You allowed yourself to be vulnerable for a hot minute.  Now you're thinking more clearly.  Remind yourself of your goals and what you need to happen next in order to achieve them.

[WindofChange]

Thanks for your replies, everyone. Onceremoved, as far as next steps, I haven't taken the most important one of telling him I can't keep talking to him. We talked via text last night. He hasn't asked to see me, just tells me he hopes we can one day work things out, that he wishes he had fought harder to keep me, etc. I know what I need to do, but am having a hard time in the actual execution of it. Of course it's because I went on a date--he doesn't want me to be with anyone else--says the thought makes him feel sick.
Cromwell, it's definitely hard to resist and I know you're right about how things would unfold. It would be wonderful at first, but then things would slide back into old patterns. He was telling me he had absolutely no money and couldn't even afford to buy his antidepressant. Of course, I offered to pay for it, said I didn't have to see him, that I could just put the money into his account or drop it off at his friend's house. To his credit, he refused. He ended up selling some things to get the money together to get his prescription, so I'm glad he did that. I'm trying hard to be logical instead of focusing on these feelings because I do know we can't be together. Neither of us has done enough work on ourselves up to this point at any rate. Hard not to wonder about the future, but I know that's not healthy thinking either.
But it's a war between the head and the heart. The pull is very strong. He asked last night if we could just text each other and talk this way for a while and see how it goes. He said he deleted his dating profile and unblocked me on social media because he wanted me to see he isn't hiding anything from me and that there is no one else he wants to be with but me. When he's vicious and hurtful, of course it's easy to stay away. When he's remorseful and says all these loving things, not so much. Again, I know what to do, and I know continuing with this is just going to set us both back in the process. It's pulling the trigger when he's being this way that's so very hard.
I probably don't need to continue with my new friend either. Obviously I'm not ready for a new relationship anyway. I just wanted to date for a while. Date, not fall into bed with someone else. And I haven't and don't intend to. But maybe it isn't fair to this other man to even see him when my head is still so messed up. This all just sucks, doesn't it? This whole process. So hard to tear yourself away from someone you still love. If the love is gone, of course it's much easier, although sometimes there are feelings of guilt, etc. to deal with. But when you still love them and are still attracted to them (and of course, the whole rescuing compulsion is there), it is just incredibly difficult.

[WindofChange]

Nothing like stating the obvious, right? If it wasn't this difficult, there wouldn't be a need for this site. I'm really glad it exists! And I always appreciate any input or responses from everyone. The support here is so, so beneficial and encouraging.

[Cromwell]

Hi Windofchange

I know what a struggle it is from what you describe, I certainly look back to the moments that I had made moves such as you have done to leave, it initiated a complete change of character, it is in some ways hard to say but in looking back at the relationship it was at those junctures that I have the best happy memories of her (the times I was leaving), so no wonder I didnt, thinking "this time it must be different, she has finally seen the light and has changed) - not that I did this intentionally to provoke that, I was leaving each time with full determination, but was too weak to ignore the recycling actions.

Ive been told that im the nicest person when im drunk. Id apply to my ex - she was the nicest person when she was in the utmost pit of despair. But that wasnt about love that I had ascribed to the situation, it was one of her intense momentary desperation. In short, it wasnt about me at all - beyond that she called upon me as being the best person available in her life to supply the emotional soothing she was looking for. I was momentarily idolised not 'loved'.

momentarily is the key word at play here.

[WindofChange]

Thank you, Cromwell, for your reply, and for sharing how it was for you. I do think it would be that way as well. For a while he would be on his best behavior and it would be wonderful. He has had cycles of that during our relationship after extremely bad times. He said with therapy he's getting better -- but it's only been about two months. He emailed me all the things he loves about me and has apologized for all the hateful things he's said to me and all he has put me through. I know it's all been triggered by my dating this other man, as I mentioned. I wonder if it's back in the idealization phase now, and I do wonder if it's coming from a place of desperation and he's looking to me to be supported and soothed. He insist's it's not a dependent thing, that he truly loves me, and I do feel that he does. I'm not dismissing his feelings because I know how it was for me as well.  I just also know that nothing could have changed that drastically in a few short months.
You mentioned being idolized by your ex. How long did those recycled periods last for you? I just wondered how long it took to go back to status quo with old behaviors coming back.

[Cromwell]

Thank you, Cromwell, for your reply, and for sharing how it was for you. I do think it would be that way as well. For a while he would be on his best behavior and it would be wonderful. He has had cycles of that during our relationship after extremely bad times. He said with therapy he's getting better -- but it's only been about two months. He emailed me all the things he loves about me and has apologized for all the hateful things he's said to me and all he has put me through. I know it's all been triggered by my dating this other man, as I mentioned. I wonder if it's back in the idealization phase now, and I do wonder if it's coming from a place of desperation and he's looking to me to be supported and soothed. He insist's it's not a dependent thing, that he truly loves me, and I do feel that he does. I'm not dismissing his feelings because I know how it was for me as well.  I just also know that nothing could have changed that drastically in a few short months.
You mentioned being idolized by your ex. How long did those recycled periods last for you? I just wondered how long it took to go back to status quo with old behaviors coming back.

Hi Windofchange.

With regards to some of his behaviour at the moment, my first thought is one of "how much is his behaviour a result of taking on a new persona as a therapy client", the list of things about how much he loves you, and apologising - is this something new? or could it be that he has been prompted into these activities? Just feel there might be something there. How much of it is role play with his therapist to show that he is going through the motions of whatever they are suggesting. I know that some therapists suggest stuff like list writing, so there is a bit of suspicion there.

I was recycled within hours, days, at most apart was 4 weeks.

The shorter the time between recycles, the quicker the unwanted behaviour resurfaced. After the 4 weeks apart, the last recycle, the relationship was great again for the whole summer, yet that doesnt mean to say in the background she wasnt up to anything - sleeping elsewhere - what it was that she realised that I would leave so everything on the face of it was 'good behaviour'.

When the signs of that mask falling off again, and I was taken for granted, I made the decisive choice to leave, id describe it like some do here as feeling the rollercoaster going downwards, but this time I recognised it and had already started to research about the condition and got help on these boards.

It wasnt simple as I thought to just ghost her, go no contact, and think that was the end of it. Thats when the stalking started, but there wasnt that much she could do in practical terms. When I experienced the stalking, it just made me confirm ever more that I was right in my decision.

The biggest problem I experienced was going back each time, the way id describe it is an indication that if a certain amount of pressure is applied, I would go back. Thats why when the choice to go NC is taken seriously, my opinion is crystal clear that is has to be absolute. To give the impression that a phone will be picked up on the 50th time it gets called and engage in a discussion, creates a mindset that "just have to keep trying harder", whenever the next seperation happens. I didnt do myself any favours of speaking to her - we met on public transport by pure accident after 8 months of complete NC. Will this make it more likely that I havent heard the last of her than if I had ignored her? im certain of it. Members here get contacted years out of nowhere, I expect the same although I know how to handle it.

I still get my weak moments on occasion where i feel sympathy, think I have been overly-critical, and it is those days im fortunate to just recognise that I just need a few hours or a good nights sleep to wake up with the correct mindset again. I made the right decision, sticking to it is essential for my own wellbeing. It gets easier as time goes on and the emotions fade, she becomes seen more as a blip encounter in the history of my relationships rather than in the present. Life goes on, but not by itself, I know I wouldnt be in the good situation I have got to if she was still part of my life and that realisation makes staying detached permanently a no-brainer decision. Its proof that I shouldered a burden that I hadnt even realised how heavy was impinging my prospects and potential to genuine fulfillment. 

[WindofChange]

Hi Windofchange.

With regards to some of his behaviour at the moment, my first thought is one of "how much is his behaviour a result of taking on a new persona as a therapy client", the list of things about how much he loves you, and apologising - is this something new? or could it be that he has been prompted into these activities? Just feel there might be something there. How much of it is role play with his therapist to show that he is going through the motions of whatever they are suggesting. I know that some therapists suggest stuff like list writing, so there is a bit of suspicion there.

 I still get my weak moments on occasion where i feel sympathy, think I have been overly-critical, and it is those days im fortunate to just recognise that I just need a few hours or a good nights sleep to wake up with the correct mindset again. I made the right decision, sticking to it is essential for my own wellbeing. It gets easier as time goes on and the emotions fade, she becomes seen more as a blip encounter in the history of my relationships rather than in the present. Life goes on, but not by itself, I know I wouldnt be in the good situation I have got to if she was still part of my life and that realisation makes staying detached permanently a no-brainer decision. Its proof that I shouldered a burden that I hadnt even realised how heavy was impinging my prospects and potential to genuine fulfillment. 

The role playing of good therapy client is something I had not considered, and is an unsettling thought for me. One I don't like, honestly. But I need to think about it and keep my eyes open so I'm not taken in again.
Your resolve in keeping to your own path and moving forward is impressive to me, Cromwell. I'm sure it's been a hard road but you've stayed the course. I'm seeing my T today so I can get feedback from her as well. My gut feeling is I don't need to be involved with anyone romantically right now, but just need to focus on becoming a whole and complete person in my own right. Then at that point, I will be ready to consider sharing my life with someone again. Thank you for sharing your struggle and pointing out things I need to think about. I appreciate it so much.