How much do my red flags matter in a relationship?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don't know what I am trying to ask.  My history is something that keeps me from getting involved with people in real life.  I don't want someone giving me a break because of my past, I don't want someone rejecting me or judging me for my past either... .I don't want my past to be used as reason to treat me any differently than they would another person.  So why even mention it other than to say something like 'I did not have a happy childhood' and not get into specifics.  I mean my red flags and triggers are for me alone to manage.  Why does the other person need to know any of what happened?  They only need to know who I am now.

Not sure if any of the above is reasonable though.  How much do my red flags matter to someone else is the question.  

[Harri]

I don't know what I am trying to ask.  My history is something that keeps me from getting involved with people in real life.  I don't want someone giving me a break because of my past, I don't want someone rejecting me or judging me for my past either... .I don't want my past to be used as reason to treat me any differently than they would another person.  So why even mention it other than to say something like 'I did not have a happy childhood' and not get into specifics.  I mean my red flags and triggers are for me alone to manage.  Why does the other person need to know any of what happened?  They only need to know who I am now.

Not sure if any of the above is reasonable though.  How much do my red flags matter to someone else is the question.  

[Notwendy]

Great question.

Our red flags may be related to how we were raised, but our story isn't what is going to cause difficulties in a relationship. This is what I learned from ACA groups ( and families with alcoholics are similar to families with BPD in the dynamics ). "we picked up the alcoholic family behaviors without picking up a drink".

Children growing up in dysfunctional families learn dysfunctional behaviors in order to survive in those family dynamics. We may not be aware of the dysfunction as these patterns are "normal " to us as we grew up with them. These behaviors then create issues in relationships when we grow up and take them out of our families.


The good news is that if we learned them, we can unlearn them- that can take some work, but we can do it.

We also tend to attract people who "match " us emotionally in some ways so the better we can learn emotionally healthy behaviors, the more likely we are to attract and be attracted to people who don't match our red flags.

I also was worried I would be judged or rejected because of my FOO background. I was worried there might even be something wrong with me because of it. It even happened once- I started to date someone I liked and felt safe enough to talk about my FOO and he hit the road. Was it because of what I said? I don't know because he ghosted me, stopped talking to me. Now, I wonder if I was so attracted to him at the time, maybe he wasn't so emotionally mature himself.

I am not single, but working on myself does help my marriage. I think if I were to be single and concerned about my "red flags" I would be working on them. I can't change my past with my parents. I see no reason to allow yours to be stuck to you. It may always be a part of you, but believe in yourself that you are worthy of being loved. There is nothing wrong with you for what happened.

[zachira]

I think talking about your red flags is all about flexible boundaries. Most people do not understand about BPD or child abuse, and I find sharing my history with most people backfires on me because they don't know how to respond. When I do share with people I think will have some understanding, I try to keep what I share brief so as not to overwhelm them and only share when we have known each other for quite awhile. It is with this Board and my therapist that I share more fully.

[Harri]

I still have to think about this and your responses zachira and Notwendy but I need to clarify:

my questions pertains to more intimate relationships.  Not necessarily romantic but closer than just friends.

[zachira]

Harri,
I don't know if what I am about to say is terribly relevant. I think we often wish there was one person on Earth we could share everything about us with. I have found that there really isn't. To be healthy, we need to have boundaries with everyone, and the boundaries will be different depending on the relationship. Even with very close friends and a long time marriage, we wound not share everything about ourselves with any one person. For example, my sister and brother-in-law do not talk about prior relationships with each other. There are things I tell my therapist that I would not share with anybody else because these things are way too personal and would affect my relationship with most people. For example, if I had been sexually abused as I child, (which I wasn't), I think that would be a discussion for therapy only, and maybe some limited information to a partner. People when they get cancer, often do not tell everyone because they do not like how people start to treat them differently. Just my thoughts. Take care!

[once removed]

i tend to think of "red flags" in terms of "i shot my ex husband". "half a dozen infants have died in my care". "i am an extremely vengeful person".

we all have things about us that might give any given person pause. theyre not things inherently dangerous. they might be things that someone might judge. they might be things that someone just doesnt connect with us on. they might be things someone is inclined to bond with us over, for better or worse.

the question i hear you asking (correct me if im wrong) is "how much do i share" vs "how much do i keep to myself".

the balance we all have to walk is that the ability to be vulnerable, sharing, getting to know each other, facilitates bonding. then theres the matter of when, and how to go about it. and the result is going to be different with everyone.

using your example, i can really only speak for myself. if we met, and you disclosed "i did not have a happy childhood", id think little of it (id be curious of course). i consider it a relatively standard disclosure. most of my closest friends had brutal childhoods. a thousand different people would respond in a thousand different ways. one might press you for more details. one might be hypervigilant. one might turn around and start talking about themselves and their own childhood. one might be intrigued.

if you told me about your entire childhood in one meeting, i might find you to be someone who overshares and dominates the conversation talking about yourself. no danger there. but not a quality i tend to connect with.

on the other hand, depending on your tone and the context, i might find you closed off, reserved, too private, and hard to bond with. though again, upon a first meeting, i would tend to think of it more as an appropriate level of disclosure.

over time, if i liked you and wanted to get to know you better (either as a friend or romantically), i would obviously expect to know more about you in general. if i were a close friend or long term romantic partner, i cant imagine not knowing more about your childhood.

thats just me. of course, we are all entitled to privacy, a little mystery is good, its not feasible or practical for everyone to know everything about us or vice versa. there are plenty of things about me im either unwilling to share with most people (either ever, or not until a huge level of trust and intimacy is built), or it simply wouldnt occur to me to do so. i dont think im hard to get to know or that there are too many personal topics that are off limits.

these are very personal decisions. what we disclose or dont disclose, when and how we disclose it, all have consequences, and different people will respond favorably or unfavorably.

i do think that if this is keeping you from getting involved with people in real life, its worth examining. can you tell us more about how that is playing out?

[Harri]

Hi Notwendy and thanks for answering.

Children growing up in dysfunctional families learn dysfunctional behaviors in order to survive in those family dynamics. We may not be aware of the dysfunction as these patterns are "normal " to us as we grew up with them. These behaviors then create issues in relationships when we grow up and take them out of our families.

I like your point about how the history is not what causes problems but rather our behaviors.  Yes, I knew that but I was not thinking about it in this particular situation so thank you.  My tendency for negative thinking and fear that my history will cause people to reject me was taking over.  Thank you also for making the point that, like your former friend, if anyone ran because of my history, that is on them.  It is so hard to embrace that. 

Notwendy: 

It may always be a part of you, but believe in yourself that you are worthy of being loved. There is nothing wrong with you for what happened.

Thank you.  Working on it.   

Zachira:  thank you!     I hear you about somethings only being for therapy.  heh, there are somethings I haven't even told my therapist about yet and may never.  Not sure they matter to anyone but me.  I don't know that I want one person I could tell everything to, though I am intrigued by the idea.  Maybe on some level I do.  I would like, eventually, to have a person who I could feel comfortable telling any part of my history to, not necessarily the whole thing.  Like what I have here.  I realize this board is not intimate and not truly representative of real life but I feel safe and cared for here.  I know how much I care about the people who post here and how real that is for me, as real as it can be online. 

Thank you. 

[Harri]

Once Removed, I don't know if you meant for your first paragraph to be funny but I busted out laughing when I read it!  HAHAHA  I said in the thread that started this one that I think I am reading too much here, where red flags are talked about and I have so many of the darn things that people say to stay away from.

the question i hear you asking (correct me if im wrong) is "how much do i share" vs "how much do i keep to myself".

Yes!  Thank you for the words!

if i were a close friend or long term romantic partner, i cant imagine not knowing more about your childhood.

That is what I was thinking.  I think of how I am with other people who disclose things and I am usually glad they feel safe enough with me and I let them know that the info they share changes nothing other than to help me see them better.  (And yes, I am talking about more casual friendships here... .and probably would not be so warm and cuddly about it now! but my point is, I don't look at them badly, I just (now) think *too close too soon*.)  Sorry, just thinking out loud here.

these are very personal decisions. what we disclose or dont disclose, when and how we disclose it, all have consequences, and different people will respond favorably or unfavorably.

I guess I need to stop making this such a big deal in my own mind so I can work on what is important.

i do think that if this is keeping you from getting involved with people in real life, its worth examining. can you tell us more about how that is playing out?

Well, I've never been one with a lot of friends.  I don't think I have had any healthy relationship, with maybe the exception of one friend, ever.  I freeze.  Dissociation (just being in a fog sort of spacey, nothing too weird) was a very frequent thing and still happens on a daily basis (just for a few minutes at a time, sometimes only seconds).  Trust is not something that comes easy.  I am paranoid about being manipulated or played and I often take a very long time to figure things out so my response time is way off.  Add all that together with being very shy (until I get to know you) with a very small but growing self-worth and it adds up to me being a loner.  I like being a loner but i am lonely too.

Okay, so that is the picture.  I also have disabilities so mobility and illness is hard  and can happen very suddenly.  Like I said I never had many friends to begin with and the ones I did have were not healthy and or left once I got sick and my life changed.

How this affects me day to day?  I am alone.  I hardly go out.  The most talking I do is when I go to therapy.  Other than that I say hi to a neighbor or two when I see them I say whole sentences to the post man though and I have one friend who is 88 years old and lives 2 doors down.  I talk with her once every 2 weeks or so. 

I get nervous, extremely shy, easily aggravated (I think as a defense so I don't have to socialize... .my condo building always has 'socials'  that I never go to because "they annoy me"  Everyone here thinks I am so nice and sweet because I am always polite and always smiling... .the thing is they do not hear the internal voices

Okay... .and then there is the fact that you ask me one question and get a 3600 word answer!    

[zachira]

Harri,
For years I isolated myself and felt unworthy of having close friends and an intimate relationship with a significant other. I wondered why. I now realize I was given the message by my immediate family members that I did not deserve to be loved. Several years ago, my cousin said it best: The favorite children in the family are all married, and the scapegoats alone.
I have been doing much better with making good friends, though it is hard to trust after being so violated by my own family. It is really worth it to make friends, though at times I get hurt, and being vulnerable is a price we pay for having relationships of any kind.
Do you know if you are an introvert or an extrovert? Introverts thrive on alone time and extroverts on being with people. Introverts tend to like to have a few close friends, and some of my deepest connections are with my introverted friends, and I am an extrovert.
You are certainly worthy of love, and I am sure there are many people that would love to have you as a friend. Are you interested in having more friends and/or a significant other?
At one point, I was disabled and not able to work. I got connected to the community of people with disabilities and met some of the best people I have ever known, many of them in wheel chairs. I learned from this experience to pay more attention to those people that others tend to ignore, and less attention to those who get more attention that they really want, like the young and attractive.

[Harri]

Hi zachira.

Several years ago, my cousin said it best: The favorite children in the family are all married, and the scapegoats alone.

I never noticed it before, but lets ignore  the small sample size, my brother is married, I am not.  I have male 3 cousins I barely know but the youngest was the scapegoat and is the only single one.  The rest of the family I do not know well enough to judge.  I could be in the same room with them and I would not know it.  I am sorry the disorder is so prevalent in your family history.  My aunt, mother of the 3 male kids I mentioned, was a handful and even intimidated my mom (hence being cut out of our lives) and my other aunt (still alive but i have not seen her in decades) is currently in the state mental hospital.  I told my T as I was feeling guilty for not contacting her and she told me they do not put elderly people with dementia into mental hospitals... .she has to have more going on.  Looks like I dodged that particular bullet (I assume she is like my mom, I never really knew her).  Sorry... .total side trip there! 

I think if I were working I would be so much better.  My anxiety and dissociation got worse after I had to stop working.  It makes sense.  Before I stayed together because I had stuff to do and because I had to keep it together.  I would have panic attacks but have to get myself through them by going to the rest room and splashing water on my face and telling myself to knock it off.  It worked.   I coped, I dealt it wasn't a big deal.  No one noticed.

I think now I would be better making friends or at least be wiser in my selection but I am isolated because of both physical issues but mostly because of mental issues

Do you know if you are an introvert or an extrovert? Introverts thrive on alone time and extroverts on being with people. Introverts tend to like to have a few close friends, and some of my deepest connections are with my introverted friends, and I am an extrovert.

I am an introvert as I need alone time to recharge and would only have a few friends at a time.  I can come off as extroverted though as I am good at hiding my shyness.  When I am out I want to go home in about 2 hours. 

You are certainly worthy of love, and I am sure there are many people that would love to have you as a friend. Are you interested in having more friends and/or a significant other?

Thank you.   BTW, way to set off a mini panic attack Zachira!    Seriously my heart started pounding when I read this.  I am not interested in an SO but a friend or two would be nice. 

I am sorry to hear you were disabled.  It is so frustrating.  I know I need to work on this.  My T is trying to get me to venture out a few times a week at least.  Just to get me out.  There is a social coming up in 2 weeks here... .I suppose I can go.  Won't kill me. 

But those people really do annoy me... .

Thanks zachira!

[zachira]

So much of what you share resonates with me. I was disabled and know what it is like to be home alone, no job, in mental and physical pain. Years of physical and mental health therapies healed my physical disabilities and most of my mental anguish. For most of my life, I had chronic dissociation. Doing EMDR therapy took care of the dissociation for the most part, though I still disassociate when under extreme stress. My family is full of people who are bad parents, and lots of mental health issues, with some members dying in a mental health hospital. We are indeed the lucky ones in that we have the ability to better ourselves and have compassion for others, unlike some of our family members. Take care and keep bravely moving forward as you are doing now, and when you least expect it, things may all of sudden get a lot better.

[JNChell]

Harri, this is a great thread. I’ll be back with a post. Just need time to really think and reflect on the subject.

[Turkish]

Intimacy implies trust,  yes?

6 years and two rug rats and my ex "never really knew me" as my T said. Part of it was my introvertedness, but part of it was her. I remember her literally throwing up her hands walking out of the room saying, "I don't want to hear about that stuff!" It was something small an
About my childhood.  Not even close to what I've shared here.  What I felt was "Turkish isn't worthy of my time" despite the fact that I knew every dysfunctional thing about her and her family.

My T told me, about dating people my age,  "you're wounded; everyone has wounds."

Not to be gross (I'm a wolf), but if you can't lick each other's wounds from time to time, then what good are you to each other? What's the point of a pack,  even a pack of two? Even as friends?

[once removed]

Once Removed, I don't know if you meant for your first paragraph to be funny but I busted out laughing when I read it!  HAHAHA  I said in the thread that started this one that I think I am reading too much here, where red flags are talked about and I have so many of the darn things that people say to stay away from.

yes, more than half of that stuff is just "quirks".

i said it with a grin  , but im dead serious. i think that people should not approach getting to know others, romantically or friendly, with hypervigilance. difficult people are everywhere. we cant hide from them. we need the skills to deal and to cope; we can either be run over, or have it bounce off of us. part of that does involve spotting incompatibility, conflicting values, pushy people/boundary busters, but that stuff isnt a threat to us unless we ignore and over invest in it. do i need to "run" from someone who say, regularly drinks excessively? or should i simply not let them be my chauffeur or watch my kids?

i saw a girl who told me that people should be afraid of her, and that she likes it when they are. that if a guy slighted her, shed seduce him, take him in a back room, and castrate him. she followed it up with a story about how she bit a guys arm. i think she was trying to shock me a bit, but to me, those are red flags, and i heeded them, never saw her again. "this person is sharing way too many details with me way too soon", for example, doesnt make them a bad or dangerous person; it might suggest to me (or might not... i told my entire BPD story to a total stranger. i wasnt trying to hurt anyone) that we dont click, and ill act accordingly. if im drawn in and want to rescue them, thats purely on me.

That is what I was thinking.  I think of how I am with other people who disclose things and I am usually glad they feel safe enough with me and I let them know that the info they share changes nothing other than to help me see them better.  (And yes, I am talking about more casual friendships here... .and probably would not be so warm and cuddly about it now! but my point is, I don't look at them badly, I just (now) think *too close too soon*.)  

honesty is endearing. we all struggle. thats what makes us human. think of all the news stories of celebrities sharing their struggles with mental illness and addiction. theyre celebrated. average joes and josephines feel less alone, and their struggles normalized.

and still, some of us think "if i do the same, ill push people away, or theyll judge me, or ill be rejected, or theyll misunderstand, or... ." so, ya know. try to give yourself the same benefit of the doubt you give others.

everyone has fears, and fears are often rational responses to danger that protect us and keep us safe. for example, we all fear abandonment. human connection would probably be impaired if we didnt. but the insidious thing about fears is that they can control us, run our lives, and deny us of the things we desperately long for the most.

one thing i can clearly identify with is a fear of rejection (which again, we all have to various extents). at its best, that fear informs me to use good manners. to consider how another person might feel if i reject them or exclude them. to not set expectations too high, and myself up for failure. at its worst, that fear of rejection can drive me to preemptively reject others. to find fault within them, and hyper focus on it. to keep a distance and put up walls from otherwise safe people that can enrich my life. to interpret rejection from them where there isnt any, and respond as if there is. to identify/project my shortcomings on others. to so intensely dread a job interview that i might avoid the process entirely and miss out on a job i would love and would find fulfilling. to not approach that cute girl i fancy. to over focus on my shortcoming and minimize my good qualities. etc, etc.

i believe everyone has a lot to offer. i know that you do, im a good judge . i think deep down, a lot of people believe there is some inherent flaw in them that others can see, or will see, that makes them unloveable. i honestly believe short of things like "bad manners", that dont reflect who we are, and are easily changeable without being inauthentic, that thats nonsense.

SO, if i may offer some (general) advice... .

overcoming a lot of this stuff tends to involve exposure. push yourself out of your comfort zone. confide in someone, ask for advice or an ear. it doesnt have to be deep, but it can be; dont worry about oversharing, everyone inevitably does. you can start smaller, just ask someone for some help with something even if you think it inconveniences them. go to those socials with those annoying people. make your only goals to stay x amount of time, and try to learn something about one person. aim higher next time; learn more than one thing or more than one person, and share something. train/let yourself get excited about some aspect of it. say "im excited" out loud if it helps. i tell others all the time that although half the time we may be disappointed, frustrated, bored, whatever, there are so many variables and opportunities we cant imagine, and i still underestimate it.

i do know how debilitating and limiting disabilities can be. the internet can be wonderful in that regard. for example, i love video games, play them every day, but my friends that do play games dont play the same ones. im in a facebook group with the folks that grew up with and continue to play the games i grew up playing, and we talk about them all day. theyre hilarious, clever people with great people skills, lots of passion, and it really enriches my life. i usually dont care to talk politics with my close friends, so i started my own group, and its been built from the ground up by people ive never even met, but love talking with! find connection, even if its not in person. we dont have to share everything, but its good to have those things to share.

hope some of this is on base and workable.

[Skip]

I didn't read all the comments here, so please excuse me if I repeat what has already been said... .

I think it helps to know who we are to the outside world and present ourselves authentically. People will respect that.

I think that we should share intimate things about ourselves with others who have shared with us in time as we build intimacy and trust. Open up slowly and equally.

I think how we present ourselves in the beginning needs to be consistent with our intimate facts. It's OK not to say something, its important not to say things that when someone learns more about you would seem like you mislead or weren't truthful.

I think its important to have a style that feels open, not guarded. We can be open without divulging things prematurely.

I do think we need to disclose things reasonably upfront that might affect the person we are dealing with. If the person is a devote Jew and faith is extremely important, we should let them know in the course of conversation that we are, say an atheist.

I think it helps to say how we feel about things when we disclose them. I had a very unfortunate circumstance in my life some years back. When I finally disclose it, I make it clear (nicely) that it is just something that was thrust upon me by a stranger, I dealt with it, recovered - it doesn't define me and it is not part of my outlook on life or my feelings about the world.

I think the goal is to be authentic and have healthy boundaries around the disclosure of the intimate details of our lives, especially our insecurities.

Really good question.  

[Panda39]

Just skipping back a bit to zachira's question about introvert/extrovert... .

Do you know if you are an introvert or an extrovert? Introverts thrive on alone time and extroverts on being with people. Introverts tend to like to have a few close friends, and some of my deepest connections are with my introverted friends, and I am an extrovert.

I'm an introvert and I can now embrace that but for a long time I was uncomfortable with that.  We live in an extroverted society and I always wondered "what was wrong with me" why didn't I always want to go out and do things with people, why was it so exhausting, why would I rather be alone or just a small group of friends.  Why was I so shy? Why was that not okay?

There is a really good book about introverts that you might want to check out sometime if you haven't already... .Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain

Panda39

[JNChell]

Upon self reflection, I’ve begun to wonder about this quite a bit. Thanks for starting the conversation, Harri. Stepping outside of myself, and looking back, I’m able to see  ’s. I was as quick to attach as she was. I was as quick to have sex as she was. I was as quick to share my past as she was. I’m very reactive. I process after the fact instead of taking things in, sitting with them and coming to a calm conclusion.

I’m starting to think that we’re not all that different from our pwBPD, we’ve just chose to confront what ails us. I may be totally off base with that statement, and I’m sorry if I upset anyone with it.

I know that everyone on this board has been abused, and I’m not trying to take away from that. My childhood was horrific, but somehow I was able to reach a point of choosing to process it. Just like everyone here.

What happened to our pwBPD? Why couldn’t they make the choice that we have? Why couldn’t we convince them?

[zachira]

"Stepping outside of myself, and looking back, I’m able to see  Red Flag’s. I was as quick to attach as she was. I was as quick to have sex as she was. I was as quick to share my past as she was. I’m very reactive. I process after the fact instead of taking things in, sitting with them and coming to a calm conclusion."
JNChell,
You are describing exactly what I did with the last man I became interested in, though I did not have sex with him. I do agree that we are like our BPD in that we are at a similar level of needing a relationship. The differences in many cases are that we are capable of taking a look at ourselves, do care about our partner, and have empathy, whereas oftentimes the BPD is empty to the core, and it is all about him/her.
I am now working on doing the opposite: taking time to get to know a person first before deciding on having a relationship, having appropriate boundaries including not participating in oversharing either mine or his, and being present and responsive in the moment to what is going on instead of reacting later.
Yes, the standards for relationships have changed, and by age 30 most of the desirable partners are taken, so we have to be extra careful in choosing whom we become involved with. In the past, most people valued loyalty, and infidelity was less likely to become an easy choice. I know many happily married couples and they are committed to doing what it takes to have a great marriage, and these are people of all ages.
We clearly need to value ourselves enough to attract the right people into our lives, and this takes time. When I think about the friends and family whom I am closest to, I realize that it took a long time and lots of shared experiences to get to the point where I am comfortable in my own skin with them, and we can respectfully disagree on many things, though our core values are very similar.

[Fie]

Harri !


Your question is a really good one.

Some months ago I met someone I really like. I remember one night I was trying to sleep but I felt so stressed because I was thinking 'at one point I am going to have to tell him that I don't see my parents anymore ... and how can I explain this to someone 'normal' ? he's going to think I'm nuts ... .'

I tried to keep everything inside. During one of our meetings he made a remark about our childhood being such a careless period in our lives. I didn't really react, so he said 'right ?' Upon which I just said 'well, my childhood was not so perfect'. He immediately got that I didn't want to talk about it further, I still can see the understanding look on his face.

I did notice that he acted in a respectful way, but still I was very afraid and I thought it was not a good idea to reveal too much about myself at once (as we teach each other on here, btw, since this is supposed to be a red flag).

Thing is ... we developed romantic feelings for each other and along the way I noticed that keeping those things a 'secret' from him meant that I could not fully be myself around him. Some of the things I unfortunately got from having grown up in an unhealthy home, shimmered through quite quickly in the relationship, and I wanted to give him an explanation for it. So at least he knew it was not his fault.

He didn't judge me on it. I later asked him about it, whether he had felt like he should run or so because of it, he said no, not for a moment.

So well ... .I guess some of those things we should let them develop naturally ? I would still keep up my guards about sharing too much too soon with new people. But sometimes in order to develop something beautiful we need to dear to open up. It also encourages the other person to do the same.

Maybe it's all a question of balance ? For me, as much as I wanted to keep everything for myself, at one point (quite soon really) I felt I just couldn't. If I wanted a real connection with this person, I needed to open up. No idea if that is considered 'healthy', but it worked for me.

xxx

[Learning2Thrive]

Upon self reflection, I’ve begun to wonder about this quite a bit. Thanks for starting the conversation, Harri. Stepping outside of myself, and looking back, I’m able to see  ’s. I was as quick to attach as she was. I was as quick to have sex as she was. I was as quick to share my past as she was. I’m very reactive. I process after the fact instead of taking things in, sitting with them and coming to a calm conclusion.

Very similar thoughts here.

I’m starting to think that we’re not all that different from our pwBPD, we’ve just chose to confront what ails us. I may be totally off base with that statement, and I’m sorry if I upset anyone with it.

I know that everyone on this board has been abused, and I’m not trying to take away from that. My childhood was horrific, but somehow I was able to reach a point of choosing to process it. Just like everyone here.

Yep!

What happened to our pwBPD? Why couldn’t they make the choice that we have? Why couldn’t we convince them?

For me, over the years... .this... .the desire to figure them out and fix everyone other than myself (putting their well-being ahead of my own)... .has been my to my detriment and downfall.

Getting to the point where I simply let go of responsibility that is not mine and focus on healing myself has been painful and difficult but necessary for me to move forward on my journey to becoming healthy.

Harri, thank you for raising this question. As others have suggested, I believe the amount and depth of what you share with someone who is a healthy intimate friend will deepen over time as trust grows and the bond deepens.
 

  L2T
 

[Harri]

Well now, this thread got more attention than I thought it would.  Thank you.  I was trying to push myself without breaking and going ever so carefully... .only to find my fear is telling me lies.  My fear is making my red flags bigger than they need to be.  I know that what matters the most is how I carry my red flags (aka baggage) but getting all worried and scared keep me safe from having to reach out.  

I said I make them bigger than they need to be because one fear that may not be a lie is that once I tell a person about the sexual abuse and how long it lasted for or all the lies I believed well into adulthood, they will turn around and use it at a later date either as a rationale for making me the wrong one or using it to deflect responsibility for their part in a conflict.  Automatically I become the really messed up person.  I think it would take someone extraordinary to not do that.  To not use my past to minimize their present actions.  Arrrgh!  I would have to walk away... .from the very thing I fear but also from the very thing I long for so desperately (a friend I can hang with) - thank you once removed.    I am scared I would make excuses for them, tolerate and accept things that should not be tolerated and accepted.  I myself would ignore their red flags!       Because how can I get down on someone for having red flags because they are getting down on me for having them?  A paradox?  

******* end of babbling*******

JNChell, I am, as usual, impressed with your ability to look within and express that here.  Thank you for joining in and sharing with me.  You too L2T.  Thank you.  Fie, your real life applications really help me to see that positive stuff happens when you keep pushing through the fear and that safe people are out there.

Turkish:Not to be gross (I'm a wolf), but if you can't lick each other's wounds from time to time, then what good are you to each other? What's the point of a pack,  even a pack of two? Even as friends?[/right] Well yes, but that makes me realize I do not know what is appropriate to ask of a friend.  Is it too much to share?  Can they handle it?  Do they want to hear it?  Or what does it mean when you reach the point where they share with you and you think it is time and you start to share and they just jump in and talk about what happened to them?  Is that a signal they are not a good person to share with or are they just trying to make you feel okay about whatever it is?  It causes me to shut up.  Am I giving up too soon?  Then there is the fear of asking or probing too much.  How to let someone know it is okay to talk and share?  I think I just switched this topic to how i feel inadequate in the area of friendship.  

Once Removed:  

that stuff isnt a threat to us unless we ignore and over invest in it. do i need to "run" from someone who say, regularly drinks excessively? or should i simply not let them be my chauffeur or watch my kids?

Excellent points here.  Thanks.  It is true some of what are considered red flags or warning signs are a bit over done and exclude pretty much everyone out there.  I can't run from people who have problems nor do I want to, not really.  As you said I need to learn to cope with them and not let their problems unduly influence me or cut them out of my life completely (within reason).

Once Removed, you snuck in something kind about me.  

i believe everyone has a lot to offer. i know that you do, im a good judge . i think deep down, a lot of people believe there is some inherent flaw in them that others can see, or will see, that makes them unloveable. i honestly believe short of things like "bad manners", that dont reflect who we are, and are easily changeable without being inauthentic, that thats nonsense.

 thank you for this.   I think I am hyper-sensitive.  Yes, go ahead and say d'oh Harri.  My ex (my only ex from long ago that I am still trying to understand... .the r/s, not him) was able to tap into that and I let him.  It felt so good to have a friend who could care about me in spite of the unloveable me and I just oozed gratitude.  (this was before we got romantic).  A big part of my attraction to him was that he knew my history and did not run.  A bad reason to 'fall' for someone.  I think in turn, he was attracted to me because of my past (some twisted stuff there but he was/is damaged too).  Our wounds worked well together until they didn't.

I have more to respond to but I need to pick this up later.  Stay tuned... .

Thank you everyone for your support!  

[once removed]

I said I make them bigger than they need to be because one fear that may not be a lie is that once I tell a person about the sexual abuse and how long it lasted for or all the lies I believed well into adulthood, they will turn around and use it at a later date either as a rationale for making me the wrong one or using it to deflect responsibility for their part in a conflict.

a few points about this... .

1. obviously, that isnt cool. looking back, i used my exs mental illness (shes diagnosed bipolar) in the same way; i meant no harm in it, but it says a lot about how i viewed and treated her. not only is it an unfair and inappropriate card to play, but the idea that because someone has any "issue" that their perspective/thoughts/feelings are invalid is seriously flawed (unfortunately men do this really often, ie asking their girlfriends if they are on their period). one typically does not need to cut the person out who has done so, but it might spur me to have a conversation about it (ie "i told you this in confidence, to discredit me with it is not fair and hurtful" kinda thing) let them take it in, and, depending, i might adjust my relationship with that person a bit if they are limited in that regard, are insensitive to my needs, or break my confidence.

2. sexual abuse is a very personal matter. youre not obligated to disclose it to anyone. that is not at all to say you shouldnt disclose it, but that its a personal decision as to when and how much you disclose.

for example, while i was not sexually abused, i do have some issues around intimacy. when its appropriate (i decide), i have that conversation with my partner, and i have it in a "these are my needs" kinda way. i would expect the same of my partner. if my partner was also sexually abused, i would very much respect and appreciate them for telling me, but i dont require all the history to understand their needs and limits... .its their call. 

3. most importantly, the fact that you were sexually abused is not a  about you and i would encourage you not to view it as one or treat it as if it is. it (nor someones judgment or rejection) does not make you unloveable, bad, or flawed, and it is not something you must "confess" in order to be truly loved or accepted.

I can't run from people who have problems nor do I want to, not really.  As you said I need to learn to cope with them and not let their problems unduly influence me or cut them out of my life completely (within reason).

i believe i read Skip write that good/healthy boundaries are about having a relationship that is safe, and works. it really stuck with me.

one of my bandmates in the church praise band has an overbearing, bossy, and domineering personality style and also is prone to stirring up drama behind the scenes. tells people what to do and how to play their instruments. interrupts rehearsals for annoying stuff, argues with the praise band director, tried to get us to organize against him. the rest of the band is aware of it, and mostly ignores him. me? that personality style drives mine up a wall. ten years ago, i might have declared "this guys a narcissist (he isnt)!  !", triangulated with someone in the praise band, tried to "set him straight", etc. i watched how the praise band director dealt with him/it and learned a lot. it took one "no thanks, im going to do it my way" for him to cut it out, and we get along great.

[Fie]

It is true some of what are considered red flags or warning signs are a bit over done and exclude pretty much everyone out there.

Yes I agree with you here, this is also something I am learning at the moment. I think everyone at least has one or a few red flags  :-)

Also maybe we must make the distinction between things that happened to us when we were a kid  /  behavior we are having ourselves, as an adult.  While it 'could' be a red flag that someone was let's say raised by an alcoholic father or a BPD mum, it should not necessarily be a problem. It only becomes a 'real' red flag if it reflects in unhealthy treatment of others / ourselves, I'd say.

I can't run from people who have problems nor do I want to, not really.  As you said I need to learn to cope with them and not let their problems unduly influence me or cut them out of my life completely (within reason).

Hmm I think to some extend I actually can (and should) run from people who have (a lot of) red flags. I have a choice to be around unhealthy behavior - or not. You also have the possibility of choosing who you want to be around. You are worthy of being around good people, who are nice to you. If they have a red flag or two, doesn't really matter, as long as they are treating you well - and they'd better  ;)

[Panda39]

I can't run from people who have problems nor do I want to, not really.  As you said I need to learn to cope with them and not let their problems unduly influence me or cut them out of my life completely (within reason).

Hmm I think to some extend I actually can (and should) run from people who have (a lot of) red flags. I have a choice to be around unhealthy behavior - or not. You also have the possibility of choosing who you want to be around. You are worthy of being around good people, who are nice to you. If they have a red flag or two, doesn't really matter, as long as they are treating you well - and they'd better  ;)

I agree with Fie. Red Flags are just that Red Flags, they are something to pay attention to, but they may or may not be a factor in a friendship.  As Fie says it is about how the person treats you and how you interact with that person.  

I work with some perfectly wonderful people that I have no desire to spend my free time with simply because we don't click... .different personalities, different interests,  at different places in our lives etc... .No red flags at all.

I've gone out with some friends that IMO drink too much (triggering   for me) I still like them but stay away from situations were alcohol will be served.  I might decline "happy hour" but go to "chick flick" night... .Boundaries.

I think you also have to have an awareness/mindfulness about how you feel around a particular person too, are you trying too hard? Twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to be what they want you to be?  Are you more concerned about them, than you are about yourself? Are you able to be yourself?  Be liked just as you are?  Red Flags or not if you can't be you, then that friendship will not be honest or successful.

Then there are changing friendships, where you might have been close in the past but something has changed so your not as close, or you have bonded over something and are closer... .It's about re-assessing the friendship/relationship and adjusting accordingly.

Rejection   we all hate it, it doesn't feel good, but truely it can be a blessing.  Harri, if someone rejected you because of your past then they aren't right for you.  Not enough compassion or understanding for my friend Harri, she deserves so much better.  That person could be a insensitive boob or just someone who isn't capable of understanding something so far out of their experience, but either way this person isn't the right kind of person for you. Because your past is part of who you are.  Rejection does not mean that you are defective, rejection just means that this person doesn't see a good fit... .In the short term it stings, but in the long run you have avoided a lot of pain and heartache.

And yes friendships are built on trust and they take time to build.

That said... .If I knew about what are described here as "red flags" I wound probably not be with my partner of 8 years.

We met online, we both had come from dysfunctional co-dependent first marriages (me an alcoholic/him uBPDxw).   He was separated but not divorced  .  Our first date was 11 hours long and we completely spilled our guts and over shared  . There was flirting but nothing sexual on that first date not even a kiss good-night Boundary... .Yay me! (no flag here!). We lived in "infatuationland" for that first year and told each other we loved each other  .  

He was going through a rough 2 year divorce and I was getting angry... .his ex, his kids, and him.  Ex neglecting the kids, Parental Alienation, False Allegations of Abuse, the kids siding with their mother, the kids rejecting me, feeling like my SO wasn't standing up to his ex... .etc.   I was seriously angry... .toxic anger    I had to re-assess and adjust I really did love him and we as a couple were great together. We talked and decided that he would not talk to me about his stuff as much, I started spending less time at his place. more boundaries! I found the BPD Family and got the anger under control

We had plenty of red flags but many of them weren't issues for us. We dealt with our  

Yes, we came out of dysfunctional relationships but we learned lessons from them.
Yes, we overshared but honesty and being up front about our pasts was important to both of us and was the corner stone of our relationship from the beginning.
Yes, he was only separated, but did divorce.
Yes, we were infatuated, but it grew to be love
Yes, he had horrible things going on during the divorce but most of it was generated by his ex not him.
Yes, his kids rejected me, I realized I was trying too hard and backed off, I now have nice friendships with both of them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again I was unwilling to throw the "baby" (my SO) out with the bathwater (all the drama!).

So maybe all of this writing has gotten me to this... .It isn't if you have red flags (because we all do) it's what you do with them and how you negotiate them in a healthy way.

Whew, it sure takes me forever to get to the point some times  

Thank you for enjoying the ramblings of Panda39  

[Harri]

Everyone, thank you for all of your encouragement and support.     There is a lot here and it unfortunately is hitting some sensitive areas and my urge to run is at an all time high.  That is why i am slow to respond, but it also makes me a bit like running through mud too.  So if I miss anything, I apologize.

Skip, thank you.  I would have to quote your entire post and say yes, or oh! that's good, and wow, I never thought of it that way before... .just know that I thought and felt all of that.  You have shown me normal and healthy in a relationship.  I know what my goal looks like now.  Thank you.

Zachira, a common theme with you is the importance of valuing ourselves so we can attract others that will do the same.  I think that is a great and empowering message and I want to say thank you for sharing it here with me and everyone else.  Thank you.  I believe you will find what you are looking for. 

Fie, this is so painfully beautiful:

But sometimes in order to develop something beautiful we need to dear to open up. It also encourages the other person to do the same.

You know, I just realized that I keep expecting that whoever I try to be friends with is going to be disordered or nasty or just like former friends.  But if I am not the same why would I attract the same kind of people I did in the past?

Yes, yet another d'oh Harri moment.  Yes, I really am that slow!   

You also said: 

Hmm I think to some extend I actually can (and should) run from people who have (a lot of) red flags. I have a choice to be around unhealthy behavior - or not.

I think we might be saying the same thing.  It is the behaviors that would/should make my decision for me in terms of who I choose to become close with while the red flags may or may not turn out to have bad behaviors associated with them.  So, rather than cut them out entirely though, I would like to do what once removed, panda and Skip are saying and just have good strong boundaries and not get too close.  (I am excluding serial killers, rapists and deranged clowns of course).

Panda,

I think you also have to have an awareness/mindfulness about how you feel around a particular person too, are you trying too hard?

Thank you for this reminder. 
Rejection does not mean that you are defective, rejection just means that this person doesn't see a good fit... .In the short term it stings, but in the long run you have avoided a lot of pain and heartache. I need to remember this.  You made me smile with your fairly large list of red flags Panda!  I am glad you did not know about red flags then and I am thankful that you shared them here. 

I always love Panda wisdom!  Thank you.   

[Harri]

Once removed:  Thank you for answering that fear of mine in such a personal and caring way.

one typically does not need to cut the person out who has done so, but it might spur me to have a conversation about it (ie "i told you this in confidence, to discredit me with it is not fair and hurtful" kinda thing) let them take it in, and, depending, i might adjust my relationship with that person a bit if they are limited in that regard, are insensitive to my needs, or break my confidence.

Okay.  For me, someone doing this is a deal breaker.  I shut down, I lose trust and I never allow myself to be open like that ever again.  BUT, given everything I have learned here, I do not need to cut them out but they are not close friend material for me. 

ha!  I do believe I am getting this!

for example, while i was not sexually abused, i do have some issues around intimacy. when its appropriate (i decide), i have that conversation with my partner, and i have it in a "these are my needs" kinda way. i would expect the same of my partner. if my partner was also sexually abused, i would very much respect and appreciate them for telling me, but i dont require all the history to understand their needs and limits... .its their call.

This is so... .novel to me.  Not requiring to know the details.  And me having the right to choose to not share.  Why is this only sinking in now?  Rather than me worrying about how to tell and when to tell, I can decide!  It is not a have to sort of thing, at least not with a friend.  I think it would be important for a romantic interest to know but i am not even looking for that! 

Like Skip said:

I do think we need to disclose things reasonably upfront that might affect the person we are dealing with.

My mother sexually abusing me does not really matter for a friendship, even a close one but it sure would matter in a romantic relationship ... .but even then details... .The Details... .THE DETAILS are **not necessary** and I have a choice! 

Can you tell you are all blowing my mind?  I feel like running around screaming Freedom!

most importantly, the fact that you were sexually abused is not a  Red flag about you and i would encourage you not to view it as one or treat it as if it is. it (nor someones judgment or rejection) does not make you unloveable, bad, or flawed, and it is not something you must "confess" in order to be truly loved or accepted.

  I think I am getting there.  Layers of shame have, apparently been melting away.  I still have some but wow... .I feel so clean in comparison to how it used to be. 

Thank you.

[JNChell]

once removed is spot on with this.

3. most importantly, the fact that you were sexually abused is not a  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) about you and i would encourage you not to view it as one or treat it as if it is.

IMHO,  ’s are things that have happened that are not acknowledged or worked through, but are used to manipulate and so on. You are not that person. You are gracious, endearing and empathetic. Harri, you’re a blessing to people in need.

[Fie]

You know, I just realized that I keep expecting that whoever I try to be friends with is going to be disordered or nasty or just like former friends.  But if I am not the same why would I attract the same kind of people I did in the past?

Hmm hmm, I am in the process of realizing this myself. I seem to not be attracting BPD / NPD anymore  :-)  YAY !

And if I do encounter them (I do still think they are out there a lot) ... I run !


How are you doing Harri ?