Re: Timing..,who’s on first and where? (Part 2)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

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Hi, just checking in. The process is wretched awful. But you all already know this. I’ll ask pearlsw’s question on another board... .how on earth did you all do this without completely slipping into a depressive mode? I kinda feel numb, like I can’t feel anything. I can’t even cry. Can’t sleep. Is it antidepressant time? I hate that stuff, because it makes me tired and forgetful, from what I remember many years ago. Maybe sleep and a mental, emotional break from it will do some good. I don’t have too much time here at my parents left.

Workshops for my son all day this week, except for Friday. He’s expecting me to head home Monday, but that won’t even give me time to do laundry and pack. It’s been such a hard trip, with overwhelming tasks and family of origin emotional scapegoating to trudge through. My dad thinks all this with my husband is my fault. It’s a religious viewpoint he has, that this is happening due to some sort of sin in my life. Ugh. Emotional baggage.

Is the answer typical... .gratitude, count blessings, extra sleep, eat well, go for walks? This stinks. Thanks for letting me gripe a bit.

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

MODERATOR COMMENT:  This thread was split from and continues an earlier thread that had exceeded the maximum length:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325223.60

Hi, just checking in. The process is wretched awful. But you all already know this. I’ll ask pearlsw’s question on another board... .how on earth did you all do this without completely slipping into a depressive mode? I kinda feel numb, like I can’t feel anything. I can’t even cry. Can’t sleep. Is it antidepressant time? I hate that stuff, because it makes me tired and forgetful, from what I remember many years ago. Maybe sleep and a mental, emotional break from it will do some good. I don’t have too much time here at my parents left.

Workshops for my son all day this week, except for Friday. He’s expecting me to head home Monday, but that won’t even give me time to do laundry and pack. It’s been such a hard trip, with overwhelming tasks and family of origin emotional scapegoating to trudge through. My dad thinks all this with my husband is my fault. It’s a religious viewpoint he has, that this is happening due to some sort of sin in my life. Ugh. Emotional baggage.

Is the answer typical... .gratitude, count blessings, extra sleep, eat well, go for walks? This stinks. Thanks for letting me gripe a bit.

Dig

[Radcliff]

Yes, it is awful.  And the depression hit me as well.  It was humbling, I'm normally an eternal optimist.  The things that helped me with depression were: letting go of things I couldn't control, developing a broad support network (at least five different sources of support), and exercise.  I've been a real slacker on exercise for years, but have recently been running a couple of miles every other day, and it's making a difference.  Self care also helps, which for me was making a long-overdue doctor's appointment and doing physical therapy for an old injury.  Meditation may also be worth trying.

I'm really sorry to hear about the family guilt trip.  We know that you know that we know that you know this, but it's not your fault

If you're heading back soon, are you getting ready to put your game face on?  You're going to be reuniting with someone who is probably on high alert for changes in you, when being hyperaware is his baseline.  Work on those mental compartments, and maybe go behind a shed or something and do some method acting exercises to get in character.

Do you have a safety plan/strategy for your return trip?  Can you go through that midpoint town a day early, and find a motel with a pool to hang out at for a day an hour or so from home?

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,

It’s been emotional, and long, and tedious, going back to dig specific audio clips out of the haystack. I also figured out how to write dialogue verbatim into a form, that is used to assess Counseling internship sessions. So, going back and writing word perfect dialogue into the form is arduous. Listening over and over to a clip to get all the words right in the form... .I broke down in tears right there at the coffee shop with my headphones on. Break time. A walk in the sun, and allow myself time to grieve, for grieving is appropriate. There’s nothing anybody could do that is so bad to be treated like he treats me... .and I make his meals, keep the house and our S5 going. Whew. I am convinced, I am dealing with pure evil here. Personality disorder of an extremely covert malicious lack of empathy person.

With that said, here’s the reason and issue for this post... .scary question coming... .

At what point do I know, he is going to kill me?
I have a lot of things in my favor at the moment... .I have S5, 16 hours away from him, all the pets, and most of the joint savings. (He has the majority hidden away privately).
I have a roof over my head and help with S5 from my parents.
WHY would I go back? To prevent being labeled a flight risk and be granted supervised visitation because of it? Or is that really going to happen? (It happened to another mom I know, in the DV group)
I learned from the gift of fear book, the difference  between threats and intimidations. There are intimidations about the puppies... .IF you don’t get rid of them, Then I will move out BUT... .there are threats on my life. Veiled, but there:” you will not finish you degree. I will be responsible for the loans”. There is no IF/Them ultimatum. Simply, a matter of fact statement from him that I will not finish.

I haven’t found that recording in the haystack yet. Or the one where S5 tells me that daddy asks him to be mean to mommy.

I have to find those, right? Those are crucial? Gah, it’s so unfair, to have to prove all of this, but that’s how the legal system works. Burden of proof on the accuser.

I do want to be the accuser, I do want the ball first. I want the truth exposed and ruled on, because that’s what will keep S5 safest, right?

What will keep us both the safest?
At the moment, in my mind, that looks like filing for D, protective order maybe, maybe it will not be granted, and take us both into transitional housing at the shelter. Behind locked gates. It’s a fortress. Even with space for the vehicles inside. Leave the cats with my parents, with the automatic litter box. Bring puppies back and find a foster until I can transition into a place that allows pets.
?
Trying to prevent from being killed here... .
The level of contempt from him in the recordings, is constant and frantic. No yelling, just one “make me give an answer for myself” about something unnecessary right after the other. There’s about a sigh or breath at least or maybe 5 minutes at most between dysregulated controlling conversations.

Is it time to push the button, pick up the ball and play offense? My everything is hollering at me, YES. On the other hand, my emotions have gone dull, I can’t quite figure out the specific moves on the checkers board.

I do have a private, self- initiated psych evaluation and brain scan scheduled for myself this week. I’m tryung to be proactive here. Prevent being mislabeled and misdiagnosed by an old country doctor. Thankfully, some of the best in the country are within my reach. Secretly, without his knowing, in a major metropolitan city. It requires flights that day and leaving all the living creatures with my parents.

I have it in my mind to file the next day.
I wonder, if I take all the evidence and proof of the situation, surely that would not lead to a misdiagnosis? I do outstanding homeopathic self-care, after each traumatic injury, to prevent the real post traumatic stress disorder. It’s worked fine so far, but it’s not sustainable.
What if, since the evaluation is in one state and the events in another, will they be required to mandatory report? And if so, to whom, the FBI?
That could be an answer to prayer, get this mess elevated to a more competent and modern, less rural small town department?
That sounds like it could be a good thing.

So... can you guys play devils advocate with me? What have I mentioned before that were reasons to wait. 10 year alimony, able to file in my home state, away from the 60 mile boundary limit with shared custody, and unpaid 9 month internship. Those were the biggies.

And the illusion, that once the filing occurs, the process is over, that’s the end of the association with him... .that’s not true, and I have to remind myself. Shared parenting, unless somebody believes me about how dangerous he is. He said he would kill himself before he lost S5. One morning before I turned on the recorder. I so regret the important clips that didn’t make the recorder.

His statement... .”you will not finish”. Added to his mood, refusal to look at me, taking S5 up that tree, and his discussion of wanting to watch the 13 reasons series about suicide. In context of his previous jokes about putting my body in the air return of the house, and wanting to blow his brains out so S5 and I can have a better life... .those happened, were played for local law enforcement and NOTHING was done. They understood I wanted to protect S5 by being present in the home, with one residence.  

He also said, if you’re going to make a move, you need to go ahead and do it.
Another occasion, something’s doing to be done about this.
All in context of divorce.

Bless you all for making it this far. And for having the ability to shoulder this with me. This is a heavy circumstance. How important are those dialogue verbatims? I really want to not do that ever again.

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,
I’m sorry about the super scary questions post. Since those are truly the thoughts and concerns in the forefront of my mind, I need to push towards not going back into the home from my parents. The safety plan would be to not go back, especially since we are all safe right now.

That either looks like staying several states away from my husband, with my parents, or entering the women’s shelter with my S5, if the law demands that I return to that state because of his parental rights. The state I am in takes fatherhood quite seriously. In that they maintain the relationship at all costs, even if he is abusive. Ugh.

I am working diligently, nearly around the clock, preparing for the legal battle that is coming. And keeping up graduate school. And S5, 2 puppies, 2 cats and my parents.

It’s doable. I’m not afraid here. I’m only afraid of going back into the home. It was the compilation and history of all the incidents, seeing the escalation and continuation of his si/hi, even if it only showed up in choices of songs he chose to teach S5.

It would be foolish and unsafe to return. I am praying that all the supports will be in place. Legally, financially, physically.

Thanks everyone,
Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Some additional thoughts... .

I wish there were a way legally, if I have to return, for the law to make him leave our home, so I could have everything in need to keep the puppies and continue with homeschool plans for S5, because we have spent over $1,000 in curriculum and materials, supplies. If only. Then there’s the issue of legally forfeiting my rights to anything about thebhome and contents because I went to the shelter. That’s probably going to happen. Ugh. It’s almost like the laws are set up in that state to keep an abused spouse kept. Kept or else... .lose everything. Ugh.

Dig

[livednlearned]

Hi D&S,

I'm sorry I didn't respond right away. I'm here for you.

Your comments took me back to my own terror-filled night. I thought my ex was going to kill my son and himself. It's hard to write that sentence, and harder to relive. I am able to walk with you here, I just needed to sit myself down for a beat and gather some strength.  

I will say one thing about that night, for me. Hopefully it will be of use to you.

No one could tell me if my ex was going to kill himself, or kill then S11. No one can tell us that.

I talked to 4 law enforcement, one of them was also trained as a social worker. I talked to a friend who was a social worker. I talked to a DV hotline and a suicide hotline, trying to figure out if my ex was a threat to himself and our son. My therapist returned my call on a Sunday morning and I talked to her too. I talked to my dad.

No one could tell me what my ex would do.

Two weeks before my ex had his psychotic episode, a man walked up to his ex wife in the car pool lane at his children's elementary school and shot her in the face. She died instantly. He had learned that day that he lost custody of his kids.

A week before that, another aggrieved parent left the court house after losing custody of his kids and shot someone in a public square.

You are right to be scared. Those are not random stories in a local paper, those are situations we compare our lives to.

You've done the MOSAIC threat assessment and read Gavin de Becker's books, and your instincts are telling you to be safe, even if it means you won't necessarily be more secure.

What happened to me, something I never expected, is that I grew a titanium backbone. It happened when no one could tell me what would happen to my son, whether he could be kept safe. It was sometime after talking to my therapist, who had said about my ex "He is narcissistic. He is less likely to kill himself because what would people say... .he won't attack you at the door because what would people say."

I don't know why those comments changed things for me. I stopped being scared and I became angry. I felt furious in a way I've never felt before. No one will EVER make me feel scared for myself or my son again.  

When my ex came to the door that night he broke the custodial order and got out of his car and walked to the door, which had a side light. My son had his head down and looked awful. Ex was demanding son's passport, and looked crazy. His eyes were wild and he was holding our son's head in a strange way, like he wasn't a person. He kept trying to hug him, to try and show how much he cared about him. Except all night long he had written, "Say good bye to S11." "You will never see S11 again."

I had been scared of him for so long, and yet something snapped in me and I said, "Get in the car." Every time he spoke, I said "Get in the car." I don't know how long we did that or how many times I said it. I talked to him like he was a young child and that's exactly what he began to look like.

He eventually turned around and walked back to the car and drove away.

I did that.

I got that abusive, big, mean, cruel, threatening, alcoholic, mentally ill hulk of a man to turn around and drive away.

I don't know if my ex is less dangerous than yours. I did the MOSAIC threat assessment and my score was 8 (no military background). He never hit me, he would punch walls and close doors on me and throw things near my head and make threats. He had guns, he drank. He would hold his hand over my head and tell me he should hit me.

I'm telling you this because you will come into your own and be someone different than you are now. Maybe it is happening bit by bit for you, but it is probably stirring and will likely get stronger. Things that seem difficult now won't be difficult later. New things are going to develop that you never predicted and things you were afraid of will dissipate like they were nothing.

My ex was a former trial attorney and he nearly ruined my life post-divorce, especially financially. I was in court once a month, at least, for one thing or another. It cost me $300/hour, and it cost him nothing.

Being safe created a bubble of protection around me. He could hurt me in other ways, and he did, but he could no longer scare me like he used to.

And I won. I have full custody of my son now. I am about to get married to a wonderful man I love dearly. We are safe. I finished my graduate degree and 8 years after walking out of my failed marriage, I am close to paying off the legal debt. It feels like another lifetime ago. It took as long as it took, and I would've kept doing it forever if I had to. No one is ever going to make me feel afraid for my safety again.

I don't know if the same will happen in your situation. Courts can be terrible places with lots of bad decisions. There were many bad decisions made by my judge.

What I do sense is that you are getting stronger. The distance is giving you strength and you are making different decisions because your mind is starting to become yours again.

You are in my thoughts and prayers  

Keep posting, and keep drawing strength from wherever it's coming from.

LnL

[Dignity&Strength]

Wow, LNL,

Tears, just tears here.  Bless you, and thank you.  You DO know exactly what this feels like. I can hear it in your voice, and thank you for revisiting it with me.  I know how uncomfortable this place is.   I could not have put better words to it.  "Things that seemed important will dissipate, like they are nothing".  That's it.  That list of why waits, the fear of losing my home and living at the shelter.  Gone.  Evaporated like a vapor. I am more afraid of being RIGHT.  If I am RIGHT, and have interpreted the pieces correctly, nothing else matters.

Strangely, this overwhelming "knowing" has come about since being away from him, and here in safety at my parents.  The process of compiling the evidence, seeing it all escalate over the past several years, all in one place... .comparing it to the mosaic and the gift of fear... .along with being safe. 

I recall feeling this way each time I am home, the fear and agony over having to re-enter that level of hell. Only this time, more has happened, involving S5. The 15 foot tree, plus the ditch with the snakes, plus preventing him from taking his medicine for an ear infection one night, S5 telling me over and over, ":)addy says he needs me to be mean to you", ":)addy says he will spank me if I pet the puppies", and the ellipse day from last year, how I had to physically sit in the floor and hold S4 to prevent daddy from taking him out in it without eye protection. Goodness.  The recordings of these are like needles in haystacks. 

I am diligently trying to find them in the files.  Listening and listening, skipping and re-choosing.  There are some clues of dates and events, that I used to label the files as I unloaded them from the recorder and onto my laptop, but they have not been enough to find it yet.

Thanks, LNL.  Tomorrow is my big psych eval long day of flights and adventure. I'm hoping to find those last recording gems before my flight at dawn.  I am praying that no matter what happens, it will be ok. 

Oh, and I agree about the social times we are living in, and the real risk.  A few weeks ago, a woman, her new husband, and a houseguest were all shot to death by the woman's ex-husband.  It turns out, the woman had gone to court to try to get a restraining order twice, and was denied twice, by the same judge.  It is a broken, broken, system, ruled by some broken people making bad decisions. 

Rumor has is, in my decent sized town, that one of the 3 judges was "taken to the cleaners" by his ex-wife recently, so any female accusations of their husband will fall on deaf ears, and as an added bonus, the judge has passed down rulings in family court aimed at enabling the male abuser and punishing the mom/wife.  Just because he can and it makes himself feel better about what happened recently to him. Yuck.  So unprofessional and not decent.

I know 3 ladies who have had their children taken away, put in the care of social services, because they did not leave their abuser before the abuser totally lost it.  And who gets unsupervised parental visitation? The male batterer. Mom visitation is supervised, because she has exhibited, "lack of mental reasoning" by staying any length of time. 

All these scenarios make up the ingredients to a "possibility stew", that I fear will leave myself and S5 much worse off than we are now.  Icky possibility stew.  I don't see much edible in it right now.  But I'm still cooking it.

Dig

[livednlearned]

When the marriage is dangerous, the window of problem-solving becomes much smaller. I think that's the hardest part of all this. We have the ability to solve the whole problem, but the danger eats away at all the things we know make sense.

It makes sense to move back to the marital home and have him move out.
It makes sense to wait until the 10 year mark for the alimony.
It makes sense to wait and see what the best move is, legally.

And unfortunately none of that is safe.

So you can only work with what you have, under a deadline. You can only hope your ex is a bully and not something worse.

My ex and I lived in a county known for having good ol' boys. My L said to me, If you can move into the next county, your experience will be more professional."

It was a bigger county with more serious issues, and so that's what I did.

So much comes down to the judge, who is assigned, as you know. I do think there are small decisions you can make, that you do have control over, that can be done strategically. Like getting a psych eval done ahead of time in a better city with more professional practitioners.

Shine light on anything you can. A deposition might help you -- we did one in my case and my L is certain that I was such a credible witness that opposing L abruptly changed his strategy to be less aggressive. He didn't want to be seen attacking me when I was so calm and organized and sensible.

A deposition or psych eval or custody evaluation can also bring new things to light that may even outshine the evidence you have. A trained professional may find it alarming to hear a father put his handicapped child in situations of danger, but it could be even more enlightening to hear that father describe how there is nothing wrong with his kid handling poisonous snakes.

That's what the deposition did in my case. My ex was so disordered he couldn't tell what was normal or not normal to say, and contradicted himself, then clarified things by making them even worse.

I guess what I'm saying is that your L has some tools in his toolbox that can shine light on your situation, so if your light at times seem dim, know that there are some other sources of light available.

It does cost money. It is better to be broke than living in fear

[Radcliff]

Dig,

Hang in there.  I'm sorry for all the tough decisions you have to make.  Once you experience safety, it becomes hard to give it up, doesn't it?

Good luck sifting through the audio.  I'm sorry it's such hard work.  I imagine it would be excruciating to do transcripts.  That can be left for later.  I'd focus on sifting, and then titling the gems appropriately, and writing up a short summary for each one that says what happened briefly and at what time in the recording the important parts are.  Annotation rather than transcribing.  It's faster, and helps you move along.  In the end, only a handful of key recordings are likely to be used.  Better to find them and move quicker.

Remember, your evidence is just as important to convince you than to convince others.  It will give you confidence to do the things you need to do, and to bear witness to others with confidence. 

Regarding the items in the house, are you able to ask the police for a "civil standby" where they accompany you to the house to collect things?  Can you bring an army of ladies from your DV group and a bunch of boxes and minivans/trucks?

I am particularly sorry that you have had to live under such threats and have had your humanity stripped away by evil words.  Someday, hopefully not too long from now, you will find yourself surrounded only by loving and caring words.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Thank you, LNL, and WW.

I’m going to try to take a break from it all today and tomorrow, find joy in the blessings I have right this minute.

The attorney has not called me or emailed me back yet. That’s worrying me some, but it is nearing the end of summer vacation for students, and he may be out of town with family. I hate to head back into all the chaos without hearing from him. One day at a time.

Dig.

[livednlearned]

If he does not have professional staff to field calls and explain his whereabouts, that would concern me.

My L started off her consultation with me explaining how long i could expect to wait after sending an email. She always had her office contact me in advance to let me know when she was not going to be available, whether for vacation or a long case (trial), and how things would be handled in her absence.

Your L owes you at the very least a heads up about how he works when it comes to his caseload.

My attorney also knew her limit. She referred clients elsewhere when she was at capacity.

You can ask your L how he handles his case load, or at least ask him how busy he is, and how much of a priority you will be for him.

I'm glad you're taking a day off to restore your strength and enjoy the good bits 

[Radcliff]

My lawyer gets back to me in a couple of days, a day, or half a day, depending on the urgency (we've got court actions so that gives some urgency sometimes).  Three days at most for low priority stuff.
 She doesn't always give me the attention I want, but without fail, she gives me the time I need.  As I worked with her periodically in the year prior to my restraining order, her communication reliability was one of the things that built the most trust.  She is a partner in a small firm with one other partner, three associates, two paralegals, and a secretary.  She handles most of my work, the paralegal is the one I talk to the next most, and the associate is only backup.  I've been really happy with this small firm model -- to me, it's the "just right" Goldilocks midpoint between a cold, impersonal huge firm and an overworked solo operator.

But, don't let us worry you unnecessarily.  If you're happy with him in other regards, and fully trust his ability, that's important.  How long have you been waiting to hear from him?

One day at a time is the only way to manage in these circumstances.  Sometimes a half a day at a time!

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

I remembered today, my attorney mentioned something about being in the national guard. I looked online at the faq’s which said, there’s a 2 week paid training for them every summer. And Facebook shows current training excercise status updates on the National Guard site. I’m thinking, that’s what this is. He did not seem like he took the case only to disappear. He is the only one I’ve talked to who did not talk down to me. He understands the mentality we’re dealing with and my sons needs. He’s the right attorney. Just bad timing of my return to home from my parents.

I am somewhat concerned about what constitutes “reckless endangerment” of a child. If I go back home, and actually go back to our home instead of the women’s shelter... .I don’t think I can leave S5 alone with my husband at all. Not even to go to the grocery store. I think I could be charged with reckless endangerment if I did. The women’s group knows about incidents as they happen because we stay in touch. But the leader is a mandatory reporter. If I go back home instead of the shelter, she has a decision to make. It could change our lives forever. I may have to go back, stay quiet, with fierce safety planning and boundaries, to never leave the house without S5. If I can’t take him, I don’t go.

 I was looking at what kinds of incidents fell in that category. I’m not sure, how that tree incident would rate. Potential for bodily injury? Sure thing. That’s why I was so frantic to get us out of there that night.

I found a recording of my preventing my husband from taking S5 in the attic, Temp 100 at noon that day. But I prevented it. So he can’t be charged with something he didn’t actually do. But he says he’s done it before, on the recording. I don’t have dates and times and temperatures for those, because I don’t know when it happened.

And about the tree incident... .I didn’t prevent that. I positioned myself at the base and was ready to move quickly to catch S5 if he fell. I took photos and videos as it happened. I don’t think I could have stopped him. But I’m thinking that could make me guilty, because I was there and couldn’t stop him? I could press charges against him for the tree thing. But I’d possibly implicate myself in some way because of the evidence I got while it happened? So hard to know what to do. There’s a year statute of limitations here.

Things that are unclear now, I think, from what you all have told me, clear up, disappear, shift, or find a way. Dialogues change. Some things stay, some things drop.

Looking through photos for evidence, I am sad that our family is so broken. How broken it has been since the very beginning. We have everything material, but this character and personality covert evil meanness... .? That’s not bringing me or S5 any joy, stability, security. What does uBPDh/narcissist/sociopath get out of it?  Power? Joy at making me suffer? Seems that way.

The women’s group has some pretty good boundaries. We do not help each other movemthings or visit each other’s homes. Puts too many of us at risk in one fail swoop. And neighbors... .the “flying monkey” tell your spouse everything that went on while they were away... .that’s dangerous. So no physical help. Must hire professionals.

Dig

[Radcliff]

Dig,

The days where I was assembling evidence and preparing to take action with a restraining order were probably the most stressful of my life.  I had been reviewing the traumatic evidence, and essentially was leading a secret life for a couple of weeks with my lawyer.  My wife could tell I was anxious, and doubled down on control and gaslighting, which made me more anxious.  I had a heightened sense of danger, probably too high in my case.  I know this is a tremendously difficult time for you.  It is not easy to keep your bearings and remain calm.  Are you able to talk to your women's group friends on the phone and ask them to think things through with you?

One place where I think you may be more concerned than necessary is your exposure to neglect charges.  I completely get the unfair situation with respect to mothers on the receiving end of DV.  But while we believe your assessment of your husband's controlling nature, what objective evidence is there that is visible to outsiders that your son is in danger?  You've mentioned the tree incident, but you've said it was 50 ft in one place and 15 ft in another.  Can you tell us which is closer to accurate?  15 ft is not a height that would get anyone in trouble.  Likewise, a 100 degree attic with no harm to the child does not seem like it would put you at risk.  I would take a 5 year old into a 100 degree attic for a short period.  I do understand your concern.  When I was first coming forward, I was cautious about mandatory reporting.  I had some notes of assaults by my wife against me that the children had witnessed and I knew that might cross a "duty to care" line.  It is possible to discuss some hypotheticals with mandatory reporters like your group leader to get yourself calibrated.

I hope it doesn't feel invalidating for me to be asking you about the tree and the attic.  I know as a survivor of covert abuse how critical it is to be believed (not being believed was a near-crippling fear of mine).  But if your claims of child endangerment sound overblown to outside observers, it's going to risk your credibility on some of your husband's scary and controlling behaviors.  Your lawyer may be an excellent one to ask about this.  If he believes that a particular incident is not neglectful, it is likely best to let it go and not assert it when you give evidence.

What kind of communication have you been having with your husband?  Is he OK with you being away?  If you decide to go back, can you engineer a happy reunion?

How is your anxiety doing?  :)o you think you can remain calm enough to avoid tipping your husband off that your head has been busy on DV matters for the last weeks?

WW

[livednlearned]

D&S,

It sounds like you are trying to gather enough evidence to get an emergency custody order in place. Is that correct?

If so, then you are trying to meet the minimum requirements for getting that order granted?

Or, has your L given you a sense of how likely it would be to have the emergency order granted? Meaning, "in our county, x percent of these cases are granted and the variables seem to be xyz."

And if so, then how long before you would have the more substantive hearing (can be anywhere from 2 weeks to months and months, depending on where you live).

Is that the plan that you're working on?

[ForeverDad]

As for you not stopping the tree incident, you can explain that your concerns, knowledge and awareness of what is "actionable" has been a learning process.  If you didn't act before it was due to lack of information or knowing what to do "in the moment".  We've all faced those unexpected issues - do I or don't I? - since we were caught off guard.  Don't convict yourself as Guilty, in the moment you just weren't sure what to do.  However, you have learned from those times you were caught off guard.  However, he hasn't. That's crucial.  So don't sell yourself short!

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,
Thanks Forever Dad, you’re right about not knowing what to do in the moment.
LNL, that’s exactly what I’m working on. Enough evidence to be granted emergency temporary custody. But I haven’t any clue how much it will take. From what I gather, it has to be indisputable, involving alcohol or substance abuse. This mental health antisocial covert narcissistic kind of abuser is not really on the radar in my area. Loud mean addicts, yes, they can handle that. This is different.

So my advocate at the women’s shelter got a release from me today to go by the attorneys office and ask about my case... .is he out with military duty, on vacation, etc.

She was told he was swamped with the military duty, finishing a capital murder trial, and a few other smaller clients. He may not be able to help me right away. Sigh. But I do believe in my heart, he and his staff are the absolute right fit for me and my son, and what my dad can afford. He is smart, kind, and calming to me. I am praying I don’t get a call tomorrow with news he decided he’s too busy and needs to pass on my case.

WW, I’m sure you can hear it, my anxiety level is like the thermostat... .rising. For good reason, not only something created in my mind. I find myself forgetting to breathe. I have to take a breath, close my eyes and remind myself to calm down, stay present in this moment, where I am safe. Not allowing fear of the future situations rob me of my peace in this one.

So... .I’m up to laundry, packing, schoolwork, and finishing up at my parents. Internship plans for next year, self defense individual session, puppies and cats to make arrangements  for. (I may need to give the puppies away, find a safe foster home for them) Job interview to possibly work part time online, with flexibility. And still finishing up the psychiatric evaluation paperwork, being sure to email proof of actual threat of harm to my life to my file. Lots of pots to fill and keep stirred.

One small step at a time. Slow but steady wins the race. I suppose, as Gavin de Becker writes, my intuition will tell me precisely when I am in imminent danger. I’m keeping my finger on the pulse of his moods, phone call logs, etc. For now, he is mostly silent. Doesn’t call unless he wants to make me explain something in the checkbook register. In fact, his call logs are quiet too. He says he’s been painting water sealant on our wood fence, with a cup and a paint brush, by hand. In the heat.  He seems to be contemplating or ruminating. Hard to tell what’s in his intentions.

My fears of my advocate at the women’s shelter having to mandatory report me for endangering S5 by going back there are somewhat soothed. She wanted answers about the attorney, and why I wasn’t being helped. So I gave her the release she asked for. She knows, I don’t have much choice but to safety plan and go back in it. So she’s not going to make calls, as long as I don’t let S5 out of my sight. No solo errands to town. S5 goes or I don’t.

Thanks everyone,
Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Ah! I just remembered, a detail WW asked about... .the height of that tree. When it first happened, on the late afternoon of Sunday May 20, I didn’t know how high the tree was exactly. I knew it was really really high and unsafe though. I guessed, 50 feet? 30? But I still didn’t know for sure. So, Monday morning, after breakfast, I asked my husband to measure it. I told him I’d help measure. But that I wanted to know exactly how high, I wanted  to know for sure. So, he eventually relented and helped measure. At the point he was holding the tape measure, I took my cell phone out to take a picture of the measureing tape number. He really really didn’t want me to take that picture. I told him it was for s5’s memories. It was 15 feet. Not nearly as high a number as I originally  guessed, but still almost twice as tall as the roof of the house. That height, while not 50 feet, is still unacceptable. The height is taller than playground equipment regulations.and the ground  below does not meet safety standards for playground regulations.’

So, 15 feet, not 50.

On another note, the attorney bowed out of my case today. He said when he first met with me, his case load was much lighter. He’s got some huge, serious criminal trials on his plate.

So, on to find a new attorney, and keep moving forward.

Dig

[Radcliff]

Dig,

Thanks for the updates.  I understand about the anxiety -- by no means did I mean to imply that it's not for a real reason, sorry if I was sloppy with my language.  What you are doing is essentially operating behind enemy lines.  The anxiety and fear are warranted, but keeping them from affecting your tactical abilities is an important and difficult challenge.

Thanks for answering the question about the tree.  15 ft is too tall for your son, but as you say, plenty of folks won't be impressed.  Except for the context part.  I found that the opinions of lawyers and psychologists and DV advocates were helpful in giving me a reality check on the level of badness of various behaviors.  Sometimes they were more alarmed than I expected, sometimes less.

Looking back at your other posts, I was reading about your husband calling you to account for your actions with contempt in his voice.  Audio or video of an abuser displaying contempt can be very powerful.  It's direct evidence that the person is operating outside the norms of accepted behavior.  It takes you out of the loop and makes the listener a direct witness to what is going on.  Have you played this audio for anyone else?  Play it soon for your next lawyer. 

I'm sorry to hear about the lawyer but then again, it's good to know now.  I didn't have a good feeling when you said, "capital murder trial."  It would seem to indicate that he's one of the more experienced lawyers around, but he's not a family law specialist and his capital murder client would have taken priority over you.  Are family law specialists with experience working with DV survivors a possibility in your area?

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,

So much develops so quickly, it's hard to know where to begin... .

1) Expecting a call from a new attorney tomorrow... .maybe he'll call, maybe not.  If he calls, will he talk to me in person? If so, will he help me decide to file ex-parte tomorrow? I'm not sure how I feel about that, it feels really hasty, perhaps necessary, likely to land me in HOT water later. Where is it best to start my story with him? Did I scare the last one off with the detailed evidence of threats of harm to my life? Where should I begin, how much do I tell him, and how soon?  I can't afford to lose another one who could help me.  I have a friend who used to work for attorneys, who said, (basically) "these men like power, they like to feel like they are in control; if you give them whole folders of evidence, all explained out and organized, they won't think you need them. It will scare them off about you"  I don't know.  Maybe that makes sense.  What do you all think?

Also, another friend here thinks it would be a good idea to ask the previous attorney to pass his notes to the new one... .that maybe I will not have to earn credibility with a new one from scratch.  I am hesitant to ask that of him... .especially since he wouldn't even have his assistant return my call, to the point I had to sign a release for the shelter advocate to find out why... .

2) Supposed to be packing to return home tomorrow, headed out on Tuesday, barring a miracle.  Issues, the 2 foster puppies... .to bring them back, or surrender them to the pound before I leave? Husband is threatening to move out and file for divorce if I come back with them. I am leaving the cats with my parents.  S5 is really sad about that.  It is the only way I can protect them.  If I bring the puppies back, there is a chance he will do something to them... .although I did microchip them, and I will not tell him that.  

I will also hide where S5 and I really are, along the route home.  I have prepaid gas cards, and will pay for the hotel a different way besides our checking.  I will tell him a different route, a different city, than where we actually are, due to his buddy (that mailed the veiled threat to the house) lives along the most convenient route.

3) Checking in with husband, he is angry, livid, scary.  He is in total denial, blame shifting, and falsifying accounts of incidents.  It seems he is setting me up, if I return, to be falsely accused.  It seems I may need video recorders installed, to be safe.  He has learned, audio recordings only do not prove anything.  He can say false things that I am doing, and I really am not.  Also, I can say he is shoving, pushing me, but without the video, he will deny.  He denies any and all physical incidents, says that I am making them up out of anger and irrational, hysterical behavior.  UGH.  Explanation of why under #5.

He got really quiet when I told him I am leaving the cats here, to bring back home with me the next trip, in October.  I take his silence as a clue, he might not have planned on letting me return.  He may have plans to file for divorce before then.  He was super quiet, for a long time.  The silence really spoke to my intuition.

He is demanding that I bring a cashier's check for the 2/3 of the savings I had wired there a few weeks ago.  The day he was threatening to take all of my access to money away, and only give me an allowance... .I got on the phone with our bank.   They said they couldn't stop him, but they could wire some money to me, if I had a bank here, if they did it before he got to the bank, before he took the money.  So, I quickly decided, and had them wire 2/3 of the savings to my old account here.  

He says, if I do not bring it back, he will have to "do what he has to do".  But good grief... .he is still threatening to take away all my access to funds.  So I do not want to do that.  I am afraid of taking S5 back into that.  Ingredients for an escalated incident, right there.

4) Checking in with my advocate at the women's shelter... .she's afraid for me,wants me to go straight to the shelter, not to my home at all.  I don't think that's possible... .I'd have the 2 puppies, they don't take puppies.  My husband will likely dispose of them.  I've paid too much for their care, with my own little scraped up money. Not to mention s5 is fairly attached to them, since he helped me bottle feed them.

My advocate is also a mandatory reporter... .I'd like to know, from an attorney, if the dangerous parenting incidents rise to the level of child endangerment.  If they do, I cannot leave S5 alone with him AT ALL.  My advocate at the women's shelter knows about the tree incident, and the day of the solar eclipse, when I had to hold onto S5 to prevent him from being taken out there.  It feels like I  am walking a fine line with her.  I let her track down the attorney last week, with a signed release for them to talk to her, just so she'd really understand, I don't have anybody to help me know if it is time to leave or not, to advise me about legalities of leaving the home, belongings, or to represent me.  I think she is ok to not mandatory report me, if I go back to the house.  

5) I made a mistake a few days ago.  HUGE.  Totally an accident.  Bottom line, my husband has a voicemail recording of me upset, angry, fussing at s5, and spanking him.  Spanking him is something I DON'T do.  I am the peaceful parent.  I have not spanked him more than a handful of times, and never really hard.  It happened when I was upstairs on the phone with the attorney.  Before I got on the phone, I arranged for my parents to stay downstairs with S5.  I told S5 he HAD to stay down there, to not come upstairs for any reason, that it was important.  I told him he would get in trouble if he disobeyed.  He did it anyway.  Came upstairs insisting I change the movie in the dvd player while I was on the phone with the attorney.  It was enough that I had to hang up to deal with s5.  After I hung up, my phone screen was still unlocked, and left on the Favorites contact list.  My husbands number is on that screen.  Before the 5 seconds passed for my phone to automatically lock, My thumb accidentally tapped the screen while I was fussing at S5.  It dialed my husband's voicemail, of all things.  He now has a 30 second recording, that I accidentally gave him, of me really upset with S5.  Geez.  I really really did make a mistake there.  

This is what my husband says he will use, if I call the police on him again.  He will tell them, he didn't really touch me, or shove, or whatever, that I got angry, irrational, and called them out of hysteria.  SO... .it seems, without video recorders in the house, I am not safe from being disbelieved, or falsely accused myself.  He has 2 buddies that have been through divorces, who were also horribly abusive to their wives.  Its a school of thought, a way of life, it seems, in his social circle, to dominate women.

That about covers it... .for now... .
Decisions I don't know if I have the means to make,
Options that may or may not be legally necessary,
It is SO confusing.  
I am trying to learn to expand my emotional capacity for "not knowing", to be ok with where the process is.  Breathe.  As long as there is air to breathe, I will be ok.  No matter what happens, there is still air.

Dig.

[GaGrl]

To me this sounds as if you need to make some priority decisions, fast. Some will not be your top preference - thus the priority sett I g.

1) Safety.  This is the top priority. If you don't intuition ( and please trust your intuition) that you and your son will be safe, to to the DV shelter.

2) Route home. You are doing the right thing in avoiding known routes and the financial trail.

3) Savings. You need to hang onto funds. You will need them.

4) Animals. As much as your heart is tied to the animals, you may need to where red the pets. If you got the faster puppies from an rescue organization, give them back and explain the side circumstances u see which you are operating. They will be grateful for what you have done so far.

You and your son take priority over all else at the moment.

[Radcliff]

Dig,

I'm sorry you've got so much on your mind.  I like'd Gagrl's suggestion.  Can you call the foster organization and arrange to hand the puppies over on the day you arrive back, so they never come back to the house?  That would help you focus on just protecting yourself and your son, and avoid the possibility that threats to the puppies, or simply your fear for their safety could distract you or be used to manipulate you.

Completely forget about that voice mail recording now.  It doesn't matter for now.  Anything he says about it, ignore him.  Court stuff is in a totally separate "future bucket" from staying safe and sane in the here and now.

I would inform the DV advocate of your travel timing, and intended arrival home.  Just outside of town, I'd let her know you're about to go home.  Arrange a bed check with her and a wake up check.  You should have contact with local folks multiple times per day.  Consider planning in advance for someone to call the police to go to your house for a "wellness check," insisting that the police lay eyes on you and not take your husband's word for it, if you are not regularly contacting them (in other words, help comes if you fail to check in, not if you call for help).

For the lawyer, rather than worrying about bending to satisfy a fragile ego, better to find a man or woman who respects you, who you trust, and who communicates well with you.  I know in your area the options may be limited.  You probably have already considered expanding your search to the next larger towns, but if you haven't done that yet, it's worth considering.

As soon as you are able, let us know how you are.

Safe travels,

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi Gagrl, WW,

I will have to find a foster/rescue place to take the puppies.  It is a long story, but they didn't actually come from one of those.  I have a friend who fosters everything living, including children.  She has a friend who is a social worker.  The social worker has a homeless woman on her case load.  The homeless woman owned a pregnant dog.  The pregnant dog had breast cancer, and died giving birth to her litter.  So,  my friend who fosters everything, helped her friend the social worker.  There were 4 puppies in the litter.  She bottle fed 2 and S5 and I bottle fed the other 2.  So... .there wasn't an organization backing the puppies... .only a social worker and her private connections.  I will contact some local organizations tomorrow, and explain, hopefully, somebody will help me.  The county shelter there was overcrowded enough that they stopped taking in any animals, for a whole month this summer.  So the area in overrun with new kittens and puppies.  It was a spay/neuter fail kind of spring there I guess.  But I will call who I can find, explain, and ask.  Especially my friend who got me into this. She's fostering more puppies... .The homeless woman who lost her dog keep the other 2 puppies.

My intuition says, don't go back.  There is a level of hatred in his voice, a coldness that is much different than before.  It has been there the past 2 times I've talked with him on the phone, yesterday and today.  It was enough to make me sick to my stomach.  This is something nobody could tell by listening, because it is only a tone of voice difference,  but he was absolutely apathetic, unemotional, solidly mean.

I will sleep on it tonight, pray for answers from a new attorney tomorrow, and I'll update tomorrow night.
Dig.

[Radcliff]

A pregnant dog with breast cancer, and the puppies find you!  Dig, you are just a magnet for trouble! 

Wherever you go, you need to be able to sleep at night.  If you can't go to sleep, the situation is not sustainable.  I'm not trying to affect your assessment of the situation or worry you more -- we know a lot less than you, so your judgment rules.  But that seems like a good question to ask.

WW

[livednlearned]

I will sleep on it tonight, pray for answers from a new attorney tomorrow, and I'll update tomorrow night.

I hope you find a guardian angel in this new lawyer. And consider contacting other lawyers just so your H cannot, a strategy that others here have recommended. Especially attorneys known to be aggressive.

I put myself in your shoes, and I would want a 90+ percent chance that my emergency order would be granted. If your attorney says it's 50/50, that would feel too low. At 75 percent, I would feel beside myself with indecision.

I'm praying for you, D&S. I wish I could sit with you in those L meetings and take notes, anything to help carry a little of this load for you.

 

LnL

[Dignity&Strength]

Thank you, LNL, those percentages are a big help. Decision making is not my forte, really... .thank you for the input, those numbers make sense. The only caveat to those in my mind are taking into account what happens if he files first under irreconcilable differences. I’m in a state that would make me the defendant. If I could see it coming that he would file first, I almost certainly think I should try to beat him to it. I’d want the ball first, no matter the chances. Or am I missing something?

Yes, I wish I had somebody more knowledgeable, who had been here before with me. But, having someone to keep S5, so I’m not trying to listen, take notes and parent is a huge help. I have a friend or 2 I can ask for help with that.

My dad bought a wireless pet fence with collars for the puppies. So no more tether to the carport. It’s a cool, breezy shady spot by the river anyway, only now, he won’t have to walk them. There are 2 ladies here looking into their foster contacts  for me, but no answer yet.

I got a call from the fancy brain health/psychology office in the big city, that I have to pass through; they had an opening for follow up this week, so when I get back, I will have completed an entire independent psychiatric evaluation, complete with photos of my actual brain activity. It’s amazinng science. I’m thankful I won’t have to figure it how to get back there for the follow up later in the fall. It’ll be done by the end of the week, known only to myself, my parents and my support folks.

My DV advocate and the shelter know I am coming. I text check in with her personally at night, and after I’ve gotten there, and when I can get a minute was from him, to let her know the “temperature” of the situation.

We FaceTimed with my husband yesterday, to see the house, really. I wanted to find out how much he had done while we are gone... .such as, did he move out? Did he get a new vehicle that is safe for s5’s car seat? No in both cases. I am thinking ahead as far as not letting S5 be taken with my husband, while there’s no custody agreement in place. He could legally take him out of state to his parents, file false allegations against me, and be awarded emergency temporary custody too. I wouldn’t be able to protect S5 at all then.
So I’m mindful of the van keys. And my husband’s movements. Paranoid, yes, but protective, yes that too.

New attorney appointment early Friday morning. Even knowing the risk above, I’ll have no house but to leave S5 with him. After the 2 of them being apart most all summer, I can’t reasonably take S5 grocery shopping or errands, with it my husband’s off day Friday. It’s a risk that I’ll have to take if that’s my only option.

I am still keeping travel plans misdirected for my husband, yet known to my support system. I should be back in the home Thursday evening. Husband will more than likely be there. As always, I’ll keep intuition dialed up, safety plan ready to go, and supports informed.

Have a good week everyone, and thanks so much for everything.
Dig

[ForeverDad]

In general people who have a joint account together agree that either can withdraw from the account, no limit specified, that's what joint means.  Okay, so you took 2/3 when "fair" would have been 1/2.  Whoopdeedoo.  If he's the income earner, then he can make that up quickly.  It's not like it would be a hardship for him.  And yes, usually at the end of a divorce they address the financial aspects but odds are neither lawyer will push to demand an accounting from so long ago, probably can't because it before there was even a divorce started.

So do you give in to the demand?  You don't have to, what you did was legal.  Would it help, would he all of a sudden be nice and normal with him in control of the money again?  If you're in DV assistance, probably you should hold on to it.  After all, you can document you didn't squander it.  I worry gifting it back to the account gifts him control all over again.  Can you always phrase it as "safekeeping so you always have some reserves"?

[Radcliff]

Dig,

Thanks for the update.  Safe travels!  Check in when you can.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi all, quick update, S5 and I are tucked in for the night, and my parents know where we are. On the phone this afternoon, My husband asked if I was coming home with a cashiers check for the amount of savings I wired myself a few weeks ago. (It was 2/3, a fraction once mentioned to me by an attorney) I told him that I had it with me, and asked him if intends to keep threatening me with taking away all access to money, so that I couldn’t buy gas, groceries, etc. I told  him I needed a yes or no answer. He said he could not say yes or no. So... .I’ll think through that issue while driving tomorrow. I don’t have the cashiers check with me. I did transfer it from a private local bank at my parents town  to one more accessible in both places. So I can get to the cashiers check. If I decide to do that. I’ll know more after the new attorney appointment on Friday.
I will update when I can. Goodnight all,

Dig.

[Radcliff]

Good to hear from you.  Under what realistic circumstance would you hand the money over? 

Stay in touch,

WW