PBDxh undermining my parenting

[1hopefulhuman]

Help!
I had a rare lunch with my BPDxh and 7 year son last Saturday. During the lunch my son got grumpy and said "I hate you, you're stupid mommy". I gave our son a consequence and when I left lunch my ex did not follow though. He undermined and triggered a VERY important RESPECT boundry for me. As you can imagine respect is touchy subject for a recovering non-BPD. I lost my mind and need help / support on how to deal with future incidents.

My son has only tried this language with me ONE other time last Wednesday at pickup from ex.
- Both times he had both parents with him (rare) he never uses this language when he's just under my care.
- Both times I calmly told him we don't speak like that to anyone and the consequence for this behavior is no screen time for that day. Last wed worked out great because I took him home and lovingly enforeced the consequence.

On Saturday, after I delivered the consequence, my ex said you look agitated why don't you get a massage and gifted me $ for one. I said thank you, drove away and texted him to "please be consitant with my consequence of no screen time." He responded yes, then proceeded to explain he 'negotiated' 5 min of screen time with our son IMMEDIATLY after I left! I told him there's no negotiating how our son speaks to his mother or anyone else! This tells our son its OK to speak to his mother like that AND that my consequences have no power. My ex made excuse after excuse why he did it. Then I tried to have a calm call to explain how I felt and he gaslighted me by calmly interprupting my opening sentence, and not letting me explain how this hurts me (crazy making) ... .he refused to listen or validate my feelings and instead he purposly decided to play good cop / bad cop.

This triggered me SO HARD! It brought up ALL the times my BPDxh devalued me with verbal abuse in front of our son. So then I hit a low point I haven't been to in many months - and texted to him for two days how awful he was, he needs help for BPD, lacks basic kindess or respect for others, is a bad influence on our son... .I went off emotionally and my cortisol levels went through the roof! I've been working so hard at being in a positive, healthy, self love mental place... .so this felt radically awful.

Is my son acting out the learned behavior OR frustration from spending time with his dad?

How do I stand up to verbal abuse in front of my son without looking like "the bad guy", fueling the x or talking bad about my x in front of him?

[david]

Two things I learned.
 I never found a way to coparent so I parallel parent. My ex would always sabotage anything I tried to do as a parent so I gave that up. The inconsistency between residences concerned me. Eventually our two boys came to the same conclusion that I was on their side, they respected my rules, and stopped letting ex turn them against me. What happens at moms and what happens at dads are two different things.
Second, I only communicate through email and never (took me time to learn) engage with ex about anything she tries to stir up. If my ex thought she could do something to upset me through our boys she would do it. The less I showed my hand the better things became.
Your son only tried this when both of you were present. It could be he is testing you or BPDx may be able to manipulate him.
The first few years after we separated I would pick up the boys at her residence. It took them close to an hour to become themselves. They were all over the place. They were 4 and 7 at the time. Eventually the transition times were calmer.
My ex dropped our boys off once back in the beginning. They walked into my house and said in unison, "We hate you and want to live with mom. We never want to see you again. My blood pressure elevated but I remained calm and simply said that I loved them both. I felt like running outside and telling ex what I thought of her. That would have just fed the beast inside her and she would have gotten what she wanted. When I stopped giving her what she wanted she slowed down in her attacks. It took me a few years to get good at it.

[ForeverDad]

My custody evaluator didn't use the words parallel parenting, he said tag-team parenting.  Whatever the name, you can't expect your ex to support your decisions, just as he shouldn't expect you to always support his decisions.  What I'm saying is that you're expecting cooperation from your ex when, sadly, that's partly why the marriage or relationship failed, isn't it?

For example, in recent memory my ex disowned our son twice.  Each time lasted a day or two.  And another time she was so mad he was sure he was losing the phone she provided and so deleted his apps.  A few hours later he got the phone back.  We divorced a decade ago, my son is a teenager now.  I just let her do what she wanted to, I couldn't have stopped her anyway.  I explained that to my son and was there during his times of distress.  My rules in my home.  Her rules, however driven by her moods, in her home.  That's a pragmatic perspective.

I know your child is young.  I don't know whether he will recall that incident when he is back with you.  Too much time may have passed for you to enforce your "no screen time today" once he is back in your home.  But next time you can tell son that the consequence starts when he's back in your care.  (Again, he may be too young for a delayed consequence to make sense?)  That way you leave the ex out of the matter since you know he can't be trusted to agree with you.  Does that make sense?

[livednlearned]

During the lunch my son got grumpy and said "I hate you, you're stupid mommy".

What was going on leading up to him saying this?

[1hopefulhuman]

Eventually our two boys came to the same conclusion that I was on their side, they respected my rules, and stopped letting ex turn them against me. What happens at moms and what happens at dads are two different things.

Thank you David, I can only imagine how hard that was to hear your little sons say those words to you - knowing it's not really their words or hold any truth... .but just reflection of how your x must have felt about herself.  My son said those words at me because he wanted screen time not because my x told him I was a bad person. But our son has seen his dad go off on me name calling etc. You have really given me hope that I can still raise our 7 yr old son to have an understanding of a safe healthy home. I believe your choice to go parallel is my next step. Can you explain the difference between what happens at dads vs moms? 

[1hopefulhuman]

next time you can tell son that the consequence starts when he's back in your care.  (Again, he may be too young for a delayed consequence to make sense?)  That way you leave the ex out of the matter since you know he can't be trusted to agree with you.  Does that make sense?

Hi ForeverDad, yes this makes sense and is such a great suggestion! I guess there is no other way, tag-team  parallel makes sense. I like the relief of letting go and not feeling like I need to honor his parenting requests anymore... .which I have done gracefully no matter how odd.  It's a shame because for the past year we have respected each others parenting wishes.

I'm sorry your son has to deal with ridiculous 'dis-owning'... .and I'm glad he has you to help remind him he's not a bad person or deserves that treatment and it's his mother's issue not his.

[1hopefulhuman]

What was going on leading up to him saying this?

My son was frustrated because he had to hang out at my Hawaiian Hula class which is 2 hrs long. He had snacks and toys but he's 7 and only can take so much. Normally my x has him during this time but he asked if he could go on a mountain bike ride instead and I agreed. When we got to to the restaurant he asked to have my cell phone and I said no we don't watch the phone while we eat, that's when he said it.

He never says this when its just the two of us
He has only tried saying it when he's with both of us (rare occurrence - and will be even rarer now)

It's a bummer because my BPDx and I both would like to be somewhat friendly to each other for our son... .school events etc. But it looks like its just not possible.

I'm not even sure how my x comprehends his actions, but for sure he deliberately tried to manipulate the situation by paying me to leave lunch (for massage) and allowing screen time to look like to 'good parent'

[david]

to look like the "good parent"  I think you hit the nail on the head. It looks good for a 7 year old at that instant in time. However, he will get to compare both houses and most kids will pick the household that is stable and consistent.
Our boys stopped communicating things to their mom that were important to them because they never knew what the response would be. I was consistent and steady in my approach. That was a safe place since they knew what to expect. My ex would go off on them about simple things when she was stressed about something. Our oldest started opening up around 10 about what was going on at their moms. By then I was only communicating with her through email. They learned coping strategies at their moms that would have appeared not right when with me. They basically went to their rooms and stayed away from her. They avoided contact because they didn't know what to expect. It was not like that with me and I thought they were embellishing things too much. However, at our last custody eval it was pointed out by the evaluator that was exactly what was going on at her place.

[livednlearned]

Do you think he's modeling behavior he has seen you or your ex exhibit toward one another?

In an earlier post you mention that your relationship has been emotionally reactive on both sides. Might he be trying to solve his emotional distress by trying out behaviors he sees you engage in as adults?

If so, it might be asking your son a lot to behave better than what he is exposed to

He cannot develop emotional regulation skills if they are not modeled for him. Fortunately, you can do this for S7, even if your ex cannot.

I'm not saying it's ok S7 said what he said.

He may need a lot more help regulating emotions, and understanding how his own emotions work. The example you shared is more about your emotions and how they work.

"S7, are you angry at me? It's ok to be angry. It's not ok to call people names or be mean. You had to wait a long time for me during my class, and it's ok if you feel frustrated about the phone rule at lunch, I understand that's a lot of waiting. You did a good job waiting and you want us to focus on what you need. Let's have a do-over. I want to apologize for how long you had to wait. It was a long time and you did a really good job holding it together. Then you apologize for name-calling. In the meantime, we are wrapping up lunch and when we get in the car you can have the phone."

He's the kid, so you have to show him what you mean by respect  

You don't need to stand up to your son's verbal abuse. You show him how to handle his emotions when he's frustrated in a way that's skillful.

Reward him for apologizing that he didn't handle it well.

Punishing him for behaving badly rarely works. You might get short-term compliance but you won't get respect.

[ForeverDad]

My son was frustrated because he had to hang out at my Hawaiian Hula class which is 2 hrs long.

Wow, I wouldn't have minded watching for two hours.
(My divorce was 10 years ago, still single, surely time to Move On.)

[takingandsending]

Hi 1hopefulhuman,

Gosh, I think I once posted a confession here how my then S6 said some judgmental thing my uBPDxw often said, and I completely became unglued. It is really so hard when our children mirror a behavior or pattern from a former partner that has been so damaging to us. But we need to be able to see it for what it is - we are still reactive to the stimulus, even when it's coming from someone we love that isn't cognitively capable of introducing that stimulus with intent to harm.

I definitely agree with the other folks - don't expect a BPD spouse to follow through with your choices on parenting or discipline. If you and your ex are able to meet on some goals or aspirations for your son, rejoice in the things that you can come together on. It means, to some degree, that he is trying, where many BPD spouses won't or will go to the extreme of trashing/sabotaging. But definitely, assume your own responsibility for the things that you do not agree on. Even in a working marriage, no two parents are ever going to see eye to eye at all times on what reasonable behavior is from a kid.

One thing that wasn't really mentioned, would you consider telling your xh "No" on the mountain bike ride swap request next time? Having the boundary there, so that you could get your needs met and get S7's needs met was maybe the key ingredient that got missed.

[1hopefulhuman]

I was consistent and steady in my approach. That was a safe place since they knew what to expect.

This is really inspirational and what I am striving for. I have an amazing support group of healthy friends and family that are helping to check me in check and acknowledging the consistency I am providing him in this new arrangement.

I came from an abusive household (alcoholic mother) and I did the same thing your kids do, hide out in the rooms - good strategy! Thank you for the support and sharing your experience with this situation.

[1hopefulhuman]

Do you think he's modeling behavior he has seen you or your ex exhibit toward one another?

"S7, are you angry at me? It's ok to be angry. It's not ok to call people names or be mean. You had to wait a long time for me during my class, and it's ok if you feel frustrated about the phone rule at lunch, I understand that's a lot of waiting. You did a good job waiting and you want us to focus on what you need. Let's have a do-over. I want to apologize for how long you had to wait. It was a long time and you did a really good job holding it together. Then you apologize for name-calling. In the meantime, we are wrapping up lunch and when we get in the car you can have the phone."

You don't need to stand up to your son's verbal abuse. You show him how to handle his emotions when he's frustrated in a way that's skillful.

Punishing him for behaving badly rarely works. You might get short-term compliance but you won't get respect.

Thank you livednlearned. Yes, last year during the discard and breakup S7 witnessed both me and x being emotionally over reactive. I didn't understand what I was dealing with at the time and I was in a state of confusion and verbal self defense. It's been around 6 months since he's seen me raise my voice in defense, it's been 1 mth since he watched his dad RAGE at me at a pick up.  I told my x to not speak to me like that and walked / drove away with son.  I also spoke to my son about it and told him his dad is still learning how to have a compassionate confrontation (which is what he learns in school). It is possible he's modeling behavior he's seen from both of us.  This last round where I DID lose it emotionally was all communicated by text and S7 has no idea I did that, he did not see me lose my cool.

I LOVE your example of speaking to him and it's almost exactly what I said - the only difference in my situation was: after watching his dad rage at me last mth, S7 and I made an "agreement" that we didn't want to raise voices, curse or speak to each other disrespectfully in OUR house - and if we did we would have consequences: I put a dollar in a jar if I curse and he doesn't get his screen-time if he shouts or speaks disrespectfully, if he's angry at me he can write down how he feels, go to his room and punch pillows etc. So, it's not framed as a "punishment" it's an arrangement & lifestyle goal between us.

I didn't feel like I needed to stand up to my son's abuse... .in fact that did nothing to me emotionally except feel compassion for my little guys feelings. My trigger was my x being manipulative and purposely disrespectful - yuk.

[1hopefulhuman]

Wow, I wouldn't have minded watching for two hours.
(My divorce was 10 years ago, still single, surely time to Move On.)

Hahaha! I keep trying to engage him as there as two other young boys in class, but I don't want to pressure him. Yes I understand, sometimes I wonder how long it will be for me too... .work, kids, friends... .I'm just not ready, still healing myself hoping to attract a healthy person with my own health ;)  doesn't matter if its 1 year or 10, we all have our own timelines we have to trust I guess? Sounds like your ready!

[1hopefulhuman]

- Gosh, I think I once posted a confession here how my then S6 said some judgmental thing my uBPDxw often said, and I completely became unglued.

- If you and your ex are able to meet on some goals or aspirations for your son, rejoice in the things that you can come together on.

- Would you consider telling your xh "No" on the mountain bike ride swap request next time? Having the boundary there, so that you could get your needs met and get S7's needs met was maybe the key ingredient that got missed.

Thank you takingandsending! RE: Unglued, it's moments like those I guess we need to forgive ourselves and learn. One of the reasons I love this board is to share our 'moments' without judgement.

I really like this reminder of still meeting on some goals. I got so angry I made a decision in my head "well, I guess I don't have to respect his parental wishes now either"... it felt so black and white and sad.

YES! The bounry with the mountain bike ride was a boundary test that failed! I will either have to get a baby sitter or he will need to take him. xo

[takingandsending]

Well, that’s the joy of pwBPD, we know they will let us retake that test on boundaries over and over and over ... .

[worriedStepmom]

I have a son that pushes limits regularly.  I have a nonBPDex who occasionally agrees to coparent but who prefers to parallel parent.

When S acts out at my home, he is punished at my home.  If I give a 3-day electronics timeout on Thursday and it's his dad's weekend... .then the timeout is paused while he is at dad's and resumes when he gets back.   IF dad chooses to enforce the consequence - or S abides by it voluntarily at the other house - then I credit him that time served.  (I have an older daughter who tattles on him, so he gets caught if he tries to lie about it.)

If it's a major issue and major punishment, ex and I usually communicate and try to give the same punishment (e.g., S watched inappropriate videos on Youtube and had really bad language.  His dad banned all YouTube and told me about it.  I likewise banned YouTube at my house.).

My stepdaughter, aged 11, has a uBPDmom who doesn't really believe in punishment ever (because a) can't admit that SD11 did anything wrong and b) doesn't want SD11 to stop loving her).  At our house, SD11 has clear expectations to follow and consequences for not meeting those; for the most part, those consequences only take place at our house.  A few weeks ago I overheard her mom railing about a punishment that SD had gotten; SD cut her off and said "I did X, so OF COURSE Dad said I couldn't do Y after that."  It made us feel like decent parents!

We're also getting more creative with punishments.  My favorite and currently most effective - blatant disrespect gets you assigned to cut onions for dinner - the tears the onions cause are directly related to how someone might feel inside because of your words.  This has improved S9's behavior way more than taking away electronics time.

[david]

"I did X, so OF COURSE Dad said I couldn't do Y after that." Those are the moments you know you are doing the right thing. They don't happen often.
I have stepsons, they are exs' from her first marriage. One is total NC with his mom since around 2010. Another is LC and only really contacts her for occasions. Sends flowers for Mothers day, calls for Christmas, sends a card for her birthday, etc. I have a good relationship with them. We get together on a regular basis, they call to see how I am doing, etc. I honestly didn't expect it when we separated. The one that is LC got married a few years ago. He wanted to talk to me about the wedding. I told him I understood if he didn't want me to attend to minimize the chance of anything happening. He became angry with me for even thinking it. I had a good time at the wedding. However, ex did several things that ticked him, the bride, and her family off. She got invited to two things after that and burned that bridge.