Improving Double standards

[QBert]

I know, from experience and reading about the experiences of others, double standards are frequently associated with BPD. What a/he does is not on for you or someone else close to her to do.

I think it's normal for double standards to lead to resentment.  What are some ways you experience double standards and what do you do/have done to successfully or unsuccessfully address them?

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[BeagleGirl]

Qbert,
Double standards are very frustrating. I think this is a great topic to dialogue on. Perhaps some specific examples would help.

I tend to think of double standards in terms of boundaries. For someone to have a given boundary but then not honor the same or similar boundary that I have set feels incredibly unfair. One way of looking at it that has helped me is that my boundary is there for me to know what my actions will be if/when it is crossed, not to keep someone from attempting to cross it. Unfortunately saying “you don’t want me to do this to you, so you shouldn’t do this to me” isn’t enough to get some people to honor your boundaries. It can actually put you in more of a JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) mode. You don’t have to justify your boundaries. You just have to consistently enforce them.

That’s my two cents. Can you share a specific example we can help you work through?

BeagleGirl

[once removed]

What are some ways you experience double standards and what do you do/have done to successfully or unsuccessfully address them?

ooh, ooh! i have a whole lot of unsuccessful experience!  

they were a defining feature of my relationship, really. some examples include demanding privacy and that she not snoop, then snooping to see if shed snooped on me... .both of us agreeing breakup threats were unhealthy, and still using them to get our way. the ways we fought. many, many more.

i think these things are like circular arguments, in that in many cases, they take two. of course there are plenty of exceptions. if your partner doesnt like yelling, you dont yell, and they do, thats on them. but if its not something you have a super hard time with, its not really any skin off your nose either.

i know in my relationship we had a lot of clashes over our values, neither of us were willing to live them, and walk the walk. we had trouble getting on the same page when we tried, which is an approach id recommend in times of calm.

what sorts of double standards are you experiencing, QBert? how can we help?

[QBert]

An example... .a common one, perhaps. When we have a beef, she gets consolation from her close female friend(s) (it depends which she is on ins/outs with at that time, as nearly all of her close friendships are unstable because of her BPD, personality issues with the others, or sometimes both).

Yet if I try to find some comfort in a friend (same sex as me), I'm called weak by her, etc.


Of course, this is only one example. There are others.

[once removed]

gotcha. that helps. its a common problem in a lot of relationships, unfortunately.

what are your views on confiding relationship problems in friends, in general?

[QBert]

gotcha. that helps. its a common problem in a lot of relationships, unfortunately.

what are your views on confiding relationship problems in friends, in general?

We don't really have mutual friends (her preference). There is "her" friends and "my" friends. I'm happy to hang out with her and her friends -- good times! However; she has zero interest in hanging out with me and my friends.

I think trying to involve mutual friends would be a foul (See Karpman Drama triangle)... .But I think, in general, having one or two close confidants is a healthy thing -- for both men and women.

[once removed]

I think trying to involve mutual friends would be a foul (See Karpman Drama triangle)... .But I think, in general, having one or two close confidants is a healthy thing -- for both men and women.

a very valuable concept youre digging into, friend! very relevant, too. its important to know there is both good and bad triangulation. good triangulation (a good couples therapist for example) can help stabilize conflict.

personally, i tend to agree with you. its nice to have a friend you can simply vent to, although its important to be mindful of damaging that relationship, turning them against your partner. likewise, its nice to have a trusted friend who can challenge your perspective and offer practical advice.

can you tell us more about why she doesnt wish to have mutual friends and isnt interested in yours?

i hear you when you say she gets consolation from her friends, and calls you weak when you do. are the two of you discussing it together? how is this playing out?

[formflier]

The "double standard" thing caught my eye.

I've had some success in addressing them (note... .I didn't use the word "fix" or "solve")

When someone creates a "double bind"... .you usually have the option of walking out of it.  However, where most of us "nons" get caught up is we want to "walk out of it" and have our pwBPD "be happy" or "realize we were right"... or something like that.

You are likely going to have to give her space to process her feelings about double standard you won't be part of

Now... onto your example. 

I was a bit perplexed at how you would know who she confides in and how she would know who you confide in.  Perhaps I missed something in the post.  Perhaps clarify that detail and then I bet I'll get you some good advice.

And... .can you give 3-4 other examples of double standards she has "gotten you" with? 

I bet we get you on a better path... quickly.

FF

[DivDad]

After marrying my uBPDex, she systematically found fault with and isolated most, if not all, of my friends... .over a period of a year.  I didn't realize what was happening at the time.  The marriage was new and I was "appeasing" her to make the marriage work.  (When my children got older, my uBPDex tried to systematically  isolate them from my relatives).  She wanted to "pick" who I saw and didn't see.    This seems to be the MOD of most BPD.  When immersed in the "world of a BPD" you need to find counsel and advice from your core friends and relatives.  Don't abandoned them.   You need the grounding and emotional support  from folks who are on  outside looking in.
Too, when the BPD says she has lots of friends, etc... .sometimes that is not the case.
 

[formflier]

And... .Boundaries are very important.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

pwBPD can try and isolate you all they want.  That's 100% up to them.  Guess what... .only the non is the one that decides if they will isolate themselves or not.

Yep... the pwBPD may or may not be happy with this.  Their emotions.  Their choice.

Many times it really is helpful to keep it that simple.

That's the big concept.

Sure, there can be nuance of validation involved and how you say things does matter, yet don't loose sight of the "real facts".  A non only becomes isolated if they choose to go along with BPDish stuff.

FF

[QBert]

The "double standard" thing caught my eye.

I've had some success in addressing them (note... .I didn't use the word "fix" or "solve")

When someone creates a "double bind"... .you usually have the option of walking out of it.  However, where most of us "nons" get caught up is we want to "walk out of it" and have our pwBPD "be happy" or "realize we were right"... or something like that.

You are likely going to have to give her space to process her feelings about double standard you won't be part of

Now... onto your example. 

I was a bit perplexed at how you would know who she confides in and how she would know who you confide in.  Perhaps I missed something in the post.  Perhaps clarify that detail and then I bet I'll get you some good advice.

And... .can you give 3-4 other examples of double standards she has "gotten you" with? 

I bet we get you on a better path... quickly.

FF

How do I know who she confides? She has had a consistent "bestie” for  several years, though they too have had their ups and downs. She tells me that she talks to her about our  problems after the fact... .One way or another, it comes out.

Another example of a double standard: If I leave a comment on one of her social media, she will often (33% or more of the time) delete it, saying she doesn't like me pissing on her posts. Yet in the past she has said something I didn't like on a social media post of mine. She was even laughing at the time saying it was a asss comment to leave.  I deleted it before anyone could see it. She promptly unfriended and blocked me, we didn't speak again for about a day until I pushed us hard to confront the matter and talk about it.

That's one example I have time to write about at the moment.

[once removed]

ah, facebook bickering. my ex and i did some of that too.

it sounds like youve been digging into the tools here. you may already know that boundaries arent so much things we place on others, but on ourselves and our interactions with others.

id start there. dont piss on her posts. dont engage in bickering on facebook of any kind.

that cleans up your side of the street. she may follow your lead on that (it may take time). she may not.

some couples elect not to be friends on social media, for various reasons. im not recommending it, but it might be something down the road to explore if the facebook stuff is all around bad for your relationship.

alternatively, change things up. if youre gonna comment, be positive. think in terms of making facebook something positive for you both to share, if possible.

[mssalty]

One of the things I realized is that my SO sees only the spin that puts them in the best light and makes them the most comfortable.  That is the actual standard.   

This is why it is frustrating.  There is no common ground you can hold if situationally your BPD partner is made unhappy in the moment by the common ground. 

If you point out there is a double standard, usually you’ll hear “no it’s not”.  If you successfully argue that, they’ll bring up something else that you’ve done that makes this double standard okay.  If you say that’s not what it’s about, they’ll move the goal posts again. 

My SO recently said the worst thing they’ve ever said to me in an argument.  It was an argument that they didn’t seem to realize highlighted a huge double standard they had set for me that they were not upholding.   The irony of the double standard had me so bewildered that the awful thing they said didn’t fully register. 

The truth is that they cannot handle being the villain in their own heads.  If you have a disagreement, they have to define it in black and white and you or whoever makes them uncomfortable will always be the one in black.   Even if that means what was an important standard yesterday is irrelevant today.   

[Maximum44]

One of the double standards that I deal with regularly is bringing up something said in the past to make/prove a point.  She does this all the time and it is ok because she is just trying to make a point.  If I do it, I am holding something said in the past over her head.

How do I handle this?  Trying to use logic to explain that it is a double standard doesn't work.  So I've tried to learn to live with it.  I do my best not to bring up things said in the past.  That is the easiest part.  The hard part is staying calm and not JADEing when she uses things I've said in the past that hurt me.

This bothers me some because then I feel like I am saying it is ok for her to do it and not me.  It doesn't feel fair and I want to speak up for myself.  But I have learned that usually makes things worse.

Double standards are definitely hard.

[QBert]

My SO recently said the worst thing they’ve ever said to me in an argument.  It was an argument that they didn’t seem to realize highlighted a huge double standard they had set for me that they were not upholding.   The irony of the double standard had me so bewildered that the awful thing they said didn’t fully register. 

The truth is that they cannot handle being the villain in their own heads.  If you have a disagreement, they have to define it in black and white and you or whoever makes them uncomfortable will always be the one in black.   Even if that means what was an important standard yesterday is irrelevant today.   

I think you may be touching on shame. Admitting the double standard may cause unbearable shame, so it's easier to Deny it exists or... .Blame you for it, if it can't be denied... .hmmmm

[QBert]

One of the double standards that I deal with regularly is bringing up something said in the past to make/prove a point.  She does this all the time and it is ok because she is just trying to make a point.  If I do it, I am holding something said in the past over her head.

How do I handle this?  Trying to use logic to explain that it is a double standard doesn't work.  So I've tried to learn to live with it.  I do my best not to bring up things said in the past.  That is the easiest part.  The hard part is staying calm and not JADEing when she uses things I've said in the past that hurt me.

This bothers me some because then I feel like I am saying it is ok for her to do it and not me.  It doesn't feel fair and I want to speak up for myself.  But I have learned that usually makes things worse.

Double standards are definitely hard.

Yes... .I can attest to this double standard as well. My past errors are never forgotten and brought up when a current point needs to be made... .Even things I didn't know I did wrong in the past and she was concealing frustration on are brought up.


If I make mention of the past, I must be keeping records... .And how is that relevant right now? What's relavent right now is how I screwed up/dropped the ball. How she contributed to the present is also not relevant.

[EdR]

One of the things I realized is that my SO sees only the spin that puts them in the best light and makes them the most comfortable.  That is the actual standard.   

This is why it is frustrating.  There is no common ground you can hold if situationally your BPD partner is made unhappy in the moment by the common ground. 

If you point out there is a double standard, usually you’ll hear “no it’s not”.  If you successfully argue that, they’ll bring up something else that you’ve done that makes this double standard okay.  If you say that’s not what it’s about, they’ll move the goal posts again. 

My SO recently said the worst thing they’ve ever said to me in an argument.  It was an argument that they didn’t seem to realize highlighted a huge double standard they had set for me that they were not upholding.   The irony of the double standard had me so bewildered that the awful thing they said didn’t fully register. 

The truth is that they cannot handle being the villain in their own heads.  If you have a disagreement, they have to define it in black and white and you or whoever makes them uncomfortable will always be the one in black.   Even if that means what was an important standard yesterday is irrelevant today.   

I cannot stress these bold parts enough. It is probably the most important dynamic in why everything went haywire in my situation.
For me it is completely absurd, but it is extremely important to know and understand this awful dynamic!

[once removed]

at the heart of the karpman drama triangle is the need to be right. from that position, it is hard to resolve conflict.

its really hard to let go of that. we see our partners views as distorted, and in plenty of cases of course, they are. but if you can learn to step back and look at it objectively, we own the conflict too.

we mention the past to prove a point but accuse them of throwing the kitchen sink at us. defending ourselves against the things we did in the past. explaining to them that they are the ones with the double standard. round, and round, and round. you dont have this without two people participating.

at the end of the day its all JADE and circular arguments. if theres an unfairness here, its that we often have to be the ones to take the initiative in ending this cycle first. but we are here to learn how to lead our relationships into healthier territory.

we have a great 3 minute lesson here on ending conflict https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

but one important thing i learned here is that it really pays to know, and to practice, the fair fighting rules https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=164901.0

i wish id known them. it would have saved me a lot of time and stress and id have done and said a lot fewer hurtful things. 

 

[DivDad]

Two observations. 
(1) I spent a better part of a decade living with the “double standard” with my uexBPDw.  The double standard comes in many flavors and on many levels. It’s endless and nothing more than a merry-go-round dialogue with no real resolution. Digging up the past usually doesn’t bode well for the non-BPD.   

It took me awhile to realize (and learn) that reason, conciliation and bringing up the past by saying, “well, you did this” does not compute with a BPD and only triggers yet another round…and another round.

There is some good advice here about not getting into the trap of going down history lane…and ending the dialogue early on... .and moving on. Sometimes, (but not always) you just have to tell yourself there is a double standard here, knowing that there is….and move on.

 You can’t dwell on the “double standard” matter. There is certainly no end game of “winning” a double standard argument with a BPD. They like circular arguments.  If the BPD brings up the double standard subject, just say, “that’s just not the case, sorry you feel that way”…and move on.  At one point, you just have to politely leave the room.

 (2)  As for Facebook, at some point, there is a case to be made to reduce some of the channels of communication with a BPD…especially so when the BPD has an audience.  Facebook is certainly a platform for this.  You can’t rely on deleting every BPD Facebook message in a timely manner.  There is a tendency to rebut a message on Facebook…which is not exactly the forum you want to be in when communicating with a BPD.
Remember, BPD like an audience.  And you can’t ignore an undesirable posting that everyone has seen.  I don’t know your Facebook situation…but this is something you have to consider and rectify if things start to ratchet up in the future. 

[Maximum44]

we mention the past to prove a point but accuse them of throwing the kitchen sink at us. defending ourselves against the things we did in the past. explaining to them that they are the ones with the double standard. round, and round, and round. you dont have this without two people participating.

at the end of the day its all JADE and circular arguments. if theres an unfairness here, its that we often have to be the ones to take the initiative in ending this cycle first. but we are here to learn how to lead our relationships into healthier territory.

Yes. I realize now that it is JADEing to bring up old history to try to make a point so I try to not do this.  (Not JADEing is one of my points of emphasis along with learning to validate better.)  Sometimes it is hard not to fall into the trap.  Something comes up that reminds of something she said in the past and the next thing I know, I said "but you said... ."  It never turns out good.  Like Qbert said, she will say I'm keeping records.  But it is a battle that can't can't be won so it is best if I avoid it to begin with.

[jxeer]

Qbert,
Double standards are very frustrating. I think this is a great topic to dialogue on. Perhaps some specific examples would help.

I tend to think of double standards in terms of boundaries. For someone to have a given boundary but then not honor the same or similar boundary that I have set feels incredibly unfair. One way of looking at it that has helped me is that my boundary is there for me to know what my actions will be if/when it is crossed, not to keep someone from attempting to cross it. Unfortunately saying “you don’t want me to do this to you, so you shouldn’t do this to me” isn’t enough to get some people to honor your boundaries. It can actually put you in more of a JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) mode. You don’t have to justify your boundaries. You just have to consistently enforce them.

That’s my two cents. Can you share a specific example we can help you work through?

BeagleGirl

I had never thought of double-standards in light of boundaries before. I really appreciate that insight! I deal with double standards constantly with my BP partner. Our last big blow-out contained kind of a double standard:

We finally reached a place where things began to feel like they were steadily improving about two weeks ago, when out of nowhere she texted me about us needing to talk because she had been having feelings about me getting coffee with an ex last year and two years ago I exchanged drawing lessons for meditation sessions with a friend. She came to believe this was a "form of intimacy" and took it as a matter of loyalty and disloyalty.

She was telling me this while she was on her way to go see her ex who she cuts off and reconnects with every few months, and very guiltily tried to assure me was a non-romantic hangout. I made no fuss and told her I respect her autonomy and she doesn't need my permission to see anybody.

The following day, we had plans to meet up and she cancels them and requests we skype instead. She then suddenly breaks up with me and says there isn't any way we could ever work out (after being adamant about us getting married since last year). I personally don't care if she keeps ex's as friends - she has introduced me to a number of them, including the guy who took her virginity as a teenager. However, me getting coffee once with an ex last year was cause for breakup during an otherwise steady period.

I think addressing double-standards as boundary issues is brilliant and worth finding a way to apply.

[once removed]

i mentioned working to get on the same page in times of calm, along with cleaning up our side of the street. i had a fair amount of success there. when my partner and i were calm and loving, and having "relationship talk" we could both be pretty open to each other, problem solving, stating our needs, without being overly defensive or accusatory. use these times. be appreciative. often times pwBPD traits have difficulty stating their needs, expect their partners to read their minds, and sometimes we do too. i like this approach in times of calm.

One tool I have used is, during times of bliss, to lightly ask the question, "why do you think I am a ______ ) lets say "procrastinator".

And then listen.

And then follow up with a few "supreme court" type questions in a day or two.

Day 2: So your example that I missed taking out the trash on trash day, is what you think of when you say procrastinator? I did do that. I'm a bad trash person. I had reasons. None are really good. I'll work on it.

Day 4: When you paid the mortgage late, is that a type of procrastination, or just an honest mistake? Can we help each other on this?

Slowly whittle it down. Chip away over time.

bolding mine. dont hit every grievance/double standard/whatever at once. left to fester though, these things breed resentment, inflame conflict, keep relationships stagnant... .both partners lose the will to improve things.

[sotiredofthis]

Yep... the pwBPD may or may not be happy with this.  Their emotions.  Their choice.

Many times it really is helpful to keep it that simple.

That's the big concept.

FF

If I could just remember this I'd be so much better off.