Quote that hit home to FF from detaching board (Detaching yet staying post)

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So... from time to time I come across something that reflects how I "feel" about my relationship with my wife.

FF's big picture.  Things are so much calmer, it's unbelievable.  However, I really don't think my "old relationship" will ever come back.

Since I'm coming up on 25 years married... .I suppose it's natural to reflect as you pass milestones.  15ish years normal. (natural disaster trigger)  Couple years of ramping up bad behavior.  Couple years of really bad.  I found this place in early 2014.  I had just recently been given a copy of SWOE. 

I was on bettering for a while, then shifted over to conflicted.   

I suspect that I'm pretty close to "maxed out" on what I can do (what effect I can have) on the relationship without my wife's cooperation.

I can't imagine getting divorced (I've seen divorce in her FOO)... .I'm way better off... .as in my entire family.

I'm happy.

I'm not "happy" with my relationship with my wife and I certainly don't want to give off the vibe that I'm "ok" with that, yet I also understand it is what it is.

If it wasn't for a great psychologist and bpdfamily... .I can't imagine what my life would be like.

I sometimes feel like I am manipulating my wife and the relationship by using my "tools".  Take intimacy and emotional closeness.  I can pretty much have it whenever I want it.  I just have to consider that she will "react" and blame me, life and everything else.

2 nights ago we have movie night on the couch.  Just me and her.  Very close, snuggly.  Somehow I missed that the movie was way longer than 90ish minutes.  It really didn't matter.  We had great time.  Best sex I've had in long... long time.  And off to sleep we went.

The buzz saw showed up next day.  I ignored it... went on with my life.  It was somewhat better today.

So... .there is a lot of what I quoted below that rings true with me.  I've "detached" from the old relationship and I'm making my way in this new (whatever you call it).

You were man enough to approach her. You were man enough to not retaliate to the snub. The task now is to put it in perspective - this is just what happens when a relationship crashes and burns. This is where "Detachment" (something you are still working on) is so important. You have to find the strength in your character to dig deep and set the old relationship free, let it go with all its glory and bitterness.

It's a chapter in your life. Once you let it go, you can write that chapter (with the good and the not so good and the life lesson), and then move to the next one.

Anyway... .you guys know I'm much more of a "thinker".   it "feels" weird to be doing my marriage the way I am, yet it seems to work better than the alternatives.

Not really sure what I "want" from this post.  This certainly seems like something to explore.

Thoughts?


FF

[formflier]

So... from time to time I come across something that reflects how I "feel" about my relationship with my wife.

FF's big picture.  Things are so much calmer, it's unbelievable.  However, I really don't think my "old relationship" will ever come back.

Since I'm coming up on 25 years married... .I suppose it's natural to reflect as you pass milestones.  15ish years normal. (natural disaster trigger)  Couple years of ramping up bad behavior.  Couple years of really bad.  I found this place in early 2014.  I had just recently been given a copy of SWOE. 

I was on bettering for a while, then shifted over to conflicted.   

I suspect that I'm pretty close to "maxed out" on what I can do (what effect I can have) on the relationship without my wife's cooperation.

I can't imagine getting divorced (I've seen divorce in her FOO)... .I'm way better off... .as in my entire family.

I'm happy.

I'm not "happy" with my relationship with my wife and I certainly don't want to give off the vibe that I'm "ok" with that, yet I also understand it is what it is.

If it wasn't for a great psychologist and bpdfamily... .I can't imagine what my life would be like.

I sometimes feel like I am manipulating my wife and the relationship by using my "tools".  Take intimacy and emotional closeness.  I can pretty much have it whenever I want it.  I just have to consider that she will "react" and blame me, life and everything else.

2 nights ago we have movie night on the couch.  Just me and her.  Very close, snuggly.  Somehow I missed that the movie was way longer than 90ish minutes.  It really didn't matter.  We had great time.  Best sex I've had in long... long time.  And off to sleep we went.

The buzz saw showed up next day.  I ignored it... went on with my life.  It was somewhat better today.

So... .there is a lot of what I quoted below that rings true with me.  I've "detached" from the old relationship and I'm making my way in this new (whatever you call it).

You were man enough to approach her. You were man enough to not retaliate to the snub. The task now is to put it in perspective - this is just what happens when a relationship crashes and burns. This is where "Detachment" (something you are still working on) is so important. You have to find the strength in your character to dig deep and set the old relationship free, let it go with all its glory and bitterness.

It's a chapter in your life. Once you let it go, you can write that chapter (with the good and the not so good and the life lesson), and then move to the next one.

Anyway... .you guys know I'm much more of a "thinker".   it "feels" weird to be doing my marriage the way I am, yet it seems to work better than the alternatives.

Not really sure what I "want" from this post.  This certainly seems like something to explore.

Thoughts?


FF

[snowglobe]

@Formflier,
I want to first begin by acknowledging how hard you have worked in the time I have known you. It’s a tiidious task to pull things apart, dissect, analyze and make appropriate decision. I also want to point out, that over 50% of relationships in North America don’t make it to the 25 years line. You have made it, even though you have BPD on the table. You need to sit with it, and recognize what a huge achievement that is. You also take responsibility for your feelings and well being. You are a maker of your own life, which brings me to my final point. It takes. Great and brave man to realize that relationships that you have been building aren’t the ones you ended up with. It sucks, I can voucher for that. Yet, with this newfound acceptance, who knows where it will take you and your wife?
I went through similar stage, and still going through it, I’m still mourning and grieving over the life and marriage I hoped and wished I would have. Given the reluctance that my uBPDh is displaying for any changes in his behaviour I no longer make long term plans. It’s a different approach to marriage and commitment in general. I have a question for you: if you take your kids out of the equation, where does it leave just the two of you? Let’s say thay are all fully grown, what does your marriage look like then?
I can’t give advices, as you are far more wiser then me, I can only speak for myself. I’m conflicted, as you are. I’m also taking the same approach to my marriage as I do with religion: I’m agnostic. I don’t know if there is life after death, I don’t know if there is G-d, perhaps there is nothing after the computer shuts off. Yet, I can’t bring myself to deny it. Same is true for my marriage. I don’t know if we will grow old together. I don’t have any guarantees that he, or I won’t produce another blow out resulting in something so heinous that there isn’t a way to come back from it. At the same time I’m not willing to deny a possibility that him and I can be happy together.
Another question:
You mentioned in one of your posts that you don’t have a relationships with your wife’s foo. Tell me, why does it look like? How did you come to that decision? Were You explicit when you came to this, or did you distance yourself without having a formal conversation about it? Does it impact your relationships?
Finally, someone recently told me, “you only start really living once you realize that you only have one life. Stop holding your breath waiting for something. You need to start living, enjoying your life to the fullest, stop denying yourself from happiness”. Im going on a retreat to learn how to stop closing my eyes and waiting for an impact. While I await for the impact, my life goes by me, where I’m just a witness to it, not a participant. I want to learn how to engage with it.
How would your life would look like if you realized that?

[Cat Familiar]

FF,
I want to join with Snowglobe and commend you for all the hard work you've put in to make your relationship better. It's one thing if both partners do the work together, but I know it's been solely resting on your shoulders and any improvement your wife has made has been a result of your efforts.  

I too appreciate what Skip wrote and I felt that letting go process in my own relationship. I came here in crisis, as do most, and was totally perplexed trying to figure out where my communication skills were lacking. I thought I'd finally created the relationship I had waited my whole life to have, and then Mr. Hyde showed up. "Hey, I didn't invite you! Go back to the hole you crawled out of and tell Dr. Jeckyl to return."

Of course it didn't work that way and I felt a tremendous amount of grief realizing that I had fallen in love with a fantasy, a fantasy that was never to return. So I was angry and I'm sure if I looked back at my initial posts, I would find a tremendous amount of vitriol, but I certainly don't want to revisit that.

I finally was able to let go of the anger, then after that the grief, and now I've entered a new phase where I'm quite happy. And that I'm not harboring these uncomfortable emotions, I can ride the waves much easier, and the waves are no longer tsunamis but rather mild ripples that pass with little notice.

Cat

[formflier]

Thanks guys...

I explain more about the FOO later today.

FF

[Enabler]

Hey FF, again, let me join the others in thanking you for your tireless work here at bpdfamily. The way you make step by step thinking and action points is invaluable.

The problem with knowledge is that it assigns understanding. It allows us to rationalise the irrational... .which is great because it allows us to somewhat discount whole swathes of behaviour as “BPDish”. That’s brilliant for survival and making things better, but I also feel it means we only love half the woman, as though we have managed to compartmentalised our SO into great bit, and messed up bit that I can manage. Sometimes it might feel preferable to love the entire person some of the time and loath then the next. At least that way at some points we have everything we want rather than splitting the person into 2 characters all of the time... ., like a reverse ‘splitting’.

You have been very successful in managing your wife’s disorder, I probably found BPD too late in the innings to now make a meaningful difference to the outcome. I do mourn for my ignorance though, I extrapolate forward and sense with certainty that life will never be normal and never be normal for my kids. Almost like the curse of having a crystal ball knowing when your friends are going to die.

Hope of normal is dead by the side of the road. That’s a tough thing to radically accept.

[Red5]

I’ll concur with all the above commmeters,

Formflier, you have helped me out a lot too since I made my crash landing here January was a year ago, and I do sincerely appreciate your many lines on this board of good and sound advice and encouragement !

Wish I had a little more time... .maybe in a few days,

Hang tough FF, we all admire you for your courage and determination, as well your many volumes of “lived and loved” knowledge that you have enparted to all of us here on these boards!

Red5

[AskingWhy]

FF, you are to be commended for finding your solutions in the midst of chaos.

I surmise most people would just divorce.  That is not an option for many of us for a number of reasons.

I will always mourn not having a normal marriage to a normal man.

Most of all, thank you for sharing your insights.  You have many of them that others have not contemplated.

[Notwendy]

I went through a grief stage and then thankfully on to acceptance. While I think BPD causes difficulties in intimate relationships, it also is on a spectrum and that includes additional problems that are more common in pwBPD. There are similarities in dynamics but every relationship is also different.

For some of us here, the issues are relatively milder- and don't include difficult situations such as infidelity, substance abuse, suicide threats, inability to hold a job, sexless marriages and physical abuse. I mention these because I do think they play into decisions to stay or leave. Ultimately every person has to decide for themselves.

It remains frustrating when I realize that my H can process things I say or do in a very different way than I intend and them and if he perceives any sense of slight or criticism, he will retort back with snarky or hurtful comments. I used to feel very hurt by them and react to them. It helps to just keep in mind that this, in a way, is reflexive, said and meant in the moment, and not something to dwell on.  Self care and not giving into my own co-dependent tendencies are important relationship tools for myself.

My other BPD relationship is with my seriously impaired BPD mother and have been an observer of my parents' relationship. I think this also has contributed to my feeling relatively fortunate. I don't think I could have chosen to stay married to someone like her, but my father did. This is the other side of the relationship- just as we all have different partners, each member on this board is different too- and each is uniquely positioned to make the best decision for themselves. It confirms to me the rule here- not to post run or stay, or judge.

I commend FF for his advice and sharing his ability to cope with a difficult situation, and am grateful for the huge amount of help he contributes here. I also want to share that success for one person may not be success for another- and there are many different "successes". One may be reducing the drama, or gaining better boundaries, or making it work, or realizing it doesn't work and moving on. There is a lot of learning in arriving at each person's individual "success".

[formflier]

So... .I'm not naturally the most reflective guy.  More of a "doer".

I certainly have been more deliberate about "reflecting" while under the guidance of my P. 

So, one thing that I bat around in my head from time to time is wondering if it is "ethical" or "moral" to do the thing that actually works well for me, where I choose times to be close to my wife... I enjoy those times and then I either become a bit more aloof (rare) or keep enjoying the time until she flips out and does some sort of "push" (push/pull) and then I just press on.

Maybe the better question is "is it manipulative".

My wife will grump about us not being intimate yet doesn't seem to want to take any steps (that actually work).

Not a crisis or anything, just something I try to "organize" in my head that what I'm doing is "OK".

It certainly "works".

FF

[Enabler]

FF, do we not all manipulate in some way shape or form? Consciously or subconsciously we ‘sell’ ideas we believe in and likely omit negative aspects... .a crude example being a gift when we’re trying to butter them up for something. I don’t think there’s a single person in a single marriage up and down the land that doesn’t somehow adapt their behaviours to ‘get’ something, no one is 100% natural, it’s just that some people like yourself have spent a lot of time working out how the levers work.

I think the question you’re asking is it abusive to ‘know’ how the levers work and therefore have power over someone else... .which I think is a moral question. You have known her for many years now, she knows your levers, some positive, some negative. She used to be able to twist you up into and arguement, get you to become defensive, and you allowed her to pull those levers... .just like you allow her to pull the trousers down lever. You had/have a choice about those levers, you just didn’t know it. Now you do and you’ve cut the wires to the negative ones and left the positive ones. She can choose to cut the wires... .but I suspect she won’t, unless that is you abuse that control... .my guess is you won’t abuse that control because you want the best for your wife and family.

In short, you have the ability to abuse the power she has allowed by not cutting the wires to the levers... .those levers work for her at the moment as much as they work for you.

[Red5]

... .random thought, when the Non enforces a boundary... .to the point where it is reminiscent of one of those old Zulu Warrior movies... .is this not a form of manipulation?

https://m.you.tube.com/watch?v=qmuYkYnxeBE

Said another way, the Non holds his or her ground (boundary) to the point of which the pw/BPD finally gets the message, ie’ the final volly of metaphorical rifle fire (manipulation) and stops trying to breach the barcade; the boundary erected and set by the Non.

An example... .Red5 knows that this dinner for MIL’s Birthday is going to be an absolute buffet of triggers for u/BPDw, and as step D33 and her H will be riding along, Red5’s boundary says the he does NOT ride in the vehicle with u/BPDw during these particular events... .as her history says she will act out and ruin it forthwith... .so when Red5 is pressured to ride in same vehicle as u/BPDw, Red5 abjectly refuses to the point of “fix bayonets”... .

And low and behold, Red5 was not dissappointed!

After the (predicted) dysregulation in the restaurant u/BPDw was not able to use her fav tactic and walk out and walk home, as she had to drive her D33 and H, so BPD bailout was not an option, so she had to just sit there and wait till everyone was done with their meals, and b-day jubilations for FOO mum,

Yes, I think I used manipulative measures here to forestall a major dysregulated event... .via holding my boundary about ridding all together in the same vehicle when I know full well what is going to happen due to the FOO demographics that will be represented at the Galla Jubilation event that was Queen MIL’s mandatory fun dinner... .

I see zero harm or bad karma in doing this, considering past historical events... .

Talk about “levers” that dinner table was like sitting in a steam powered meat grinder, it’s always interesting to watch when the entire FOO crew bellies up to the dinner table and starts taking swipes at each other... .

No, no harm... .pull the lever when you need to.

Yes, pull it early, and pull it often !

As far as wires I am the wrong guy to ask as I am a retired bomb technician  !

Red5

[Cat Familiar]

I guess I’m just too damn pragmatic. Manipulate or be manipulated—that’s the name of the game in these relationships with a pwBPD. I wish it weren’t so, but I tried it the other way—being totally open and honest with all my feelings, and that was a disaster.

Now things are great!     Rather than being in the relationship, I’m meta to the relationship and I can enjoy the moments it’s wonderful and protect myself when it’s not.

All in all a much better strategy than my previous one. So if the end justifies the means, and no one gets hurt and everything is better than before, what’s the problem?

[formflier]

You mentioned in one of your posts that you don’t have a relationships with your wife’s foo. Tell me, why does it look like? How did you come to that decision? Were You explicit when you came to this, or did you distance yourself without having a formal conversation about it? Does it impact your relationships?
 

Well... .it would take up too much space to list all the "evidence" that i considered before stepping away from her family.

I'll list a couple highlights.

1.  I'm not aware of anything that has ever been solved and stayed solved in her family.  People will "quit talking about it" or "quit talking to each other".    Apologies are "well... .if you are going to be that way I guess I'll have to say sorry... "  A disagreement about care of my wife's maternal grandmother ended up in a fistfight at grandma's bedside between my wife's Mom (my MIL and a sister of MIL).  

Of 6 children only 3 came to the grandma's funeral.  The "two camps" down't talk to each other.  And it is unlikely they ever will again.

I say all this to say that I realized that trying to solve problems with people that don't solve problems... .well... it's fruitless.  So... I decided to put my energy other places.  Like back into me.

2.  There was a specific "incident" that I guess was a trigger.  Shortly after moving into new house my wife decided that I wasn't allowed to sleep... .or that if I wanted to sleep I would have to go somewhere else.  She was going to have her family over to watch TV and told me (not asked) there would be no sleeping for me.  

I have sleep disabilities, sleeping other places is problematic.  I spoke directly to several of her family members and informed them they were participating in physical abuse... .they should relent and not follow my wife in this.  They refused.  I called cops... and was able to get sleep.  (story is a lot more complicated... but that is enough)

My oldest nephew caused a problem in our house and I kicked him out once.

I haven't spoken a word to, hung out with or any of that my FIL, MIL or SIL in a couple of years. 

Unless they are interested in reconciling... apologizing and all that... .I doubt I ever will again.

They aren't the sort to say they did something wrong.  My life is much better after moving on past this.

I'm sure there are more questions... fire away
FF

[Red5]

There was a specific "incident" that I guess was a trigger.  Shortly after moving into new house my wife decided that I wasn't allowed to sleep... .or that if I wanted to sleep I would have to go somewhere else.  She was going to have her family over to watch TV and told me (not asked) there would be no sleeping for me

. 

Wow !

I have a few war stories too, but I don’t feel up to a highjack tonight, .again, wow FF!

Red5

[formflier]

I will tell the long version at some point.

About a month after moving closer to my wife's foo... she flipped out.

And stayed flipped out for a long time.  Then slowly calmed...

My guess is multiple triggers... FOO being biggest one.

FF

[Red5]

My guess is multiple triggers... FOO being biggest one.

My exW was like that... .any time we were within say... .80 miles (Cecil Field), or later after Pensacola (4 hrs) from her toxic foo... .things got crazy... .she moved back to “NAS Back Yard” and I “geo’ed” in Beaufort after the P-cola tour... .yeah both times she went “quite nuts”... .the third time there, that was the death nail, as she shacked up with ole’ Jody boy while I was on a WESTPAC deployment to Japan, the rest is ancient history now,

The current u/BPDw, she is also being constantly triggered by her foo, she moved back here to the crystal coast after she divorced her first H before we met, courted, and married, right back to her foo after being away from them for over twenty years... .it’s a very interesting story,

Last evening downtown at the eating joint for FOO QUEEN MIL’s mandantory fun b-day dinner; was another for the record book ... .

I can certainly concur FF in regards to FOO snafu (‘s).

Red5

[snowglobe]

@Ff,
I largely suspected that from your posts, from your Christmas post last year, I gathered that when your wife’s foo comes into the picture it’s a trigger for her, and collateral damage for you.
Sadly, I think it’s a reality for most of us here. Even with extensive psychologicsl  treatment I’m going into major anxiety mode as soon as I even see his foo’s phone number on a caller I’d. It’s never a good news for 3 reasons:
Heavily operating on pack animal mentality, e.g. behaviour in groups psychology, conversations revolve around other people, dysecting, criticizing and making verdicts and conclusion. True to form, whoever was discussed during that tribunal hearing will be “hated, ridiculed and exiled by the entire group” as an aftermath. My foo and close friends  are favourite on the menu. Once mil stirrs up the soup, and a group of 6 other family members joins, my unBPDh continues the war on whoever was chosen as scapegoat
Secondly, plans are always made in advance. E.g. family dinners, holiday celebrations, conditions are placed, such as “no one else is invited (read my side of the family”, if we happened to be there, and didn’t say anything, silence is held up as an agreement, and we expected to attend the function on the above stated terms. His foo, however, reserves the right at all times to cancel on a second notice, effectively costing time and money (many examples of not showing up at restaurants that have been reserved and paid for in advance)
Lack of accountability that you, @Ff mentioned, no apologies or owning up to, it’s only “we don’t talk about it, or use heavy dose of fog, such as “we are so old 65 and 78, you need to be mindful and respectful of us, regardless of what I do”
Heavy substance abuse runs in generations, grandparents that were alcoholics, my mil is a heavy smoker, dispute all the warnings, bil is heavy into abusing semi legal substance, that he mixes with alcohol, his impairment is not only disorderly, but also inappropriate, he chooses to display paraphernalia in front of everyone. His teenage children are already abusing the same substance, and mixing the pill department. My reluctance to spend time with them, in fear of my own children picking up on a drug habit is viewed as open war letter, for not letting the “cousins see each other”.
Finally, any socializing between unBPDh and his family leads to blow ups. If I’m there, with him, I’m subjected to heavy whip lash of emotional abuse from them, where he is acting as an active member, airing loundry from our finances to the fact that his wife is getting older, and he should either get a lover or switch to having a wife, half of my age. Due to lack of any! Achievements on the side of his family, my d15 is also a favourite topic. He professional sports career is being minimized and she is told by the entire clan, tht she will make one hell of glamorized stripper with a pedegree.
If I choose not to attend, I’m the topic that is being discussed, and as a result I’m being emotionally tortured by my uBPDh, for weeks. Things like “keep a secret from your wife” is a favourite past time.
In conclusion, only heavy manipulation on my part and effort not to see them is keeping this derivation more or less stable. I can probably deal with his BPDish behaviours, however when you add his foo into the mix, it becomes toxic.
I look up to you, Ff for guidance and use you as an example. How do you prevent your wife from bringing her foo issues into your own family?

[formflier]

Broadly speaking... .I try to keep as much "separation" between my family and her FOO as possible.  

We don't attend church together... .so... value discussions are separate.

I am likely "over obvious" about portraying different values... .consistently.

When the crazy shows up, I try to to get crazy with it... .and just deal with it and shoo it back out the front door.  With a healthy dose of "we don't do that in this family"

For instance.  My oldest nephew hasn't been in my house in a couple of years.  (I kicked him out for "vaping"... .and some associated lying.  At the time he was 17. ) 

He now tells everyone "I hate him" and that's why he doesn't come over.  My kids have approached me about it... and I ask them why they believe he doesn't come over.

"Because he doesn't want to apologize to you and listen to you explain the house rules."  (all I have to say is "yep")

I don't do "negotiated apologies"  He was able to get himself over here by himself and do the vape thing... he can get himself over here to apologize.  I don't chase people for apologies.

I have seen him since then at other places and I've been cordial... made a point to greet him and wish him well.

I've not directed my kids to explain things to my nephew... .but my understanding is they have.  My understanding is he laughed nervously at the thought of having to come apologize to me directly.

My SIL is way worse (orders of magnitude) worse than my wife.  To my knowledge she has had three divorces and there are a couple of relationships that may have been marriages... or may not have been.

2 nephews and a niece.  1 nephew ruined... .1 is up in the air and the niece moved out to live full time with her Dad a couple of years ago... .very minimal contact with her mom.

Example of SIL "teaching" her daughter a lesson.  They are constantly moving to new rental homes.  So... .a couple of years ago SIl takes my niece to a new three bedroom house.  SIL points to one room and says that's going to be my room.  Another room was pointed out to me one nephews.  Another room for another nephew.

What was being "set up" was for the niece to grip and complain about how unfair things were... .then BPD doom would descend on her.

Instead... .she moved out.  My wife got involved to try to get her to move back in with SIL... and my wife got rejected as well.  

Listening to the FOO explain why she doesn't live with her Mom anymore is interesting... .of course... it has nothing to do with her Mom.

Sigh.

FF

[formflier]

Today is an example of limited FOO involvement.

S10 had a doctor appointment this afternoon that was made by my wife.  She made it when I couldn't take him (without asking me first).

I tried to move my appointment that was in the way but couldn't, so I was able to get S10 in to doctor early.

I emailed my wife and S10 teacher about picking him up from school.

My wife see's this email at some point and sends some BPDish emails and called me with some demands.  Honestly I was having a hard time hearing her.

It appeared my wife was pissed that I had moved an appointment without her permission and that her parents would waste a trip.

I validated that would be horrible to experience yet my plan was to text when done at doctor.

After done I texted MIL and FIL and let them know there was no need to pick him up for appointment.  Thanked them for willingness.

They responded OK.

That's about the extent of our contact.


FF

[Enabler]

Just watched a wonderful film called Glass Castle on Netflix... .my gosh, it has FOO and BPD dysfunction all over it. I’m sorry this is a bit of a hijack but it encapsulates the trickle down anxieties that a messed up FOO have on their offspring... .generation by generation.